Fwd: New home for 9 week old Leonberger

[virgin...@comcast.net]

Ok I just got this in the mail this morning! I am out of state until Monday. Anyone available to talk to this person? I am going to email him back and see if I can find out who the breeder is. We don't want a dozen people contacting him, so before contacting him, let me know.

V

Sent from my iPad

Begin forwarded message:

From: Ian Seattle <ianse...@live.com>
Date: April 18, 2014 at 8:00:14 AM PDT
To: "virgin...@comcast.net" <virgin...@comcast.net>
Subject: New home for 9 week old Leonberger

Hi Virginia,

So sorry to contact you out of the blue. I found your name on the Leonberger Club of the Northwest website. 

We live in Seattle and have a wonderful 9-week old leonberger puppy. We purchased from a breeder and he has been so great and an incredibly quick to learn pup. Unfortunately, we found that our little girl is very allergic, and we didn't realize she would be until we were a week into it--she hasn't been that close to dogs before, and the trainer told us it's best to keep the puppy away from young kids until both get comfortable. It never crossed our mind since My wife and I both grew up with large dogs. 

As hard as it is, we need to do what's best for us and for him. We are trying to find a good home for him somewhere in the Northwest and have no idea how to do that aside from craigslist. We are hoping to do it soon because we are worried we will get too attached and in turn, he might get too attached to us. 

Since you guys are so ingrained in the world of leonbergers, is there anyone you know that could help us place him in a home? 

Again, sorry about the email out of the blue. Thanks so much and have a great day!

Ian

206-910-1500

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

Oh my yes - I have such a patient, long waiting list for my pups, as Summer's last litter never materialized. If no one else closer by contacts you Virginia, please send them my name & email! 

 I LOVE this group 3 - it's SO helpful - especially for things like this!! happy spring y'all ! Cindy

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[virgin...@comcast.net]

A bit more information and a photo.

Virginia

---

From: "Ian Seattle" <ianse...@live.com>
To: "Virgin...@comcast.net" <virgin...@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:26:00 AM
Subject: RE: New home for 9 week old Leonberger

Hi

Thanks so much for the quick response! The breeder it out of Missouri actually. We were going to contact them as a last effort if we couldn't find someone in the area. Leos seems so perfect for the PNW, so we would rather he stay out here. Also, we didn't want to have to fly the little boy out there. 

I've attached a picture of him incase you wanted to see the little guy.  Oh and feel free to give me a call if it's easier. That you again for the quick response. I truly appreciate it. 

Ian

 

---

Subject: Re: New home for 9 week old Leonberger
From: virgin...@comcast.net
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 08:11:03 -0700
To: ianse...@live.com

Hi Ian

We should be able to help. Who is the breeder? Have you contacted them yet?

Virginia

Sent from my iPad

[BCBU...@aol.com]

If you want me to call?  I can do that.  We need to find out who the breeder is, if it's an breeder from the LCA, we need to let them know and give them an opportunity to work this out.  Hopefully, there will be a home with one of Cindy's people.

 

Betsy 

 

In a message dated 4/18/2014 8:10:35 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, virgin...@comcast.net writes:

Ok I just got this in the mail this morning! I am out of state until Monday. Anyone available to talk to this person? I am going to email him back and see if I can find out who the breeder is. We don't want a dozen people contacting him, so before contacting him, let me know.

V

Sent from my iPad

Begin forwarded message:

From: Ian Seattle <ianse...@live.com>
Date: April 18, 2014 at 8:00:14 AM PDT
To: "virgin...@comcast.net" <virgin...@comcast.net>

Subject: New home for 9 week old Leonberger

Hi Virginia,

So sorry to contact you out of the blue. I found your name on the Leonberger Club of the Northwest website. 

We live in Seattle and have a wonderful 9-week old leonberger puppy. We purchased from a breeder and he has been so great and an incredibly quick to learn pup. Unfortunately, we found that our little girl is very allergic, and we didn't realize she would be until we were a week into it--she hasn't been that close to dogs before, and the trainer told us it's best to keep the puppy away from young kids until both get comfortable. It never crossed our mind since My wife and I both grew up with large dogs. 

As hard as it is, we need to do what's best for us and for him. We are trying to find a good home for him somewhere in the Northwest and have no idea how to do that aside from craigslist. We are hoping to do it soon because we are worried we will get too attached and in turn, he might get too attached to us. 

Since you guys are so ingrained in the world of leonbergers, is there anyone you know that could help us place him in a home? 

Again, sorry about the email out of the blue. Thanks so much and have a great day!

Ian

206-910-1500

--

[BCBU...@aol.com]

Cute! 

 

Betsy

 

In a message dated 4/18/2014 8:47:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, virgin...@comcast.net writes:

A bit more information and a photo.

