Sign the petition: Complete The Outer Loop of Green Lake Park

[Lee Bruch]

Sign the online petition to improve Green Lake Park by creating a complete outer loop for people biking, walking and running.

Go to https://actionnetwork.org/letters/complete-the-outer-loop-of-green-lake-park

Complete the outer loop of Green Lake Park actionnetwork.org

For additional information see https://www.glwstreets.org/complete-the-loop  and the attached.

Complete the Outer Loop — Green Lake & Wallingford Safe Streets Complete the Outer Loop www.glwstreets.org

ARC  -  Aurora Reimagined Coalition

Email: AuroraReimag...@gmail.com
Website: https://www.got99problems.org/ 

Lee Bruch

    206-355-4282 cell & text

    Lee....@outlook.com

[Lee Bruch]

Alan, you exaggerate.

 (1) the proposal will NOT affect traffic on Aurora ... the two through lanes will remail untouched. Ony th  former bus lane will be removed ... right now, if any traffic enters it, they not re-merge just south of Winona. Merging creates additional slowdowns and crashes, so it might even improve traffic throughput.

 (2) I walk Green Lake Park and Woodland Park regularly, including through the unhoused encampments. I've never had any problem, period. (One of the unfortunate things about this proposal is it will force those camper vans that are parked along the approach to Aurora to move)

Yes, the unhoused are unsightly, but it is merely a reminder of how the US as a nation is failing many of the people that it once helped. (It's not a unique Seattle problem. This unhoused problem is occurring throughout the US).

I can remember when growing up in the 1950's when my small community had two "county homes" for people who needed them. - - and that was typical throughout much of the US.  As everyone knows mental health services per population are now a fraction of what they once were, nationwide. And as major lawsuits have proven, much of the addiction crisis rests squarely with a couple of pharmaceutical companies and how they distorted the medical system.

When younger I used to wonder how one of the wealthiest nations in the world in pre-1800's (India) ended up with a mix of so impoverished and so few wealthy.  Unfortunately, I see with my own eyes how that's happening in the US.

Alan, If you really want to fix that, work at the national level to create the more just society that many wealthy countries have managed to create.  Dout don't just caterwaul   about the unhoused ... try to fix it at a national level. 

I like being able to walk  and chew gum at the same time ... and indeed, it's necessary.  I can try to make our transportation system better. And I can try to make our exclusionary zoning system better.  And I can try to make my own life better, and a lot of other things. All at the same time.

ARC  -  Aurora Reimagined Coalition

Email: AuroraReimag...@gmail.com
Website: https://www.got99problems.org/ 

Lee Bruch

    206-355-4282 cell & text

    Lee....@outlook.com

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From: aurorareimag...@googlegroups.com <aurorareimag...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of alan roth <alan...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 4:00 PM
To: Lee Bruch <lee....@outlook.com>
Cc: ARC Google Group <aurorareimag...@googlegroups.com>; Greenwood-Phinney Greenways Google Group <greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com>; Licton-Haller Greenways Google Group <licton-hall...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Sign the petition: Complete The Outer Loop of Green Lake Park

 

Please do NOT SIGN this petition. It isn't the right solution as it will cause more automobile traffic in Seattle and confuse the city about what is most important to its citizens.

Let's advocate for a different solution that makes our parks safe and clean.

This proposal isn't right for 2 reasons:

1) It will slow traffic on Aurora through narrower lanes, which is already congested.  This will contribute to more pollution.

2) Park safety is the priority - not slowing traffic on greenlake way.  Who wants to bike, walk, or run in a place in a park filled with people shooting guns illegally and lighting illegal fires?

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[Patrick Maunder]

I have to agree with Alan on the underlying premise, there are more urgent needs to address in this city and around Greenlake, and there exists only so much money in a budget. Maybe we can take a break from doing more of the same, in the same places, on the same streets, when a third of this city lacks sidewalks. This bicycle beltway isn't a necessity by any stretch of the imagination and it distracts from more important things than further exacerbating the street use starvation economics created by all of these special "privileged streets" projects. The new outer loop that has been created is a bike path. It's not a pedestrian walk way. Prohibit bikes on the inner loop, then maybe an outer loop becomes more pertinent, but last time I checked bicyclists can currently use all of the streets and paths that already exist around Greenlake freely. Investment in traffic and speed enforcement, cleaning up public spaces, and building more sidewalks would go much further for public and environmental health & safety than blocking off more streets for bicycles and making the car traffic someone else's problem. 

