Does anyone here Box? Do Guided Chaos principles or techniques help?

[HerbMartin]

Does anyone here Box?

Do Guided Chaos principles or techniques help with boxing?

Please, I understand that boxing is a sport with severe rules and
limitations, and that Guided Chaos is primarily about surviving a life
threatening attack where there are literally no rules, but there are
some good reasons for the question never the less.

1) Boxing allows us to go up against a fully resisting opponent --
within the limitation of the rules you can test techniques against
someone actively trying to hurt you.

2) If the principles or techniques are useful in boxing then that is
reason enough to make the attempt, but it will also allow those
principles and techniques (those that make sense in the boxing
environment) to be practiced at full speed.

3) Most martial arts fail when subjected to the 'rules' of other
martial arts, and many fail when removed from the context of their own
rules such as when meeting the reality of the street -- showing that
an art works across style lines -- even partially -- is good evidence
of its general efficacy and real world applicability.

Part of my motivation here is obvious, but I also really want to learn
more about Guided Chaos, even though my financial reality is that
unless one of the trainers gets to Austin, Houston, or elsewhere
nearby in Texas it might be a while before I get any hands on
training.

I am a Systema and AMOK! guy, who has also studied Tai Chi (and read
the AttackProof books); right now I box because it is a great fitness
workout, helps with my speed & combat reflexes, and actually a lot of
fun -- besides being CHEAP for classes six days a week. <grin>

Systema 'works' for boxing in the sense that the four principles of
Systema are essential principles of boxing (also true for Systema and
BJJ): Relaxing, Breathing, Moving, and Maintaining Form are the
foundation of Systema and directly applicable to boxing. And of
course the Systema methods of attack by disrupting your opponents'
ability to do these things, works as well.

The sometimes 'fifth principle' of Systema, HITTING REALLY HARD, is of
course applicable as well. <big grin>

There are certain Systema techniques -- in the sense that Systema HAS
ANY 'techniques' -- that both work in boxing and are legal there as
well.

So, do any of you train boxing, or can any of you help figure out what
Guided Chaos ideas might work and be practiced while boxing....?

My first guess is that the balance work and the hitting with dropping
energy should be applicable and useful.

--
Herb Martin

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[Kevin]

Herb,

Those of us in GC always welcome questions and contribution from
others. Within GC, GM Perkins teach Combat Boxing which for a simple
explanation is boxing that is meant to destroy limbs and organs but is
generally involves less then lethal techniques. Many GC students here
in NY have a boxing background. I do not so maybe so one else can
contrast the similarities and differences for you.

> Do Guided Chaos principles or techniques help with boxing?

GC Principles help no matter what your background is. Because by
learning the principles it can enhance whatever your style or even if
you do not practice martial arts it will help your balance. The
mental conditioning will help you avoid becoming a victim.

> 1) Boxing allows us to go up against a fully resisting opponent --
> within the limitation of the rules you can test techniques against
> someone actively trying to hurt you.

> 2) If the principles or techniques are useful in boxing then that is
> reason enough to make the attempt, but it will also allow those
> principles and techniques (those that make sense in the boxing
> environment) to be practiced at full speed.

> 3) Most martial arts fail when subjected to the 'rules' of other
> martial arts, and many fail when removed from the context of their own
> rules such as when meeting the reality of the street -- showing that
> an art works across style lines -- even partially -- is good evidence
> of its general efficacy and real world applicability.

Most of us in GC avoid such matches or tests because we do not believe
in the validity of them. Many people look at this answer as BS or an
excuse but what does that prove. If a boxer is challenging me in a
sparring setup then I assume we are playing with rules that in itself
is in conflict with one of the unwritten GC principles which is
anything goes. Now that boxer may be able to dominate me in a
sparring match but that does not have any bearing on the outcome of a
real actual fight between me and that same boxer.

GM Perkins teaches that in a real fight for your life it will probably
last for no more then 2 to 5 seconds. So to contrast the sparring
match versus the real world fight, in the sparing match since I am
being less then lethal and especially if the boxer is stronger or
quicker then me he will be able to score more points or land more
blows and maybe even knock me out but in the real world fight if I hit
him and make him even flinch on my strike I keep flowing from one
strike to the next which hopefully will end with my adversary not
being able to continue his battle. Now I am not saying that the boxer
can't knock me out or kill me in a real fight because anything can
happen that is why we are taught to not mess around and end the
encounter ASAP but in a real fight I am not being held back by any
rules that may be more advantageous to my adversary.

GM Perkins and the other Masters will sometimes demonstrate what to do
against different techniques that a boxer, MMA, Karate or Taekwondo
practitioner will use because in our classes we have people very
skilled and some of them are instructors in those arts. However, GC
principles have been tested where it really counts on the streets of
US cities by police officers and normal everyday citizens and in war
zones across the world.

>
> Part of my motivation here is obvious, but I also really want to learn
> more about Guided Chaos, even though my financial reality is that
> unless one of the trainers gets to Austin, Houston, or elsewhere
> nearby in Texas it might be a while before I get any hands on
> training.

I am hoping to make it down to Austin or Houston sometime this summer
and if so I would enjoy meeting with you and getting together to
exchange knowledge. I will let you know if and when I will be there.

> My first guess is that the balance work and the hitting with dropping
> energy should be applicable and useful.

Balance is always useful no matter what you are describing even if you
are talking about trying to fit the multiple aspects of your life in a
24 hour period. However, in fighting we find that balance is the
foundation of real fighting because for most of us (there are always
exceptions) to hit your adversary effectively you have to have balance
to do so and if I can disrupt your balance then I have the advantage.
You have to have balance to drop effectively.

I am not familiar with Systema at least one of the GC instructors use
to practice that art and maybe they will add their opinion. I studied
Tai Chi before and while I feel my instructor at the time was great
but he was lacking the ability to get many us of to improve our
balance.

[Ken F.]

Herb, it'll definitely help but it's still totally and completely
different as you've pointed out. It'll also take a while because at
full speed you need to have drilled enough that it's second nature.
It's mostly different because as alive, skilled and hard hitting as an
exceptional boxer is...they are still dueling.

Our principles kick in where boxing completly breaks down...in the
clinch. Where they usually hold or even start grappling is where we
remain balanced, unified, flowing and sensitive. Trust me, no matter
how we record, you can't see(realize) any of this on video.

A lot of what you do in Systema is similar to GC, yet very different.
As for dealing with full resistance, you will get more than your fair
share of this. Intentionally because no matter what speed, no
movements are preordained or patterned and this is why we can work
with people of all different backgrounds and quickly adapt to their
movements while in touching range.

Unintentionally because VERY often people's proprioception gets thrown
off in the flow and they revert back to whatever movements their
instincts tell them is necessary to survive. This could be extreme
tightness or even lashing out at you at full speed.Happens all the
time but the principles allow you to deal with it.

My take on boxing or even grappling is that while I respect them as
legitimate fighting skills, I'm not worried about them. This is the
case because I'm not stupid enough to stand in front of someone in a
dueling manner, which is what really allows most sportive techniques
to work.

[HerbMartin]

On Apr 16, 6:42 pm, "Ken F." <poetic2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Herb, it'll definitely help but it's still totally and completely
> different as you've pointed out. It'll also take a while because at
> full speed you need to have drilled enough that it's second nature.
> It's mostly different because as alive, skilled and hard hitting as an
> exceptional boxer is...they are still dueling.

Right, boxing is dueling (in the competition sense of the word which)
so before we move on to more important things (than my seed question)
let me be clear again, that in the original question I just wanted to
USE SOME of Guided Chaos to box better,

So be assured, I am NOT trying to compare one to the other but was
rather merely looking for ways to use (and maybe even practice Guided
Chaos within the limitations of boxing.

> Our principles kick in where boxing completly breaks down...in the
> clinch. Where they usually hold or even start grappling is where we

> remain balanced, unified, flowing and sensitive. ..


But this is part of the real issue with trying to learn Guided Chaos
from a video or (worse) from a book. If you must experience it -- and
I believe you -- then that just isn't going to be conveyable remotely.


It may not be obvious, but boxers are trained to do this TYPE of work
and I do NOT mean to say they are trained to do it correctly nor even
anything LIKE GUIDED CHAOS, merely that this is a PART of the skill
set a boxer is expected to have.

So again, NOT comparing this to that, but rather saying Guided Chaos
might be a superior method of training a boxer to work in the
clinch.....

If a boxer trained in Guided Chaos can excel in the clinch with little
boxing training then the boxers (and boxing trainers) are going to
want to learn
to do that too.

That would be a good thing for Guided Chaos.

As far as I can determine -- and it is certainly true for me
personally -- the biggest problem with Guided Chaos is the lack of
trainers and training partners in many areas of the country (or
world?).

See what you say below about "experiencing" it....

> ,,,Trust me, no matter

> how we record, you can't see(realize) any of this on video.

Then there is a another place where Guided Chaos would pay off even
with the limitation of the rules of boxing.

> A lot of what you do in Systema is similar to GC, yet very different.
> As for dealing with full resistance, you will get more than your fair
> share of this. Intentionally because no matter what speed, no
> movements are preordained or patterned and this is why we can work
> with people of all different backgrounds and quickly adapt to their
> movements while in touching range.

Part of the reason that I even mentioned Systema was that in the past
the Attackproof web site had a RECOMMENDATION (I believe from GM
Perkins, but presumably representing his ideas) that those who cannot
obtain Guided Chaos training would benefit from Systema (or even Tai
Chi to a lesser extent) training.

