Re Re: Re [Green-India] Re: Talk on SunCube in Pune this evening
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chan...@sancharnet.in
Nov 22, 2009, 12:03:33 AM11/22/09
to green...@googlegroups.com
Dear Rangan & All,
Best way to substantiate any claims is to prove it in field.
I have already offered the companies Rs. 10 per kWh for any kind of installation, any technology, they may install on our rooftop. Some of our Green India members might be knowing that I already have fossil fuel free house since last 4 years. All our cooking requirements are met through parabolic solar cooker and biogas on kitchen waste. (Kitchen waste is not adequate, we put additional food waste from adjoining restaurant). On the same lines I will also like to give away my power requirements if some company is ready to make any kind of renewable energy installation. We can promote this on very large scale through our network (www.princeindia.org) if the point is proved. I may extend my offer that if the claims are substantiated then I will pay the capital investment and retain the system. I have not come across any company who have taken such offers as challange to support their claims and it all seems to be a dubious business, just to gain govt. subsidies with false claims. I will be more than happy if I am proved wrong.
If our offer of Rs. 10/- per kWh is not acceptable to such manufacturers, they are free to throw their own offers. I am curious to see responses of these manufacturers, Suncube or even other RE technologies for domestic use.
Regards,
Prof. Ajay Chandak.
www.princeindia.org
--------Original Message -------
> Hi everyone,
> A correction in my earlier email, when I said "I am sure of all the
> assumptions", I meant "I am not sure of all their assumptions".
>
> Rangan, I am not sure about the Rs 9-10/kWh cost of generation. The
> plant load factor that they are assuming is 28%. So annual generation
> would be ~736 kWh. The plant life they are assuming is 25 years. So
> just merely annualizing their Rs 45,000 cost over 25 years and
> dividing by the total electricity generated will give a cost of
> generation of Rs 2.5/kWh. Of course, this neglects a whole lot of
> things like O&M costs, discount rates, debt equity etc. So perhaps,
> Rangan, I misinterpreted how you calculated your cost of generation.
I annualised with a discount rate of 10% (taking time value of money is
essential in any costing). Most tech developers try to show more
attractive numbers. I feel that if 45000 is the total cost (unlikely),
this is still worth exploring.
Rangan
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chan...@sancharnet.in
Nov 22, 2009, 12:06:50 AM11/22/09
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Dear Ranjit,
Can you send your cost calculation excel sheet across for all our members.
28%, depreciation rates, discount rate (16%), O&M costs for PV (Rs 9
lakhs/MW) according to CERC norms.
For 100% equity, the average cost of generation comes to Rs 3.10/kWh
and levelized cost of generation (uses the above discount rate) to Rs
4.10/kWh. For a 30% equity, avg cost of generation is Rs 4.30/kWh and
levelized cost of generation is Rs 6.70/kWh.
These numbers do not take into account any return on equity, which
will basically increase the price to almost Rs 15/kWh in case of 100%
equity and Rs 10/kWh for 30% equity.
So my guess is they are quoting the average cost of generation. But
even with a 30% equity and including the generous RoE accorded by
CERC, the levelized tariff is Rs 10/kWh, which is very competitive.
Manu, Mr. Kelkar did not mention how many kWh the unit will generate
in India. He assumed a PLF of 28%, which leads to 736 kWh/y for the
300 Wp units. That's about 6 kWhs a day. Most decent Indian sites have
4.5 to 5.5 DNI. So I would imagine the output to be less in India.
Rooftops in cities will have much more diffuse component, so the
output will drop further. Also, I am not sure about whether the Rs
45,000 is cost of mfg, or retail.
Cheers,
Ranjit
On Nov 20, 8:59 pm, "Rangan Banerjee" <ran...@iitb.ac.in> wrote:
> Interesting data. Though Rs 3-4.5/ kWh does not seem correct
> If we annualise the capital cost Rs 45000 and divide by the annual output
> (300 W p 2000 hrs/ yrapprox 600 kWh)we get about Rs 9-10/kWh itself.