[Cathy Tuttle]

Green Lake is an exceptional park that NW Seattle residents are so lucky to have nearby. It's a jewel that's loved by people throughout the region. Green Lake Park is so loved and so crowded that it's been decades since anyone could comfortably ride a bike around it. Roller bladers, runners, children learning to bike, as well as people simply trying to safely get places by bike will all make use of a wider outer ring of Green Lake, with a bonus of keeping the recreational use of the inner path so much more usable for people taking more leisurely strolls.

Yes, there's a crying need for sidewalks and I encourage people in Licton Haller, Greenwood Phinney and Aurora to continue to advocate to the city to build more safe sidewalks -- particularly around schools and transit stops. The Green Lake path extension calls for a very minor investment of concrete blocks, at a tiny fraction of the cost of complex sidewalk work. The return on this investment of blocks would be a more usable, welcoming place for everyone who loves Green Lake Park. I'm fully supportive of this outer ring!

Cathy Tuttle

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 10:18 PM Patrick Maunder <pjma...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have to agree with Alan on the underlying premise, there are more urgent needs to address in this city and around Greenlake, and there exists only so much money in a budget. Maybe we can take a break from doing more of the same, in the same places, on the same streets, when a third of this city lacks sidewalks. This bicycle beltway isn't a necessity by any stretch of the imagination and it distracts from more important things than further exacerbating the street use starvation economics created by all of these special "privileged streets" projects. The new outer loop that has been created is a bike path. It's not a pedestrian walk way. Prohibit bikes on the inner loop, then maybe an outer loop becomes more pertinent, but last time I checked bicyclists can currently use all of the streets and paths that already exist around Greenlake freely. Investment in traffic and speed enforcement, cleaning up public spaces, and building more sidewalks would go much further for public and environmental health & safety than blocking off more streets for bicycles and making the car traffic someone else's problem. 

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[Daigoro Toyama (daihard)]

Every time I see an argument for more sidewalks in place of (not as well as) bike infrastructure, I'm reminded of this excellent analogy by @TheRicMan (on Twitter).

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A car driver, bicycle rider and a pedestrian are sitting around a table, which has a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The car driver takes eleven of the cookies, then turns to the pedestrian and says "Watch out! That bicycle rider wants to steal your cookie."

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[D Wiegand]

Let's not forget SAFER for all vulnerable users!

- David

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[Patrick Maunder]

In Seattle, it’s more like the bicyclists take 11 and the rest of us fight over the last one. You state things like this and wonder why there’s increasing hostility to bicyclists in this city. I’ve nearly been hit more often by entitled cyclists than cars.  

On Oct 1, 2021, at 8:39 AM, Daigoro Toyama (daihard) <dai...@gmail.com> wrote:

Every time I see an argument for more sidewalks in place of (not as well as) bike infrastructure, I'm reminded of this excellent analogy by @TheRicMan (on Twitter).

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[Brent McFarlane]

I’m not signing the petition. I agree it might be a fun bike ride (except for inhaling the constant exhaust fumes from Aurora). I’m a frequent bicyclist. I don’t see the project as attractive for pedestrians though. We’ll need that west side lane for more transit soon anyway, no doubt. 

The outer loop project looks like a bike project primarily and not a priority considering the many urgent pedestrian and bike safety fixes needed in the region (north Seattle). The city has spent millions on the Green Lake area in recent years. 

Onward,

Brent

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[Brock Howell]

Wow!

When did this crash happen?

Best,

Brock Howell

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[Jonathan Miner]

Patrick,

I am really sorry you have had that experience. Not fun to be hit by anything. However, the idea that bicyclists get 11 out of the 12 in this city is purely laughable. In fact, your anecdote about almost being hit by a cyclist simply proves the point that we need to take more space away from the cars to create safe space for other modalities like pedestrians, bikers, kids on the way to school, etc... It's also 100% not a reasonable position for you to take if you look at the city/state budgets for transportation or the actual pavement on the ground devoted to car travel, car parking, etc. Bike on pedestrian collisions have much more to do with poor infrastructure and limited space left over for non-car uses than they do with entitlement of bikers, etc... I've got a good shrink that can help you escape the car induced Stockholm Syndrome you are experiencing. :) 

