Crosswalks

[Lee Bruch]

I just noticed on Twitter the attached photo of a crosswalk appearing on Greenwood Ave at 83rd

Lee Bruch

    206-355-4282 cell & text

    Lee....@outlook.com

[John Dierks]

That doesn’t look like a typical SDOT design to me. Have they changed the design or was this put in by another party?

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[Brent McFarlane]

Was it SDOT or was it the work of the pedestrian safety elves?

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 2, 2021, at 1:15 PM, John Dierks <jo...@dierks.org> wrote:



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[Brock Howell]

That looks like some reasonably polite tactical urbanism.

Best,

Brock Howell

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[Daigoro Toyama (daihard)]

A crosswalk is definitely a big plus. Since I bike east-west on 83rd from time to time, I’d love to have an accompanying green paint for bikes, too.

Dai

On Sep 2, 2021, at 14:10, Lucia Sanchez <l...@gusilu.net> wrote:

Oh yes. Now if they'd only give it lights and a button 🤞🏻

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[John Dierks]

The plan is (was?) to have a signal there as part of the greenway.

Not sure if that plan has been disrupted or not. 

http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/programs/greenways-program/n-83rd-st

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[Gary Yngve]

Awesome!  On another note, I find that if I carry an orange flag with my I get so much better compliance and attitude from drivers at an unmarked crosswalk.  While "all intersections are crosswalk" may be the law, it may be incompatible with Seattle driving culture, and more marked crosswalks are a good thing.

Also, i think I've mentioned it before, but compare Queen Anne Ave from Mercer to Smith to Phinney/Greenwood from 65th to 90th, about equal lengths.  
Queen Anne: 
Mercer: traffic light

Roy: traffic light

Highland: traffic light

Galer: all-stop
Garfield: marked crosswalk
Blaine: all-stop
Howe: marked crosswalk
Crockett: all-stop
Boston: all-stop

McGraw: all-stop

Smith: all-stop

Phinney/Greenwood:
65th: traffic light

67th: traffic light

71st: marked crosswalk
73rd: traffic light
80th: traffic light
84th: marked crosswalk

85th: traffic light
87th: traffic light
90th: traffic light

Both have Aurora as an alternative arterial.

Greenwood has two less traffic lights/stop signs, and by being traffic lights instead of stop signs, they encourage faster driving and make pedestrians wait longer.  A road can be for moving cars fast or for everyone in sn urban village.  It cannot be for both, and we should prioritize people first.

-g

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 1:11 PM Lee Bruch <lee....@outlook.com> wrote:

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[Brent McFarlane]

Definitely the work of elves!

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 2, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Micheline Seminet <michs...@gmail.com> wrote:



and on the north side of the same cross walk there are little orange flags waiting to be used.

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 2:28 PM Daigoro Toyama (daihard) <dai...@gmail.com> wrote:

A crosswalk is definitely a big plus. Since I bike east-west on 83rd from time to time, I’d love to have an accompanying green paint for bikes, too.

Dai

On Sep 2, 2021, at 14:10, Lucia Sanchez <l...@gusilu.net> wrote:

Oh yes. Now if they'd only give it lights and a button 🤞🏻

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021, 13:11 Lee Bruch <lee....@outlook.com> wrote:

I just noticed on Twitter the attached photo of a crosswalk appearing on Greenwood Ave at 83rd

Lee Bruch

    206-355-4282 cell & text

    Lee....@outlook.com

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[Lucia Sanchez]

Oh yes. Now if they'd only give it lights and a button 🤞🏻

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021, 13:11 Lee Bruch <lee....@outlook.com> wrote:

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[Rob Fellows]

It’s clearly not a city action. It’s sloppy (not straight), not thermoplastic (so won’t last and has visibility challenges at night), provided no opportunity for the community to weigh in, and no signs to warn drivers there’s be a traffic control change. 

-- Rob

On Sep 2, 2021, at 2:36 PM, John Dierks <jo...@dierks.org> wrote:



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[Brent McFarlane]

But the fact that it just happened likely means people were tired of waiting for the infamously snail paced Seattle process to do anything. Anarchy on  Greenwood Ave N.  Bravo!

