TPS Calibration Range
Roger 04 RT
a) a set of limits that HEXCODE has entered into the GS-911 software. If this is the case, where did Hexcode get the limits?, or
b) information provided directly from the Motronic MA 2.4. In other words does the Motronic tell the GS-911 how close to the center of the desired range the TPS is?
Many thanks,
Roger
Haakon
I am NOT the right person to answer your question but will tell what believe- or know.
MY bike is a single cylinder one!
I will try describe single cylinder (basic) calibration first.
The TPS calibration do not use stored values.
The TPS`s are regular potentiometers. (if you do not know how they work, ask- its not easy to explain but I will try)
On single cylinder bikes the resistance of the 2 "resistance circuits", from idle to max opening are read and stored by the GS911. That’s all.
On single cylinder bikes there is no need to do this as the TPS values are updated all the time.
On multi cylinder bikes I GUESS the same is done, max and min of both TPS`s are recorded.
I believe that the values, max and minimum for both are stored and used.
(I do NOT know if your bike use 2 different injection times- right and left cylinder. I guess it does?)
If the 2 sets of values does not match I believe the injection time is adjusted to a "middle" time unless the difference in TPS value differ a lot.
If so, I guess one of the "emergency" ECU maps will be used.
If the bike has 2 Lambda (02) sensors I GUESS the injection time will be adjusted by the Lambdas- at low RPM`s.
Haakon
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Scott Irwin
-Scott
Haakon
Then I do not understand the reason to do a TPS calibration.
What you must do is make sure both carbs are fully synchronized.
That can be done by "feel" or vacuum meters.
My old (carb) Moto Guzzi is extremely sensitive re carb sync.
If both carbs are synchronized you may do a TPS...or not.
I am sure you can find info online, if not, please feel free to contact me "private"
bmw "???" bmw-f650.com
Change "???" to @
-------------------------
I never got vacuum meters to work on the Guzzi.
The manual way is to listen and feel.
First listen when slowly closing the throttle. A distinct click will be heard at both sides at the same time- or not.
On the Guzzi the final test is to , with the engine running- then remove one spark plug cap and have the engine "ignite" 3 times before it stops.
Same when the opposite side spark plug cap is removed.
I can NOT tell if that is safe to do on a "electronic" ignition bike :-(
dirk1....@telenet.be
Standard measurement for the 1100/1150 TPS is +/- 345 mv, turn the TPS up to 370-385mv. Do no go above 400, cause then the TPS doesn't work anymore.
After setting TPS, remove fuse 5, turn on ignition, wait 30sec, turn off ignition, re-insert fuse 5, turn on ignition, do NOT start, open the throttle completely 2 times.
Tps is set and motronic is reset
this is more accurate that the green range in the GS911.
Rgds,
Dirk
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Van: Haakon <b...@bmw-f650.com>
Aan: gs-...@googlegroups.com
Verzonden: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 01:32:44 +0200 (CEST)
Onderwerp: RE: [GS-911] TPS Calibration Range
ko...@hex.co.za
Simply connect a mv tester to pin 4 (plus - red/white) of the TPS plug, the min to good ground, preferably min battery. You can use a needle or paperclip pushed through the rubber seal of the bosch connector.
Standard measurement for the 1100/1150 TPS is +/- 345 mv, turn the TPS up to 370-385mv. Do no go above 400, cause then the TPS doesn't work anymore.
After setting TPS, remove fuse 5, turn on ignition, wait 30sec, turn off ignition, re-insert fuse 5, turn on ignition, do NOT start, open the throttle completely 2 times.
Tps is set and motronic is reset
this is more accurate that the green range in the GS911.
Rgds,
Dirk
Roger 04 RT
On the r1150, the green range in the TPS adjustment screen is roughly 300 mV to 370 mV. Are those limits something that hexcode has "learned" from studying the Moditec or is the range reported to GS-911 software from the Motronic.
RB
Regarding reset time with fuse 5 pulled, 30 sex. Is not long enough to reset the Motronic. It takes more than 2 minutes but less than 5 minutes. So I recommend 5 - 10 minutes to be sure.