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[Patrick Maunder]

You're really sorry, then you mock me? Yes, it must be me and my laughable experiences or an emotional disorder. Not that cyclists treat the bike and "walking" places as practice tracks for tour de france. Your mockery only further illustrates the ablest attitude that we keep enabling by continuously kow towing to every little need of the bicycle community and distracting from fixing the larger root causes of these issues. I used to support and believe these efforts were for the betterment of the environment and communities, then I saw how these things get crammed down our throats with no recourse to fix the problems they create and the blatant disregard for anything that might suggest otherwise. If car traffic is so horrible you can’t bike on a street that you need special accommodations, why would it even be remotely appropriate for someone walking. Furthermore, why would it be appropriate to push that traffic problem onto other streets and provide no support or infrastructure to deal with the increased spillover issues. The intersection of Venn diagrams of people walking and driving is far greater than that of bicyclists and either of those two. Not everyone can or does ride a bike, but the other two are mostly accessible for all. This whole thing is just a backhanded attempt to passively aggressively push people out of cars at the behest of what amounts to a loud vocal minority. In the end, it's only putting us back in cars, because unless we live on special streets, the remaining streets are too dangerous for us to use for walking without sidewalks.  I’ll be sure to communicate to my disabled and elderly neighbors that their fears are laughable twitter and emotional disorder analogies, and if they would only just get a bike they could rejoin feeling safe and a sense of community in their own neighborhoods. Vote or don't vote for it, it's likely already a foregone conclusion it's going to happen, considering how SDOT and these lobbies operate. 

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[Brock Howell]

Hi Patrick,

The proposal is to repurpose space on Aurora along the park that was striped to preclude any driving in it from 2014 to 2020.  Following a repaving, the space was re-striped to allow  traffic back into the space more as an oversight by WSDOT crews more than any other reason.  

The repurposed space would be for walkers, joggers, rollers (people with physical disabilities), and, yes, people who bike.  There would be a concrete jersey barrier to protect them from moving traffic.

Is it necessary? For the relative ease & inexpensive cost of implementing the solution, I believe so.  Drivers regularly kareem off Aurora, endangering pedestrians & others who are using the outer path, and even into the inner path as the photo shared by David illustrates.  And here's one well-publicized story about a runner who was struck by a driver, sending her to the hospital with spinal injuries.  Lee Bruch keeps track of the traffic crash reports for Aurora and I'm sure he'd be willing to share with you the latest data.

The existing outer dirt path is also a mess.  Roots are protruding and mud puddles are everywhere during rains; people (especially runners), regularly twist their ankles and stumble/fall.  The existing outer path is also so narrow in spots that oncoming joggers/pedestrians/bicyclists may require one of them to step into the roadway in order to get around the other.  For these reasons, creating space on Aurora for walkers, joggers, and bicyclists will be a big safety benefit for everyone. 

Putting up a jersey barrier, which is more than 1' in width at its base, would probably take-up too much of the outer lane for drivers to use the outer lane.  So, we might as well use the whole lane to make space for pedestrians and others.

As for your other concerns regarding gunshots and homelessness, those are really separate issues and have different departments and funding sources attached.  I've never personally heard gunshots, but I live on the other side of Green Lake.  For my neighborhood advocacy, I have personally chosen to focus on traffic safety issues. In my professional capacities as well as in my personal regional advocacy, I do work to expand housing abundance and affordability so that more people who are unsheltered can have a more permanent physical home that is safe and healthy.  You are welcome to advocate on the issues you think are most pressing but I see no reason why others shouldn't focus on other important issues as well.  Likewise for city departments and their divisions.

Best,

Brock Howell

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[Gary Yngve]

It sounds like folks are talking past each other and speaking in generalities.  Ideally every road should have sidewalks, at least every arterial.  On some roads, sidewalks are the only safe place for cyclists except for strong and confident cyclists like myself, e.g., going between West Seattle and Beacon Hill.  Where multi-use trails have become too crowded for peds and faster wheeled travelers, that is where having wider or separated paths can help.  Using the rightmost lane of Aurora will ease pressure on the inner loop.  For the Burke-Gilman, faster riders should go on the road, e.g., Seaview or Sandpoint instead, but they don't feel safe there.  
I don't see the issue as entitled cyclists.  Plenty of entitled car drivers too, e.g., if you try to cross at an unmarked crosswalk, and car drivers are much deadlier.  I really don't see the city kow-towing to cyclists either.  It wasn't until this past year that various fragments were finally connected for cyclists to navigate through downtown.  Connections across the Fremont Bridge remain awkward and the Ballard Bridge remains plain dangerous.  Most of the cycling infra that I see seems like dual-purpose: providing access for pedestrians too or taking up space to traffic-calm the road with fewer/narrower lanes, making the road safer for everyone.  Road diets like Stone Way, Nickerson, etc., were wildly successful, and the Greenlake calming/narrowing seems good so far.  

