Sanni Kapikkad and savarna peace in Google groups

[Dileep Raj]

Some friends told me that Sanil
forwarded my response to his take in Fourth Estate Critique and
couple of people there are irritated by it. They are particularly irritated
by my reference to Sanni Kapikkad.

I took Sanil's writing as a public document and responded to
the text (irrespective of my personal friendship with him)
out of the immediacy of the political context.
I am happy that Sanil showed the academic decency to
forward it to the forum where I am not present.

I am more happy to learn that reference to Sanni Kapikkad
troubled the savarna 'peace' prevailing in so called "left"
private spheres..

Intense political struggles will disrupt the elitist
consensus , however they try to keep a safe distance to it.

Let us celebrate it
Cheers!!
--
Dileep R I thuravoor

[Dileep Raj]

Let me suggest n academic exercise for those interested/involved
in social scientific studies of media.

Can you check whether there is a SINGLE dalit member who is active in
Fourth estate Critique?

My hypothesis ( assumption , perhaps) is that
there won't be any.

And this is not a surprising 'find' but what is 'natural' about all
left friend circles!!

[damodar prasad]

Hahhha..  Defeated discourses need some solacing. Solacing by the way of Praak-ing.
multiple mode-praaking. Its all death by another name.

And death or devastation,  when people mourn parodying elegies in their country graveyard to resuscitate themselves, the bingo wants only pie - as in all cases- of it to rehabilitate him selves.

Praaking will go on. in multiple mode and less of imagination.

or Lingo will take them to less politcal Chiru's Praja rajayam and speedily evacuate whatever politics is left of it.

So.. Pls. Dileep.. don't be charitable and heighten the very existence, which is non-existence, by name DEATH.

[neelan neelakandan]

I am not a dalit , but not by my personal choice. Neelan --- On Tue, 26/8/08, Dileep Raj <del...@gmail.com> wrote:

---

Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without download.

[Dileep Raj]

Dear Neelan,

As your mail is in reponse to my post ,let me
repeat that your statement in no way
contradicts my argument.

I was comparing the nature of groups and other
groupings. Being reflexive of oneself and one's interpersonal
associatins will help in understanding the larger social and
structural determinations.

Though not personal choice, such social limitations are not eternal.

i was concerned more about the invisibility of Dalit thinkers
in radical associations . also , about the resistence
to their presence from the so called "secular'
people ( who claim to represent everything new, whether it be Dalit, women,
assertions).

such people take it as their 'birth right' to
speak patronisingly on behalf of every one.
Even worst, they try to oblierate all efforts
of those who speak for themselves.

A dialogue will obtain only when mutual
recognition is made the precondition for that.

We have seen instances where some patrons getting
irritated while subalterns started speaking.Reception of Nalini Jameela's
autobiography ,a telling example.

I was wondering why people are scarred
about engaging in non hierarchical spaces (like Green Youth) and ask
for special protections ( which implies assuring some sort of
hierarchy).
Here, everybody's arguments are taken seriously.
Nobody's 'aura' is respected.

You are somebody who is not afraid to engage.
But I don't understand the confessional mode
you resort to.

[neelan neelakandan]

Here again i am engaging, Dileep. " confessional mode" is your reading of it. I am engaging ofcourse. Neelan

---

Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now

[Dileep Raj]

Ok..

I was thinking of "web" of feeling
and social 'net'works..!!!

On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 10:21 AM, neelan neelakandan
<neelan...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
> Here again i am engaging, Dileep. " confessional mode" is your reading of
> it. I am engaging ofcourse.
> Neelan
>
>

[C.K. Vishwanath]

yes,that means,you will get unaccounted privileges in indian society.many studies relating to social mobility in india reflect your birth privilege.that gives you more life choices in webarian sense. --- On Wed, 8/27/08, neelan neelakandan <neelan...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

[damodar prasad]

Well, Neelan sir you are very forthcoming. Caste in not a choice of anyone unless we believe in some im-mmaterial divinity (material divinity is also there!!). The modernist secular self unitedly holds to conveniently to erase traces of caste in appearances.Don't mistake surface to the core!! The class is a cover-up in this respect to avoid debates on the caste -dom that one has been domineering for long. By the way Its all going. Yes the cataclysm is not a fantasy, the tremble is more than real, as yeats said: Things fall apart, center cannot hold..and the ceremony of innocence is drowned". As you may very well-know Class was once again invoked typically by the dominating castes to dissect into caste configuration by way of creamy-layer.

What is actually sought from the holders of caste power and the propertariat  is to open up, share and  equalize the resource, don't hold to what is waning out... basically nothing radical, it is a demand for bourgeois -civil rights. The movement for reservation is only a movement towards de-reservation. De-reserving the constituencies kept secure for ones own genetic generations.

By the way I had read you quoting Foucault recently. In Madness and Civilization, he mentions about Ship of Fools.. Ya, ship of fools.. It speaks at large on our contemporary issues than any metaphors.

damodar prasad

[neelan neelakandan]

Dear Prasad, You know what a " decasting " life some of us lived. But such  factors , which are  beyond one's control shouldnt be a qualification/disqualification in discourses. Its something like disarming one! I dont want to go autobiographical in a public domain. Neelan  --- On Wed, 27/8/08, damodar prasad <damodar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without download.