Regarding TPS voltage, to be measured accurately on the fine range, measure between pins 1 and 4. To measure the coarse range measure between pins 2 and 4.
Regarding aligning the TPS, the GS-911 is the best way to do it. In a pinch use a DVM and set the TPS voltage at idle to 350 mV. Double check it with a few twists. A 20 mV change on the fine range is only a 0.0025" movement of the TPS as the screw head!
Personally I wouldn't use 370 mV, it is too close to the voltage that the Motronic sees as 0.64 degrees. It will cause the Motronic to have to learn a correction Adaptation Value.
Somewhere around 430 mV, the Motronic reports that the idle switch is off. But even if you set it there the bike will function. However, the Motronic will think th throttle is open 0.96 degrees when it is only open 0.32, again forcing the Motronic to have to learn a big correction.
dirk1....@telenet.be
This reset time is this something you've tested? When fuse 5 is pulled ALL power to the motronic is disabled. So I wonder why it would need 5-10 minutes to "loose" the data? I always used +/- 20-30 sec and this works fine. Nothing wrong with a longer reset period, but I think it's not necessary. the TPS learned the new throttle positions ok after 20-30secs.
The 370+ is to avoid KFR, we do it all the time, 850/1100/1150 runs better with TPS between 370-385.
The "green" range of the GS911 is ok to show a TPS which is way off, but it's not accurate enough to finetune, it would have been better if they simply showed the mv's.
Dirk
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Aan: gs-...@googlegroups.com
Verzonden: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 05:13:31 +0200 (CEST)
Onderwerp: Re: [GS-911] TPS Calibration Range
Roger 04 RT
Dirk,
I used to pull the fuse for 20-30 seconds too but stumbled onto the need for longer (~5 minutes). Then set up an experiment to measure it. The question is, how long do the capacitors that support the Motronic dram need to discharge? Here is the story: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=881130&Searchpage=1&Main=79453&Words=Motronic&Search=true#Post881130.
As part of a project that was simply to help me install a lambda-shifting device on my R1150RT, I've ended up making measurements of the Motronic for almost 3 years now. Here is the long Wideband O2 thread. There is a ton of Motronic data in it. http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=67207&Number=746671#Post746671.
Is KFR what we call Overrun Fuel Cutoff? To stop OFC from happening you need more than 1.92 degrees of throttle, which is about 600 mV. At 370-385 mV the Motronic reads that as 0.64 degrees, just up from the normal idle angle of 0.32 degrees, but 370-385 is below the point that the Motronic signals Idle Switch Off, 0.96 degrees (about 430 mV).
Currently I'm studying how the Motronic interacts with the TPS at small throttle angles. If you're interested in the data, I'll add a link here after I post it.
RB
dirk1....@telenet.be
Never knew there was a capacitator in the motronic. I've never had a problem with 30sec period, nor with the GS911 - immobilizer. I suspect once the GS911 HES test is completed the immobilizer is released. Could it be this is only on the 2.4 and not on the 2.2?
KFR is the annoying on/off feeling around 3000rpm, improves a little after increasing the TPS.
Yeah plse post the link, Always interested in that kind of stuff.
Dirk
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Van: Roger 04 RT <rogerb...@hotmail.com>
Aan: gs-...@googlegroups.com
Roger 04 RT
If you shift Closed Loop lambda by using an Innovate LC-2 or a Nightrider AF-xied for BMW, that annoying KFR goes away completely. Shifting lambda by as little as 4-6% rich transforms the engine.
Here is the link to the TPS thread I mentioned. I'm still making measurements and tests so it is a work in progress. http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=895615&page=all. So far, the most significant thing I've realized is that the long-honored zero=zero procedure incorrectly sets the throttle plate angle, AND the TPS. Yesterday I spent a couple hours measuring how the Motronic interacts with the TPS at small throttle angles and will post that in the next day or two.
dirk1....@telenet.be
I have performed the zero = zero many times, because the forbidden screws are messed with a lot. Although it might not be 100% correct compared to factory setting, it works good enough for most bikes.
What would be the correct procedure to restore the valve angle to factory setting according to your tests (other than the zero=zero)?