-g

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[Jonathan Miner]

Patrick, sorry for that. I really wasn't trying to mock you. I was attempting some humor which obviously failed, while trying to show you what I believe to be a self evident error in your view of the problem. You are subscribed to a listserve about greenways in our neighborhood, don't be surprised if some of us think cars are the problem and have zero patience for the idea that we should blame fellow non-car users for our problems and conflicts in the limited scraps of space left to us by SDOT and WSDOT. 

Regardless, sorry my reply came off wrong. Stay safe out there. 

Jonathan 

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[Gary Yngve]

The relationship with the unsanctioned homeless encampments in our parks and along our trails is that it is making those places unsafe to ordinary citizens.  I feel safer biking early morning on Sandpoint than on the BGT, where a cyclist was mugged a month ago.  I feel safer driving past the encampment by Dexter and Mercer than biking past it, because I am more protected from a drugged-out attacker in a car.  People are chilled from cycling when their bikes get stolen.  Public safety is transportation safety.  
I don't by the "equity" argument either: the people most hurt by this are working class who get their stuff stolen and have less spare money to replace it, people living in small apartments who need our parks for open space.  While there are some campers who are truly have some bad luck and are working to get themselves to a better place, a lot of the campers in Greenlake are the opposite: uncontrolled addicts, professional thieves, sovereign citizens wanting to live off the grid by their own rules, etc.  And they are destroying our city, setting fires, chopping down trees, leaving human waste and needles everywhere... I'd have much more patience if they were practicing leave-no-trace.  Free housing is nice, and we should encourage everyone to become functioning members of society again, but if folks will not relocate to a less sensitive area, refuse rehab, engage in crimes beyond stealing food and necessities for personal use, etc., then they need jail, mandatory treatment, etc.  I'm sick and tired of my family not being able to enjoy our parks and trails.  We need carrots and sticks.

-g

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[D Wiegand]

I think this is from 2015. Variations on this sort of "accident" have occured since then.

It's a big part of the reason that that Jersey barrier needs to go up - it's not just about more routes for cyclists - it's actually about protecting ALL park users from out of control cars speeding by on an adjacent state highway!

- David

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[D Wiegand]

I disagree, completely Alan. It IS the right solution, absolutely.

| 1) It will slow traffic on Aurora through narrower lanes, which is already congested.  This will contribute to more pollution.

You are right, it WILL slow traffic, maybe even down to the speed limit.  Are you saying that cars going the speed limit cause more pollution? Horsefeathers.

|  2) Park safety is the priority - not slowing traffic on greenlake way.  Who wants to bike, walk, or run in a place in a park filled with people shooting guns illegally and lighting illegal fires?

Absolutely a jersey barrier will contribute to park users' safety twofold - by being a physical barrier from harm, and by slowing them down (as we both agree will happen).  As to the "people shooting guns illegally and lighting illegal fires" - that is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

The mere fact that a jersey barrier exists in the middle of Aurora around the lake should be proof enough that jersey barriers protect motorists from eachother - shouldn't park users be afforded the same "courtesy"?  Absolutely.

- David

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:01 PM alan roth <alan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Please do NOT SIGN this petition. It isn't the right solution as it will cause more automobile traffic in Seattle and confuse the city about what is most important to its citizens.

Let's advocate for a different solution that makes our parks safe and clean.

This proposal isn't right for 2 reasons:

1) It will slow traffic on Aurora through narrower lanes, which is already congested.  This will contribute to more pollution.

2) Park safety is the priority - not slowing traffic on greenlake way.  Who wants to bike, walk, or run in a place in a park filled with people shooting guns illegally and lighting illegal fires?