[damodar prasad]

Well. that's why you are here uninhibited by a primordial self. Thats why conversing becomes fruitful without developing any attrition.

But the issue is about the people outside the caste system and so-called "development models", like Kerala model, well-categorized by the develomentalist discourse as "outliers".

The autobiographies have become the markers of our time. It is the people outside the varna system who artculates the deep dismays of living out in a regimented caste order. Let me just mention one: Government Brahmana by Aravind Malagatti.

Is de-casting possible? does not it negate the politics of caste-based assertions?

[Bobby Kunhu]

While mentioning another autobiography Vasanth Moon's Growing up Untouchable in India, let me finish the Yeat's quote that Damodar used,

"Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world"
 

There is a fear of chaos if the caste system is upturned, sanctioned by the smritis and its peddlers across the board.

 

[Dileep Raj]

I value personal histories which are one and all unique,
defying any generalisations.

I am not antithetical to the painful efforts at
engendering one'self' in myriad ways, destabilising
the determinisms of all sorts( sexual/economic/political etc).

identitisations being a process in flex, fixing it any particular
moment ( whether it be from outside or inside ) will be mechanical and
disarming.

So, I was a bit perplexed while Neelan fixed his identity negatively
in this discursive context. Dalit being a political identity which is
not determined by birth ( not all those born in subaltern castes claim
Dalit identity) ,such negative identifications
may easily fall into essentialism.

you might have noticed one usage in my original post in this thread.
viz: "sociological ". It was not fortuitous that I suggested such an exercise
to socilogy students. It enables us to look at subjects from outside and see
what are the social webs and connections which inflences ( not determine) their
perspectives/biases/emotions etc. of which the individual participants
may not be aware of.

As active subjects are subject of enquiry here, I don't rule out the
sort of resistence
put forth by Neelan.

Being reflexive of our advantages, blindnesses, assumptions,symbolic
capital etc will enrich
the discussion.
No question of disqualifying or devaluing anybody's response. On the contrary,
I was questioning such disqualifying of Sanni Kapikkad by some people.

Let me end this by relying on my Foucault fixation yet another time :-)

"The notion of mode of life seems important to me.Will it require the
introduction of a diversification different from the ones due to
social class, differences in profession and culture, a diversification
that would also be a form of relationship and would be a "way of
life"? A way of life can be shared among individuals of different
age,status,and social activity. It can yield intense relations not
resembling those that are institutionalised.It seems to me that a way
of life can yield a culture and an ethics.To be 'gay", I think , is
not to identify with the psychological traits and the visible masks of
the homosexual but to try to define and develop a way of life"
-- Friendship as a Way Of Life

On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 5:22 PM, neelan neelakandan
<neelan...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

[neelan neelakandan]

Is decasting possible asks Prasad, I have no answer. But there were efforts to decaste, which lead to severe outcasting and social isolations, in our own near past history. You can look back and demerit all those efforts, call them weak or what ever.But there were efforts. A sort of rebelloin against one's own caste Identity , which some saw as  a chain not as a previlage. . Unlike what Dileep thinks, i am not resisting, i am trying ( yes trying ) to engage.And here i retreat.

Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here

[Dileep Raj]

Dear Neelan,

Hope we will meet soon in another thread
(randadi pinnott, oradi munnott enno matto alle Lenin paranjathu?)

Cheers!

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 9:47 AM, neelan neelakandan

[neelan neelakandan]

Lenin anganeyokke paranjittundo??? neelan

---

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

[ranju radha]

sadharanagatiyil aranu Leninu speach ezhuthikodukkaravo?

allelum Communistukar Janmana ezhuthukarum patravidushikalumanennalle vappu.

arellam enthellam paranjuvennu arkariyam alle?

pavam lenin. angerorto paranjathu vizhungunna sakhanmarulla kerala nattila Communism thadichu kozhukkunnathennu!!

so, randadiyokke pavam dalitanum adivasikkum

nammal sakhakkal Harrisonoppam munnottu thanne

harrison salaam !!

[Dileep Raj]

:)

Dear Neelan,

Oradi pinnott, Randadi munnott ennano ennu samsayamundu!
(Guerilla samarathandram...?)

Randayalum onnayalum,
chilappol kalu pinnottu vekkunnathu nallathanennu enikkum thonnunnu.

charcha "purogamikkanam"
ennathu oru linear pratheeksha aanallo.

Charcha sidilekku gamichalum mathi..

Hope you are not hurt by my words.

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:27 PM, neelan neelakandan

[ranju radha]

the caste hindu de-casting happened by assuming a meta-social sphere devoid of caste at the same time endorsing the system of caste as historical necessity. The caste power relations remained the same while the reformatory actions prevailed at the surface level. "class" was just an excuse for them and successfully constructed a world of caste-less "false consciousness" among the marginalised. in reality, while they ushered in caste pwer relations, the rhetoric of class helpd them evade the question of caste. Such was our de-casting. EMS is the perfect example.

