Re: Some questions

[Cam]

Hello !

Glad you found us.

>Now, questions! :)
>Whats the purpose of the second rotary encoder? I'm assuming the second
>one has some use but I can't see what
Both of the rotary encoders can be used to alter almost any parameter
while flying. The common example is elevator compensation for flaps. You
never get it right first go (at least I don't). So you assign the
elevator "weight" figure in the flap mixer to a rotary encoder and you
can alter this mixer amount while flying. Having two encoders allows you
to do two such things at once.

>Assuming I don't need whatever the answer is to the previous question,
>could I replace one of them with a 6 position pot to control flight
>modes on an ArduPilot? Or would it make more sense to replace one of
>the existing pots (and is that possible given the current code?
You can use an encoder as a channel input but it functions more like a
pot. It would probably work for your purpose if you found an encoder
with very coarse steps, but I don't think you will find one. However I
have changed one of the pots to a switch and that works a treat.

>I notice that currently the shop is sold out, are more being made or am
>I too late like I was with ersky9x? (really hoping more are being
>made!).
More are looking unlikely in the immediate future. It's a price problem
and a quality control problem, the two are well interconnected. The last
batches we had made took a lot of correcting, causing Bryan endless
hours of work. We have to pay more than double to get past these
problems. This then leads on to the other problem of having cash to pay
for them. Bryan will no doubt tell you in more depth but that's about
the story.

>If more are coming, any idea when (horrible to ask I know, but
>a vague idea would be awesome)
I think the only way you are going to get one quickly is to buy one of
the bare boards and build it. Sorry !

>Lastly, I notice when I select "open9x for gruvin9x board" that frsky
>isn't an option. I'm assuming this is just included?
I'm embarrassed to say "I don't know". I always just compile from source
and alter the makefile to enable Frsky. But your right it doesn't appear
as an option in companion9x, help anyone ? (I guess your assumption is
right).

Cam.

[Bertrand Songis]

Lastly, I notice when I select "open9x for gruvin9x board" that frsky
isn't an option. I'm assuming this is just included?

I'm embarrassed to say "I don't know". I always just compile from source and alter the makefile to enable Frsky. But your right it doesn't appear as an option in companion9x, help anyone ? (I guess your assumption is right).

Right, unless you compile yourself your FW, FrSky is always here. Unless Romolo tells me I am wrong, which is possible these days ...

Bertrand.

[Romolo Manfredini]

Yes frsky is always there,
just checked in the server script.

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[Cam]

Great, thanks guys !

--
Cam

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 7:21:45 AM UTC+13, th9xer wrote:

>I notice that currently the shop is sold out, are more being made or am
>I too late like I was with ersky9x? (really hoping more are being
>made!).
More are looking unlikely in the immediate future. It's a price problem
and a quality control problem, the two are well interconnected. The last
batches we had made took a lot of correcting, causing Bryan endless
hours of work. We have to pay more than double to get past these
problems. This then leads on to the other problem of having cash to pay
for them. Bryan will no doubt tell you in more depth but that's about
the story.

Gah, I appear to have arrived in this hobby just a little too late (or maybe too early depending on what the X9D looks like). Missing out on both the nice upgrade boards. That pretty much leaves me with an SP board and the EZT option but without all the other niceties for what amounts to almost the same price :/

I'm not brave enough to try building one myself. I have a decent amount of soldering experience but nothing close to trying to tackle that much SMD

[Cam]

>Gah, I appear to have arrived in this hobby just a little too late (or
>maybe too early depending on what the X9D looks like).

Yes, provided it fits the bill it could be the next generation for all
us hackers.