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 2, 2021, at 3:40 PM, 'Rob Fellows' via Greenwood-Phinney Greenways <greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

It’s clearly not a city action. It’s sloppy (not straight), not thermoplastic (so won’t last and has visibility challenges at night), provided no opportunity for the community to weigh in, and no signs to warn drivers there’s be a traffic control change. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/greenwood-phinney-greenways/9B8ABF1C-5ACB-44DA-97F5-C9FBEC540D48%40mac.com.

[D Wiegand]

Rob,

Seems like the "community" may have done it on their own - sloppy or not, it got done. 😉

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[Lee Bruch]

yup, the signal & official crosswalk is SDOT's plan ... for eventually ... it was to be in 2021, but no action is yet seen, so like many things, it remains an unfulfilled aspiration

Lee Bruch

    206-355-4282 cell & text

    Lee....@outlook.com

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From: greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com <greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of D Wiegand <kdwi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2021 8:11 PM
To: greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com <greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Crosswalks

 

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[Justin Martin]

We noticed the new striping on the crosswalk this morning... as we biked up on our way to drop my son off at school, he commented "look Dad, they put in new crosswalk stuff." I was surprised and happy to see its appearance. We cross here regularly on our way to school and it was nice to have something that made the intersection stand out more and alerted Greenwood drivers to potential pedestrians crossing here. On my way back home I also saw two older kids on bikes who appeared to notice the crosswalk striping, crossed 83rd first at the intersection so they could cross Greenwood in the now-striped side of the crosswalk, then continued on their ride east on 83rd on the other side.

So even if it's not perfectly painted, it's seeming like it should help improve visibility of this location as a place with people walking, rolling and on bikes trying to cross here. (I did drive down this stretch of Greenwood also today, and the striping was definitely visible on approaching from the south, at least in the daylight). Hopefully the City will come in before too long with some additional ped/bike improvements (like an RRFB, bollarded curb extensions and/or center median, and more permanent crosswalk paint).

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[Rob Fellows]

I want to see the city own whatever it does for traffic controls, and I want to see them done right. And I want a chance for community input. I learned when I was on the pedestrian advisory board that the data shows clearly that poorly located, designed and implemented crosswalks can kill people. I know I’m in the minority opinion on that in this forum, but oh well.

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[David Wiegand]

Rob,

Re: "data shows clearly that poorly located, designed and implemented crosswalks can kill people" - I'd be interested in learning just how (as you say you did).  Can you provide that data, or a citation to support this statement?  I don't want to get into a whole debate on this with regards to this instance, but I am curious. 

- David

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[Sheila Cloney]

Is there any way to remove my name from this thread? Sheila 

On Sep 2, 2021, at 8:11 PM, D Wiegand <kdwi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Rob Fellows]

I’ll see if I can find it. The most important findings were that in some locations (generally crossing four lanes of traffic) the presence of a crosswalk resulted in higher pedestrian collisions and fatalities than similar crossings without - it was a large survey. SDOT responded by closing a lot of crosswalks, but also by restriping roads all over town to three lanes instead of four (road diets). The study didn’t comment on the design issues (visibility, etc.) I’m responding to here, but the whole episode made me more conscious that things like that can matter.

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[Kate Martin]

As much as I like the concept of guerilla installations,  I do worry there a bit because of the invitation to interpret the crosswalk as a reason to check your Instagram, i.e. not pay attention to what's happening in the ROW. At the very least, plastic bollards glued down and some reflective something or others to make the night time work as well. Maybe efflorescent paint? Maybe it already is that. Who knows? 

[Justin Martin]

For those who want to delve into the details -- I think this may be the study that Rob was referring to:

https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/effects_marked_vs_unmarked_crosswalks_zeeger.pdf

That study is also one of the references (#9) on this relevant FHWA article:

http://www.pedbikesafe.org/PEDSAFE/countermeasures_detail.cfm?CM_NUM=4

I can see arguments to be made either way for the addition of only crosswalk striping at this location; however what I hope we see soon is further discussion and examination of additional safety measures here that would work well together with crosswalk striping. The location already has a high volume of pedestrian crossings, including many by children, and I think kids in particular find it difficult (and are less safe in) crossing at the unmarked, unsignalized crosswalks on Greenwood.