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 3:36 PM Lee Bruch <lee....@outlook.com> wrote:

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[Douglas MacDonald]

There are non-car users (such as me, unable to hold a driver’s license since 2007 because of vision impairment) who care quite a lot about safety and comfort of people who walk and need to be protected from a range of people on two wheels (often on motorized 2-wheels) who travel too fast and often in places where they are threatening to walkers and largely indifferent to users on foot. 

One indicia of Pedestrian Hostile Infrastructure is the construction of facilities that walkers and two-wheelers must share (by design) that do not post the simple legends in the routinely available traffic signs below, which are exhortations to vehicle operator courtesy (yes, bicycles are vehicles), and also of the law.    

(Seattle Municipal Code) 11.44.120 - Riding on sidewalk or public path

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Every person operating a bicycle upon any sidewalk or public path shall operate the same in a careful and prudent manner and at a rate of speed no greater than is reasonable and proper under the conditions existing at the point of operation, taking into account the amount and character of pedestrian traffic, grade and width of sidewalk or public path, and condition of surface, and shall obey all traffic-control devices. Every person operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk or public path shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian thereon, and shall give an audible signal before overtaking and passing any pedestrian. Operation of a class 3 electric-assisted bicycle on a sidewalk is unlawful, unless there is no alternative to travel over a sidewalk as part of a bicycle or pedestrian path.

Got that part about the “audible signal?” “On your left” does not mean the two-wheel rider gains the right of way. The rider and the walker may think it means - because that seems now to be its accepted cultural significance - “Look our for yourself, because I’m blasting by.”  That we have reached that point in common usage and understanding is a bad sign for the safe management of multiple users in limited space. 

Further, it is not legal to operate  motorized foot scooter (rented from an SDOT vendor or privately owned) on a sidewalk in Seattle.  

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[alan roth]

Please do NOT SIGN this petition. It isn't the right solution as it will cause more automobile traffic in Seattle and confuse the city about what is most important to its citizens.

Let's advocate for a different solution that makes our parks safe and clean.

This proposal isn't right for 2 reasons:

1) It will slow traffic on Aurora through narrower lanes, which is already congested.  This will contribute to more pollution.

2) Park safety is the priority - not slowing traffic on greenlake way.  Who wants to bike, walk, or run in a place in a park filled with people shooting guns illegally and lighting illegal fires?

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 3:36 PM Lee Bruch <lee....@outlook.com> wrote:

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[Brock Howell]

No, the Bathhouse Theatre parking lot will still be accessible.

SDOT has not yet started designing anything.  There are many potential configurations for West Green Lake Drive.  But no configuration would eliminate access to that parking lot.

Again, SDOT has not begun designing potential options.  They have committed to do this work in 2022, and have stated that they will begin community outreach & engagement in November of this year.

Best,

Brock Howell

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 5:06 PM Tom D <tdonne...@gmail.com> wrote:

Lee;

You are correct that the bus lane stops where the Northbound  "E" line turns off at N 63rd St. to travel down Linden Ave. N  serving N 65th and N 72nd stops and re-enter Aurora at Winona Ave N. The lane between N 63rd St underpass to Winona is open to traffic all hours and between bus lane hours it is open to all traffic North and South of Winona.

What you don't mention is where the traffic from the closed West Green Lake Dr. N. will go. Contrary to the pipe dream that displaced traffic simply disappears, it will go somewhere and I have yet to see the impact addressed. 

I am assuming, but cannot tell from the SDOT info., that people needing to get to the big parking lot by the Bathhouse Theater will be able to get to it as local traffic. Will the bike lane creation remove access to this lot?

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[alan roth]

I respectfully disagree.  This petition, if acted upon, will result in a LESS safe park with more TRAFFIC.  Do not sign it.

The city can't do everything at once. We should prioritize the safety of children and people enjoying the park.  Asking the city to be worried about twisted ankles of cyclists OVER the risk of an unsafe park because police won't respond to 911 or gunshots being fired send our elected representatives the wrong message.  We need to take care of our own communities before looking nationally. This is a local issue and our community's responsibility to solve. I won't paint our problem as being of victim of a pharmaceutical company when there are solutions we can drive to ensure Greenlake park is safe.