>I'm not brave enough to try building one myself. I have a decent amount
>of soldering experience but nothing close to trying to tackle that much
>SMD

If you are a competent solderer I wouldn't hesitate at having a go. I
could even find you an older version of the PCB to have a go on. I like
everyone shied away from trying SMD work, but seriously it's not that
bad, and once you have broken your SMD cherry the world of modern
electronics opens up. Check the videos out that I did, links to them are
here:

http://code.google.com/p/gruvin9x/wiki/PcbAssembly


--
Cam

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 1:04:43 PM UTC+13, th9xer wrote:

>I'm not brave enough to try building one myself. I have a decent amount
>of soldering experience but nothing close to trying to tackle that much
>SMD
If you are a competent solderer I wouldn't hesitate at having a go. I
could even find you an older version of the PCB to have a go on. I like
everyone shied away from trying SMD work, but seriously it's not that
bad, and once you have broken your SMD cherry the world of modern
electronics opens up. Check the videos out that I did, links to them are
here:

http://code.google.com/p/gruvin9x/wiki/PcbAssembly

I'll give it some thought, I'm still without a way to flash new firmware externally even if I do build it and the gprog is out of stock. I could just bring out the 6pin ISP header somewhere and use my ISP Mk II like I do already, not quite as clean but it would work.

I have done some SMD soldering before of 0603's, but nothing a the size of the ATmega size.

I don't suppose there is any way to get a gprog board (more being made, someone has a spare etc?)

Next question I guess is whats different between 4.1 and 4.2. I notice the wiki has mention of a locking up issue on power up that was fixed in 4.2 that can be fixed by dropping a resister over an existing cap, is that the only difference? I'm assuming that cap isn't in the parts BOM for 4.1 linked above?

I assume we're talking 24AWG wire into the JST connectors? What about the FrSky connector on the other end of the telemetry cable, does anyone have a E14 part number?

Psh.. look at me, I've almost convinced myself I can do this and have fun building it :)

Thanks

[Cam]

>I'll give it some thought, I'm still without a way to flash new
>firmware externally even if I do build it and the gprog is out of
>stock. I could just bring out the 6pin ISP header somewhere and use my
>ISP Mk II like I do already, not quite as clean but it would work.

No need for Gprog any more, we have a working USB boot loader (thanks to
Bryan). You can connect a USB socket straight to the main board and off
you go.

>I have done some SMD soldering before of 0603's, but nothing a the size
>of the ATmega size.

The chip is surprisingly easy, honest.

>Next question I guess is whats different between 4.1 and 4.2. I notice
>the wiki has mention of a locking up issue on power up that was fixed
>in 4.2 that can be fixed by dropping a resister over an existing cap,

My current Tx still has a V4.1 in it without the extra resistor, and I
have never seen the lock up issue. But others have so the resistor was
added.

Changes are, (I have edited the boring bits out, typos, solder mask
changes and the like, also comments added to explain):

. R117 (1K) added to B-E junction of Q3. Nearby resistor values halved.
This all to improve higher speed (125,000 Baud) signal shapes. This was
done so one of the pseudo RS232 Frsky telemetry pins could be
re-purposed to interface into a hacked DSM module, and have both a DSM
module and a FrSky module in the same transmitter at once. Think this is
redundant now due to the Tx Caddy board.

. C65 added for cautionary extra MCU power decoupling. Just cos we had
space, no issues warranted this.

. PORTH rearranged and upgraded to include GND and VCC pads.

. USB connector K6 flipped to make pin 1 GND. Cosmetic.

. R118 (10K bleed resistor) added across C63 in the soft-off circuit.

. Added pad P11 to enable easier connection to Collector-of-Q9 for
'short-to-ground' power on option (for replacement trainer jacks.) Done
to facilitate some of the trainer port hacks that exist. Cosmetic
really. (Shorting the collector of Q9 to ground forces the set ON. This
pad just makes the soldering job easier). If your not going to hack the
trainer port this doesn't matter. It works fine for me as it is.

>I assume we're talking 24AWG wire into the JST connectors?

You can buy them ready done via eBay, saves a lot of the pain, link is
in the Wiki somewhere.

>What about
>the FrSky connector on the other end of the telemetry cable, does
>anyone have a E14 part number?

I can find it for you, or better still I can donate one.

>Psh.. look at me, I've almost convinced myself I can do this and have
>fun building it :)

Have a look at http://www.th9x.com/g9x_v4_mods.zip some pics to help
you.