I wonder what the night time appearance of this installation is like? And how do other non-traditional crosswalks that the City has allowed in other locations appear in various conditions? Like this one further north on Greenwood Ave:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/greenwood-phinney-greenways/cdb6e97b-6e77-4ee3-bdb9-0f7d3a3495cfn%40googlegroups.com.

[Rich Knox]

Cross walks, official or otherwise, are all well and good, but in the end they’re just paint on pavement. Crosswalks keep pedestrians as safe as sharrows keep bicyclists safe. Pedestrians and cyclists need a signal at this intersection. I cross here frequently and pretty much rely on the kindness of strangers.

Rich

On Sep 3, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Justin Martin <jm.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

For those who want to delve into the details -- I think this may be the study that Rob was referring to:

https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/effects_marked_vs_unmarked_crosswalks_zeeger.pdf

That study is also one of the references (#9) on this relevant FHWA article:

http://www.pedbikesafe.org/PEDSAFE/countermeasures_detail.cfm?CM_NUM=4

I can see arguments to be made either way for the addition of only crosswalk striping at this location; however what I hope we see soon is further discussion and examination of additional safety measures here that would work well together with crosswalk striping. The location already has a high volume of pedestrian crossings, including many by children, and I think kids in particular find it difficult (and are less safe in) crossing at the unmarked, unsignalized crosswalks on Greenwood.

I wonder what the night time appearance of this installation is like? And how do other non-traditional crosswalks that the City has allowed in other locations appear in various conditions? Like this one further north on Greenwood Ave:

<image.png>

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[Brent McFarlane]

See page 25 it looks like 83rd and Greenwood would be a

candidate even though the study is from 2001.

Density of population and frequency of pedestrians crossing there has increased a lot since then. Popular bakery destination - etc.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 3, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Justin Martin <jm.j...@gmail.com> wrote:



For those who want to delve into the details -- I think this may be the study that Rob was referring to:

https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/effects_marked_vs_unmarked_crosswalks_zeeger.pdf

That study is also one of the references (#9) on this relevant FHWA article:

http://www.pedbikesafe.org/PEDSAFE/countermeasures_detail.cfm?CM_NUM=4

I can see arguments to be made either way for the addition of only crosswalk striping at this location; however what I hope we see soon is further discussion and examination of additional safety measures here that would work well together with crosswalk striping. The location already has a high volume of pedestrian crossings, including many by children, and I think kids in particular find it difficult (and are less safe in) crossing at the unmarked, unsignalized crosswalks on Greenwood.

I wonder what the night time appearance of this installation is like? And how do other non-traditional crosswalks that the City has allowed in other locations appear in various conditions? Like this one further north on Greenwood Ave:

<image.png>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/greenwood-phinney-greenways/CAP45yuRpzUxJM2VRZm14u_qPYcJAAAZzzkLzeJk2Srh4fZxSPQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[tomofwa...@gmail.com]

I 100% emphatically agree with Rich. The *unofficial* crosswalk is necessary but not sufficient. 

Tom Lang

(sent from a mobile device)

On Sep 3, 2021, at 19:13, Rich Knox <rich...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cross walks, official or otherwise, are all well and good, but in the end they’re just paint on pavement. Crosswalks keep pedestrians as safe as sharrows keep bicyclists safe. Pedestrians and cyclists need a signal at this intersection. I cross here frequently and pretty much rely on the kindness of strangers.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/greenwood-phinney-greenways/2456B044-62E1-46E2-AB4A-C39524A0A121%40gmail.com.