A person visiting greenlake should not have to worry about stepping on infected needles or getting shot because they are going for a walk.  The Cascade Bicycle Club - which advocates for cyclists - lists quite clearly that cycling carries inherent risks and that participants are aware of and accept.  From their website:  "These risks include falling, colliding with vehicles and other cyclists, encountering road hazards like potholes and cracks, crossing train tracks, and being chased by animals, as well as bicycle failures and malfunctions."  The risk of getting injured due to an unsafe environment in Greenlake is not something a cyclist can mitigate by wearing a helmet or maintaining their bike better.  It requires better policing and city policies.

Moreover, asking the city to invest money in reducing these risks to cyclists over the risks to ALL visitors to Greenlake appears exclusive and divisive.  What % of cyclists at Greenlake are from neighborhoods that are historically underfunded?  How does this funding lead to a more equitable environment when it only benefits cyclists rather than making investments that benefit all visitors?

I'm glad there is engagement to make Seattle a better place, but this proposal is not the way forward.

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:39 PM Lee Bruch <Lee....@outlook.com> wrote:

[Sylvia and Jerry Stewart]

I am not sure what outer ring proposal you are referencing.  If it is the outer ring proposal that would appropriate the entire right lane of Aurora along the west side of Greenlake, I am not for it.

 

There is already a very nice bike path along Woodland Place North that continues onto Linden Avenue to Winona Ave North.  Its wide, and traffic along the street has the 25 mph speed limit unlike Aurora Ave.  It’s a much nicer place to ride and about the same distance.  Aurora Ave needs that third lane for transit and buses as well as cars.  As much as we would like them to, cars are not going away and we need to embrace the electric car revolution to reduce greenhouse gases – if we don’t we won’t curb the gases.

 

That said I would be in favor of some type of barrier rising from the curve adjacent to the furthest right Northbound lane of Aurora to prevent accidents that can happen when a car jumps the curb.  That might also deter things like the homeless woman I drove up behind several weeks ago who was walking slowly in the right lane of traffic going northbound along Aurora while cars in the left hand lane were whizzing by.  I stayed behind her going 5 mph with my emergency lights flashing until she finally decided to go onto the sidewalk.  I couldn’t get out of the car or make a call while driving and even if I could make a call, who could I call who would actually arrive in time to do something, and what action would they be allowed to take?

 

But I digress(ed)  (twice).  Just wanted to put forth a different idea for the bike path.

Sylvia Schweinberger

 

From: aurorareimag...@googlegroups.com <aurorareimag...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of D Wiegand
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 8:48 AM
To: greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com
Cc: alan roth <alan...@gmail.com>; ARC Google Group <aurorareimag...@googlegroups.com>; Licton-Haller Greenways Google Group <licton-hall...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Sign the petition: Complete The Outer Loop of Green Lake Park

 

Let's not forget SAFER for all vulnerable users!

 

- David

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[Tom D]

Lee;

You are correct that the bus lane stops where the Northbound  "E" line turns off at N 63rd St. to travel down Linden Ave. N  serving N 65th and N 72nd stops and re-enter Aurora at Winona Ave N. The lane between N 63rd St underpass to Winona is open to traffic all hours and between bus lane hours it is open to all traffic North and South of Winona.

What you don't mention is where the traffic from the closed West Green Lake Dr. N. will go. Contrary to the pipe dream that displaced traffic simply disappears, it will go somewhere and I have yet to see the impact addressed. 

I am assuming, but cannot tell from the SDOT info., that people needing to get to the big parking lot by the Bathhouse Theater will be able to get to it as local traffic. Will the bike lane creation remove access to this lot?

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:39 PM Lee Bruch <Lee....@outlook.com> wrote:

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[Lucia Sanchez]

I'm signing it. There's no safe way to do a loop right now with my kids. It affects us often. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/licton-hallergreenways/1A4D2E51-BAFA-4E7F-8368-79077D9704E6%40me.com.

[Tanya Roesijadi]



Hi,

It looks like a lot of bikers are on this email list. I witnessed a car drive into a biker & cause them to crash last night.  It occurred within the Greenlake bike lane network. The crash happened in the bike lane at 12th NE & Ravenna Blvd last night (9/30/21) at 8 pm. I have a video of the crash.

If you know of this person & they would like this video please give it to them. I have more footage & the license #. Please have them contact me. They got up, said they were ok, didn’t hit their head & rode off. They were on an ebike & got through the next intersection. I didn’t think I could catch them on my regular bike by the time I remembered I probably had a video of the crash. Been trying to figure out how I might connect them with this video. 