Virginia

---

From: "Ian Seattle" <ianse...@live.com>
To: "Virgin...@comcast.net" <virgin...@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:26:00 AM

Subject: RE: New home for 9 week old Leonberger

Hi

Thanks so much for the quick response! The breeder it out of Missouri actually. We were going to contact them as a last effort if we couldn't find someone in the area. Leos seems so perfect for the PNW, so we would rather he stay out here. Also, we didn't want to have to fly the little boy out there. 

I've attached a picture of him incase you wanted to see the little guy.  Oh and feel free to give me a call if it's easier. That you again for the quick response. I truly appreciate it. 

Ian

---

Subject: Re: New home for 9 week old Leonberger
From: virgin...@comcast.net
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 08:11:03 -0700
To: ianse...@live.com

Hi Ian

We should be able to help. Who is the breeder? Have you contacted them yet?

Virginia

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2014, at 8:00 AM, Ian Seattle <ianse...@live.com> wrote:

Hi Virginia,

So sorry to contact you out of the blue. I found your name on the Leonberger Club of the Northwest website. 

We live in Seattle and have a wonderful 9-week old leonberger puppy. We purchased from a breeder and he has been so great and an incredibly quick to learn pup. Unfortunately, we found that our little girl is very allergic, and we didn't realize she would be until we were a week into it--she hasn't been that close to dogs before, and the trainer told us it's best to keep the puppy away from young kids until both get comfortable. It never crossed our mind since My wife and I both grew up with large dogs. 

As hard as it is, we need to do what's best for us and for him. We are trying to find a good home for him somewhere in the Northwest and have no idea how to do that aside from craigslist. We are hoping to do it soon because we are worried we will get too attached and in turn, he might get too attached to us. 

Since you guys are so ingrained in the world of leonbergers, is there anyone you know that could help us place him in a home? 

Again, sorry about the email out of the blue. Thanks so much and have a great day!

Ian

206-910-1500

[Andie Holsten]

I got the same email this morning.

I have already put Ian and Cindy in contact with each other.

Andie

---

From: BCBU...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:49:02 -0400
Subject: Re: New home for 9 week old Leonberger
To: group...@googlegroups.com

[virgin...@comcast.net]

Betsy, do you want to try calling them and seeing who the breeder is?  I am presuming that it is a puppy mill coming from Missouri, but maybe not.  Let us know what they say on the list so we can all keep informed.

We also need to be sure this isn't a scam - I don't think it is, but we need to be careful, especially if they want money.

Virginia

---

From: BCBU...@aol.com
To: group...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:49:02 AM
Subject: Re: New home for 9 week old Leonberger

[Peggy Atchley]

If it’s Missouri, it’s likely that Fall River kennel, which indeed is a puppy mill.  Any responsible breeder would take the pup back as there would likely be a waiting list, but it seems as if the owner would rather not fly the pup back.  I do know that Cindy has a big list of people who had wanted a pup from Summer, so perhaps that’s the best way to go with this.

 

Too bad for the pup, but the owner does seem to want to do the right thing by him...

 

Peggy

[Tiffanie Coe]

If Cindy cannot help, I'm VP of LeoPALs and we can take him in & place him.  We have a database full of approved homes & people wanting a rescue.

Cindy let me know.  We can step in & and I take care of all the paperwork and fostering if LeoPALs is involved.

Thanks,
Tiff

Thirty-one Consultant 200885
www.mythirtyone.com/200885

doTERRA IPC 186146
www.doterra.myvoffice.com/tiffanieguibord

LeoPALs a 501(c)3 Organization
www.leopals.org

Ridingbank Kaibree Derwyn - Derwyn
AKC GCH CH, UKC CH & BIMBS, RBIMBS, Int. CH ElDorado's Diamond Breeze, CGC - Aira
BluDrift's Bold Lion's Roar - Leo
My Angel Bevard's Freddercke, CGC - Marek

[Cindy]

If you want me to call, as part of Leopals, I can do so. Just let me know.

Cindy Stratton

iPhone 

--

[Virginia Reid]

Thanks Cindy. I think we might have options, but let's see. Right now Betsy is going to call them and try to get more info.

Virginia

Sent from my iPhone

[Virginia Reid]

Thanks Tiffanie

Let's see what Betsy finds out, then we will proceed.

V

Sent from my iPhone

[Don James]

"The breeder is out of Missouri".  Good luck getting them to take back the puppy.

--

[Tiffanie Coe]

Ian just called and spoke to me.

Him & his wife need to speak tonight.

There is no need for anyone to make contact with the family.

I'll post an update after Iran speaks to his wife.