[Lee Bruch]

Further to the below referenced report “Safety Effects of Marked vs Unmarked Crosswalks at Uncontrolled Location:” 

According to the reference report’s table 1, on its p. 25, the intersection at 83^rd and Greenwood would be “C”, a “candidate for a marked crosswalk.”  Per  SDOT’s 2020 Traffic Report, the traffic volume on Greenwood between 80^th and 85^th is 10,400 AAWDT. The speed limit is 25 mph. It is 2 lanes + turning lane, hence 3 lanes.   

However, that report strongly recommends other provisions be installed as well, such as a signal or RRFB. 

SDOT does have on their docket installation of a signal and marked crosswalk on Greenwood at 83rd, ostensibly as “early as 2021”  http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/programs/greenways-program/n-83rd-st   Hopefully this will spur their action. 

It should be noted that the referenced report, from a study 1996-2001 is outdated.  Thoughts about safe roadway design, especially within cities, have changed a lot since then.  The MUTCD  (Manual of Uniform Traffic Devices) is undergoing a major revision and has stirred considerable discussion and dispute which is still unresolved. 

There were over 25,000 comments submitted to the recently proposed revision to the MUTCD, most complaining that it is  too car-throughput centric; not friendly to pedestrians, bikes, and other users; and not appropriate for cities.  NACTO (the National Association of City Transportation Officials) produced a scathing report:: “Because of the flawed rules in the MUTCD, American streets are unsafe and unwelcoming, limiting possibilities to create the vibrant, walkable neighborhoods that people want.”  They have called for it to be fundamentally reformed with different assumptions.  The summary of their critique is a must read:  https://nacto.org/program/modernizing-federal-standards/ 

My own thoughts (from a layman’s, non-traffic engineer’s viewpoint: 

Highways (and their standards should be designed unde  different rules from city streets.  In this cae, Greenwood Ave over much of its length, especially between 80^th and 87^th  is essentially a city street, with lots of pedestrian and bike activity crossing the street.  Non-vehicular uses should be prioritized. 

Further, although all intersections are legally crosswalks, many drivers either aren’t aware of the rule, or chose to ignore it.  Paited crosswalks help remind them. 

Further, if a road is wide and designed visually without impediments, drivers will, by human nature, treat the road as a highway, including highway speeds.  The more visual clues get added that both consciously and subliminally tell drivers it’s a people place, the more caution the divers will exercise. Those clues include narrow lanes, traffic lights, parked cars, and painted crosswalks. 

IMHO there should be a painted crosswalk at every intersection along Greenwood Ave. in Greenwood’s town center, essentially 85^th to 7^th, and other similar areas along Greenwood.  And if the city could afford it, ideally an RRFB of traffic signal at many (wort?) of them, though that may be fiscally unfeasible. 

Lee Bruch

    206-355-4282 cell & text

    Lee....@outlook.com

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From: greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com <greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of tomofwa...@gmail.com <tomofwa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, September 3, 2021 6:46 PM

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[Douglas MacDonald]

This question of whether a crosswalk in a particular location makes things safer or less safe for walkers is interesting and even perhaps somewhat complicated.  Reasonable experts even take differing views. 

The real problem is that it is an issue on which any City Transportation Department that priorities pedestrian conditions and safe walkability should have an articulated policy position to guide itself and to inform and channel citizen advocacy and activism.  Other cities have such policies.  They vary in their approaches.  But at least they are reasoned, articulated and transparent  

SDOT has no policy whatsoever on the topic  It’s catch as catch can. The only energy directed at the issue is found in citizen activism, which is hard to fault (or for that matter, to whole-heartedly endorse) absent any guidance from the agency that should be leading or at least framing the discussion.

The pressing matter is this:  SDOT - please, what is your (i.e., our) policy? 

And, where there is a crosswalk, please maintain it properly.  Crosswalks don’t paint themselves when they wear out - always where the vehicle traffic, especially turning vehicle traffic,  is heaviest and the pedestrian protection and guidance that a crosswalk provides is most critical. The result in fact  of an improperly maintained crosswalk is a huge detriment to walkers' safety. 

 

Does anyone want to see crowd-sourced photos of the state of SDOT’s crosswalks?  10, 20 or 50? Seattle’s ghost crosswalks are almost everywhere because SDOT can’t/won’t keep up with crosswalk maintenance.