[neelan neelakandan]

Rather i am not that easily hurt at all, Dileep.Prasad will tell you how jovial i can be. As others read me and my positions, i read them and theirs too, including you and  yours.As simple as that...So no malice meant at all at any point. Discussing the same thread over and people reading it differently is interesting to some extend. After that , i usually retreat , especially as i have little, or no  knowledge of philosophy. Thats all.. i am niether  going to run away nor throw others away. Thanks anyway dileep, for the concern. Neelan

[neelan neelakandan]

Theoretical assumtions , arguements, negations, evaluations or revaluations  are are fine Ranju. But practice and experience are  all together ,a different thing. Neelan --- On Fri, 29/8/08, ranju radha <ranju...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Dileep Raj]

That's fantastic spirit, Neelan!!

I stumble upon philosophical stuff out of my
100% practical dilemmas about self and identity..

I find it a problem worth
exploring in all its nuances

cheers!

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:41 AM, neelan neelakandan

[S sanjeev]

dear mr.neelan, since you have been deploying dichotomies such as experience/theory I’d urge you to look at autobiographies of some of our major 'de-casters' and see how deeply caste is entrenched in those textual “practices”.

--- On Fri, 29/8/08, neelan neelakandan <neelan...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

[ahmed rafeek j]

Yes, Sanjeev. Most of them are CASTO(bio)graphies rather than autobiographies.

[ranju radha]

yea it would be so as caste is so intrinsic to our culture. let us accept that.

the problem comes when we assume ourselves to be above all these and imagine to have "de-casted"... and blaiming those who point out this aspect as "casteist".

such was/is our theory and practice.  

 

[neelan neelakandan]

OK, let me Neelan --- On Fri, 29/8/08, S sanjeev <samv...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[neelan neelakandan]

[damodar prasad]

In the caste-class configuration and ongoing debates, how to locate and read the inimitable genius Malayalam has produced  VKN  (  MP narayana pilai as well) will be interesting.

 read his very short Story, Vargam and Varnam?

.

[ranju radha]

read Sir Chathu, kozhi of VKN also

and viewpoints of Narayana Pillai on the issue of reservation and dalit politics (remember reading his column in Kalakaumudi (or samalalika malayalam?) years ago)....

what i can say with due respect to all these celebrities is that "inimitable genius" is not an exception as far as caste/gender/class s concerned.

[damodar prasad]

Very intelligent observation. But I beg to disagree. May I be allowed.

[ranju radha]

I also beg to differ. May I  also be allowed?

 

(genius like merit is construction)

 

[ahmed rafeek j]

Merit.. genius are all social/political  constrcutions..Even "I & am" is a construct.  but this theory has become so commonplace that when people score poor marks in the  xamination who are other wise theoritically apt about all other things excpet their subject say that they failed becasue question paper  is a  social construction and one disagreed to all. The radical motivations of this theory is tremendous.

 

The poor social constructivist theory also provides very key insights to behavioural perfomances in social circles. Hope you have read it.

 

[ranju radha]

examination is a system and t construct 'merit' which s not flawless.

poor marks in exams happen in a social context. that s not indicative of the capabilities of that indl

as u r aware education system/exams in a way are ideological apparatuses with specific missions. This masks many apsects of our cultural/political/social facet.

 

marks in a exam (as I do evaluate answer sheets in abundance) is again a construct . that s why even universties intrduce grade system. students have every right to question the question paper/syllabus. Bz it remains statist and serves hegemonically to normative imaginations.

 

in fact many students challenge it through cultural codes. A careful analyse of those quotes from SSLC ansswer sheets occasionally appear in media, will reveal the tensions btn  hegemonically standarsised culture that appear in our text books and little little resistances to it. Children are more political than the politically aware and well -read "us".

 

 

 

so believing in a Godly given in-born genius and attributing it to one;s political choice is an act that constructs the 'genius' and 'meritorious'. which s close 2ur ideological self    

 

that s how i take it. 

 

[Radha krishnan]

KONDA nee maarinilkk, KANDA njaan parayaam, ente neelaa...! charithram aavarththikkunnath engine ennaanu aa thaadikkaaran paranjath ?

[ahmed rafeek j]

aa thaadikaarante vizhungi vizhungi swayam ee paruvamayi.

baakiyullavare veruthe vitukoode!

 

[sunil kumar]

dalitare rakshikkan kerala marxumar pedappad pedunnu.

oppam kerla marxistukaleyum rakshappeduthanulla rahasya agendayumunde!

beware of neo marsist brahmanists.

[S sanjeev]

oks.

[Bobby Kunhu]

The tone this conversation has taken reminds me of Jean Genet's play The Blacks
Apologies for sounding intellectual!!!!

 

--
Bobby Kunhu
http://community.eldis.org/myshkin/Blog/

[damodar prasad]

Thank you Radhakrishnan for not unsubscribing from green youth.