Thanks,
Tiff

Thirty-one Consultant 200885
www.mythirtyone.com/200885

doTERRA IPC 186146
www.doterra.myvoffice.com/tiffanieguibord

LeoPALs a 501(c)3 Organization
www.leopals.org

Ridingbank Kaibree Derwyn - Derwyn
AKC GCH CH, UKC CH & BIMBS, RBIMBS, Int. CH ElDorado's Diamond Breeze, CGC - Aira
BluDrift's Bold Lion's Roar - Leo
My Angel Bevard's Freddercke, CGC - Marek

[virgin...@comcast.net]

Thanks Tiffanie

V

---

From: "Tiffanie Coe" <tiffa...@gmail.com>
To: group...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 3:46:07 PM
Subject: Re: New home for 9 week old Leonberger

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

ok thank Tiff, I'll let you know. I just emailed Ian and we'll hopefully chat tonight. C

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

ok, I can stand by. I gave Ian my number if he wants to phone me. I will certainly help if he asks. Cindy (K)

[BCBU...@aol.com]

Spoke with Ian, super nice guy.  He brought the puppy from Timberpack in MO.  He paid $1600.00 for the puppy, and doesn't expect to get that back, but would like to get something for the puppy, but most importantly, he wants the puppy to be placed in a good home.  Cindy, I gave him your phone number, so expect a call.  If he can't find a buyer for his puppy, I told him rescue would help him rehome the puppy, and Tiffany has that covered.

 

I tried looking up the Canadian breeders on the LCA site and there wasn't any info for them.  Did you all stop being members of the LCA?

 

Take care,

 

Betsy

 

 

 

 

[virgin...@comcast.net]

I wonder how he found them - I couldn't find anything about Timberpack on Google.

---

From: BCBU...@aol.com
To: group...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 5:36:10 PM
Subject: Re: New home for 9 week old Leonberger

[JULIE SCHAFFERT]

I'm just catching up with this. I'm still an LCA kennel. 

Julie. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

OK, Ian and I spoke on the phone and I'm onto it! Thanks for the extra info Betsy.

Some folks are away for the long weekend so it might take a few runs, because at the moment when I tried calling 4 people, nobody seems to be in!

There are just a few of us Cannucks left on the LCA breeders list, and we're still members in good standing. So far.........(-;  Cindy

[Mary Ruggiero-Smith]

did you find anyone yet, would be glad to talk to someone, I have someone on my list for a boy from that area, they may love to take him

 

Happiness is a warm puppy.  ~Charles M. Schulz
Please visit leosforu.com
Happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one's values. ~ Ayn Rand

[Ginny Bartholomay]

http://www.puppyfind.com/redirect/?acct_id=10738&list_id=0p1ks69p50

 

Here is the link to Timberpath

 

Ginny Bartholomay

G4 Marketing Group

 

825 S. Waukegan Road

Suite A8-126

Lake Forest, IL   60045

 

PH:  847-918-1754

Fax: 847-918-1802

 

Visit  our Website:  www.g4marketing.com

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

Give me a few hours, I just left a total of 8 messages to 8 different families. Some by email, & some I left a phone message.....later, Cindy

[BCBU...@aol.com]

A friend of their's bought a puppy from Timberpack and told him about them. 

 

Betsy

[BCBU...@aol.com]

Julie & others from Canada, you need to write Sharon Betts and let her know about it.

 

This is the link for the Canadian breeders.

 

http://www.leonbergerclubofamerica.info/canadian-breeders/

 

 

Betsy

 

 

In a message dated 4/18/2014 5:47:57 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, leonb...@shaw.ca writes:

I'm just catching up with this. I'm still an LCA kennel. 

Julie. 

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Apr 2014, at 05:42 pm, virgin...@comcast.net wrote:

[Bonnie Dankanich]

http://www.puppyfind.com/redirect/?acct_id=10738&list_id=g9n871bb88 

Look up Timberpath.  I'm in Seattle if anyone wants any help with this.  He looks like a sweet pup.  George would love him!  So tempting

Bonnie

[BCBU...@aol.com]

Thank's for catching that. 

 

Betsy

 

In a message dated 4/18/2014 6:03:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, gi...@g4marketing.com writes:

http://www.puppyfind.com/redirect/?acct_id=10738&list_id=0p1ks69p50

 

Here is the link to Timberpath

 

Ginny Bartholomay

G4 Marketing Group

 

825 S. Waukegan Road

Suite A8-126

Lake Forest, IL   60045

 

PH:  847-918-1754

Fax: 847-918-1802

 

Visit  our Website:  www.g4marketing.com

 

From: group...@googlegroups.com [mailto:group...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of virgin...@comcast.net

Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 7:43 PM
To: group...@googlegroups.com

[lori...@frontier.com]

Hi:

The guy just called me also .. does seem to want to do the right thing for the pup .. wouldn't mind getting some of his $$ back but mainly, a good home .. kennel is timberpath in Missouri ..