SDOT: How about showing up at the party? And by the way, this is at the very heart of whether SDOT’s Vision Zero is actually focused on strategies and actions that will make a difference now.  Sam Zimbabwe says, “Paint is cheap.”  So do something about SDOTs crosswalk conditions. With paint, at least. Self-audit the results and report conditions (or delegate the condition assessment to someone else) where the pedestrian risk centers as revealed in your own collision data.. Don’t tally “crosswalks painted” in some Move Seattle Levy report that dodges the question: what proportion of SDOT’s “marked crosswalks” as of Sept. 1, 2021 are in fact satisfctority marked as fall and winter, the seasons of greatest pedestrian vulnerability, approach?

Below: Most recent data from the SDOT Annual Traffic Report prepared by the last officially designated City Traffic Engineer, Mr. Chang.

How many of these collision frequency “marked crosswalks” locations looked like this so-called crosswalk in the Aurora pedestrian kill zone? Everyone would agree there should be  crosswalk here. No one would argue this is a safe or satisfactory crosswalk in this neglected condition.

Or on Rainier Avenue:

Or in the Center City (August 31, 2021)

Perhaps a new City Traffic Engineer can get better on top of these interconnected issues at the core of Seattle’s dismal pedestrian safety situation. 

On Sep 3, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Justin Martin <jm.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

For those who want to delve into the details -- I think this may be the study that Rob was referring to:

https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/effects_marked_vs_unmarked_crosswalks_zeeger.pdf

That study is also one of the references (#9) on this relevant FHWA article:

http://www.pedbikesafe.org/PEDSAFE/countermeasures_detail.cfm?CM_NUM=4

I can see arguments to be made either way for the addition of only crosswalk striping at this location; however what I hope we see soon is further discussion and examination of additional safety measures here that would work well together with crosswalk striping. The location already has a high volume of pedestrian crossings, including many by children, and I think kids in particular find it difficult (and are less safe in) crossing at the unmarked, unsignalized crosswalks on Greenwood.

I wonder what the night time appearance of this installation is like? And how do other non-traditional crosswalks that the City has allowed in other locations appear in various conditions? Like this one further north on Greenwood Ave:

<image.png>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/greenwood-phinney-greenways/CAP45yuRpzUxJM2VRZm14u_qPYcJAAAZzzkLzeJk2Srh4fZxSPQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Bruce Sherman]

And that is a really hard intersection for pedestrians.

Bruce

On Sep 2, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Lee Bruch <lee....@outlook.com> wrote:

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[Micheline Seminet]

and on the north side of the same cross walk there are little orange flags waiting to be used.

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 2:28 PM Daigoro Toyama (daihard) <dai...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Anny Gateley]

All I can say is I crossed here 4 times  today for the first time since the crosswalk appeared, and it was a delightful experience. Drivers stopped for me almost immediately. So thanks to whomever made this happen. We live in the neighborhood and cross here often.

[David Wiegand]

Micheline,

I'm not sure which intersection you're talking about, but there are no little orange [hand] flags on the 83rd & Greenwood intersection. (I actually just verified this riding by a bit ago.)

Did you mean instead, 83rd & Linden?

- David

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[D Wiegand]

Next phase crosswalks? 😉

https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/q2iqkx/some_crosswalks_in_quebec_have_an_added_feature/

- David

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021, 13:11 Lee Bruch <lee....@outlook.com> wrote:

I just noticed on Twitter the attached photo of a crosswalk appearing on Greenwood Ave at 83rd

Lee Bruch

    206-355-4282 cell & text

    Lee....@outlook.com

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[D Wiegand]

Ha!  Just heard about this on NPR today:
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/31/1089865057/a-secretive-la-group-has-a-new-mission-paint-untouched-crosswalks

- David

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[tomofwa...@gmail.com]

I love it. We need something like this in Greenwood ;)

Tom Lang

(sent from a mobile device)

On Apr 11, 2022, at 18:35, D Wiegand <kdwi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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