I just looked, and that recommendation is not found on the site
(according to a focused Google search), the closest thing is a
comparison with Systema which mentions some of the weaknesses of
Systema (some of which I at least partically agree are valid):

http://attackproof.com/90-systema-jkd-wing-tsun.html

> Unintentionally because VERY often people's proprioception gets thrown
> off in the flow and they revert back to whatever movements their
> instincts tell them is necessary to survive. This could be extreme
> tightness or even lashing out at you at full speed.Happens all the
> time but the principles allow you to deal with it.

Sure, people will only use in combat those techniques the 'know' will
work -- whether that knowledge is accurate or not, they will revert to
and use what has worked for them in the past -- even if that technique
only worked in a contrived martial arts class or in some other (e.g.,
sports) context which might not be sufficiently similar to be
applicablein the current encounter....

> My take on boxing or even grappling is that while I respect them as
> legitimate fighting skills, I'm not worried about them. This is the
> case because I'm not stupid enough to stand in front of someone in a
> dueling manner, which is what really allows most sportive techniques
> to work.

Not to criticize you at all but to CONFIRM what you are saying here:
It is absolutely shocking how many people who "know" this simple rule
will do it anyway:

Stand RIGHT THERE in front of the guy who is hitting (or even
stabbing or shooting) them.

Boxers ARE also taught not to do this (really, constantly).

Again, not comparing, but making your point...just today I was at a
boxing class going mostly again beginners (less experienced than
myself but that isn't necessarily saying much) and ractically every
single one of them would STAND IN THE POCKET right in front of me and
let me just jab them constantly.

This was in spite of their training and in spite of the fact that both
the instructor (who would come by periodically) and even myself kept
telling them to GET OUT OF THAT SPOT.

This was not competitive, I wasn't trying to "win" but rather to
practice myself and help them practice and learn so I was going slow
(er and slower), helping most of them to move out of MY POCKET.

That spot (The Pocket) was mine because I have really long arms,
longer than all these novices, and I can reach them before they can
reach me, so I can hit them while they cannot even reach me if they
stay right there in that sport.

In boxing, even though it is "dueling" in the competition sense,
boxers are NOT supposed to fight "fair" -- this doesn't mean fighting
dirty or cheating, but it does mean to avoid fighting the other
boxer's fight -- instead you MOVE, you get OFFLINE, to you work your
own advantages and avoid his strengths while seeking his weaknesses.

Funniest thing is one we got these guys to fade, circle, or duck under
to work around my jab, practically every one of them would RETREAT
BACK THROUGH that pocket AGAIN as soon as their newly found movement
was blocked.

They had already run the gauntlet but they would retreat back through
that "kill zone" instead of continuing to circle or backing away in a
different direction, or just continuing the attack.

Weird huh?

Just a funny observation, but boxers are NOT supposed to duel in the
sense of fencers standing on a runway with no lateral movement.



Boxers are supposed to use every (legal) advantage they can find.


The more advanced boxers immediately noticed something about my
punching (from Systema but they didn't know that) when were were slow
sparring:

The comment was: "That old man isn't punching any faster or harder
but all his punches are HEAVY."

Systema teaches how to punch deep and destructively without having to
commit weight (which can be used too but isn't necessary) or needing
long distance nor even high speed.

Thanks guys for considering either the original question or this
natural evolution of the discussion....

Anyone who gets near Austin or Houston, please call or email me to get
together -- I really want to work with someone who can get me started
right....

--
Herb
If I can't die laughing, I am not gonna die at all.

[Ari]

Only got time for a few notes (gotta get to class!):

1) NABO champ Doug Gray trained a lot with John, both for pure GC and
to improve his boxing. The GC influence is evident in aspects of his
boxing style, e.g. the ability to throw devastating shots from
unexpected/unconventional angles, and to keep balance to execute
whatever he needs from unlikely positions. He's also, of course,
incredibly loose and sensitive, but most champions are naturally. Doug
would have been a great boxer even without ever meeting John, but he
acknowledges John helped him greatly, and further that what John
teaches is what is needed in REALITY, which is far different from the
ring.

2) We have at least one GC instructor who is also a boxing trainer,
and he incorporates GC principles into his boxing classes and private
lessons.

3) Practicing the GC exercises will most definitely help your boxing.
Being looser, better balanced, more sensitive (both tactiley and
visually, as well as internally) and able to subtley get your whole
body behind everything can only help in any endeavor.

4) John's Combat Boxing is basically doing GC but with constantly
closed fists. It goes far beyond normal boxing in that "anything goes"
as long as you keep your fists closed. Hitting with all parts of the
fist to all parts of the body at all distances--very nasty, yet far
less "final" than pure GC, which dispenses with the closed fist
limitation.

5) Hitting with bare fists is very different from hitting with gloves--
very different feel, mechanics and effects. You can train to become an
expert at hitting people with gloves, or at hitting people bare-
handed. If you split your time between both, if you put in enough time
and energy, you'll probably be pretty good at both, but you have to
feel the difference within yourself. . . .

6) Standard boxing training with not do much for your GC. A big
problem with the boxing training paradigm as I see it (and one reason
why your less experienced training partners stay in the pocket despite
being told not to) is that it's designed to quickly attrit the weaker
links and allow only the natural champs to thrive. One reason why slow
contact flow (and slow "sparring" in Systema) is critical is to give
the subconscious a chance to grasp the effectiveness and subtleties of
good movement without being blocked or distracted by any level of ego-
based fear/stress. Boxing sparring, even done "slowly," is designed to
poke the student's fear buttons, even if he "knows" he won't get hurt
badly. Those with the right mindset (gained via early experiences or
whatever) grit their teeth and get through it naturally, while others
get too messed up in the head to learn much. Hence, the trainers
quickly see who has the potential to be a champ with minimal
additional work.

GC, on the other hand, seeks to help EVERYONE to improve, no matter
how natural or not. John commented to me once that neither he nor I
are naturals, so we need to work harder to keep up with the naturals
in class (of whom there are many). Having the naturals there forces us
"geeks" to constantly improve and find ways to negate those natural
attributes (mental and physical). Truly slow, ego-free, free-form
movement as in Contact Flow will get people moving well faster, and
with progressive training, will allow them to translate that good
movement to ever more challenging situations (i.e. faster/harder).

And trust me, as Contact Flow gets progressively faster and more
combative, it's much more effective "resistance" training than boxing
sparring.

So, in short, GC will help your boxing, but the reverse probably won't
apply.

I was in the Houston area on business during first half of 2009. I'll
likely be back there again sometime this year. I always announce such
trips on this forum. Keep your eyes peeled.

[HerbMartin]

Thanks for the great reply, Ari....

On Apr 17, 8:44 am, Ari <arikandel2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Only got time for a few notes (gotta get to class!):
>
> 1) NABO champ Doug Gray trained a lot with John, both for pure GC and
> to improve his boxing. The GC influence is evident in aspects of his
> boxing style, e.g. the ability to throw devastating shots from
> unexpected/unconventional angles, and to keep balance to execute

> whatever he needs from unlikely positions. ...

I'll try to find some video of one of his fights or something...

> 2) We have at least one GC instructor who is also a boxing trainer,
> and he incorporates GC principles into his boxing classes and private
> lessons.

That would be very interesting to attend as well.

> 3) Practicing the GC exercises will most definitely help your boxing.
> Being looser, better balanced, more sensitive (both tactiley and
> visually, as well as internally) and able to subtley get your whole
> body behind everything can only help in any endeavor.

That was something I suspected and would greatly like to train (for
both boxing and combat.)

> 5) Hitting with bare fists is very different from hitting with gloves--
> very different feel, mechanics and effects. You can train to become an
> expert at hitting people with gloves, or at hitting people bare-
> handed. If you split your time between both, if you put in enough time
> and energy, you'll probably be pretty good at both, but you have to
> feel the difference within yourself. . . .

Yes, this is why so many boxers break their hands when punching
without
gloves (e.g., in street fights) -- there's even a name for it in
medical circles,
the "pugilist's fracture" of the 4th or 5th metacarpal. Tyson knocked
some
guy out on the street and did it to himself.

> 6) Standard boxing training with not do much for your GC. A big

Didn't much expect that it would -- that is "STANDARD boxing training"
but if one could get the fundamentals of Guided Chaos and then use
then constantly while boxing that would seem a good way to go.

This (latter) is pretty much what I do with Systema vis a vis boxing.
The
young guys can't figure out how a 57 year old guy with bad knees and
chronic generalized arthritis can keep going even with the young
advanced
amateurs and even the pros during bag punching drills.

The answer is in that relaxation and breathing -- relaxation lets us
use
less oxygen (and even get more speed and power) while breathing
correctly even BEFORE we have a deficit allows us to replenish at a
higher work rate and then to also recover faster when (round) breaks
arrive.

> problem with the boxing training paradigm as I see it (and one reason
> why your less experienced training partners stay in the pocket despite
> being told not to) is that it's designed to quickly attrit the weaker
> links and allow only the natural champs to thrive.

Not sure I agree with this totally because most of the guys I am
talking
about are not going to become "fighters" but are being encourage to
give
up that behavior and learn the same things the naturals catch onto
quickly.

BUT your point is well taken -- it doesn't change the idea that this
might
be the effect even initially for some new boxers or in some other gyms
with some other trainers. (My boxing coach is a strange guy, but he
definitely TEACHES boxing and definitely PROTECTS his students from
getting hurt or further development of bad habits.)

