No Growl in Leopard at all?

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Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 23, 2007, 6:43:39 AM11/23/07
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Having reluctantly adjusted to the absence of Mail notifications in Leopard, I have suddenly to deal with the fact that Growl does not now work at all - I suppose it must be something I have installed, but I am at a loss to think what.

On the plus side, I am no longer plagued by the sporadic hangs that afflicted NetNewsWire notifications in Tiger - if anyone was looking into that matter, it is no longer important to me.

Does anyone else find Leopard entirely Growless?


-- 


Nicholas J A Sanders

_____________________

semiotek


T: +44 [0]7092 153 409

n...@semiotek.org

_____________________




Chris Forsythe

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Nov 24, 2007, 6:37:57 PM11/24/07
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What in the world are you talking about? Growl works fine on 10.5. GrowlMail doesn't, but that's because apple has a private plugin setup that they changed, there are workarounds on the forums.

Instead of assuming that Growl just plain doesn't work, why not tell us what's actually occurring so that we can try to help you? It'd be appreciated.

Chris

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 24, 2007, 6:52:00 PM11/24/07
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Chris

It's just as I say - two or three days ago Growl notifications stopped altogether. It might therefore be the more correct to say that nothing is occurring, rather than to tell you what is.

(I suppose that my being a mite miffed by your not having responded to the sampling information that I had sent earlier, at your request, may - along with all the other stresses and strains of life - have helped to encourage me to be a degree more cryptic than was entirely appropriate, but nevertheless, there it is, Growl don't , and it's a mystery to me too.)

As before, I'm more than happy to accept your direction in pursuing the reason…

Nick


On 24 Nov 2007, at 23:37, Chris Forsythe wrote:

What in the world are you talking about? Growl works fine on 10.5. GrowlMail doesn't, but that's because apple has a private plugin setup that they changed, there are workarounds on the forums.

Instead of assuming that Growl just plain doesn't work, why not tell us what's actually occurring so that we can try to help you? It'd be appreciated.

bgannin

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Nov 24, 2007, 7:51:18 PM11/24/07
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Growl: Standard process of debugging and cool emotions all around go far. 

1. Is Growl running? (verify in both the preference pane and in Activity Monitor)
2. Are your applications added and configured in Growl's Applications tab?
3. Are the applications configured appropriately to use Growl? (like Adium's setup instructions)
4. Are the applications running and sending notifications (the former is simple to determine, the latter more likely the result of eliminating all of the above)
5. What display(s) have been tested? (is it particular to one, or all, or what)

Basically we need to clarify your very nebulous 'Growl don't' and the assertion that Growl on Leopard isn't working (which is false) - it's that your computer's particular configuration with Growl, Leopard, and various aspects are not working.

Meta: Each discussion should be unto itself, bringing baggage in only leads to additional problems. We are in a neutral medium that doesn't provide implicit contexts - your emotions, your tenses or speaking patterns, your anything else - and lends itself to exactly what is in front of the viewer.

- brian 'bgannin' ganninger

Chris Forsythe

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Nov 24, 2007, 7:56:44 PM11/24/07
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On Nov 24, 2007, at 5:52 PM, Nicholas Sanders wrote:

Chris

It's just as I say - two or three days ago Growl notifications stopped altogether. It might therefore be the more correct to say that nothing is occurring, rather than to tell you what is.


Is anything showing up in /Applications/Utilities/Console for GrowlHelperApp?

Is GrowlHelperApp running?

What version of Growl do you have installed?

(I suppose that my being a mite miffed by your not having responded to the sampling information that I had sent earlier, at your request, may - along with all the other stresses and strains of life - have helped to encourage me to be a degree more cryptic than was entirely appropriate, but nevertheless, there it is, Growl don't , and it's a mystery to me too.)


I'm sorry, I don't remember seeing this.

As before, I'm more than happy to accept your direction in pursuing the reason…


Indeed. Let's figure it out.

Chris

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 6:14:41 AM11/25/07
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Nothing that I can see.

Yes.

1.1.2 (a fresh install).


On 25 Nov 2007, at 00:56, Chris Forsythe wrote:

Is anything showing up in /Applications/Utilities/Console for GrowlHelperApp?

Is GrowlHelperApp running?

What version of Growl do you have installed?

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 6:32:48 AM11/25/07
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1. Growl is running.