--
Cam

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

Just threw all the part no's into E14 and came up to $198 incl GST without the board itself

I'll need to add some 24AWG wire to that, I've actually done JST connectors before so not too worried about them (I know... I like pain ;P)

Where did you source the mini USB breakout board from the Gprog? Having it sitting in the battery compartment is a really nice solution

I've got that zip file here already, I may have a look through it, although the $200 of parts is more than I was hoping, still, just the building it will be a fun project in itself

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

What the heck, just ordered the blank board and an SD card unit (I'll be sick of soldering for a while by the time I get the board together :))

Now to get a backlight and FrSky module from HK on the way!

[Cam]

Crikey !! That's a fair bit for the parts, I guess I forget how much it
cost me.

They USB breakout board was indeed salvaged from a GProg, I am sure
either myself of Bryan will be able to find you one. It's bed time here
but I'll check tomorrow.

If you want a spare board (probably V4.0) to practice on and the FRSky
telemetry module connector email me your address. Just use the email
address this is from.

Prob takes about 4 hours ish to build the board, and as I say one you
have done it the possibilities are endless, moo ha ha !!!!!

Cam.

--
Cam

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 3:08:01 PM UTC+13, th9xer wrote:

Crikey !! That's a fair bit for the parts, I guess I forget how much it
cost me.

I'm in NZ, so that's NZD from E14. It's the MOQ that is the kicker for all the connectors, still, not to worry, you can never have enough random connectors :)

 

They USB breakout board was indeed salvaged from a GProg, I am sure
either myself of Bryan will be able to find you one. It's bed time here
but I'll check tomorrow.

That'd be awesome

 

If you want a spare board (probably V4.0) to practice on and the FRSky
telemetry module connector email me your address. Just use the email
address this is from.

After looking at the pics, I can salvage a connector for the FrSky from an old computer CDROM audio cable, they were 4 pin but will work well enough. I think I'll be ok without a spare board, as I said, I've done 0603 SMD soldering before. It's pretty hard to damage the board unless you lift a track (but that's a too much heat problem and I like to think those days are past me) so at worst I'll need to get a few spare components. not the end of the world

 

Prob takes about 4 hours ish to build the board, and as I say one you
have done it the possibilities are endless, moo ha ha !!!!!

Outstanding evil laugh ;P 

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 3:19:38 PM UTC+13, da...@blargh.co.nz wrote:

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 3:08:01 PM UTC+13, th9xer wrote:

Crikey !! That's a fair bit for the parts, I guess I forget how much it
cost me.

I'm in NZ, so that's NZD from E14. It's the MOQ that is the kicker for all the connectors, still, not to worry, you can never have enough random connectors :)

Or, from Digikey I can get it all for about $130 NZ including the $30 shipping. 

The 

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/NJM78L05UA/NJM78L05UA-ND/805773?cur=USD

has been discontinued but the suggested replacement of 

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/UA78L05CPK/296-13531-1-ND/486480

looks to be the same spec and package wise

One of the JST sockets is on backorder for over a month but I can get that from E14 for all of $0.50, much better than the $200!

[Cam]

> Prob takes about 4 hours ish to build the board, and as I say one
> you
> have done it the possibilities are endless, moo ha ha !!!!!
>
>
>Outstanding evil laugh ;P 

This really did make me LOL. Good start to the day :D

I gather all is well from the email I has CCed in on.

Good old difference on the cost from Digikey to !

Any more questions just ask !

--
Cam

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

Yup, talking with Bryan now too, just need to work out how one actually loads the bootloader capable firmware, I'm assuming it's not just part of open9x.

As Bryan said in his email to me, he's not actually sure it's documented anywhere how to get the G9X into bootloader mode in the first place. 

For the record, and so it's somewhere:

"Hold [UP] and [DOWN] buttons while powering up." ... oh and make sure "BOOTRST" flag is correct in the AVR fuses.

[Cam]

>Yup, talking with Bryan now too, just need to work out how one actually
>loads the bootloader capable firmware, I'm assuming it's not just part
>of open9x.

