1957 Cardellino 73cc dual crank shaft seals

[canuck750]

The parts book shows a single seal in the crank case located behind the roller bearing to seal the crankshaft. My engine has two seals in this location and the seal kit I bought only contains one seal and its thicker. The seals I am after are for the crankshaft, measure 23.3mm OD x 4.19mm thick and the ID matches the crankshaft, 15 mm.

Anyone familiar with this double row of seals configuration? 

[Phil Skinner]

Hi there, If I have understood you correctly you want to put two seals again. Am I correct? You say the single seal in the kit is wider than the seals you took out but you don’t give the dimensions. The parts book only shows one seal and the seal kit only has one. The questions are,  why were two seals fitted and why can’t you revert to the correct set up of just one? The seal housing in the photo looks like it has been damaged. Is the case and the reason why two seals were fitted? Is there a wear groove on the crankshaft that coincides with the standard single seal sealing lip? Maybe this is why two seals were fitted. Although I initially ran my engine with the old seal in place I did replace it when I had the casings separated to replace the gear cluster. The old one was rock hard. Hope this helps a bit and I’m sure with a bit of investigation you will get to the bottom of your dilemma.  Cheers Phil

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[canuck750]

The parts book shows a single seal in the crank case located behind the roller bearing to seal the crankshaft. 

Looks like a previous owner carried out some complex fixes, 1st off the crank shaft is not 15mm diameter, it has been ground down to  accept a bearing with a 14.68 mm inside diameter, then the seal recess has been modified with two welded in spacers (like washers), very well done welding job. The roller bearing sits snug to the race that remains on the crankshaft, even with heat this race does not want to budge so it will remain, the bearing is OK. Now I have to try and find a pair of rubber seals like were on it, they need replacement. The engine case recess that accepts the bearing is fine, the roller will fit snug to the case once the case is heated.

If I can not find the seals I can either machine out the welded in spacers or replace this half of the engine with another unmolested one.

If only motorcycles could talk the tales they could tell of past injuries.

[Phil Skinner]

Wow, what a lot of work done by a previous owner. I would guess that whoever it was chose seals that are readily available so you should be able to return it to its modified state. As you say “if only they could talk.” Here a some photos of the underside of the frame of mine along with the gear cluster. It took some work to get the footrest support and stand hinge points all back in line and welded up. As for the gearbox, I did wonder why the Mellior gear change mechanism was so excessively worn. However, that was all explained when I opened up the crankcases to find out why it jumped out of first and second gears. It is all fixed now and I went for a 10km ride this morning. Performance is ok in first and second but third is really for cruising on level roads as any slight incline soon has you searching for second. Let us know how you get on. Cheers Phil

 

From: guzzi-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:guzzi-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of canuck750

Sent: 26 May 2020 19:24
To: Guzzi Singles

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[canuck750]

On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 7:57:14 PM UTC-6, canuck750 wrote:

Wow Phil, that Cardellino had a rough life! They are tough little buggers and most probably suffered decades of abuse. 

[canuck750]

 My engine has two seals in this location and the seal kit I bought only contains one seal and its thicker.

I tried two large seal distributor warehouses in town, Western Canada is oil country and we have plenty of specialty suppliers, I took in the seal I have, neither distributor has anything close in any of their suppliers, The closest I can find is 15mm ID, x 23mm OD, x 5mm, the seals I need are 14.75 ID, 23mm OD x  4.5mm.

I am thinking my best bet is getting a good crank case half and an unmolested crankshaft, chasing this bodge is probably a dead end, If anyone has a good 73cc Cardellino crankshaft and a engine case for the roller bearing side please let me know.

Bringing this little Cardellino engine back to health is starting to feel like the odyssey I went on with my 1978 Moto Morini 500, the previous owner had overbored the cylinders then tried to compensate with custom rings from a Mitsubish fork lift, followed by a mess of a crankcase with incorrect seals, thrashed crank etc.....JUNK! I just hate bodges!!

[canuck750]

My engine …...

Can anyone confirm if the 65cc and 73cc crankshaft assembly is the same? The parts manuals have the same part number for the 65cc and 73cc crankshaft assembly - 36023 ter

The crankcase half with the roller bearing (narrower half with the single head stud) have different numbers, 65cc - 36553 and the 73cc 36620, can anyone confirm if these are interchangeable? 

[Mac Dennis]

I don’t think it’s about abuse but real life use. These little bikes were made for real transportation, not toys. When they did break they had to be fixed or you might have a long walk to your job. 

It would be interesting to know just how many miles are on some of these bike. My ‘52 Guzzino has a hole worn in the brake paddle!

In Germany Kreidler would give you a gold pin for going 100k km on their 50s.

 

Mac 

On Tue, May 26, 2020, at 2:31 PM, canuck750 wrote:

On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 7:57:14 PM UTC-6, canuck750 wrote:

Wow Phil, that Cardellino had a rough life! They are tough little buggers and most probably suffered decades of abuse. 

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  Mac Dennis

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[Mac Dennis]

I think there are some half cases on eBay.it now.

Mac

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[canuck750]

On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 7:57:14 PM UTC-6, canuck750 wrote:

The parts book shows a single seal in the crank case located behind the roller bearing to seal the crankshaft.

I found what appears to be a decent pair of cases for a reasonable price on Ebay Italy. Another seal shop came up with a seal that may work, it has an inner diameter less than 15mm, about 14.8 but it is taller, about 6mm, I may need to make a mandrel and trim down the depth, seal shop says they do this occasionally in their small lathe. hopefully I can just replace the case and retain the ground down crank shaft