Lori

On Friday, April 18, 2014 6:03 PM, Jurgen & Cindy Koppen <tck...@xplornet.ca> wrote:

Give me a few hours, I just left a total of 8 messages to 8 different families. Some by email, & some I left a phone message.....later, Cindy

On 2014-04-18, at 6:00 PM, Mary Ruggiero-Smith wrote:

did you find anyone yet, would be glad to talk to someone, I have someone on my list for a boy from that area, they may love to take him

 

Happiness is a warm puppy.  ~Charles M. Schulz
Please visit leosforu.com
Happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one's values. ~ Ayn Rand

On Friday, April 18, 2014 5:51 PM, Jurgen & Cindy Koppen <tck...@xplornet.ca> wrote:

OK, Ian and I spoke on the phone and I'm onto it! Thanks for the extra info Betsy.

Some folks are away for the long weekend so it might take a few runs, because at the moment when I tried calling 4 people, nobody seems to be in!

There are just a few of us Cannucks left on the LCA breeders list, and we're still members in good standing. So far.........(-;  Cindy

On 2014-04-18, at 5:42 PM, virgin...@comcast.net wrote:

I wonder how he found them - I couldn't find anything about Timberpack on Google.

[virgin...@comcast.net]

He is sure calling and emailing a lot of people. Either it is a scam or they are desperate! Maybe it is better to let Tiffanie pull him and then if Cindy or MA or someone else has someone who is willing to take him, it can be done that way or if not go to rescue? Maybe Tiffanie and Cindy can talk? If it is real, I just don't want him to post to Craigs list

Sent from my iPad

[Carl Bodenstein]

Given their circumstance, with dog allergy in their child, it would be my preference to give the child away...

Just kidding.

I think !

Carl

[Tiffanie Coe]

He called a few breeders and was given my name.  I took the call while at work.

LeoPals has available homes that he could slide right into.

I have a real concern with anyone paying / reimbursing for this puppy.  As more puppy mills develop and situations like this arise, by offering compensation one sends a message that "Hey, don't worry that you didn't do your homework, these are sought after dogs & can be placed."

As a breeder, I would want a puppy family to stay on my list and would not offer a puppy mill dog to them because to the wrong person it could send the message that the LCA puppies are no better than a puppy mill puppy.  Health testing & the LCA breeding guidelines are not worth the price to pay for a pup, etc.   

Our rescue group does not buy puppies, we are a registered 501(c)3 and operate solely on donations.  I let Ian know this so he would not expect payment from me.

When Ian spoke to me today, I offered to leave work and pick the puppy up Friday night.  He said he needed to talk to his wife.

From a rescue perspective, we always ask if the breeder has been contacted.  Ian told me he contacted them, but they are not returning phone calls.  He told other people a different story.

I asked him what the contract said as far as returning the dog and explained that any reputable breeder would have a return clause.  This was my gentle way of educating him rather than lecturing.  Just a simple sentence, asking a standard question.

Whether a breeder can actually take the dog back at the specific time is not the point, the point is that on all of our rescues the breeder is contacted. 

Ian told me he would call me either way on Saturday.

I will keep the list posted if he follows through with that.

Thanks,
Tiffanie

Thirty-one Consultant 200885
www.mythirtyone.com/200885

doTERRA IPC 186146
www.doterra.myvoffice.com/tiffanieguibord

LeoPALs a 501(c)3 Organization
www.leopals.org

Ridingbank Kaibree Derwyn - Derwyn
AKC GCH CH, UKC CH & BIMBS, RBIMBS, Int. CH ElDorado's Diamond Breeze, CGC - Aira
BluDrift's Bold Lion's Roar - Leo
My Angel Bevard's Freddercke, CGC - Marek

[virgin...@comcast.net]

Thanks Tiffanie,

You raise excellent points about not paying and not having the puppy go to families on breeders lists. Let us know what happens.

Virginia

Sent from my iPad

[BCBU...@aol.com]

Tiffanie, I mostly agree with you, and a few years back, it would been 100 percent.  But the puppy is the one to suffer here and Ian made mention of putting the puppy for sale on craigslist. 

 

Betsy 

[Mary Ruggiero-Smith]

I in the past have had puppy people on my list get puppies from Mo kennel.  Nothing we can do to stop this type of breedings but we shouldnot let the puppy suffer.  BUT I agree the owner should be willing to give the puppy up willing and without cost especially if his child will suffer the longer her keeps him....OY!  people never cease to amaze me.

 

Happiness is a warm puppy.  ~Charles M. Schulz
Please visit leosforu.com
Happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one's values. ~ Ayn Rand

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

good points Tiff!!!

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

Hi all, we're making some progress. I talked to Ian last night.