> Still this is worth exploring
> Rangan
>
> > --------Original Message -------
> > Hello everyone,
>
> > I happened to attend Square Engineering's presentation in Pune.
>
> > Mr. Kelkar, the CEO of Square gave the presentation. There was no
> > product demonstration (expectedly).
>
> > The Suncube is a 300Wp CPV unit. It has nine units in one module, each
> > with a 1 cm2 triple junction PV cell. The concentration is 1000x. The
> > fresnel lens used is ~33cmX33cm. Efficiency is approximately 37%.
> > What I thought interesting was that the tracking mechanism is a very
> > small parasitic load. Tracking is done by sensing the voltage of the
> > actual triple junction cell, basically homing down on the position
> > that gives the highest voltage. It also memorizes the positions along
> > with the time of day, so it can reference that for the next day, in
> > case there are intermittent clouds. It rests face down during the
> > night. The next morning it computes the starting point based on the
> > setting position on the previous day.
>
> > Cost is Rs 45,000 per unit, which roughly results in USD 3.3/Wp, which
> > is quite low given that PV is between USD 2-4/Wp today. And of course,
> > the cost of generation is more important, and CPV being more efficient
> > than normal PV will generate more. According to Square, the cost of
> > generation is between Rs 3-4.5/kWh for a 25 year plant. That is really
> > low, and is at grid parity. I am sure of all the assumptions in their
> > calculations, but even if it is double that, it is still way
> > attractive compared to normal PV. This cost of generation most likely
> > does not include the IRR etc for the developer. So it might be Rs 6-7/
> > kWh, still more attractive to the Rs12-15/kWh for normal PV.
>
> > Here are the specs of Suncube:
> >http://www.squareengg.com/Images/SUNCUBE%20SPECIFICATIONS.pdf
>
> > Square also talked about their "Big Dish", a concentrating parabolic
> > dish.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Ranjit
>
> > On Nov 19, 11:52 am, Manu Sharma <orangeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> If anyone in Pune got to attend this, please share your notes!
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Manu
>
> >> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Manu Sharma <orangeh...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Members based in and around Pune might want to attend this talk by Mr.
> >> > Deepak Kelkar of Square Engineering, Indian licensee of SunCube, a
> >> > pioneering Concentrated Photovoltaic product.
>
> >> > The talk is being organised by Indian Institute of Production
> >> Engineers
> >> > (IIPE), Pune
>
> >> > What : Renewable Energy sources ? Specially Solar.
> >> > Speaker : Mr. Deepak Kelkar
> >> > Venue: COEP Pune Production Engineering department.
> >> > Date: Wednesday, 18th Noember 2009.
> >> > Time: 18=30 hrs. to 20=00 hrs.
> >> > Charges: Free for all. No registration required.
>
> >> > Mr. Deepak Kelkar is mechanical engineer. He has huge experience in
> >> sugar
> >> > industry to install and commission different equipments. He has
> >> started
> >> > Squre Engineering Pvt. Ltd. in 1986, as EPC company and they are
> >> specialized
> >> > in Renewable Solar energy. They have collaboration with many renouned
> >> names
> >> > in the field. They are working in renewable energy sources since 1992.
> >> Mr.
> >> > will be sharing his experieces in this field. Suare Engineering has
> >> > developed SUNCUBE ? innovative system. The system genrates DC power by
> >> using
> >> > ?Tripple Junction PV cells under concentration of 1000X of Sun light.
>
> >> > Source:
> >> >http://punetech.com/renewable-energy-sources-solar-energy-iipe-meet-1...
>
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Manu
Can you send your cost calculation excel sheet across for all our members.
Regards,
Prof. Ajay Chandak.
www.princeindia.org
--------Original Message -------
Hi everyone,
A correction in my earlier email, when I said "I am sure of all the
assumptions", I meant "I am not sure of all their assumptions".
Rangan, I am not sure about the Rs 9-10/kWh cost of generation. The
plant load factor that they are assuming is 28%. So annual generation
would be ~736 kWh. The plant life they are assuming is 25 years. So
just merely annualizing their Rs 45,000 cost over 25 years and
dividing by the total electricity generated will give a cost of
generation of Rs 2.5/kWh. Of course, this neglects a whole lot of
things like O&M costs, discount rates, debt equity etc. So perhaps,
Rangan, I misinterpreted how you calculated your cost of generation.