> One reason why slow
> contact flow (and slow "sparring" in Systema) is critical is to give
> the subconscious a chance to grasp the effectiveness and subtleties of
> good movement without being blocked or distracted by any level of ego-
> based fear/stress.

Yes, that is what is supposed to be going on in the (specific) case I
was
referencing from this week.

I call this "Shadow Sparring" -- two guys shadow boxing TOGETHER
instead
of separately. Coach is consistently insisting that the boxers GO
SLOW,
GO SLOWER, get the details and movements right rather than
"fight" (until
they have the skills.)

And as you say, there are many levels to this, from NO CONTACT and
WIDE
SPACING, all the way up to (and beyond) "put in your mouth piece" and
learn
to take some controlled shots -- it blends from there right on into
full force
sparring with the gear and all.

> Boxing sparring, even done "slowly," is designed to
> poke the student's fear buttons, even if he "knows" he won't get hurt
> badly. Those with the right mindset (gained via early experiences or
> whatever) grit their teeth and get through it naturally, while others
> get too messed up in the head to learn much. Hence, the trainers
> quickly see who has the potential to be a champ with minimal
> additional work.

This is probably the part I was disagreeing with the most, as in our
gym
with our coach, the constant emphasis is on slowing it down enough
to AVOID kicking in the fear reflexes UNTIL the correct movements can
be learned.

There was a thread on SaddoBoxing.com (forums) about this subject
when one of the boxers asked about (himself) developing a Flinch
Response and how to overcome that -- so based on the number of
answers that came down to "slow it WAY down" until you can internalize
the correct movements there are a lot of other boxing gyms and coaches
that understand this issue and the fix.

> GC, on the other hand, seeks to help EVERYONE to improve, no matter
> how natural or not. John commented to me once that neither he nor I
> are naturals, so we need to work harder to keep up with the naturals
> in class (of whom there are many). Having the naturals there forces us
> "geeks" to constantly improve and find ways to negate those natural
> attributes (mental and physical). Truly slow, ego-free, free-form
> movement as in Contact Flow will get people moving well faster, and
> with progressive training, will allow them to translate that good
> movement to ever more challenging situations (i.e. faster/harder).

That's pretty cool -- one of the (at least partially valid) criticisms
of
Systema is that Vlad (Vladimir Vasiliev) is just an amazing athlete by
any standards and in any physical context -- he is a natural. And
HIS teacher, Mikhail Ryabko was trained pretty much FROM BIRTH
(literally.)

He and most of the advanced Russians were already HIGHLY SELECTED
as those who were in Spetsnaz AND/OR those who could learn Systema
quickly/effectively.

It is possible to see many Systema students and even some instructors
who are stuck at some plateau level -- even though they still train
regularly.

Not to say it doesn't work, or this cannot be overcome, but the issue
is
real for SOME people.

> And trust me, as Contact Flow gets progressively faster and more
> combative, it's much more effective "resistance" training than boxing
> sparring.

No question about "how long" can ever be formulated so it or the
answer
makes sense but is it possible to get some feel for how long Guided
Chaos takes (with regular but not religious training) before
significant
improvement in combat effectiveness is available to the new student?

Aikido is notorious for being highly worthless through years of
beginning
training -- and remaining that way for those who never learn how to
generalize
it to combat situations even though they have advanced belts.

Most Tai Chi (today) isn't even done from a MARTIAL perspective. (My
Tai Chi instructor is however my Systema instructor also, and he has
always
taught Martial Tai Chi, not JUST pretty dance moves.)

> So, in short, GC will help your boxing, but the reverse probably won't
> apply.

Figure that.

> I was in the Houston area on business during first half of 2009. I'll
> likely be back there again sometime this year. I always announce such
> trips on this forum. Keep your eyes peeled.

Even though I live in Austin, my daughter (and grand kids) live in the
Houston
area and if you ever have time there, I will make a point of arranging
a visit --
they are less than 4 hours away.

The reality is that we are getting Tom Sotis (AMOK!) and some of the
Sr.
Systema guys (Vlad, Sonny Puzikas [seen on Deadliest Warrior], Kevin
Secours, Martin Wheeler,etc) in the Austin-Dallas-Houston area several
times (each) each year

...but no Guided Chaos instructors have been around here to my
knowledge

There is a market. Vlad had 80 or so Systema students for a weekend
here in Austin last year, Tom Sotis gets a good group 2-3 times each
year,
etc.

[Ken F.]

Herb, about the time issue; it will take anywhere from 6 months to 2
years imo to be able to use Guided Chaos principles in other
disciplines. That boxing coach Ari refers to got his first degree in 6
months of making every class because he worked in the same gym. Yet
and still that is unheard of but perhaps the boxing facilitated this
to some degree.

A fight is indicated as a duel when fighters are relying primarily on
eye-hand coordination. In reality, the way GC is trained, once contact
is made the fight is dictated by sense of touch and subcortical
vision. Contact and flow are not to be broken until the other fighter
is unbalanced, unconscious or controlled without further risk in some
manner. It's like grappling without any holding, if that makes any
sense. All this is by design so that the physically inferior can
survive.

You're right about guys becoming fixated on fighting in the pocket
though. In MMA you see this and it's why certain fighters can make a
living off of takedowns, which is easily accomplished when this
happens.

Since Ari is likely coming to your locale I'll hand this over to him.
Although he may not look the part Ari is highly capable and a superb
instructor. It would be perfect if you got him and Kevin down there at
the same time.

[HerbMartin]

On Apr 18, 6:15 pm, "Ken F." <poetic2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Herb, about the time issue; it will take anywhere from 6 months to 2
> years imo to be able to use Guided Chaos principles in other
> disciplines. That boxing coach Ari refers to got his first degree in 6
> months of making every class because he worked in the same gym. Yet
> and still that is unheard of but perhaps the boxing facilitated this
> to some degree.

So for most people, with some seriousness, say a 2-3 times per week,
and not being naturals, it's going to be about 2 years for them to see
serious results, right?

> A fight is indicated as a duel when fighters are relying primarily on
> eye-hand coordination. In reality, the way GC is trained, once contact
> is made the fight is dictated by sense of touch and subcortical
> vision. Contact and flow are not to be broken until the other fighter
> is unbalanced, unconscious or controlled without further risk in some

> manner. ...

That is a different definition than I was using for a duel.

> ...It's like grappling without any holding, if that makes any

> sense. All this is by design so that the physically inferior can
> survive.

That makes sense to me (as far as I truly understand it) as something
akin to sticky hands Tai Chi when done as Martial or Combat Tai Chi.

I don't (and can't) know how different Contact Flow is to what my
Systema & Tai Chi instructor and I practice as sticky hands, but I am
imagining there is some similarity, at least superficially -- we
strike with any surface, kick, unbalance, joint lock, throw etc --
most of the time we don't take these moves to "finish" but we get
close enough to it so that both participants KNOW what works and what
doesn't. We do this with Systema level strikes since both of us (and
a couple of the other experienced students) can absorb or tolerate
that level of strike without injury or ideally without even losing
balance or position..

[If you don't know about Systema, we not only train to hit really hard
-- it is part of what Systema is known for doing -- but also to accept
those strikes at a high level of force -- the boxers in my gym are a
bit surprised to find that I can roll or even just absorb most strikes
that they expect will do real damage.]

> You're right about guys becoming fixated on fighting in the pocket
> though. In MMA you see this and it's why certain fighters can make a
> living off of takedowns, which is easily accomplished when this
> happens.

Yesterday (Saturday Apr 16th) our combatives group* had it's quarterly
get together here near Austin, and I saw a number of the participants
who would freeze out there (at least in the beginning) or else just
back pedal straight to the rear which is frequently just as bad.

* The Central Texas Warrior Talkers is a semi-formal group of folks
who met through the WarriorTalk forums, and train in dealing with
armed attackers, mostly defense against pistol and knife attack. The
meeting thread is here: http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=65360

[Guided Chaos might like to approach Gabe (Suarez) about a sub-forum
on this excellent site -- the folks there are the real deal.]

Yesterday, we worked mostly where the attacker was already coming with
the knife attack, had a pistol already drawn, or was drawing (first)
with live Airsoft pistols so that you know if you have been shot or if
you have been able to get shots on the attacker. (Also using those
Nok knife training blades I described earlier.)

Practiced "getting off the X", getting distance, accessing (our own
weapons), and countering.

Nothing beats knowing if a technique will work or not.

> Since Ari is likely coming to your locale I'll hand this over to him.
> Although he may not look the part Ari is highly capable and a superb
> instructor. It would be perfect if you got him and Kevin down there at
> the same time.

That will be great -- but if any of you with some skills get nearby I
would
love to meet and learn from you even if you are not yet an
instructor....

--
HerbM

[Ken F.]

Yep, going to class at least once a wk and doing tons of solo training
would get the average person there in about two years.

Sticky Hands is very similar to Contact Flow but I need to point out
something very important. If you've mastered the principles, throws
and locks are not happening. You practically have to achieve 5th
degree or higher to get that off on someone, specifically someone else
trained within the art.

I'm very familiar with Systema. They have very similar ideas on
looseness and striking as ourselves. The executions are different
because in Systema the yielding movements are far more gross and they
focus less on fluid rooting and sensitivity than we do. They crush us
in marketing though.

[mark]

The only way someone can throw you is if they can break your balance.
The seat of a mans/womans power is his /her back or to be more
specific core strength.

I would say if anybody wants an anti throwing exercise,the hackeysack
I believe is king.
You are training your mid section in a dynamic fashion,that mimics
real life movements whilst standing.
Exactly what your body was designed to do.