  I found a mid aged couple in our town here that is looking into possibly getting the puppy. I talked to him (Geoff) last night & then sent him everything that I could think of that he should know. I asked about reg. papers too, as there is virtually zip on that website about registered names etc. I even phoned the breeder, pretending to be looking for a puppy. I asked her about health tests and the said they were not listed on the site because they didn't submit them to OFA. She said they had their vet do everything "in house". - Eyes, & hips, elbow & knee x-rays. Didn't mention LPN1 or blood panel. If it was me, I'd ask for paper copies - proof of all that. 

Yes, Tiff we can talk anytime. My # is 604-483-7762.

  If this one doesn't work out, we'll know soon. Cindy

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

I tried this link a few times but always got "page not found". I wrote Bev Travis and told her, as I didn't have Sharon's email handy. Cindy

[Cindy]

Tiffany,

I agree with you.

I could not have said this any better.

Cindy Stratton

iPhone 

[Patricia McDaniel]

It's very odd when he was talking to me he kept repeated that he had to talk to his wife.  Makes things look very fishy.  Wouldn't they have talked before if the kids were so allergic to them.

Pat
El Dorado Leonbergers
Desperado's Diamond Lil (Lil), LCA-RN, AKC-RN, CGC, TD, NW-1
UKC CH El Dorado's Diamonds to Emeralds (Eme)
Beloved AKC CH and LCA CH Desperado's Apache Tears, CGC, TD, LCA-RN, AKC-RN, LCA-RA (8-21-05 to 9-15-12)

Confidentiality Notice: This communication, and any files attached,
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you.

[Carl Bodenstein]

All,

Hey, speaking a a guy and a husband, a man ALWAYS says he needs to talk to his wife !

Whether he does or not is another story !

Carl

[Mary Ruggiero-Smith]

right again Carl.

 

Happiness is a warm puppy.  ~Charles M. Schulz
Please visit leosforu.com
Happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one's values. ~ Ayn Rand

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

haha!! beautifully said Carl!! 

BTW, things are still in progress. I'll let you know when they have come to a conclusion - one way or another. 

Cindy (K)

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

Hi all, I got these #'s from Ian who read them off the paperwork that came with the puppy. It was interesting to find that.... when I tried the # of the dam and then the sire, in the Worldwide Data Base for Leonbergers - they did not recognize them. Has anyone got any ideas of another way to "legitimize" the purebred factor?? Thanks, Cindy

Litter-WS46622801.

Sire-WS38370602

Dame-WS43058401

Pet ID-LK2-21014-1

[virgin...@comcast.net]

Looking online I stumbled across someone who says she thinks Fall Mist and Timber Path are one and the same, just using different names.  She said some of the photos are the same on both sites. She was looking for a Berner and luckily knew to steer clear of Falls Mist. She apparently ended up with a Berner from a breeder on the Berner club site.

Sent from my iPad

[Jennifer Richardson]

Ah yes, because having all the health tests done in house with no results for someone who is not an optomologist or radiologist makes so much sense. Do people asking those questions fall for that?

On the AKC site I found this but then could not find the number of the dam you posted.

Timber Path Kodiak
WS38370602

[Ginny Bartholomay]

I checked the numbers and the parents are registered.  The litter/puppy number does not come up maybe because the new owner was given the paperwork and hasn’t sent it in to the AKC.  Not sure what the Pet ID number is and it would be helpful to ask which microchip company the owner got paperwork for – Avid, HomeAgain , AKC or other.

 

Ginny Bartholomay

G4 Marketing Group

 

825 S. Waukegan Road

Suite A8-126

Lake Forest, IL   60045

 

PH:  847-918-1754

Fax: 847-918-1802

 

Visit  our Website:  www.g4marketing.com

 

--

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

  Thanks for checking the #'s Ginny, and I presume you went direct to the AKC site. I think I was running "out of steam" yesterday. I thought of doing that after I went to bed. (-;

  There's been no news yet this morning so I don't know how it went yesterday. My puppy people were supposed to meet Ian in Blaine, WA, but not sure if the whole thing went through. Mary also talked to Ian yesterday, so he knows there are quite a few of us that are trying to make it work. 

  It'll all come out fine in the end I suspect, just a bit bumpy in the "middle". (-;  Cindy

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

that's interesting.......Hmmm. I have steered folks away from Fall Mist for quite some time. C

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

So the sire showed up, but no dam, that is strange. Yeah, Ian didn't have a clue what questions to ask sadly. )-;

[Carl Bodenstein]

This is Brenda of Brenda and Carl Bodenstein-- Sheba's family..  I've been doing some fast research and for your interest and future info. I found the following web locations of intrest--

https://www.facebook.com/ILEODB/posts/695530840478038?stream_ref=10     ( Also look at the comments)

http://www.timberpath.com/Our Leonberger Puppies.html     I've never seen a Leo male -even out of coat-that looks like "Kody" (the head shape seem off to me also)  but Sheba is just our 2nd Leo.  and I'm clearly no judge.

http://ileodata.com/search.php?field=Kennel&search=Twin+Fall&Submit=Search+Now     

This likely won't have any affect on finding this pup a home BUT to me it's a real red flag about future health issues with this kennel.  I hope they spay the pup. First link seems to verify the link between the old  "Fall Mist" and the " Timber Path kennel.