As a first entrant nobody seems to welcome you.. 12 am .. a day passed.. very happy to see you at Green youth. I thought a jumping out caste-assertive response will come to you. It went hiding fearing you. No problem such responses are spared for people like me..

I  admit that there is an element of farce. what to do- public group- not back patting community- diverse interest and may be even one can find personal animosity for reasons unknown between people unknown. Y get obsessed in such conversations. There are more better things to observe in Keralam today.

Pakshe.. mashe.. ..Kondanum Kandanum paranja entha?

Thirumeni parayum.. menon kelkkum.. pannicker porum churiyum.. pulla thala choriyam.. kalam mari poyi,  cheta.

VKN paranjathu ithanu:

VELLACHI SUPRAJA CHATHA
POORVA SANDHYA PRAVARTHATHE
UTHISHTA CHERUMADWAJA
THRAILOKYAM VIPLAVUM KURU

Todays welcome song!!!

another proverb is that: Marpapene vaticanil thane poyi kurbana padipikkano?

Pls. be here for a long long long time

[ranju radha]

kalam vallathe marippoyittillennu damodarinte mail soochippikkunnu

 

damodar has done it in true caste spirit like VKN and co. ltd.

 

fear of the Dalit assertion is the base of the politics of brahminsm and practice of 'untouchability'. If one keeps that as "divine" and "sacred" in one's heart even Indian Constitution can't change it.

 

[ranju radha]

the thread is on Sanni, but i am reminded of the "irritation" shown by so called "intellectual class" in kerala towards scholars like Baburaj and K K Kochu also. Sanni is not alone. Attempt has been made from all quarters to suppress the scholarly interventions of Dalits in Kerala's milieu.

[damodar prasad]

Dear Renju,

It is not that I haven't a reply for VKN and Co and whatever you presume me to be. Yes, It is presumption and you intend to subsume everything into a vampire discourse, which in my understanding is not the active Dalit subjectivity.

Instead of personal harassments by both tweedlum and tweedle, I request to read the text not the presumed individual- subject fixed in a location and time.

{Why not tweedlum meet tweedle and embrace or extiniguish. As the G in Karhikeyan and Sudhakaran, there are striking resmeblances}

Renju, if you find my texts as bramhnical in content, then de-construct the text. Pls. don't fix the presumed individual subject into the text. You may not know, on one side I am accused of being CPM bashing.

Pls. some others help me with your readings.

How I wish I to see you in real because the compose box is limited in space and straight talk will make us clear what we are, how we are and What we have to say.

Or the repeat of farce is what is expected by some cheer leaders as well. I will try not to repeat. But How long, I am not sure.

[ranju radha]

Dear damodar,

 

I dont know the person called Damodar. and I m least bothered abt it.

my responses are to the opinions expressed here. 

i respond within all my limitations. 

there s no personal enmity here.

i express my opinion without looking at the person whther it be damodar, dileep, rafeek, neelan, or any one... these are my opinions on opinions.. i may agree or disagree.

 

and wht is this vampire discourse? who s a "vampire"? and why?

 

 

and i do have my own reading of VKN and Narayana Pillais. 

 

and request also to read the text. my response was to ur text only.

 

with due respect and regards

 

[S sanjeev]

plz enlighten dear bobby:-) --- On Sat, 30/8/08, Bobby Kunhu <bobby...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Radha krishnan]

Thanks damodar for the kind welcome. But it was a mistake on my part to have responded to that posting. Happened because only the name Neelan caught my attention and that it was from your cult escaped me. I am happy being out. Thanks all the same, esp for the pearls of wisdom on various issues.

----- Original Message ----
From: damodar prasad <damodar...@gmail.com>
To: green...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 31 August, 2008 12:36:54 AM
Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: Sanni Kapikkad and savarna peace in Google groups

Thank you Radhakrishnan for not unsubscribing from green youth.

As a first entrant nobody seems to welcome you.. 12 am .. a day passed.. very happy to see you at Green youth. I thought a jumping out caste-assertive response will come to you. It went hiding fearing you. No problem such responses are spared for people like me..

I  admit that there is an element of farce. what to do- public group- not back patting community- diverse interest and may be even one can find personal animosity for reasons unknown between people unknown. Y get obsessed in such conversations. There are more better things to observe in Keralam today.

Pakshe.. mashe.. ..Kondanum Kandanum paranja entha?

Thirumeni parayum.. menon kelkkum.. pannicker porum churiyum.. pulla thala choriyam.. kalam mari poyi,  cheta.

VKN paranjathu ithanu:

VELLACHI SUPRAJA CHATHA
POORVA SANDHYA PRAVARTHATHE
UTHISHTA CHERUMADWAJA
THRAILOKYAM VIPLAVUM KURU

Todays welcome song!!!

another proverb is that: Marpapene vaticanil thane poyi kurbana padipikkano?

Pls. be here for a long long long time

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Radha krishnan <radha...@yahoo.com> wrote:

KONDA nee maarinilkk, KANDA njaan parayaam, ente neelaa...! charithram aavarththikkunnath engine ennaanu aa thaadikkaaran paranjath ?