Other benefits are changing balance points,kicks,trips,strikes ect.
Improved native american ground fighting -more powerful kicks,smoother
movements.
Doing 15-20 mins two or three times a week will build a powerful core
aswell as improved balance.
Nobody will throw you-ever.

Mark;).

[Joe T]

Remember we are dealing with motion and our bodies ability to deal
with the impact of strikes. Without good hand development we tend to
fall into the possibility of a "pugilist's fracture". I tend to see
things from a Artist perspective, the simpler it is the greatest
impact it tends to have.

If you look at the hand like a "bag" and accept that the bones will
only reach a certain size within that bag, we can realize that the
muscles are capable of being the "packing" for the bones. Since the
skin or the bag can stretch the importance of proper muscle
development within the hand/wrist/forearm can be appreciated.
Especially when dealing with Combat Boxing principles that use this
part of the arms.

"When you have a rock or a hammer in your hand, you do not need to hit
someone that hard to get results!"

Slambag and Horseshoe training are beneficial to this type of
development. Traditional Makiwara (?) and hard knuckle training can
cause damage as you age, arthritis is a great example. We are trying
to find the balance of maximizing our Self Defense within a time-frame
that allows us to continue some sort of normal life, adapting to our
environment is the human animals greatest trait.

On another note. Systema hits with tremendous power yes, but it is
mostly centrifugal energy (like a baseball bat swing). You need more
space to create it sometimes. GC principles embrace the possibility
that we might be ambushed and not have the space to create such
energy.

Dropping Power plays a tremendous role in compensating for that space,
so focus on your balance exercises.

jt3

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/guided-chaos-forum?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[HerbMartin]

On Apr 21, 9:45 am, Joe T <troylead...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Remember we are dealing with motion and our bodies ability to deal
> with the impact of strikes.  Without good hand development we tend to
> fall into the possibility of a "pugilist's fracture".  I tend to see
> things from a Artist perspective, the simpler it is the greatest
> impact it tends to have.

> ...

While this is true to (at least) some extent, I believe it is not at
the heart of most pugilist fractures: Most of the trouble comes from
a combination of the following factors:

1) Not holding the fist correctly
2) Not hitting with the correct surface
3) Hitting hard bony parts of the opponent
4) Hitting (very) hard

You can of course add "weak hands" to that list though this probably
isn't a significant list for most trained boxers. For the trained
boxer, it is that they are trained to hit (very) hard, but have almost
no training (from boxing) in proper hand positioning; they are also
'spoiled' by the wrapping which protects their hands when boxing and
by the gloves which keep them from breaking a hand (most of the time)
when hitting hard surfaces.

With good hand configuration (i.e., holding the hand AND wrist
properly) you can hit quite hard surfaces very hard without breaking a
hand, and it isn't really required to do makiwari training to the
point of hand damage.

> "When you have a rock or a hammer in your hand, you do not need to hit
> someone that hard to get results!"

The above is probably the closest metaphore for what is happening in
Systema.

> Slambag and Horseshoe training are beneficial to this type of
> development.  Traditional Makiwara (?) and hard knuckle training can
> cause damage as you age, arthritis is a great example.  We are trying
> to find the balance of maximizing our Self Defense within a time-frame
> that allows us to continue some sort of normal life, adapting to our
> environment is the human animals greatest trait.

Absolutely agreed. I personally have chronic systemic arthritis
throughout my body (especially knees, hips, spine) but almost no pain
in my hands even though I have trained martial arts since about 16
years old (some 40+ years now.)

> On another note.  Systema hits with tremendous power yes, but it is
> mostly centrifugal energy (like a baseball bat swing).  You need more
> space to create it sometimes.  GC principles embrace the possibility
> that we might be ambushed and not have the space to create such
> energy.

This is a mild and common misconception about Systema striking --
Systema instructors make an entire subject of what they term "short
work" -- almost invisible, very short range punches that generate
surprising power.

THE KEY in Systema strikes is that the arm is very relaxed and
'ballistic', i.e., the hand is literally "thrown" at the target. Thus
the applicability of the metaphor you used above; frequently when
teaching someone how to do a Systema punch I will relate it to the
idea of 'dropping a hammer' on the nail, i.e., using the momentum
without holding back the hammer once its path is begun. (Presuming
the person knows how to use a hammer <grin>)

[Of course there are other important ideas to the Systema strikes but
getting that relaxation is the most critical point.]

So the result is that Systema punches can be demonstrated from
(almost) touching the target, to swings (like throwing a baseball),
and even with body weight transfer -- it's just that Systema doesn't
REQUIRE that body weight transfer (nor those swings); these remains
always optional and provide additional force/speed when used.

Frequently when first demonstrating Systema to someone new I will hit
them (fairly lightly) from 3-4 inches away -- done lightly like this
it doesn't provide a devastating punch but immediately demonstrates
just how powerful a very short and very light strike can be.

It's quite attention getting to the person receiving the strike
without being terribly painful or scary. They know they have been
hit, and they know they want to learn how to do that.

A big advantage of the Systema type punch, and I think this is true
for Guided Chaos as well, is that the punch can begin from WHEREVER
the hand happens to be (in relation to the target), i.e., no
chambering, cocking, nor draw back is required. You can just fire it
from wherever the hand (or arm) happens to be as you move around and
strike your opponent.

> Dropping Power plays a tremendous role in compensating for that space,
> so focus on your balance exercises.

I am uncertain that I (fully) understand Guided Chaos dropping energy
even though I have been doing the 1-inch punch taught by students of
Bruce Lee for some 30 years.

The part of the explanation that concerns me is (words to the effect
of) "using the rebound energy" of the drop, rather than the drop
itself.

In the 1-inch punch it is the drop itself that puts the weight into
the punch -- at least the way that I learned that punch.

PLEASE NOTE: I am in no way claiming the 1-inch punch is "right" or
"correct", nor that any other punch is somehow preferred, just
comparing what I know and trying to point out what I do NOT know.

After all, I can do those other punches, and want to learn the Guided
Chaos method....

[Ken F.]

Herb, in GC the drop starts the initial motion. The catching of the
rebounding energy is where the "magic" happens. It allows you to
penetrate people instead of pushing them away as in Bruce's one inch
punch demo. It's why as Ari wrote, a cop who also doubles as a GC
Master caved a guy's face in.

The majority of what you wrote was pretty accurate. You should see if
your Tai Chi/Systema teacher is open minded enough to add/substitute
GC because it's already really close to what you guy's are doing.
Nothing new under the sun here but based on my knowledge and
experience, GC takes internal principles to their highest logical
conclusion. This is why things like grappling, clinching, throws,
locks etc. have fallen to the wayside with us.

If your instructor is game, and you're doing boxing for the "alive"
aspect only, that will become unnecessary.

[HerbMartin]

On Apr 21, 9:49 pm, "Ken F." <poetic2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Herb, in GC the drop starts the initial motion. The catching of the
> rebounding energy is where the "magic" happens. It allows you to
> penetrate people instead of pushing them away as in Bruce's one inch
> punch demo.

That demo (the one in the video popular on YouTube etc) is also
responsible for quite a bit of misunderstanding of the 1-inch punch --
as I learned it it is in no way a push, but exactly as you describe, a
deep penetration that sets up a tremendous shock wave.

There are some seven (or so) elements to doing the full 1-inch punch
and every web site I can find explaining it leaves out at least two
(not always the same two) of them. My guess is that Bruce Lee was
'pulling' that punch during the demo and that is how that push
(version of) the punch got filmed. This last is just my opinion, but
the punch itself as fully described in
"Bruce Lee's 1 and 3 Inch Power Punch" by James W. Demile
http://www.amazon.com/Bruce-Lees-Inch-Power-Punch/dp/0918642027/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

My review of it (and some other books including MA titles) is here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3L8MWFV9MUPUL/ref=cm_pdp_rev_all?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview

> It's why as Ari wrote, a cop who also doubles as a GC
> Master caved a guy's face in.

One of the reasons for meeting some of you guys is to experience the
GC strikes (at reasonable levels) and learn if I can do these or have
the right mechanics to develop them.

> The majority of what you wrote was pretty accurate. You should see if
> your Tai Chi/Systema teacher is open minded enough to add/substitute
> GC because it's already really close to what you guy's are doing.

It's not going to happen. Not open to it -- he is really Vlad
focused; this is one of his few myopias. And of course he doesn't
know GC either.

> Nothing new under the sun here but based on my knowledge and
> experience, GC takes internal principles to their highest logical
> conclusion. This is why  things like grappling, clinching, throws,
> locks etc. have fallen to the wayside with us.

That seems like a mistake to me. It removes a lot of options and
there are some grappling positions which are very difficult to escape
if you get caught in them before you realize the danger.

Sure, it's possible to say "GC folks never allow that" but reality
says that "stuff happens", and of course any martial art (or pistol
training) worth its salt is going to teach and urge situational
awareness and AVOIDING physical attack before the attack even occurs
-- were we humans perfect then we would just never get into such
situations AT ALL.

We're not that good -- most of us.

(Although oddly enough I haven't been in a fight nor been attacked in
about 35 years -- since about the time I first began Aikido -- not
claiming anything here, just an oddity considering all the attacks I
experience PRIOR to that time even though I ALWAYS avoided fights and
trouble situations when possible.)

> If your instructor is game, and you're doing boxing for the "alive"
> aspect only, that will become unnecessary.

I don't think I understand the above sentence.