 Also find the Twin falls web site interesting for 2 other reason.  ALL puppies sold as "pet "quality" and no AKC  "papers" unless more money is paid and No pedigree/line  listing of breading dogs.

Is there any way to get pedigrees from the numbers that were given and see if the "Twin Fall " dogs are part of the line of this little pup.  

Now I'm just plain curious and horrified.  

Brenda Bodenstein

[Carl Bodenstein]

Brenda  here, again.   Other things that bothers me.  

http://www.timberpath.com/index.html    Toward the bottom of the page they start with saying they are doing service dogs for vets and are asking for donations and sponsorships.   NO mention about what type of training and NO mention about being a registered 501C3 charitable organization.  They are wrong-- the VA does approve service dogs through the VA medical but it is VERY underfunded and the wait list for service members approved and who need service dogs is huge!!!  There are special service dog training programs that the military does work with.   

Also if you go to the  "Guarantee page" http://www.timberpath.com/Our%20Health%20Guarantee.html  I find some things strange.  Only 1 year guarantee for "fatal" genetic conditions. Requirement that you must buy and prepay for 1 year of some type of "required " NuVet Vitamins- which "has been proven to boost the immune system, enhance coat and help with the prevention of hip and elbow Dysplasia"  to even get the 1 year guarantee.    Has anyone heard of this stuff.  Also look on the forms- a "no return of pup clause", and also on the form " have been presented with the current Medical history provided by Fall Mist Ranch on ___________. This puppy represents a Companion/Pet in: Excellent___ Good ___Fair___ Poor____ Health. I have recorded the Micro-chip # for my records"   Clearly when they cut and pasted and set up the Timber Path web site they didn't change everything!!!   Also how old is "Timber Path Kodiak" Timber Path Kodiak  WS38370602  if they have only been Timber path kennel since mid to late 2013???  Maybe that's where they picked the Timber Path name from??   Very interesting- clearly my lack of knowledge  is showing .  I can only imagine how confusing this all is for a new person seeking to find a dog using the internet.

 OK  I'll stop now before I make myself crazy and become even more OCD but I thought that you guys should know about this since you might have to deal with clients that ask you about this place as another option.     

Best Brenda

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

Cindy back again......yeah, I know - I read all that stuff off their site too. What a load of sloppy B.S. - none of it makes me feel great. )-; 

As you say Brenda - the more you read - the crazier you get!!!  But  now it's about the puppy at this point.........

Ok, here's the update. The Thompsons (Geoff and Milly) have picked up the puppy and are on their way home. We just spoke on their cell.

   They clearly know the risk, they know the breeder is shoddy, but they want to give the little guy a chance at having a good home / a good life. - & I am "there" for them - 24/7.

  They will neuter the boy when he's old enough, meanwhile they will feed him, house him, care for him & love him to the best of their ability. They've been on my puppy wait list for almost 2 years and we've visited in person and had lots of phone chats. They are not the issue so they'll be fine. They are very capable.

  AND Sure - I'd like to give the breeders a "shake" but where does one start?? And there are SO many like them. It's heartbreaking. 

  

In a week or so, I'll send along an update from Geoff & Milly with a photo, so you can see how they're all doing. Back later, and thank you all for your help in digging up the "dirt" - THAT made a BIG pile. Cheers, Cindy  

[cjboden]

So happy that a good home has been found.  Congratulations and thanks for all the hard work by those on this list who made this possible.  Looking forward to adorable puppy pictures.  

Happy Easter to all.

Brenda

[virgin...@comcast.net]

I am so happy that the puppy didn't end up on Craigs list! Did the Thompsons have to pay anything for the puppy? It seems like this story would make a great "Get Jesse" ( for those of you in the Seattle area) story. Something about the perils of purchasing pets online and not checking out the breed organizations first.

Sent from my iPad

[BCBU...@aol.com]

Cindy, thanks for finding the puppy a home!  Glad to see he'll be in good hands and you're there for support. 

 

 

Betsy

[Don James]

It's damn lucky, IMHO, that we have so many out there who are willing to look the other way when it comes to righting the wrongs created by losers like Timber Path (i.e. Fall's Mist) and do the right thing for the dog. It's certainly not his fault that he was brought into the world for less than honorable purposes.  I commend and thank all of you who have taken the time to get involved.