Thank you,

Tanya

[Gary Yngve]

"There is already a very nice bike path along Woodland Place North that continues onto Linden Avenue to Winona Ave North.  Its wide, and traffic along the street has the 25 mph speed limit unlike Aurora Ave.  It’s a much nicer place to ride and about the same distance.  Aurora Ave needs that third lane for transit and buses as well as cars.  As much as we would like them to, cars are not going away and we need to embrace the electric car revolution to reduce greenhouse gases – if we don’t we won’t curb the gases."

There is no bike lane at the underpass under Aurora.  There is a sidewalk, if it isn't taken over by tents.  Once the bike lane resumes in Linden, it is a narrow door-zone bike lane that I actually refuse to bike in.  And then Winona: no bike lane, and complicated driveways and backed up traffic around PCC.

The buses take Linden/Winona northbound, which makes a lot of sense, because any commuter getting off the bus between 55th and 70th is going somewhere to the west of Aurora.  

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On Oct 1, 2021, at 11:48 AM, Brock Howell <br...@bikehappycascadia.com> wrote:



Wow!

When did this crash happen?

Best,

Brock Howell

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 8:48 AM D Wiegand <kdwi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Let's not forget SAFER for all vulnerable users!

<greenlakecarcrash.jpg>

- David

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:09 AM Cathy Tuttle <cathy....@gmail.com> wrote:

Green Lake is an exceptional park that NW Seattle residents are so lucky to have nearby. It's a jewel that's loved by people throughout the region. Green Lake Park is so loved and so crowded that it's been decades since anyone could comfortably ride a bike around it. Roller bladers, runners, children learning to bike, as well as people simply trying to safely get places by bike will all make use of a wider outer ring of Green Lake, with a bonus of keeping the recreational use of the inner path so much more usable for people taking more leisurely strolls.

Yes, there's a crying need for sidewalks and I encourage people in Licton Haller, Greenwood Phinney and Aurora to continue to advocate to the city to build more safe sidewalks -- particularly around schools and transit stops. The Green Lake path extension calls for a very minor investment of concrete blocks, at a tiny fraction of the cost of complex sidewalk work. The return on this investment of blocks would be a more usable, welcoming place for everyone who loves Green Lake Park. I'm fully supportive of this outer ring!

Cathy Tuttle

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 10:18 PM Patrick Maunder <pjma...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have to agree with Alan on the underlying premise, there are more urgent needs to address in this city and around Greenlake, and there exists only so much money in a budget. Maybe we can take a break from doing more of the same, in the same places, on the same streets, when a third of this city lacks sidewalks. This bicycle beltway isn't a necessity by any stretch of the imagination and it distracts from more important things than further exacerbating the street use starvation economics created by all of these special "privileged streets" projects. The new outer loop that has been created is a bike path. It's not a pedestrian walk way. Prohibit bikes on the inner loop, then maybe an outer loop becomes more pertinent, but last time I checked bicyclists can currently use all of the streets and paths that already exist around Greenlake freely. Investment in traffic and speed enforcement, cleaning up public spaces, and building more sidewalks would go much further for public and environmental health & safety than blocking off more streets for bicycles and making the car traffic someone else's problem. 

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[Lee Bruch]

I don’t understand Gary’s logic.

There are no buses that use Aurora between where they get off to go to Linden (south of WGLWN,) and where they rejoin at Winona) And there would be no people theyd be serving in that segment.

 Right now, any cars using that lane must merge back unto the two general purpose lanes before Winona (merging causes slowdowns and collisions). 

The usual people using that lane (like me) are using the sliplane to speed down a residential street as cut-through traffic. That slip lane should go, to be replaced by a right only exit into NB aurora. The delay for me and others by going to Winona or 80th is measure in seconds, not minutes. 

I’m a strong believer in preventing cut through traffic, especially on residential streets, and having traffic only use arterials

Lee Bruch

Via clumsy thumbs on my iPhone

206-355-4282

Lee....@outlook.com

On Oct 1, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Gary Yngve <gary....@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/greenwood-phinney-greenways/CAOGgQSLapxmo5cM1EneMrAgMB1-Q7GWz8B%3DAWGoohiji6C1A1A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Lee Bruch]

I think the issue with many people is that someting like 20% to 30% of the block faces in seattle TOTALLY lack sidewalks, and many of the rest are unsafe or in poor conditions. Given that, where should funds be prioritized?