----- Original Message ----
From: neelan neelakandan <neelan...@yahoo.co.in>

To: green...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, 29 August, 2008 5:17:44 PM

Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: Sanni Kapikkad and savarna peace in Google groups

[venukm]

Despite lot of discussions here taking place on caste, I wonder why
there is hadrly any reference to "Caste As Part of Hinduism".
This brings to mind a scenario in which an implied unanimity in not
offending The Religion with its utterly hopeless basics, plays a vital
role irrespective of people be dalits or non-dalits..Thus,go on
bashing the existing discourse about modernity and egalitarianism,
bashing even those who might at least dare to think beyond the
(mistaken?..) identities.(Which in turn,are in the first place,
bestowed to you thanks to your religion)
.Celebrate the blissful state of mind that prompts you to
uncritically uphold the same casteist,gendered,and xenophobic approach
to epistemology that you would actually like to oppose , by
deconstructing the discourse of modernity and progress to suit it to
the celebration of Identities.
Identity politics(in my humble observation)is just another name for a
kind of political discorse bordering paranoia, which presopposes any
serious political discourse invariably divided along casteist lines
and confined to only places where religion and caste reign. Even the
possibility of existence of another domain of de-casted, de-
religionised world is denied in such thinking.
Despite all the Brahmanical arrogance and the millenniums old
treachery and conspiracies meticulously executed against dalits to
ensure their subordination, if majority of dalit elites still want to
cling to the same religion,the same awful gods like Ramas, Krishnas
and even the Hindu law givers like Manu, I doubt that the fault lies
not just with "them",the Brahmanical Marxists. To the extent you are
rather at ease with the caste-gender modes of Hinduism and to the
extent to which you are not deeply impressed by the modernist visions
of both Ambedkarism and Marxism, I'm afraid you are poorly equipped
to fight caste; whether you be a dalit or non-dalit. It is in this
context that I wish to express my disagreement to any such exclusive
claim made on behalf of one or other the Malayalee dalit organic
intellectuals in defining the dalit politics.On the contrary ,I would
rather be cautious in iconising them and I would say that the thoughts
of Ambedkar have influenced not only the dalits but others as well in
their efforts to counter, to and to live beyond caste.
Coming back to the question of Identity Politics, it is to be noted
further, that one or other variant of same identity politics is
employed by the CPI(M) or the RSS, in having themselves been able to
get the people of the dalit communities around, though toward their
varying political agendas.
Regards,
Venu.K.M

On 31 Aug, 09:55, "damodar prasad" <damodar.pra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Renju,
>
> It is not that I haven't a reply for VKN and Co and whatever you presume me
> to be. Yes, It is presumption and you intend to subsume everything into a
> vampire discourse, which in my understanding is not the active Dalit
> subjectivity.
>
> Instead of personal harassments by both tweedlum and tweedle, I request to
> read the text not the presumed individual- subject fixed in a location and
> time.
>
> {Why not tweedlum meet tweedle and embrace or extiniguish. As the G in
> Karhikeyan and Sudhakaran, there are striking resmeblances}
>
> Renju, if you find my texts as bramhnical in content, then de-construct the
> text. Pls. don't fix the presumed individual subject into the text. You may
> not know, on one side I am accused of being CPM bashing.
>
> Pls. some others help me with your readings.
>
> How I wish I to see you in real because the compose box is limited in space
> and straight talk will make us clear what we are, how we are and What we
> have to say.
>
> Or the repeat of farce is what is expected by some cheer leaders as well. I
> will try not to repeat. But How long, I am not sure.
>

> On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 9:19 AM, ranju radha <ranjura...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > kalam vallathe marippoyittillennu damodarinte mail soochippikkunnu
>
> > damodar has done it in true caste spirit like VKN and co. ltd.
>
> > fear of the Dalit assertion is the base of the politics of brahminsm and
> > practice of 'untouchability'. If one keeps that as "divine" and "sacred" in
> > one's heart even Indian Constitution can't change it.
>

> > On 8/31/08, damodar prasad <damodar.pra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Thank you Radhakrishnan for not unsubscribing from green youth.
>
> >> As a first entrant nobody seems to welcome you.. 12 am .. a day passed..
> >> very happy to see you at Green youth. I thought a jumping out
> >> caste-assertive response will come to you. It went hiding fearing you. No
> >> problem such responses are spared for people like me..
>
> >> I  admit that there is an element of farce. what to do- public group- not
> >> back patting community- diverse interest and may be even one can find
> >> personal animosity for reasons unknown between people unknown. Y get
> >> obsessed in such conversations. There are more better things to observe in
> >> Keralam today.
>

> >> *Pakshe..* *mashe.. ..Kondanum Kandanum paranja entha?

>
> >> Thirumeni parayum.. menon kelkkum.. pannicker porum churiyum.. pulla thala
> >> choriyam.. kalam mari poyi,  cheta.