Neither my Systema nor my boxing coach are open to 'other stuff'. The
AMOK! folks are, including the creator of AMOK! (Tom Sotis), but they
have to see stuff work before they are going to devote any resources
to anything.

Basically, I will try anything (at least) once if it even comes close
to making sense.

There is a lot of junk out there that makes claims similar to GC and
so one of the big marketing problems is burning through the hype fog
created by those other (foolish) programs.

I worked with some Target Focused Training (TFT) folks who were
meeting here for a while (a descendent of SCARS) which describes
itself in similar ways to GC (I am in NO WAY claiming a relationship
between them, nor am I implying that they suffer from any of the same
issues, just using TFT or SCARS as examples of hyped up stuff).

The TFT program is not without SOME VALUE, but much of what THE WAY
that they practice is deficient (I could describe this in detail if
you wish, but basically they are fooling themselves by constantly
using cooperative opponents and relying on an unerring ability to hit
vulnerable targets and to always get devastating results.)

GC MARKETING suffers from stuff like this being out there -- and TFT
isn't one of the truly worthless programs even. As I indicated, what
they do has SOME value; they are just overly optimistic about the
results.



--
Herb

[Patrick]

HerbMartin - Take a look at these descriptions of the one inch punch.
Which one is closest to your understanding?

http://www.helium.com/knowledge/235529-bruce-lee-one-inch-punch-how-one-inch-punch-works

[HerbMartin]

On Apr 22, 3:09 am, Patrick <HumbleStud...@Hushmail.com> wrote:
> HerbMartin - Take a look at these descriptions of the one inch punch.
> Which one is closest to your understanding?

> http://www.helium.com/knowledge/235529-bruce-lee-one-inch-punch-how-o...

They aren't very close -- none of these even describe the dropping
energy....

First article (by Joshua Peacock): Starts out wrong "...to execute
Bruce's one inch punch, you must get into a fighting stance, where
your shoulder points towards the target..."
-- at best it won't be a 1-inch punch as given in the book I
mentioned, and I doubt it would even work. None of the actual
elements are given so it isn't going to work from the description even
if these guys can do it or can do something else useful.

Second article (by D. Kearney Sparano): This one only has 2-3 of the
(7 or so) elements and they are not clearly described, especially the
timing. It references the infamous video.

Third article (by Gary Cartlidge): This one doesn't even pretend to
give the technical elements -- it vaguely describes the hip motion by
referencing the video. Even on the hip motion it misses the KEY
technical point of HOW to use dropping to get the hip motion and how
the entire punch is done.

Fourth article (by David Zacker): This one isn't even a description of
the 1-inch punch but rather the twist punch which is used throughout
most karate and even boxing.

None of the four articles come close (technically #2 is closest since
it does mention a couple of the elements). These articles are largely
descriptive pieces on a) Bruce Lee himself b) the IDEA of the 1-inch
punch c) a general concept of body mechanics and timing or d) the
mysteries of Ki.

None of these articles even mention the dropping energy, the drop
itself, the way this creates a hip twist, nor how to set up the feet
to do the drop and use it to create the twisting energy (which gets
transmitted to the target through timing the shoulder, arm, and even
hand movements).

The hand and shoulder movements are almost completely missing from all
of the articles, especially the hand 'penetration' method, as well as
the way depth and internal shock are generated.

At best these four articles my intrigue or interest someone in
learning this technique.

The book I gave above is ENTIRELY EXPLICIT in explaining (all of) the
essential technical elements and how to put them together. It also
has a series of exercises designed to train the movements, timing, and
coordination:

"Bruce Lee's 1 and 3 Inch Power Punch" by James W. Demile
http://www.amazon.com/Bruce-Lees-Inch-Power-Punch/dp/0918642027/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

When I say "EXPLICIT", I mean that you can follow those steps and
achieve the punch. The first time I encountered the 1-inch punch in
this book, sometime prior to 1980, I did this in about 2 hours total,
most of which was spent on a quick first read of the book.

I personally found the exercises to be unnecessary -- it just worked
the first time. The weeks/months of exercises and practice the book
offers and recommends are nice to have if it doesn't work for you
initially however.

The first attempt with a partner worked almost too well. Even though
I PULLED the punch on the first attempt, I hurt (pain) and almost
injured my training partner -- even though we used a (small) phone
book and towel for padding -- NEVER practice this punch unless you use
at least a METRO phone book AND a thick JUDO-gi until you fully
understand what it (really) will do.

This thing gives remarkable results THROUGH a big metro phone book AND
a thick gi for padding -- I have NEVER tried it without padding. It
would not be safe unless you had a really good Systema (or perhaps GC)
trainer who can absorb energy: I have wanted to attempt this, but
even with a proper partner we would need to work up to it by trying
the padding methods first.

BTW, I am claiming no particular skill or athletic ability here --
this book is just that clear.

What I do have is a good ability to read descriptions and translate
them into physical movements IF the descriptions are clear and
complete -- I learned my first karate in 1968, my first aikido in
1974, and other things like the 1-inch punch over the years by reading
this way. The first aikido technique I learned was pretty remarkable
and magical, throwing my (other) training partner back and down with
only a shoulder shrug -- it was the technique NOT ME nor any
particular skill on my part....the book containing this technique came
from the post library on my Army base (I finally found this again and
bought a copy just a few years ago).

Recently, I have spent a lot of time this year reading Jack Dempsey's
book on boxing ("Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and
Aggressive Defense") -- and I have learned (at least partially) how to
do his version of a "jab" -- Dempsey calls this a "left jolt" to
distinguish it from the usual boxing jab. But guess what! Dempsey
is also teaching a DROPPING PUNCH -- using dropping energy to generate
forward striking power.

This is Dempsey, the famous heavyweight champion from the 1920s, and
his book has been out there -- probably THE BEST boxing manual --
since 1950.

Nothing beats hands on training from a master but SOMETIMES a master
will write one or a few techniques in such a way that they can be
learned strictly from that written description. It is very rare, but
it occasionally happens -- seldom more than once or twice in any one
book.

One final note (and to bring this discussion back to GC): The method
given in the book for the 1-inch punch is with a STATIC STANCE, no
foot movement.

I have NEVER practiced it while moving, nor with a moving partner.

That method is almost useless for combat unless one can still do it
while moving and while the opponent is moving -- I have long suspected
that some of what GM Perkins had discovered might be doing this method
of power generation while moving against a moving opponent.

Practicing the 1-inch punch while moving is very difficult, both
because of the way it is done and due to the problem of making it safe
to even attempt under chaotic conditions of movement, sparring, or
combat.

Do you folks have safety issues when new students are first taught
your strikes? (E.g., not allowing 2 beginners to practice since one
of them might "get it" before the other can absorb or dissipate that
much energy?)

It is possible that he and you GC folks are doing something entirely
different of course -- or perhaps most likely, doing SOME of the
elements, the ones that work in a moving, combat context and perhaps
adding other refinements also.

The Systema punch is almost entirely different from the 1-inch punch
-- with the exception of the arm and some of the hand movement; the
similarities include relaxation of the striking arm, the "reach
inside" (your opponent) idea, and the momentary tension of the hand/
forearm ONLY AFTER and DURING near-maximum penetration of the target.

All three methods emphasize and require RELAXATION to get speed and
depth of penetration (as far as I understand GC strikes.) Only the GC
and 1-inch punch typically use or require dropping energy (Systema
doesn't emphasize this.)

--
HerbM

[Joe T]

If anyone has had the opportunity to work with GM Perkins or GM
Carron, they would have a first hand account of the true nature of
"drop hitting" has a much more effect when coupled with ghosting your
movements.

A large part of "dropping" is seeing the benefit of the practitioners
skeletal structure alignment that will allow for a maximum drop
without muscle compensation, one will be able to stay relaxed and
focused never have to use strength only proper body alignment.

Many times I literally "fell" into a strike from either GM's, so in
essence the power of the impact comes from a car crashing into a
telephone pole. This level is achieved by ghosting your opponent and
ones ability to step in a proper direction to have the greatest
advantage point.

Part of the higher levels of this art embrace "not being there in the
first place" obviously it can translate to a million different things
but for the sake of the discussion it is the understanding that
"stepping offline" is crucial when dealing with an attack.

No matter how you see the attack, it is traveling in one
direction....towards you. So if you develop timing, one can step to a
point that is unavailable and align your skeletal structure in a way
to maximize dropping power. Obviously easier said than done. Only
with proper balance can any of this be achieved.

Since our bodies are around 80% water, we can take into account the
gravitational pull can vary based on the placement of the water. When
proper dropping occurs our entire water weighted body "freefalls" for
the most micro of seconds, the tendons act like a slingshot supporting
our skeleton and will rebound the energy back up off the surface you
are on (concrete, grass, ect.). Over time one can learn to guide
that energy into a strike, no matter what part of the body you are
capable of using.

The importance of relaxation is essential and the tendon development
through balance exercises is key for proper development of the tendons
to handle the freefall effect. Building it up gradually is important
because of the damage that can occur to the tendons and joints from
constant pressure.

hope this is another way of describing it, and of course it probably
mimicks something that was already stated.

jt

> "Bruce Lee's 1 and 3 Inch Power Punch" by James W. Demilehttp://www.amazon.com/Bruce-Lees-Inch-Power-Punch/dp/0918642027/ref=c...

[Patrick]

Thank you. I was hoping to get an understanding of the One Inch
Punch, especially since your description sounded different from what
I've heard. Though admittedly very little.

[Ken F.]