2. Applications are configured.

3. Applications are set up just as they were when Growl was working.

4. Applications are running - I am unclear as to what you mean by "sending notifications".

5. Built in 24" display on late-2006 iMac - Growl working on MacBook.

In general, you seem to have missed the point that everything was fine at one moment, but not the next - you have also invented an assertion when I actually posed a question.

It is more than likely that the issue here is entirely specific to my situation so, having no expectations of Growl people (who I have been happy to praise on more than one occasion) and having previously had specifically requested input ignored, I felt it entirely reasonable to use a provocative subject header to get attention - it worked. Selfishly, I want Growl back - I hope you guys have your own reasons for wanting it back too.

(On a more personal note Brian, although I absolutely take your opening and closing remarks as wholly well meaning  they are also capable of being taken as patronising - maybe you don't see it now, maybe you'll see it later.)


On 25 Nov 2007, at 00:51, bgannin wrote:

Growl: Standard process of debugging and cool emotions all around go far. 

1. Is Growl running? (verify in both the preference pane and in Activity Monitor)
2. Are your applications added and configured in Growl's Applications tab?
3. Are the applications configured appropriately to use Growl? (like Adium's setup instructions)
4. Are the applications running and sending notifications (the former is simple to determine, the latter more likely the result of eliminating all of the above)
5. What display(s) have been tested? (is it particular to one, or all, or what)

Basically we need to clarify your very nebulous 'Growl don't' and the assertion that Growl on Leopard isn't working (which is false) - it's that your computer's particular configuration with Growl, Leopard, and various aspects are not working.

Meta: Each discussion should be unto itself, bringing baggage in only leads to additional problems. We are in a neutral medium that doesn't provide implicit contexts - your emotions, your tenses or speaking patterns, your anything else - and lends itself to exactly what is in front of the viewer.

Luke

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Nov 25, 2007, 7:14:52 AM11/25/07
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Hello,

I was, like Nicholas, an enthusiastic advocate of Growl on Tiger (when
I saw how elegantly it matched one of the few killer applications that
had kept me using Entourage, it was all I needed to finally dump MS
Office and switch wholeheartedly to iMail). Leopard has reversed all
of this. I was disappointed to see that Growl no longer functions with
iMail (although I live in hope that it will be restored in due
course), but when it also stopped working on other applications
(iTunes being the most obvious), I really started to miss it!

I mention this by way of encouragement not criticism! Growl is such a
useful and valuable product when it no longer functions it is
painfully missed. I will wait patiently for the issues to be resolved
and wish you, and the other dedicated developers who are working on
it, every success!

Luke




On Nov 25, 12:56 am, Chris Forsythe <ch...@growl.info> wrote:
> On Nov 24, 2007, at 5:52 PM, Nicholas Sanders wrote:
>
> > Chris
>
> > It's just as I say - two or three days ago Growl notifications
> > stopped altogether. It might therefore be the more correct to say
> > that nothing is occurring, rather than to tell you what is.
>
> Is anything showing up in /Applications/Utilities/Console for
> GrowlHelperApp?
>
> Is GrowlHelperApp running?
>
> What version of Growl do you have installed?
>
> > (I suppose that my being a mite miffed by your not having responded
> > to the sampling information that I had sent earlier, at your
> > request, may - along with all the other stresses and strains of
> > life - have helped to encourage me to be a degree more cryptic than
> > was entirely appropriate, but nevertheless, there it is, Growl
> > don't , and it's a mystery to me too.)
>
> I'm sorry, I don't remember seeing this.
>
> > As before, I'm more than happy to accept your direction in pursuing
> > the reason...

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 7:32:45 AM11/25/07
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Only it hasn't - for me some things do work, on my MacBook but not on my iMac. What prompted me to raise the issues that everything that had previously worked *under Leopard* suddenly stopped working on the latter.

Given the scale of the changes stemming from the upgrade, I'm not the least surprised that stuff broke - it is the nature and and scope of this particular break that are puzzling.


On 25 Nov 2007, at 12:14, Luke wrote:

 Leopard has reversed all of this.

Alexander Henket

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Nov 25, 2007, 7:35:16 AM11/25/07
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I've been out of the discussion for a while now, but I've seen the
subjects and discussions on the web. What I fail to see is what part
of Growl supposedly does not work?