> >> *
> >> *VKN paranjathu ithanu:

>
> >> VELLACHI SUPRAJA CHATHA
> >> POORVA SANDHYA PRAVARTHATHE
> >> UTHISHTA CHERUMADWAJA

> >> THRAILOKYAM VIPLAVUM KURU*

>
> >> Todays welcome song!!!
>
> >> another proverb is that: Marpapene vaticanil thane poyi kurbana
> >> padipikkano?
>
> >> Pls. be here for a long long long time
>

> >> On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Radha krishnan <radhamg2...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> >>>  KONDA nee maarinilkk, KANDA njaan parayaam, ente neelaa...! charithram
> >>> aavarththikkunnath engine ennaanu aa thaadikkaaran paranjath ?
>
> >>>  ----- Original Message ----
> >>> From: neelan neelakandan <neelanpre...@yahoo.co.in>
>
> >>>  To: green...@googlegroups.com
> >>> Sent: Friday, 29 August, 2008 5:17:44 PM
> >>> Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: Sanni Kapikkad and savarna peace in Google
> >>> groups
>

> >>> --- On *Fri, 29/8/08, neelan neelakandan <neelanpre...@yahoo.co.in>*wrote:

>
> >>> From: neelan neelakandan <neelanpre...@yahoo.co.in>
> >>> Subject: Re: [GreenYouth] Re: Sanni Kapikkad and savarna peace in Google
> >>> groups
> >>> To: green...@googlegroups.com
> >>> Date: Friday, 29 August, 2008, 4:43 PM
>
> >>>    OK, let me
> >>> Neelan
>

> >>> --- On *Fri, 29/8/08, S sanjeev <samva...@yahoo.com>* wrote:

>
> >>> From: S sanjeev <samva...@yahoo.com>
> >>> Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: Sanni Kapikkad and savarna peace in Google
> >>> groups
> >>> To: green...@googlegroups.com
> >>> Date: Friday, 29 August, 2008, 12:45 PM
>
> >>>    dear mr.neelan,
>
> >>> since you have been deploying dichotomies such as experience/theory I'd
> >>> urge you to look at autobiographies of some of our major 'de-casters' and
> >>> see how deeply caste is entrenched in those textual "practices".
>

> >>> --- On *Fri, 29/8/08, neelan neelakandan <neelanpre...@yahoo.co.in>*wrote:

>
> >>> From: neelan neelakandan <neelanpre...@yahoo.co.in>
> >>> Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: Sanni Kapikkad and savarna peace in Google
> >>> groups
> >>> To: green...@googlegroups.com
> >>> Date: Friday, 29 August, 2008, 9:47 AM
>
> >>>    Theoretical assumtions , arguements, negations, evaluations or
> >>> revaluations  are are fine Ranju. But practice and experience are  all
> >>> together ,a different thing.
> >>> Neelan

> >>> --- On *Fri, 29/8/08, ranju radha <ranjura...@gmail.com>* wrote:

> >>>> >> --- On Wed, 27/8/08, damodar prasad <damodar.pra...@gmail.com>
> >>>> > wrote:

> >>>> >>> --- On Wed, 27/8/08, damodar prasad <damodar.pra...@gmail.com>
> >>>> > wrote:

>
> >>>> >>> From: damodar prasad <damodar.pra...@gmail.com>
> >>>> >>> Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: Sanni Kapikkad and savarna peace in Google
> >>>> >>> groups
> >>>> >>> To: green...@googlegroups.com
> >>>> >>> Date: Wednesday, 27 August, 2008, 2:31 PM
>
> >>>> >>> Well, Neelan sir you are very forthcoming. Caste in not a choice of
> >>>> > anyone
> >>>> >>> unless we believe in some im-mmaterial divinity (material divinity
> >>>> is
> >>>> > also
> >>>> >>> there!!). The modernist secular self unitedly holds to conveniently
> >>>> to
> >>>> > erase
> >>>> >>> traces of caste in appearances.Don't mistake surface to the core!!
> >>>> > The class
> >>>> >>> is a cover-up in this respect to avoid debates on the caste -dom
> >>>> that
> >>>> > one
> >>>> >>> has been domineering for long. By the way Its all going. Yes the
> >>>> > cataclysm
> >>>> >>> is not a fantasy, the tremble is more than real, as yeats said:
> >>>> Things
> >>>> > fall
> >>>> >>> apart, center cannot
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Afthab Ellath]

There are many "mistakes" happening to Mr Radhakrishnan in this group... He  mistakenly joined this group... Then he is not able to unsubscribe... Then he requested somebody to help him to unsubscribe.. Some, including me tried to help him to that... mistakenly he missed that as well... Now he is mistakely trapped in a cult because of Neelan... There is one more mistake that he has not admitted here...He is mistakenly interested to read the mails in this group... But I liked that interest any way...

Regards
Afthab Ellath

[ranju radha]

some observations:

1) caste has grown beyond hinduism and taken modern forms. that in no way undermine the relevnce of the crtique of hindusm.

2) i think it would be foolishness to reduce Ambedkarism to a modernist agenda.Ambedkar like Gandhi pose a challenge to such reductionism 

3) Dalits should be given the agency to choose whatever religion they want to embrace or not to embrace

4) iconisation of any one is a problem.