Joe explained what is happening perfectly and pretty much any first
degree and above can achieve the same against a moving opponent as
well, although to a lesser degree of skill. So our usage of dropping
is highly dependent on the other principles and doesn't involve
perfect body position as the fights we are talking about are too
chaotic for any setting up.

As for our stance on grappling, it goes back to what I said about
setting up and taking internal principles to their highest logical
conclusion. Any grappling that doesn't act in the same free form
motion as a strike violates GC principles and it fails practically
every time anyone has ever tried it on me in Contact Flow or free
fighting.

Of course the recommendation to have your Tai Chi/Systema teacher
train GC principles would be under the condition that he actually
found value in doing so.

TFT/SCARS/SAFTA are all derived from Kung Fu San Soo and are based on
trying to reduce human movement to a set of autonomic reactions in
response to damaging, kinetic strikes. Great presentations but this
sets them up for purely cooperative training.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Patrick]

The AttackProof book talks about the Dempsey Drop. It is a external
version of what we do. We drop on everything. Hitting, pocketing,
stepping, pulling, pushing, breaking, etc.

Balance is very important in fighting. Without balance things don't
work or whatever is tried is clumsy. One thing we do is a drop push.
Not so hard that the opponent goes flying, but just enough that they
lose balance, but not enough that they feel the need to step. As
their balance is compromised, we then do a full power drop to do
damage. If the same thing was tried with a normal push, you would be
off balance, the timing would be off(not as instantaneous) and would
allow the attacker (if balanced) to use your push against you.

We also drop when pocketing. This allows us to get out of the way
while maintaining balance. A lot of this is very hard to explain in
just words only. Most of this really needs to be felt to be
appreciated.

More on Dropping and the Dempsey Drop
Newletter #7 - http://www.attackproof.com/Increasing-Striking-and-Punching-Power-Using-Dropping-Energy.html

[Evan]

I'm gonna try my hand at an explanation to see if it makes any sense.
Take what I have to say with a grain of salt, as I've been doing this
far less than many people on these boards. In addition, if I say
anything that you guys disagree with, let me know so I can learn what
I'm doing wrong! :)

The concept of 'dropping power' in GC is a bit of a misnomer, as it
should probably be named "dropping/rebounding power'. I suppose that
would be a bit too cumbersome a term, though. While most proficient
martial artists recognize the value of getting one's body weight
behind a strike, I found that this concept of 'rebound energy' really
increased my striking power significantly with using far less effort.
More importantly, the concept is backed by good physics, rather than
the nebulous concept of 'chi' that seems to permeate a lot of the
internal arts.

In physics, Force = mass * acceleration, and acceleration = velocity/
time. We can increase the force applied to something by increasing
the mass of the hitting object, or by increasing the speed of the
hitting object. One can also have more of an effect on a target if we
dramatically shorten the time over which that force is applied . For
example, a car hitting a solid metal wall will suffer far more
structural damage than a car that hits a soft snowbank that
decelerates it slowly.

If we rely primarily on gravity to generate the force with a drop in
body weight, without the rebound effect, gravity has a finite
acceleration (9.8meters/second^2). This can generate significant
force, but once something is in freefall, gravity is the only method
of acceleration. While 9.8m/sec^2 seems like fairly rapid
acceleration, if the distance is only 1 or 2 inches the actual speed
of the object after that short distance isn't all that much. One can
augment that acceleration somewhat by pushing off the back leg, but
because the direction of force of gravity is downward while the vector
of force of the back leg has some upward direction, there is some
cancelling out of the total force that is applied.

Very much as a ball that is thrown against a wall absorbs the force of
impacting the wall and rebounds back to the thrower, the force
generated by that short drop hits the ground through the feet and
rebounds through the properly aligned skeletal structure into the
opponent through the hand, elbow, shoulder, or whatever striking
surface is used. This force is augmented by whatever forward motion
is generated through the relaxed legs, hips, waist, spine, and
shoulders. The rebound actually changes the direction of the force so
it is more in-line with the forward motion of the body and legs, and
since both vectors of force are heading in roughly the same direction
(unlike when only a body weight drop is used), the resultant force is
greater. The sudden halt to the downward motion of the body that
occurs in a fraction of a second dramatically shortens the time over
which that force is applied to the opponent. The sudden rapid change
in direction of force that the rebound causes has the same effect on
the target as the car hitting the iron wall, rather than the
snowbank. The sudden impact of the drop/rebound strike doesn't move
the opponent like a push would. Instead of all of that energy being
used to overcome the opponent's inertia to move them backwards, the
force is transmitted to within the target where they stand. Having
experienced the stopping power of one of these drop/rebound strikes
myself, I'd liken it to feeling like I had run into a telephone pole,
with minimal movement on the other person's part.


Now, can something with simliar effect be done without the drop/
rebound? I imagine that it is certainly possible for very talented
people who are in very good physical shape, that have the muscles and
the physique, and/ or the coordination to throw extremely fast,
powerful punches. The advantage of the drop/rebound method of
striking, though, is efficiency. Since we are relying far more on
gravity and the laws of physics with proper body alignment to channel
that force, it means there is less reliance on muscular effort for
power generation, and less energy is expended for a similar result.
Since I'm a fairly small guy (150lbs soaking wet), and I don't have
the muscle mass or the weight to generate big haymaker punches, I need
to rely on something else in order to generate significant power.
Grandmaster Perkins and Grandmaster Carron have far less physical
gifts than many of their students when it comes to size and muscle
mass, yet they can still rattle them with what looks like minmal
movement. If someone is gifted with size, speed, and strength, the
dropping/rebounding energy makes their strikes that much more
powerful.

Herb, I actually think it's great that you've got a skeptical mind
when it comes to these things. As you've stated before, people make a
lot of claims about combat systems and sometimes its difficult to sort
out the hype from what's real. It's even more difficult to get an
idea of what's going on when the only exposure to GC for many people
is through books and DVDs. I had read the AttackProof book from cover
to cover and watched the DVD companion series multiple times before I
finally met up with Ari in Louisville. All of that preparation still
didn't prepare me for what contact flow was like at the hands of an
adept. I know there's a number of people in the group that have had
Systema training that eventually wound up sticking with GC. With
luck, you'll get a chance to meet up with one of the instructors if
they ever get down to your neck of the woods. I'm sure you'll get
something out of it to aid with whatever training you decide to do!

OK, all of you GC board regulars. Lemme know what I screwed up! :)

On Apr 22, 3:31 pm, Patrick <HumbleStud...@Hushmail.com> wrote:
> The AttackProof book talks about the Dempsey Drop.  It is a external
> version of what we do.  We drop on everything.  Hitting, pocketing,
> stepping, pulling, pushing, breaking, etc.
>
> Balance is very important in fighting.  Without balance things don't
> work or whatever is tried is clumsy.  One thing we do is a drop push.
> Not so hard that the opponent goes flying, but just enough that they
> lose balance, but not enough that they feel the need to step.  As
> their balance is compromised, we then do a full power drop to do
> damage.  If the same thing was tried with a normal push, you would be
> off balance, the timing would be off(not as instantaneous) and would
> allow the attacker (if balanced) to use your push against you.
>
> We also drop when pocketing.  This allows us to get out of the way
> while maintaining balance.  A lot of this is very hard to explain in
> just words only.  Most of this really needs to be felt to be
> appreciated.
>
> More on Dropping and the Dempsey Drop

> Newletter #7 -http://www.attackproof.com/Increasing-Striking-and-Punching-Power-Usi...

[Kevin]

I would like to add a little different perspective from Patrick (not
saying he's wrong but just a little semantics at play here). We drop
hit or a variation of it when we practice. Of course we do not do it
at full power because if we did before long we would run out of
students. GM Perkins will demonstrate a drop push where he will send
someone flying across the room. GM Perkins states that the drop push
is strictly for demonstration purposes because if he drop hits on
someone in a real life confrontation his intention is not only to
cripple/destroy whatever bodily organ is behind the area he strikes
but to also leave his adversary practically standing in the same spot
so he can deliver his next hit or drop hit. If he pushes him away
then the person has the opportunity to regain their balance or in a
worse case scenario pulls either a gun or a knife.

What I have described is the effect or at least the desired effect of
a drop hit while Joe T provided a good simple broken down explanation
of the drop hit. I have not read Evan's post completely because I see
he turned it into a physics or math lesson and at 3:05 am, my mind is
not conducive for studying math/physics nowI have a headache so I am
going to bed...LOL

[mark]

Most people when thinking of the one inch punch,think about Bruce
lee's demonstration!
Which by the way was a parlour trick by" degree" although not fake.

The guy who bruce sent back into the chair was a push punch.
He was standing square(double weighted) onto bruce,who wasn't.
Anybody who stands equally on both legs will naturally rock from toe
to heel.
All Bruce did was time it,so as the guy rocked back,applied the push
punch and let Sir Issac Newtons 3rd law of physics takeover.

Which states every action has a reaction!
So by degree the guy threw himself,trying to regain balance too late
in the game

So although Bruce received back the same amount of force in the same
direction,his stance allowed him to use NET force,the second law of
physics and was anchored to the ground,having a leg behined him.
To top it all Bruce was moving,so he used inertia,the first law of
physics.

So it was bit of a set up!

So my mind tells me only use a drop push when a train or car is
coming,or a drop strike,to finnish him where he stands!

[HerbMartin]

On Apr 22, 2:31 pm, Patrick <HumbleStud...@Hushmail.com> wrote:
> The AttackProof book talks about the Dempsey Drop. It is a external
> version of what we do. We drop on everything. Hitting, pocketing,
> stepping, pulling, pushing, breaking, etc.