No it's not part of open9x. Do I take it you have some form of AVR ISP
programmer ? If so it's dead easy, if not let me know. Either way it's
not too big a deal.

>As Bryan said in his email to me, he's not actually sure it's
>documented anywhere how to get the G9X into bootloader mode in the
>first place. 
>
>For the record, and so it's somewhere:
>
>"Hold [UP] and [DOWN] buttons while powering up." ... oh and make sure
>"BOOTRST" flag is correct in the AVR fuses.

I can second that. I had to dig into the firmware to find how to
activate the bootloader, so don't worry he didn't tell me either :D


--
Cam

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:10:18 PM UTC+13, th9xer wrote:

>Yup, talking with Bryan now too, just need to work out how one actually
>loads the bootloader capable firmware, I'm assuming it's not just part
>of open9x.
No it's not part of open9x. Do I take it you have some form of AVR ISP
programmer ? If so it's dead easy, if not let me know. Either way it's
not too big a deal.

Yup, I have an AVR ISP Mk II. No handy linux machine, although I could live boot Ubuntu if I needed to. I do have AVR Studio running on Windows though or could run the windows version of avrdude

 

>As Bryan said in his email to me, he's not actually sure it's
>documented anywhere how to get the G9X into bootloader mode in the
>first place. 
>
>For the record, and so it's somewhere:
>
>"Hold [UP] and [DOWN] buttons while powering up." ... oh and make sure
>"BOOTRST" flag is correct in the AVR fuses.
I can second that. I had to dig into the firmware to find how to
activate the bootloader, so don't worry he didn't tell me either :D

Lol. One thing I did discover is there is mention in the Wiki here

http://code.google.com/p/gruvin9x/wiki/PCB

 that a USB bootloder would never fit and so couldn't be developed, since it has been, you may want to remove that from the wiki :) 

[Romolo Manfredini]

To solve issues with programmer, I took a stupid chinese 4$ usbasp programmer and I fitted it inside the radio...

--

[Cam]

>Yup, I have an AVR ISP Mk II. No handy linux machine, although I could
>live boot Ubuntu if I needed to. I do have AVR Studio running on
>Windows though or could run the windows version of avrdude

AVR studio will do just fine, it's what I use. I will email you the hex
file separately. Just burn it as you would anything else, the exception
being to set the fuses as Bryan mentioned. Then use the bootloader and
AVRDude to burn open9x in.

>Lol. One thing I did discover is there is mention in the Wiki here
>
>http://code.google.com/p/gruvin9x/wiki/PCB
>
> that a USB bootloder would never fit and so couldn't be developed,
>since it has been, you may want to remove that from the wiki :) 

Ah yes :). I our defence the bootloader was in testing for a little
while, and then we forgot :)



--
Cam

[Dave Watkins]

I could just expose the 6 ISP pins by mounting 90 degree pins on that header and cutting a hole in the side of my case too, but I'd rather have something tidier and out of sight if I can. And the smartiepants idea of a mini USB port in the battery compartment is really nice

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:24:58 PM UTC+13, th9xer wrote:

>Yup, I have an AVR ISP Mk II. No handy linux machine, although I could
>live boot Ubuntu if I needed to. I do have AVR Studio running on
>Windows though or could run the windows version of avrdude
AVR studio will do just fine, it's what I use. I will email you the hex
file separately. Just burn it as you would anything else, the exception
being to set the fuses as Bryan mentioned. Then use the bootloader and
AVRDude to burn open9x in.

So you enable that fuses just to burn the bootloader, then set them back to default? This will be on a completely blank chip 

[Cam]

>>Yup, I have an AVR ISP Mk II. No handy linux machine, although I could
>>live boot Ubuntu if I needed to. I do have AVR Studio running on
>>Windows though or could run the windows version of avrdude
>AVR studio will do just fine, it's what I use. I will email you the hex
>file separately. Just burn it as you would anything else, the exception
>being to set the fuses as Bryan mentioned. Then use the bootloader and
>AVRDude to burn open9x in.