I have Growl 1.1.2 setup on Leopard (10.5.1 currently and before on
10.5), and GrowlMail has always worked for me (ok I need to write the
defaults thing on the prompt, but that was it). Also Skype works,
OsiriX 3.0fc8 works and all other apps that I'm used to work just fine.

I really don't get why so many people say it does not work. Should I
just count my blessings or something, because it is inexplicable that
it could work? I did an upgrade install of Leopard from Tiger when it
came out. I've seen more trouble coming from fresh Leopard installs
that I never had. Other than that I don't know.

Alexander

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 7:43:21 AM11/25/07
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That would presumably be because it doesn't - why else?

It is known that Mail doesn't work, nor does Safari. Everything else that I use did work under Leopard (both iterations) until it didn't - I can't see I'd be serving anybody's interests by keeping quite about it.

NB: **I AM NOT COMPLAINING - ONLY REPORTING**.


On 25 Nov 2007, at 12:35, Alexander Henket wrote:

I really don't get why so many people say it does not work.

Peter Hosey

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Nov 25, 2007, 11:48:26 AM11/25/07
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On Nov 25, 2007, at 03:32:48, Nicholas Sanders wrote:
> 4. Applications are running - I am unclear as to what you mean by
> "sending notifications".

Growl doesn't pull data from applications; applications must push
data to it.

Please try this test app and tell us what happens:

http://boredzo.org/stuph/Simplest_Notifier_Evar-1.0.zip

Brian, if you want me to put that app's source code into the Growl
source directory's Examples subdirectory, I can do that later today.

> 1. Growl is running.

Please verify this: after running the test app above, please run this
script in the Script Editor and tell us the results:

application "GrowlHelperApp" is running

(I want to rule out whether the prefpane is lying.)

Please also run this script (*after* the previous script) and tell us
the results:

path to application "GrowlHelperApp"

> 2. Applications are configured.
>
> 3. Applications are set up just as they were when Growl was working.

Which applications?

Are you talking about in their own preferences, or only in Growl's?

PGP.sig

Adam Bell

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Nov 25, 2007, 11:57:50 AM11/25/07
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To check whether the helper app is running, use this:

tell application "System Events" to exists process "GrowlHelperApp"
--
Some minds remain open long enough for a truth to both enter and leave without processing.

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 12:13:41 PM11/25/07
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Simplest Notifier Evar [sic] is now in the Growl apps list but does not produce any notification when I run it.

The script returns "true".

The applications listed in the prefpane are:

Chax
Delivery Status
GrowlMail
GrowlMenu
HandBrake
Library Books
NetNewsWire
Simplest Notifier Evar
Synergy

I haven't changed *any* preferences from what they were before encountering the difficulty.

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 12:15:37 PM11/25/07
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It returns "true".


On 25 Nov 2007, at 16:57, Adam Bell wrote:

To check whether the helper app is running, use this:

tell application "System Events" to exists process "GrowlHelperApp"

Peter Hosey

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Nov 25, 2007, 12:20:39 PM11/25/07
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On Nov 25, 2007, at 08:57:50, Adam Bell wrote:
> To check whether the helper app is running, use this:
>
> tell application "System Events" to exists process "GrowlHelperApp"

The “is running” command was added in Leopard.

Peter Hosey

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Nov 25, 2007, 12:20:42 PM11/25/07
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On Nov 25, 2007, at 09:13:41, Nicholas Sanders wrote:
> Simplest Notifier Evar [sic] is now in the Growl apps list but does
> not produce any notification when I run it.

Interesting.

> The script returns "true".

What about the “path to” script?

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 12:23:09 PM11/25/07
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Sorry - it returns:

alias
"hund:Library:PreferencePanes:Growl.prefPane:Contents:Resources:GrowlHelperApp.app:"


On 25 Nov 2007, at 17:20, Peter Hosey wrote:

What about the “path to” script?

Peter Hosey

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Nov 25, 2007, 12:51:05 PM11/25/07
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On Nov 25, 2007, at 09:13:41, Nicholas Sanders wrote:
> Simplest Notifier Evar [sic] is now in the Growl apps list but does
> not produce any notification when I run it.

Please open the Growl preference pane, switch to the Displays tab,
take a screenshot, and send it to us.

Instructions for taking a screenshot are here:

<http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=151947>

These instructions are the same on Mac OS X 10.4 and later, except
that screenshots will be saved as PNG rather than PDF, which is fine.