[Carl Bodenstein]

Folks, 

To change the topic, but it is raised by this little guy finding a home and eventually to be neutered.

I have not checked with Leo people on health advice, but there is now significant literature in the veterinary field indicating that neutering of males should be delayed until after one year of age.  All sorts of health benefits LATER ON, to the delay, besides the obvious conformation changes that delay invokes.

The biggest study is in Brown Labradors and was extremely conclusive in favor of delay to at least one year of age.  If anyone is interested I will post the article somewhere, or get a reference that you can pull up.  It was extremely well done and fairly long term.  Of particular interest, a significantly higher rate of various cancers was seen later in life in the early neutered group.

This came into play when I had a Berner pup and the breeder demanded neutering before 6 months of age, and I refused.  This was many years ago and based on loose evidence, but lots of theoretical advantages to waiting on male castration till over a year.  My younger son is now in veterinary school and he emailed me about a year ago "Damn, Dad, you were right after all !".  Amazing that the old man can be right at least once in a while !  Kids !  Many of you know I am a neonatologist, so reproductive science and early infant health are issues I deal with regularly.

I am NOT seeking opinions, but more interested in if this information is part of the breeder recommendations for non-show, companion dogs that are produced out of official and properly registered litters.

Thanks !

Carl

[Carl Bodenstein]

Now you all see why I ALWAYS talk to MY wife, Brenda, about anything !

Carl

[Don James]

Pretty simple.  If you must neuter or spay (and I'm not sure exactly why that would be necessary at all**), neither should be done before 2 years of age.  There is ample evidence that early S-N can not only be very harmful to your dog's health but can also affect their ability to mature fully (especially in males).

** I mention this because the preponderance of opinion (at least in this country) seems to be that if the dog is not going to be shown nor bred, they should be spayed or neutered.  Europeans figured out years ago this is not necessary.  If you are a responsible pet owner, why would spaying or neutering ever enter the conversation?

[Bonnie Dankanich]

Don,

The key words you said are "If you are a responsible pet owner, ". We all know that there are many irresponsible pet owners, hence everyone is encouraged to spay and neuter.  Just walk into any shelter in the US and you see why they encourage it.

So happy this pup landed in a good home.  I wish more people would do their homework so these puppy mills could be put out of business.

Bonnie

[Carl Bodenstein]

All,

I really did not want to argue whether spay and neuter is ever needed, and surely do not want to engage in a discussion of the meaning of "responsible" pet owner.  Personally I have had males un-neutered all their lives and they have done fine.  Now that I have a breeding female in the household and our un-neutered (at the time) adult male Hovawart was interested in the first several un-bred heats, it appeared a very logical and practical time to neuter Hooghan.  In my opinion this was much more humane, allowing the two companions their normal relationship, than trying to keep them separated or ending up with a Leowart or a Hovaberger.  There ARE other reasons to neuter a dog.  For what it is worth, WSU does not teach almost any reproductive science in their small animal veterinary courses, as they believe all pets should be obtained by rescue from animal sanctuaries and all should be neutered.  

Again, I am not here to do other than try to understand the recommendations of Leonberger breeders as to timing of neutering males, WHEN desired by the new owner.  Is it an established practice to recommend delay of neutering male Leo pups until at least one year of age, for which there is established data as to the long term health benefits?  If not, I encourage breeders to consider this recommendation in their discussions with prospective owners.

Carl

[Jurgen & Cindy Koppen]

Don't know about the money thing yet. they just got home so I'll give them some time...Cindy

[Peggy Atchley]

Thanks for sending this information!  Unfortunately there are many unsuspecting buyers out there who don’t know to go to the LCA website to find a responsible breeder, who easily fall prey to folks with what seems to them to be a good kennel website...  In the comments below that you posted someone suggested that the LCA post about kennels that are suspected of being puppy mills.  While I wish that were possible, in the LCA code od ethics, it states something to the effect that you can’t libel another breeder or member and must use decorum in relations with all.  So the LCA in effect can’t list “negative” reviews of kennels, but must rely on positive educational experiences for promoting LCA breeders.  This is what I do whenever I get contacted with regarding finding a puppy- I ALWAYS thanks them for searching for a puppy from an LCA breeder, and explain why this is so important.  But there will always be those folks who think that a cheap puppy is a good deal, and I don’t really know of any way to stop that, especially since AKC doesn’t do any inquiry or research when someone registers a litter.

 

I thought it was interesting (sadly) that timber Path or Falls River, or whoever they decide to be at the moment stated on their website that their Leonbergers didn’t suffer from any of the diseases that the LCA says sometimes affects the breed.  I remember on their old website their condemnation of the LCA was worded even stronger...  Just goes to show that thinking folks refrain from negative comments about others, but the others have no such scruples...