Mind you, it doesnt work to throw all funds at one priority. The decision is much more nuanced than that. But there is a real prioritization question that can’t be ignored.

Which also gets to the prioritization of space, and there is very limited road space. And now there’s an explosion of things demanding to use that space. Theres no longer the old horse, car, truck, bike, ped question . Now there are an infinity of manual and motor and electric driven rolling things, many at various speeds. Including robotic boxes rolling along sidewalks delivering goods. 

Where do they all fit? 

To me there are only 4 choices. Increase the right-of-way, or give less space to cars, or less space to any of the other modes, or restrict some modes.

Its going to be an interesting decade while that fight plays out

Lee Bruch

Via clumsy thumbs on my iPhone

206-355-4282

Lee....@outlook.com

On Oct 1, 2021, at 8:21 PM, Lee Bruch <lee....@gmail.com> wrote:

 I don’t understand Gary’s logic.

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[Daigoro Toyama (daihard)]

One way to deal with the new electric travel devices, such as electric scooters and skateboards, is to treat them the same as acoustic and electric bicycles. Providing adequate space for all the "wheel" users should be a viable option, provided that the electric devices are speed-governed. For instance, e-bikes are limited to 25 km/h to be allowed in the bike paths in the Netherlands.

IMO, the only sustainable choice is to increase the space for non-car travel modes. How much of the space should be allocated for people on foot vs others is another question, and it probably depends on the configuration of the street in question.

Dai

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[Gary Yngve]

My logic was that it makes sense for northbound buses to continue to use Linden (because that’s where bus commuters live), so removing the lane on Aurora won’t impact buses.

I would use this lane on Aurora for biking were it converted into a MUP.  I do not consider Linden->Winona to be a reasonable alternate route due to door zones.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/greenwood-phinney-greenways/4DBE7DCA-C326-406D-869E-724033B34C61%40gmail.com.

[Michael Richards]

---

From: greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com <greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gary Yngve <gary....@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 2, 2021 7:58:11 AM
To: greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com <greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Sign the petition: Complete The Outer Loop of Green Lake Park

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/greenwood-phinney-greenways/CAOGgQS%2BT-gWM4tF7UngZcES4YKoEQ_KcMoRSpFrnxVsbEFjQ2w%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tom D]

David;

All the focus seems to be on the closure of the East most lane of Aurora Ave N between where the Northbound "E" line exits Aurora to where it re-enters at Winona Ave N.  

If the primary goal is to protect the pedestrians along the Eastern side of Aurora, then a jersey barrier in the WSDOT right of way would do the trick. 

What seems to be missing from the petition request and other communications is what happens when the proposed bike lanes at their North end when they leave Aurora Ave. N.  Is it not true that the goal is to close West Green Lake Dr. N to vehicular traffic to accommodate the bikers that might use the Aurora link?  

Also how will anti-clockwise traffic around the North end of the Lake get to the proposed West Green Lake Dr. N bike lanes since the new anti-clockwise Green Lake bike lanes are redirected to 

Green Lake Dr. N.  at Densmore Ave. N. 

This project seems to be a bit more complex than is being discussed. 

Tom

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[Rich Knox]

The north end of the lake is already problematic for westbound bicyclists who need to continue onto Winona or 77th. On the east side of the lake it’s awkward to access 71st from the PBL.

Rich

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[Lee Bruch]

I had a very interesting occurrence on the East Green Lake protected bike lane the other day.

I was riding north on the PBL. At about 63rd, give or take a block, A car turned from the side street (63rd?) to go southbound ... they turned into the PBL (like they were a bike)  and were headed towards me.

To do that they had to go between the white posts, but at the intersection they were widely spaced.  They were about a block in front of me when both of us stopped.  We waited awhile a block apart, neither of us moving, then they carefully turned back into the car lane without hitting a post. When passing me all the occupants waved.  I couldn't tell if they were getting in their jollies, or they had really been confused and were waving an apology.

Lee Bruch

    206-355-4282 cell & text

    Lee....@outlook.com

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Sent: Tuesday, October 5, 2021 4:13 PM

To: greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com <greenwood-phi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Sign the petition: Complete The Outer Loop of Green Lake Park

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