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 12:53:58 PM11/25/07
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I'm OK with screenshots…

;-)


On 25 Nov 2007, at 17:51, Peter Hosey wrote:

Instructions for taking a screenshot are here:

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 1:24:46 PM11/25/07
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No need - Growl is apparently looking for a default style that isn't there! Give it something that actually exists, and everything works as expected.

This seems to beg a question or two - the first concerns what happened to the default I had chosen, the second whether it is a good idea for the user to be allowed to change the default in the first place.

For the first, as far as I can figure I must be mistaken about having Growl working under Leopard on the iMac - it must be that I actually lost Growl notifications when I did an Archive & Install, and then became confused by the fact that it was working up until then and was working on the MacBook.

I can see good reason not to have a fixed default style, so maybe there should a warning for idiots like me?

In my defence (I feel I'm needing one), I thought Hazel had flagged up all the Growl stuff when I ran the Growl uninstaller - that would be expecting too much of Hazel of course, since I was not manually trashing the prefpane.

In my further defence, I have had a very, very confusing life over the last five years…

Now I turn to the apologies - grovelling is about the best I can do and, if you don't believe I am, you can just ask my wife! Thanks for the support - I'm glad it turned out to be dumb user error.

 
On 25 Nov 2007, at 17:51, Peter Hosey wrote:

Please open the Growl preference pane, switch to the Displays tab,  
take a screenshot, and send it to us.

Chris Forsythe

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Nov 25, 2007, 4:05:43 PM11/25/07
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No need to grovel or any of that, or even apologize, you've found a
bug that we need to fix, thanks for being patient with us while going
through the process of finding the root cause.


What default did you have chosen? I'd like to get this fixed so that
nobody else has this problem in the future, knowing that will be
important. :)

Chris



On Nov 25, 12:24 pm, Nicholas Sanders <n...@semiotek.org> wrote:
> No need - Growl is apparently looking for a default style that isn't
> there! Give it something that actually exists, and everything works as
> expected.
>
> This seems to beg a question or two - the first concerns what happened
> to the default I had chosen, the second whether it is a good idea for
> the user to be allowed to change the default in the first place.
>
> For the first, as far as I can figure I must be mistaken about having
> Growl working under Leopard on the iMac - it must be that I actually
> lost Growl notifications when I did an Archive & Install, and then
> became confused by the fact that it was working up until then and was
> working on the MacBook.
>
> I can see good reason not to have a fixed default style, so maybe
> there should a warning for idiots like me?
>
> In my defence (I feel I'm needing one), I thought Hazel had flagged up
> all the Growl stuff when I ran the Growl uninstaller - that would be
> expecting too much of Hazel of course, since I was not manually
> trashing the prefpane.
>
> In my further defence, I have had a very, very confusing life over the
> last five years...

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 4:32:24 PM11/25/07
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You're very kind, but I still I am primarily at fault in that I had a default that was not part of the standard package - if one downloads a style and then chooses it as the default, it is obviously necessary that it be available. On the other hand, it would certainly be better that Growl default to its own default (as it were) in such a case.

My default was mikro, but I don't think that makes any difference. What I still find puzzling is that running the uninstall didn't get rid of that preference - that might be seen as a bug, rather than a feature.


On 25 Nov 2007, at 21:05, Chris Forsythe wrote:

What default did you have chosen? I'd like to get this fixed so that
nobody else has this problem in the future, knowing that will be
important.

bgannin

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Nov 25, 2007, 5:57:19 PM11/25/07
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What we need to have is a check that your default style is present and alert you if not, perhaps falling back to an included default (like Smoke). 

Another option would be to post the notifications using the included default (as above) along with a sticky notification that says "Your selected default display was not available" etc.

Thoughts?

- brian 'bgannin' ganninger

bgannin

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Nov 25, 2007, 6:11:07 PM11/25/07
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On Nov 25, 2007, at 3:32 AM, Nicholas Sanders wrote:

>
> 5. Built in 24" display on late-2006 iMac - Growl working on MacBook.

I didn't mean your computer display, I meant your Growl display style,
computer displays would have no relevance. I should have made this
clearer.

>
> In general, you seem to have missed the point that everything was
> fine at one moment, but not the next - you have also invented an
> assertion when I actually posed a question.