 

It’ll be interesting to see how this turns out, and I hope for the sake of that poor puppy who had no say in being born will turn out to have a good loving home!

 

Peggy

[Peggy Atchley]

Well, I just read Cindy’s email and am delighted that the pup found a good home!  Good job everyone who helped in this.  I’m like Cindy and wish that we had a way to deal with these types of breeders.

 

Education, education, education- but obviously that doesn’t always work....

 

Peggy

 

From: Jurgen & Cindy Koppen

Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 2:56 PM

To: group...@googlegroups.com

Subject: 9 week old Leonberger - almost "home"

 

[Mary Ruggiero-Smith]

 Here is the article I give to my puppy people

Neutering, and the age at which a dog is neutered, may affect the animal’s risk for developing certain cancers and joint diseases, according to a new study of golden retrievers by a team of researchers at the University of California, Davis.

The study, which examined the health records of 759 golden retrievers, found a surprising doubling of hip dysplasia among male dogs neutered before one year of age. This and other results were published Feb. 13 in the online scientific journal PLOS ONE.

“The study results indicate that dog owners and service-dog trainers should carefully consider when to have their male or female dogs neutered,” said lead investigator Benjamin Hart, a distinguished professor emeritus in the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine.

“It is important to remember, however, that because different dog breeds have different vulnerabilities to various diseases, the effects of early and late neutering also may vary from breed to breed,” he said.

While results of the new study are revealing, Hart said the relationship between neutering and disease-risk remains a complex issue. For example, the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog’s growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs.

Dog owners in the United States are overwhelmingly choosing to neuter their dogs, in large part to prevent pet overpopulation or avoid unwanted behaviors. In the U.S., surgical neutering — known as spaying in females — is usually done when the dog is less than one year old.

In Europe, however, neutering is generally avoided by owners and trainers and not promoted by animal health authorities, Hart said.

During the past decade, some studies have indicated that neutering can have several adverse health effects for certain dog breeds. Those studies examined individual diseases using data drawn from one breed or pooled from several breeds.

Against that backdrop, Hart and colleagues launched their study, using a single hospital database. The study was designed to examine the effects of neutering on the risks of several diseases in the same breed, distinguishing between males and females and between early or late neutering and non-neutering. 

The researchers chose to focus on the golden retriever because it is one of the most popular breeds in the U.S. and Europe and is vulnerable to various cancers and joint disorders. The breed also is favored for work as a service dog.

The research team reviewed the records of female and male golden retrievers, ranging in age from 1 to 8 years, that had been examined at UC Davis’ William R. Pritchard Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital for two joint disorders and three cancers: hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumor. The dogs were classified as intact (not neutered), neutered early (before 12 months age), or neutered late (at or after 12 months age).

Joint disorders and cancers are of particular interest because neutering removes the male dog’s testes and the female’s ovaries, interrupting production of certain hormones that play key roles in important body processes such as closure of bone growth plates, and regulation of the estrous cycle in female dogs.

The study revealed that, for all five diseases analyzed, the disease rates were significantly higher in both males and females that were neutered either early or late compared with intact (non-neutered) dogs.

Specifically, early neutering was associated with an increase in the occurrence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear and lymphosarcoma in males and of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females. Late neutering was associated with the subsequent occurrence of mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma in females.

In most areas, the findings of this study were consistent with earlier studies, suggesting similar increases in disease risks. The new study, however, was the first to specifically report an increased risk of late neutering for mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma.

Furthermore, the new study showed a surprising 100 percent increase, or doubling, of the incidence of hip dysplasia among early-neutered males. Earlier studies had reported a 17 percent increase among all neutered dogs compared to all non-neutered dogs, indicating the importance of the new study in making gender and age-of-neutering comparisons.

Other researchers on this UC Davis study were: Gretel Torres de la Riva, Thomas Farver and Lynette Hart, School of Veterinary Medicine; Anita Oberbauer, Department of Animal Science; Locksley Messam, Department of Public Health Sciences; and Neil Willits, Department of Statistics.

About UC Davis

For more than 100 years, UC Davis has engaged in teaching, research and public service that matter to California and transform the world. Located close to the state capital, UC Davis has more than 33,000 students, more than 2,500 faculty and more than 21,000 staff, an annual research budget of nearly $750 million, a comprehensive health system and 13 specialized research centers. The university offers interdisciplinary graduate study and more than 100 undergraduate majors in four colleges — Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, Biological Sciences, Engineering, and Letters and Science. It also houses six professional schools — Education, Law, Management, Medicine, Veterinary Medicine and the Betty Irene Moore School of Nursing.

Media contact(s):

• Benjamin Hart, School of Veterinary Medicine, (530) 752-1555, blh...@ucdavis.edu
• Pat Bailey, UC Davis News Service, (530) 752-9843, pjba...@ucdavis.edu

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