5) but dont deny Dalits the opportunity and agency to define their politics. At least dont steal it from them

6) who said that Dalit elites want to cling to hinduism? are u suggesting them to convert? let that choice be left to them. somehow, such a dialogue has no market among Dalits now. claim to Hinduism need not be deemed as subordination. its narrative is slightly complex. 

7)  CPI M employs class identity and RSS hindu communitarian discourse. Dalits strategically engage with both. assertion,cooption, subordination, negotiation,bigotry, exploitation all these are involved in this. one or the other may dominate according to the situation.

8) the reluctnce to accept Dalits scholars in kerala at any cost indicates the nature of our intellctual sphere.  Dileep was pointng out that in th efirst mail " ..reference to Sanni Kapikkad

troubled the savarna 'peace' prevailing in so called "left"
private spheres.."
 

 

[venukm]

1. Why should one be ‘reluctant’ to accept dalit scholars?
Which of the scholars on earth, let alone dalit scholars, would make
claim for such exclusivity in uncritical acceptance ?
I believe that accepting someone is different from making him/her
into icons ,and it is there I raised a few points. There is
absolutely little room for meaningful engagement, that case.
I can't see who is proposing to 'reduce' Ambedkarism to a modernist
agenda.
One the contrary, I believe Ambedkarism alone has the potential for
rising above the parochial bounds of claims for hegemony in defining
and fixing issues; to become a truly modernist ideology against
Brahmanism, that might be as pan-Indian in nature as the Hidutwa. It
simply refuses to end up an appendix to some West- originated , post-
modernist critique of Marxism.
2. I believe that it is not caste that is growing beyond Hinduism;
rather Hinduism itself is fast outliving Rama, Krishna, Bhagavat Gita,
Gandhi and Manu to suit the contemporary anti- modernist ideas on
the one hand and the neo-liberal global agenda of hegemonic alliances
centered around identifying and targeting the 'Other'.
To give an example , M.S.Golwalker, founder of the RSS said nothing
directly against the untouchables of his time. While on the one hand,
his targeted enemies remained Muslims, X’stians and the Communists
grouped as categories of people persuaded by alien thoughts, on the
other, the threats against conversions(of the dalits ) were more than
apparent. Perhaps similar thing is being enacted at Chengara today by
the Brahmanical forces under the grab of ‘nationalist’ Communism by
the talk of ‘foreign’ involvement and by the accusation of creating
anarchy.
While Golwalkar’s solution to the problem of the ‘foreign’ was not
anything less than eliminating ‘the’ other(ed) categories exactly
the way Nazis did, the CPM and their savarna think tanks try to make
the land issue raised by dalits as invisible as they could by
dismissing the Chengara struggle as persuaded by the foreign.
In both cases , the invented ‘foreign’ is nothing but the conspicuous
opposition to the entire system of privileges and disprevileges.
. Probably Golwalker viewed Ambedkarism as something not yet grown as
a material force and a serious threat. So long as majority of the
dalits remained illiterate and uneducated, it confined to a few elites
and for the other part, Gandhi and his Harijan agenda had taken the
dominant posture.
The arrogance is continuing today, at least a section of the post-
independent generation of elites from dalit communities gets co-
opted within Hinduism on the one hand, and the non-elites continue to
be left behind in education, possession of resources,etc.
3. >Gandhi, (with Ambedkar) posed a challenge to reductionism??
I really don't understand.. please explain, though I might be taking
your time for granted.
4. I know many an educated elite (not mean scholars) with their newly
acquired prestige thanks to the growth of Hindutwa, explaining the
good intentions of Manu . The basis of my observation is therefore, a
widely held Malayalee view subscribed by both the dalits and non-
dalits that Varnashramadharma somehow happened to be misused against
dalits by the pseudo- Brahmans …and the original Brahmans and the
Kings were good, so on and so forth.
5. Who can deny Dalit scholars any opportunity to define their
politics?
Is some attempt to engage in dialogue too bad? When Ambedkar is
still at large, in black and white, and in the ideological realm, who
will need brand new interpretations of Hinduism and caste except for
political expediency for few, who might aspire for sharing power at
the cost of harming the interests of majority of dalits and damning
the very idea of enlightenment and egalitarianism?
6. If you view conversion from one religion to other as the only
option available for people in the contemporary world, I cannot but
strongly disagree. However, I do believe if in the past, people have
moved out of Hinduism en bloc for reasons of not being treated as
equals, same reasons however hold good these days despite the few
cosmetic changes in the Hindu attitudes seen here and there.

7) >CPI M employs class identity and RSS hindu communitarian
discourse.
Dalits strategically engage with both. assertion,cooption,
subordination,
negotiation,bigotry, exploitation all these are involved in this. one
or the
other may dominate according to the situation.
>8) the reluctnce to accept Dalits scholars in kerala at any cost indicates

the nature of our intellectual sphere. Dileep was pointng out that in

th
efirst mail " ..reference to Sanni Kapikkad
troubled the savarna 'peace' prevailing in so called "left"
private spheres.."