No, I didn't. I provided a list of steps to follow to isolate the
problem.

>
> It is more than likely that the issue here is entirely specific to
> my situation so, having no expectations of Growl people (who I have
> been happy to praise on more than one occasion) and having
> previously had specifically requested input ignored, I felt it
> entirely reasonable to use a provocative subject header to get
> attention - it worked. Selfishly, I want Growl back - I hope you
> guys have your own reasons for wanting it back too.

We did, thus my comments.

>
> (On a more personal note Brian, although I absolutely take your
> opening and closing remarks as wholly well meaning they are also
> capable of being taken as patronising - maybe you don't see it now,
> maybe you'll see it later.)

On the forums and mailing lists emotions and frustrations are brought
out unnecessarily. I want this project to be as hassle-free as
possible or it causes others, and myself, to choose to ignore it
because we volunteer our time to code and help users when we can. As I
stated, don't read tone or context or intent - simply the words, which
was basically a list-mom action.

All that said, I'm glad we've found the problem and have a bug that
can be addressed as well (thankfully relatively isolated)

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 6:20:39 PM11/25/07
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I gave you the benefit of the doubt before, but not this time.  


On 25 Nov 2007, at 23:11, bgannin wrote:

On the forums and mailing lists emotions and frustrations are brought  
out unnecessarily. I want this project to be as hassle-free as  
possible or it causes others, and myself, to choose to ignore it  
because we volunteer our time to code and help users when we can. As I  
stated, don't read tone or context or intent - simply the words, which  
was basically a list-mom action.

bgannin

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Nov 25, 2007, 6:38:59 PM11/25/07
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*sigh*

Nicholas,

Your original email stated in the title and body that Growl did not work in Leopard, which was easily proven wrong on both the mailing list and forums. A more accurate description, even based on the contents, would be "Growl stopped working for me" but you instead chose a more inflammatory description to garner attention.

Your words: "Does anyone else find Leopard entirely Growless?"

Your followup email stated that you were frustrated because Chris ignored a sample you sent (which still hasn't been found to my knowledge) and that personal problems possibly made you more frustrated. 

Your words: "I suppose that my being a mite [sic] miffed by your not having responded to the sampling information that I had sent earlier, at your request, may - along with all the other stresses and strains of life - have helped to encourage me to be a degree more cryptic than was entirely appropriate"

All of these are extraneous and should not have come into play in this thread when the real cause was a missing file. I'm done with this thread, I would hope you are as well. 

- brian 'bgannin' ganninger

Nicholas Sanders

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Nov 25, 2007, 6:51:49 PM11/25/07
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Nope - the thread is of no consequence, but you need to learn not to patronise.


On 25 Nov 2007, at 23:38, bgannin wrote:

All of these are extraneous and should not have come into play in this thread when the real cause was a missing file. I'm done with this thread, I would hope you are as well. 

Alexander Henket

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Nov 26, 2007, 12:13:38 PM11/26/07
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It is known that Mail doesn't work,

It may be known to you, but I just told you Growl and GrowlMail work on my machine so mileage apparently varies. 

nor does Safari.

I don't use GrowlSafari, but I just tried it today indeed that was the only one that doesn't work so far.

Alexander

bgannin

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Nov 26, 2007, 10:03:54 PM11/26/07
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On Nov 26, 2007, at 9:13 AM, Alexander Henket wrote:

>
>> It is known that Mail doesn't work,
>
> It may be known to you, but I just told you Growl and GrowlMail work
> on my machine so mileage apparently varies.

I believe "It is known" refers to the fact that I posted a
compatibility page on the forums which stated GrowlMail is
unsupported, so his assertion was perfectly valid. You may not have
experienced a problem yet, but we [the Growl development team] will
not support any version of GrowlMail on Leopard right now or any
problems it causes (Mail had a swath of changes and GrowlMail was
quite fragile.)

>
>> nor does Safari.
>
>
> I don't use GrowlSafari, but I just tried it today indeed that was
> the only one that doesn't work so far.

Thus proving the compatibility page right.

You might not be aware of it, but growlnotify is also broken on
Leopard, as listed in that thread. Now we are all up to speed on what
is and isn't supported.

- brian 'bgannin' ganninger

Alexander Henket

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Nov 26, 2007, 10:39:14 PM11/26/07
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Thanks for getting me back into the loop.

Alexander

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