Nice!

It has been a short while since I last read (as opposed to turned
through
or referenced) the book; at that last reading I was not yet into
boxing
and had not of course read Dempsey so I missed that connection.

Thanks for pointing it out.

I did however see the possible connection to GC when I read Dempsey
(this year) for the first time.

> Balance is very important in fighting. Without balance things don't
> work or whatever is tried is clumsy.

Boxing coaches take this to EXTREMES -- seriously.

Of course, most martial arts emphasize this too.

In fact, a major reason one martial art differs from another is in HOW
the art treats Stance, Form, Balance, and Movement, even though all of
the arts are trying to do essentially the same thing: use balanced
movement to avoid (the opponents') force while using good balanced
stance and movement to deliver force. They vary in how they go about
this.

> One thing we do is a drop push.
> Not so hard that the opponent goes flying, but just enough that they
> lose balance, but not enough that they feel the need to step. As
> their balance is compromised, we then do a full power drop to do
> damage.

That's a interesting tactic. (This by the way is clearly directly
applicable to the original and nominal topic of this thread, i.e.,
boxing.)

> If the same thing was tried with a normal push, you would be
> off balance, the timing would be off(not as instantaneous) and would
> allow the attacker (if balanced) to use your push against you.
>
> We also drop when pocketing. This allows us to get out of the way
> while maintaining balance. A lot of this is very hard to explain in
> just words only. Most of this really needs to be felt to be
> appreciated.

This is an issue with most of the truly amazing martial arts
techniques.

> More on Dropping and the Dempsey Drop

> Newletter #7 -http://www.attackproof.com/Increasing-Striking-and-Punching-Power-Usi...

Thanks -- I remain uncertain about *MY* ability to repeat this
technique based on the descriptions however.

BTW: I have mentioned that I am an older guy, having started boxing
this year for the first time at age 57. I am not sure I have
mentioned that my knees are extremely arthritic -- I only have about
50% range of motion in them, less perhaps under heavy load. I am
still presuming that I only need a short drop to use these techniques
and I can with some difficulty drop and deliver punches against a
boxer.
--
HerbM

[HerbMartin]

On Apr 23, 12:04 am, Evan <evan.ye...@fuse.net> wrote:
> I'm gonna try my hand at an explanation to see if it makes any sense.
> Take what I have to say with a grain of salt, as I've been doing this
> far less than many people on these boards.  In addition, if I say
> anything that you guys disagree with, let me know so I can learn what
> I'm doing wrong!  :)
>
> The concept of 'dropping power' in GC is a bit of a misnomer, as it
> should probably be named "dropping/rebounding power'.  I suppose that
> would be a bit too cumbersome a term, though.  

I think GC makes this distinction quite clearly (I say this as an
outside who would be confused by this had it not been clear), but of
course you are correct it is a bit of a misnomer and perhaps a more
precise term might be found and that MIGHT lead to better or quicker
understanding for some people who are trying to learn this.

> While most proficient
> martial artists recognize the value of getting one's body weight
> behind a strike, I found that this concept of 'rebound energy' really
> increased my striking power significantly with using far less effort.

Actually the key is rapidly transferring energy (i.e. IMPACT and
MOMENTUM transfer), and "getting body weight" into a blow is but one
of several ways to do that. You can get body weight (and momentum)
into a punch by simply moving forward (this frequently has negative
effects like leading to over-commitment or making it possible for the
opponent to avoid you like a matador side-steps a bull.)

You can get more impact by moving the weapon (e.g., fist/hand)
faster. There are several (at least) other ways.

> More importantly, the concept is backed by good physics, rather than
> the nebulous concept of 'chi' that seems to permeate a lot of the
> internal arts.

I generally think of "Chi" as being merely a LABEL for using proper
body mechanics, especially when those mechanics are actually too
complex to analyze mathematically but are testable empirically.

It's not magic (in the supernatural sense) but it is a sometimes
useful term for the magic (in the sleight of hand or illusion) sense
that many martial artists can perform.

I am philosophically a scientist. There are however some things I can
do which are difficult to explain. I am convinced there ARE
explanations and I am looking to find those, but this won't keep me
from DOING those things in the mean time.

> In physics, Force = mass * acceleration, and acceleration = velocity/
> time.  We can increase the force applied to something by increasing
> the mass of the hitting object, or by increasing the speed of the
> hitting object.  

Remember the "acceleration' we are mostly concerned with is the
acceleration of the opponents body or body part -- so the key point
you get to it in the next sentence:

> One can also have more of an effect on a target if we
> dramatically shorten the time over which that force is applied .  For
> example, a car hitting a solid metal wall will suffer far more
> structural damage than a car that hits a soft snowbank that
> decelerates it slowly.

This is termed "IMPACT".

It is impact that causes the majority of damage in most auto
collisions.

You can use one car to push another car safely at even fairly high
speeds (or at least you could when most cars had standard
transmissions <grin>) if you BEGIN the push slowly and carefully.
Apply the same force quickly (such as during a collision) and metal
bends or breaks.

It's worth reading the Wikipedia articles on IMPACT, MOMENTUM,
IMPULSE, and FORCE to understand what they really mean in physics and
mechanics (which is somewhat different from everyday usage) and when
these ideas aren't directly applicable in less than "ideal elastic"
collisions.

Human bodies are not perfectly elastic, and moreover they CHANGE their
elasticity from moment to moment in response to gravity/balance,
collisions, pain, etc.

>  If we rely primarily on gravity to generate the force with a drop in
> body weight, without the rebound effect, gravity has a finite
> acceleration (9.8meters/second^2).  This can generate significant
> force, but once something is in freefall, gravity is the only method
> of acceleration. While 9.8m/sec^2 seems like fairly rapid
> acceleration, if the distance is only 1 or  2  inches the actual speed

> of the object after that short distance isn't all that much.  ...

There is something discomforting about this statement above, if the
REBOUND from that SAME gravity force is to be used as the replacement.

Either we are using the drop for the rebound or we are just using the
muscular energy directly.

If all the drop is doing is "cocking the trigger" then this would be
akin to cocking your arm before a punch with all the attendant
disadvantages. (I don't subscribe to this explanation but it would be
the case logically.)

> Very much as a ball that is thrown against a wall absorbs the force of
> impacting the wall and rebounds back to the thrower, the force
> generated by that short drop hits the ground through the feet and
> rebounds through the properly aligned skeletal structure into the
> opponent through the hand, elbow, shoulder, or whatever striking
> surface is used.  This force is augmented by whatever forward motion
> is generated through the relaxed legs, hips, waist, spine, and
> shoulders.  The rebound actually changes the direction of the force so
> it is more in-line with the forward motion of the body and legs, and
> since both vectors of force are heading in roughly the same direction
> (unlike when only a body weight drop is used), the resultant force is
> greater.   The sudden halt to the downward motion of the body that
> occurs in a fraction of a second dramatically shortens the time over
> which that force is applied to the opponent.  The sudden rapid change
> in direction of force that the rebound causes has the same effect on
> the target as the car hitting the iron wall, rather than the
> snowbank.   The sudden impact of the drop/rebound strike doesn't move
> the opponent like a push would.  Instead of all of that energy being
> used to overcome the opponent's inertia to move them backwards, the
> force is transmitted to within the target where they stand.  Having
> experienced the stopping power of one of these drop/rebound strikes
> myself, I'd liken it to feeling like I had run into a telephone pole,
> with minimal movement on the other person's part.

The above sounds interesting but it isn't really dealing with the
IMPACT and issues of human anatomy that alter the way equations of
mechanics are ideally applied.

> Now, can something with simliar effect be done without the drop/
> rebound?  I imagine that it is certainly possible for very talented
> people who are in very good physical shape, that have the muscles and
> the physique, and/ or the coordination  to throw extremely fast,
> powerful punches.   The advantage of the drop/rebound method of
> striking, though, is efficiency.  Since we are relying far more on
> gravity and the laws of physics with proper body alignment to channel
> that force, it means there is less reliance on muscular effort for
> power generation, and  less energy is expended for a similar result.

If we are "relying on gravity" then we cannot dismiss that force of
gravity as you did earlier in the explanation. We are either using
the gravity or not.

> Since I'm a fairly small guy (150lbs soaking wet), and I don't have
> the muscle mass or the weight to generate big haymaker punches, I need
> to rely on something else in order to generate significant power.

Right. But hit someone with a 20 pound cement block that is moving
fast enough that they cannot absorb or avoid the impact and you get
really destructive results.

If you can some significant portion of your weight (temporarily)
converted to momentum and apply quickly (i.e., high impact) your
opponent will resemble MUCH MORE CLOSELY a brittle body that can be
broken or damaged.

This is the reason that Systema and oddly enough EVEN Boxers (and also
GC I believe) learn to take punches NOT by tensing the body he-man
fashion, but rather by RELAXING the body and turning it into a big
water bag that dissipates the impact slowly and safely.

The works much better for blows to the body -- largely water -- than
it does for blow to the skull which is more like wood or cement and
thus cannot be 'fully' relaxed for absorption.

Of course, relaxation helps with blows to the head too; you roll with
the punch by moving the neck and other muscles to change the angles
and slow down the force transfer over a greater distance and thus over
a greater time (i.e., reduce impact.)