I can acknowledge these as facts.
Still, I disagree with the(implied, I suppose) assumption that
strategies of bigotry, exploitation, co-option are not to be
questioned in this context.
Lastly, which is actually troubling the savarna ‘peace’ prevailing in
the so called “left” could be a debatable thing, though that as well,
can be seen as a matter of fact. Nevertheless,it could not just be the
name of one or other dalit scholar, it could be some bigger element,
for example,landless dalits and adivasis getting organized with the
support of a section of the civil society and outside the control of
party entities ranging from the conventional left to the naxalites.
Further, the entire political/intellectual landscape of Kerala that
dramatically changed thanks to the uprising of landless adivasis and
dalits since the days of Muthanga must definitely have disturbed the
savarna complacency and calm here.
Regards,
Venu K.M

[ranju radha]

some more brief observations;

 

1) how wide is this elite/non-elite divide among Dalits? is there a large /strong elite among Dalits? Or is it a kinda imagined by C V Sreeraman kinda shortstory writers (duravastha pinneyum vannappol)? Do u think all "elite" Dalits have been coopted by Hindutva and "non-Dalits" enlightened by Ambedkarsim? From where comes this binary?

sociologists have addressed it. I am not attempting one.

what I can point out here is that  the aversion towards "elite" Dalits and patronising attitude towards "non-Dalit" (landless etc) comes from a "problm" that make invisible the Dalit scholarly interventions whther it be literature, politics, academia, media etc.

its as if a Dalit/Adivasis issue need to be land and only abt land.. or poverty and only abt poverty.... so on so forth...typical marxist grand narratives have provided only this much scope to address the issue of the marginalised. As u read Ambedkar, u will come to know why he rejects marxism and Hinduism and why Dalit issues are not reduced to land and labour .... still one needs to move ahead of it..

2)   Golwalkar, an atheist (if i m not mistaken) used religion for his political mission. Gandhi als o uses it. what is interesting is rather than succumbing to a nehruvian modernist agenda Gandhi envisions the problms of a borrowd western modernity, though his solutions were weird..

Gandhi could not understand a Dalit. His project suits Hindu communitarian politics.

Ambedkar used the slogans of enlightenment, but drew its geneology to a Buddhist past. He was imagining a new nation. He never rejected the relevance of religion. U know better than me abt Ambedkar ..so i dont wanna blah blah..

3) what i gather from ur mail is the anxiety abt the Hinduisation of Dalits in kerala. its true. majority are. but what u miss is the dialogues taking place within the community. As u r aware Dalits can also think, they are doing it in their own. So one can't simply attribute a homogenous monolithic narrative of "eliteness" and "non-elitenss) from outside. That s foolishness.

4) who is beyond criticism? none. so as Dalit thinkers. But wht we see and saw (in Mathrubhumi coopted debate recently wher the savarna lobby of rajasekharan-anand-rajagopalan etc revealed the caste self) is the "irritation" towards a new aesthetics brought forth by Dalit thinkers. Dalit scholars like K K Kochu and Baburaj etc.have brought forth a new reading of literatute, politics. which obviously invited the ire of these people. that s their critique.. but wht was their response when criticsied? Look at N S Madhavan's repsonse to Ansari's critique of Higuita.. in one shaji kailas movie Suresh Gopi tore apart a baburaj article after all thse typical mallu savarna cinematic "pulayattu"... this s how THEY respond when criticised..  this is no way undermine the fact these Dalit scholars are also bound to criticism. any one told u otherwise?

5) and pls. dont try to limit the dalit question to land and labour. There are avenues in neo-liberal era to which Dalits have made claims and please don't close it by pulling them down by these "civilising missions".

 

this much only for the time being.....

 

 

On 8/31/08, venukm <kmven...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Dileep Raj]

One crucial aspect is lost while juxtaposing
"elite" & land/labour.

The land struggles from 90s in Kerala was not in the least
a 'spontaneous' upsurge. There were theoretical and imaginative
work by a section of dalit intellectuals ( Geethanandan, Sanni, M D
Thomas et al) behind the
behind those demands and styles of struggle.

during Janu's movement the main contradiction was between K K Koch nad Sanni.
Sanni pointed out the significance of having access to resources including
land in order to achieve citizenship. Koch nad baburaj were Sceptical,
fearing that this was marxism in another bottle.

but that theoretical battle was fruitful. So much so that
they all stand united by the time of Chengara.

So,please do not obliterate this recent history and pose
the issues in a dichotomised either/or manner, which
is a phase already overcome by dalit intelligentia in Kerala.

[Dileep Raj]

I am emphasising this, for
contemporary land struggles are not mere
struggles for resourse, but
identity movements fighting for citizenship.

Describing them as struggle for "land and labour"
is reductive reading .

[Bobby Kunhu]

Dear sanjeev
The play is enlightening by itself
Please do read it if you find time
If I am not mistaken Babasaheb refers to the play often.... beyond our wise net space
Best