AVR Studio is a pain in the rear in that the drivers it installs for the
AVR ISP stop you using it with AVRDude (and therefore Companion9x). As
the bootloader emulates a USBasp, you can use AVR Studio to burn the
bootloader hex, then Windows will allow you to use the bootloader with
AVRDude.

Simple !

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

Oh yeah, I have fun switching out drivers all the time, it's even more fun when you bring the arduino IDE into it too, but both it and avrdude appear happy witht he lib-usb drivers I have now 

[Cam]

>So you enable that fuses just to burn the bootloader, then set them
>back to default? This will be on a completely blank chip 

Hmm, hold on.....

From: gruvin9x\trunk\firmware\src\fuses.txt

Preferred valees for ATmega2560/1 are:

hfuse = 0b00010001 (0x11) [OCD enabled, JTAG enabled, WDT disabled (we
enable it in the firmware), EESAVE enabled, BOOT at 0x0000]

lfuse = 0b11010111 (0xd7) [CKDIV8 disabled, CKOUT disabled, Full Swing
Xtal Osc, 16K CK + 0ms reset, BOD enabled]

efuse = 0b11111100 (0xfc) [ Brown out detector (BOD) = 4.3V ]

BOOT_LOADER enabled mode:

hfuse = 0b00010000 (0x10) [OCD enabled, JTAG enabled, WDT disabled (we
enable it in the firmware), EESAVE enabled, BOOT at 0x1F000 (BOOTRST
enabled)]

So you want to burn fuses 0x10 0xd7 0xfc, then burn the bootloader with
you AVR ISP MkII, then use the bootloader for all firmware and EEPROM
operations, no more fuse changes needed.

--
Cam

[da...@blargh.co.nz]

Fantastic, it all makes sense, now I just need all the parts to arrive, and not to melt anything while soldering :) 

[Cam]

>Fantastic, it all makes sense, now I just need all the parts to arrive,
>and not to melt anything while soldering :) 

Good luck, I know the feeling well. Bed time has arrived again here.
Catch ya soon.

--
Cam

[Bryan]

On 6 February 2013 14:35, <da...@blargh.co.nz> wrote:

Just threw all the part no's into E14 and came up to $198 incl GST without the board itself

That's almost double what it should be. Damn. It was about $135, last I did it. But I got some parts from Digikey, as they're considerably cheaper.

Have you ordered yet? I may have a better solution. HOLD FIRE and let me know the current status. Might even be able to sort you out a completed v4.1 board, built by yours truly -- just realised. But have to check in cupboards and drawers.

Bryan.

[Bryan]

On 6 February 2013 19:25, <da...@blargh.co.nz> wrote:

...

Or, from Digikey I can get it all for about $130 NZ including the $30 shipping. 

Yes. That's more like it.

Oh and, I figured out what "E14" is now. I'm slow. :-P

Bryan.

[Bryan]

On 7 February 2013 13:24, Romolo Manfredini <romolo.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

To solve issues with programmer, I took a stupid chinese 4$ usbasp programmer and I fitted it inside the radio...

Others have done that, with success. However, some of the USB-asp ones don't work with the default firmware (in them.) A patch is needed, which I think Romolo also required, but perhaps forgot to mention?

In any case, we've got you a better solution now, with the bootloader and your existing AVR programmer.

[Bryan]

On 7 February 2013 13:37, Cam <th9...@gmail.com> wrote:

So you want to burn fuses 0x10 0xd7 0xfc, then burn the bootloader with you AVR ISP MkII, then use the bootloader for all firmware and EEPROM operations, no more fuse changes needed.

Looks right to me. No need to change any fuses back afterwards either. We don't bother with the self-program protection bits, since they don't really help for much, in practice.

So, set the fuses, burn the bootloader, including chip erase. Then use the bootloader to install the initial open9x firmware. You can also use your AVR programmer for the open9x firmware, but you have to disable chip-erase at that stage, lest you blow away the bootloader again.

--
Bryan.