Rgds,
Dirk
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Van: Roger 04 RT <rogerb...@hotmail.com>
Aan: gs-...@googlegroups.com
If you shift Closed Loop lambda by using an Innovate LC-2 or a Nightrider AF-xied for BMW, that annoying KFR goes away completely. Shifting lambda by as little as 4-6% rich transforms the engine.
Here is the link to the TPS thread I mentioned. I'm still making measurements and tests so it is a work in progress. http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=895615&page=all. So far, the most significant thing I've realized is that the long-honored zero=zero procedure incorrectly sets the throttle plate angle, AND the TPS. Yesterday I spent a couple hours measuring how the Motronic interacts with the TPS at small throttle angles and will post that in the next day or two.
Roger 04 RT
I've measured and can easily demonstrate that air temp spoofers and fuel pressure increases are "learned" away after time. Here is my test of that, it runs on for a few pages: http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?56990-2004-R1150RT-Wideband-O2-Sensors&p=915428&viewfull=1#post915428.
Even though I don't advocate messing with the throttle stops and TPS I agree with your observation that many have been altered, I'm working on a modification of the Lentini procedure but simply, here is what I would do:
For someone (like me?) who has had their TPS Lentini-ized and wants to get it set correctly, a zero= 250 mV procedure could be used, so zero degrees throttle would be set to 250 mV. Then the left throttle should be rotated to 340-350 mV, and then follow the rest of the Lentini procedure. That will undoubtedly require the BBSs to be opened more than two turns. I will experiment with this on my bike to see how many turns are required.
dirk1....@telenet.be
If you start at zero = 250mv, then increase using the stop to 350, this means the valves are only opened for a very small portion, undoubtedly the bypasses need to opened more than 2 turns like you say, but I wonder if you can get an acceptable idle rpm with the valve opening being so small.
Also my method deviates a little from the lentini way, I close the bypasses completely, then set stop to 370-385, No influence from the bypasses there, then synchronize right stop, after that I only need to open the bypasses for 1/4-1/2 turn to set idle rpm. if I start at zero = 250mv there's no idle to synch with bypass closed.
Rgds,
Dirk
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Van: Roger 04 RT <rogerb...@hotmail.com>
Aan: gs-...@googlegroups.com
Even though I don't advocate messing with the throttle stops and TPS I agree with your observation that many have been altered, I'm working on a modification of the Lentini procedure but simply, here is what I would do:
For someone (like me?) who has had their TPS Lentini-ized and wants to get it set correctly, a zero= 250 mV procedure could be used, so zero degrees throttle would be set to 250 mV. Then the left throttle should be rotated to 340-350 mV, and then follow the rest of the Lentini procedure. That will undoubtedly require the BBSs to be opened more than two turns. I will experiment with this on my bike to see how many turns are required.
Roger 04 RT
But yes, 250 to 340 mV is 90 mV increase. That is 0.48 degrees, halfway between the 0.32 "bit" and the 0.64 bit. I offer reasons why that is the factory setting:
1) when set correctly the in the green range, the Motronic reports 0.32 degrees throttle open.
2) the r1100 lights the TPS cal relay in the same voltage range
3) the r1150, as you also mentioned earlier, is nominally about 340-350 mV
4) the Bosch TPS spec is very clear, with a 5v reference, 340 mV is 0.48 degrees
Your method open the throttle vane 1.92 degrees but the Motronic reads 0.32 or 0.64 degrees. Then when you open the throttle another 1.28 degrees, the throttle vane is actually open 2.20 degrees but the Motronic reads 1.6 degrees. In other words your Motronic is always reading incorrectly lean. At very small angles you also have bypass air to make up the difference but why not just open the bypass screws more and set things up so the Motronic and real throttle angle are the same?
Using a zero=250 method, you will have to start with clean TBs and clean bypass ports and clean bypass screws. Turn them out an equal number of turns and then adjust the right side.
I'm not a fan of doing any of this but if someone has run z=z on your bike and you can't bring idle down you've got to do something.
Roger 04 RT
santiago ruge
santiago ruge
Mitch Berger
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