Oddly enough another way to reduce the damage (to the brain) of a head
blow is to actually do the opposite: solidify the neck and core and
just "take the punch" -- you are likely going to take more superficial
damage (cuts, bruises to your face etc) but the damage to the brain
CAN be reduces because the impact doesn't get transferred TO THE
BRAIN, neither initially when otherwise the brain would be accelerated
in the direction of the blow, nor later when the moving brain --
eventually -- strikes the opposite side of the brain case and thus
suffers would suffer a secondary -- much of the time worse -- impact.

Watch enough boxing knockouts and you see the worst punch (for the guy
being knocked out) is the one that cuts across the point of the chin
therefore rapidly accelerates the skull in a circular directions --
especially if the fighter being hit doesn't "see it coming". The
blows are frequently much less 'forceful' than other blows which do
little or no damage, yet this perfect acceleration of the brain case
and thus the brain causes near immediate unconsciousness.

> Grandmaster Perkins and Grandmaster Carron have far less physical
> gifts than many of their students when it comes to size and muscle
> mass, yet they can still rattle them with what looks like minmal
> movement.  If someone is gifted with size, speed, and strength, the
> dropping/rebounding energy makes their strikes that much more
> powerful.

This represent good bio-mechanics. They get that force and momentum
they DO have transferred efficiently -- and this generally means
rapidly -- thus creating high impact and rapid momentum changes in the
target.

It also helps, if you can do it without alerting the opponent who may
have options for dissipating, absorbing, or otherwise dealing with
that force transfer.

> Herb, I actually think it's great that you've got a skeptical mind
> when it comes to these things.  

You have all been very tolerant of my outsider attitude (especially
the GM); not all martial arts communities have that attitude.

Let me be clear though:

I am philosophically a scientist and a mathematician. I am not
(particularly) skeptical of GC any more than I am skeptical of
(literally) everything.

At the same time, I have an open mind, and hearing of good results
from enough people with a good attitude (like you folks here) is very
encouraging and provides the evidence to make GC worth pursuing.

Generally you must be most skeptically when you encounter a religious
or fanatical attitude or devotion to received wisdom. Some other
martial arts suffer from this problem in varying degrees.

But I have been reading Attackproof and following this list or the GC
web site for years precisely because there is real value within it.

> As you've stated before, people make a
> lot of claims about combat systems and sometimes its difficult to sort
> out the hype from what's real.  It's even more difficult to get an
> idea of what's going on when the only exposure to GC for many people
> is through books and DVDs.  I had read the AttackProof book from cover
> to cover and watched the DVD companion series multiple times before I
> finally met up with Ari in Louisville.  All of that preparation still
> didn't prepare me for what contact flow was like at the hands of an
> adept.  I know there's a number of people in the group that have had
> Systema training that eventually wound up sticking with GC.  With
> luck, you'll get a chance to meet up with one of the instructors if
> they ever get down to your neck of the woods.  I'm sure you'll get
> something out of it to aid with whatever training you decide to do!

That evidence would mean more if it were presented by the actual
people along with their level of Systema experience and ability.

I have seen quite a few Systema students who were at a plateau DESPITE
continued practice and quality instructors This is one of the
problems that Systema folks do NOT like to discuss openly.

> OK, all of you GC board regulars.  Lemme know what I screwed up!   :)

[HerbMartin]

On Apr 23, 3:28 am, mark <guidedchao...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Most people when thinking of the one inch punch,think about Bruce
> lee's demonstration!
> Which by the way was a parlour trick by" degree" although not fake.

Yes, that is how it is perceived by most people.

I honestly don't know if Bruce Lee every claimed this was the actual 1-
inch punch, or if he himself ever understood what had happened. (I
suspect strongly that he did understand but figured the demo would
stand to the entertainment it provided and the interest it engendered
in learning more useful techniques.)

But it is unfortunate that most people have this misconception --
especially those who want to try to understand or learn the real
martial technique.

> The guy who bruce sent back into the chair was a push punch.

,,,

> So it was bit of a set up!

Yes.

Also, you get this result by "pulling" the 1-inch punch or by leaving
out some of the elements to make sure you don't injure the poor demo
subject.

> So my mind tells me only use a drop push when a train or car is
> coming,or a drop strike,to finnish him where he stands!

Usually it is better just step aside when facing an oncoming train or
motor vehicle. Same thing applies to bulls. Toro Toro <grin>



BTW, in the full description of the 1-inch punch the drop energy is
USED to create HIP TORQUE on the striking side which propels the
striking arm forward into and through the target. This trick is done
through asymmetrical foot placement (striking foot forward) and a
short free fall of the knees.

Obviously the main tricks to making this work are: complete and
sudden relaxation of the muscles holding the knees (nearly) straight,
timing this with the shoulder turn, arm motion, and hand to fist at
and through impact, and regaining the stability in the knees before
falling down.

This is where I understand is the major difference between a GC and a
BruceLee 1-inch punch: GC drops and and at least begins the rebound
BEFORE THE STRIKE, while the 1-inch punch is striking during the drop
itself.

That is a major difference in both concept and in practical timing.

I also don't believe, from the descriptions given here and in
Attackproof, that the GC strike is using either the drop or the
rebound by converting it to HIP TORQUE (i.e., by turning the striking
side of the body.)


--
HerbM

[Ari]

Let's take a step back here:

Hitting is a part of sensitivity.

There can be no standardized method of hitting if you want to be fully
adaptive.

GC Dropping starts out as a purely external method in GCC, very
similar to
the Dempsey Drop. Over time it becomes more internal until there's
practically no visible movement (only effect) and it's a completely
different, far more adaptive and useful method than the external drop.
Any
description given here is merely a verbalization of one step along the
way.
Subtle muscular control--basically heightened internal coordination.

EVERYTHING is involved in hitting, not just your own body mechanics.
You
must develop an intuitive qualitative touch for damaging different
parts of
bodies. You must develop your striking ridges through intelligent
conditioning (e.g. Slam bag). You must feel where the bad guy's center
is
moving.

You must be able to hit effectively ON THE MOVE, not from a set
stance, if
you want to be adaptive. Hence the emphasis on single-leg balance and
hitting from anywhere to anywhere, in any position (think polishing
the
sphere).

The best inch punch or external drop mechanics in the world are
useless if
you can't get them onto the right targets at the right times in the
chaos
of real violence.

John has said that many of his students can hit way harder than he
can.
It's as if they have .44 Magnums while he has only a .357. However, he
will
always put that .357 under the bad guy's chin or in his ear again and
again, while the heavier hitter is struggling to get his .44 anywhere
near
any target, with poor recoil recovery (overcommitment and balance).

DAMAGING PEOPLE IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM JUST HITTING HARD. We want to
become
experts at damaging people who are trying to hurt us, not at hitting
heavy
bags or people acting like heavy bags hard.

What's the best exercise to develop your ability to damage people,
anytime,
anywhere? Contact Flow. Supplement with slam bag, anywhere strikes,
and all
the other drills, but only contact flow will give you the sensitivity
to
move your whole body to deceptively get your ridges on target with the
right touch and timing to do real damage. Note that you don't actually
have
to damage your training partners to do this, but you do need to hit
and be
hit, albeit slowly.

Contact flow also, btw, even slowly, develops your drop, and is the
ONLY
exercise that can make it fully combat applicable.

GC is not meant to be broken down and analyzed like a physics problem.
I've
tried it, and it does not help you. The GC training methods are
wholistic,
experiential and intuitive, and produce reliable, replicable results,
unlike Systema as taught in the modern West (in my experience--see
newsletter 90).

Everyone sees something of what they already do in GC because as long
as it
can be done within the principles of Balance, Looseness, Body Unity,
Sensitivity and Complete Freedom of Action, it's GC. The question is,
how
good is your delivery system at deploying whatever tactics/methods are
in
question?

Get flowin'.

[Evan]

Alright, alright... I'm FLOWIN' already!!! :)

In all seriousness, thanks for the perspective, Ari. I'll take your
statements to heart.

And Herb, thanks for the analysis and reply!

[Joe T]

Thanks Ari, I am getting better at doin' it. Just need to get better
describing it!

Great Job
jt

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/guided-chaos-forum?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Admin]

As I have always stated, internal GC striking/punching/Dropping is an
intuitive process developed over time as you train the main principles
of GC.

There is a whole gamut of methodologies that must be learned and
internalized in order to excel at striking with the idea of being able
to accomplish extreme power and destruction to an attacker. I am not
young and have no cartilage in my knees, arthritis, diabetes and all
sorts of maladies that I must cope with daily. Tim has different
issues and even more to deal with yet we can muster enough ability to
deal with most of what is thrown our way. That is simply because we
have internalized the concepts of GC. Remember, age and experience
will usually win against youth and vitality. Imagine if you are young
and get some serious GC experience. UH OH...

Keep training, JP

[Brian Denyer]

Is it that by practicing on a conscious level that the movements are internalized and allow the body to perform without the interference of conscious thought?

In combat shooting I find the best scores are obtained when the target becomes melded with the subconscious mind. It similar to having time pass without awareness due to the interaction between yourself and the target.
Also in graphics conscious direction interferes with the clean movement of the hands in forming images. When in the groove of gesture drawing when I reflect what went on it seems that the whole body has moved with the hand to capture the essence of the models pose. Something I wasn't aware of until after. My most successful graphic images become reality when I can reach that special place which allows an outlet for the subconscious to flow freely. When a person asks how do you do that technique, I am at a loss to consciously explain how it is done.

In my opinion, the iamges of GC in practice show that detachment of the thinking self and a openess of free flowing movement.

Brian ..........................................
***************************************************************


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