Anyway, I did a background check on their numbers. I assumed a PLF of
Prof. Ajay Chandak.
www.princeindia.org
--------Original Message -------
Hi everyone,
A correction in my earlier email, when I said "I am sure of all the
assumptions", I meant "I am not sure of all their assumptions".
Rangan, I am not sure about the Rs 9-10/kWh cost of generation. The
plant load factor that they are assuming is 28%. So annual generation
would be ~736 kWh. The plant life they are assuming is 25 years. So
just merely annualizing their Rs 45,000 cost over 25 years and
dividing by the total electricity generated will give a cost of
generation of Rs 2.5/kWh. Of course, this neglects a whole lot of
things like O&M costs, discount rates, debt equity etc. So perhaps,
Rangan, I misinterpreted how you calculated your cost of generation.
28%, depreciation rates, discount rate (16%), O&M costs for PV (Rs 9
lakhs/MW) according to CERC norms.
For 100% equity, the average cost of generation comes to Rs 3.10/kWh
and levelized cost of generation (uses the above discount rate) to Rs
4.10/kWh. For a 30% equity, avg cost of generation is Rs 4.30/kWh and
levelized cost of generation is Rs 6.70/kWh.
These numbers do not take into account any return on equity, which
will basically increase the price to almost Rs 15/kWh in case of 100%
equity and Rs 10/kWh for 30% equity.
So my guess is they are quoting the average cost of generation. But
even with a 30% equity and including the generous RoE accorded by
CERC, the levelized tariff is Rs 10/kWh, which is very competitive.
Manu, Mr. Kelkar did not mention how many kWh the unit will generate
in India. He assumed a PLF of 28%, which leads to 736 kWh/y for the
300 Wp units. That's about 6 kWhs a day. Most decent Indian sites have
4.5 to 5.5 DNI. So I would imagine the output to be less in India.
Rooftops in cities will have much more diffuse component, so the
output will drop further. Also, I am not sure about whether the Rs
45,000 is cost of mfg, or retail.
Cheers,
Ranjit
On Nov 20, 8:59 pm, "Rangan Banerjee" <ran...@iitb.ac.in> wrote:
> Interesting data. Though Rs 3-4.5/ kWh does not seem correct
> If we annualise the capital cost Rs 45000 and divide by the annual output
> (300 W p 2000 hrs/ yrapprox 600 kWh)we get about Rs 9-10/kWh itself.
> Still this is worth exploring
> Rangan
>
> > --------Original Message -------
> > Hello everyone,
>
> > I happened to attend Square Engineering's presentation in Pune.
>
> > Mr. Kelkar, the CEO of Square gave the presentation. There was no
> > product demonstration (expectedly).
>
> > The Suncube is a 300Wp CPV unit. It has nine units in one module, each
> > with a 1 cm2 triple junction PV cell. The concentration is 1000x. The
> > fresnel lens used is ~33cmX33cm. Efficiency is approximately 37%.
> > What I thought interesting was that the tracking mechanism is a very
> > small parasitic load. Tracking is done by sensing the voltage of the
> > actual triple junction cell, basically homing down on the position
> > that gives the highest voltage. It also memorizes the positions along
> > with the time of day, so it can reference that for the next day, in
> > case there are intermittent clouds. It rests face down during the
> > night. The next morning it computes the starting point based on the
> > setting position on the previous day.
>
> > Cost is Rs 45,000 per unit, which roughly results in USD 3.3/Wp, which
> > is quite low given that PV is between USD 2-4/Wp today. And of course,
> > the cost of generation is more important, and CPV being more efficient
> > than normal PV will generate more. According to Square, the cost of
> > generation is between Rs 3-4.5/kWh for a 25 year plant. That is really
> > low, and is at grid parity. I am sure of all the assumptions in their
> > calculations, but even if it is double that, it is still way
> > attractive compared to normal PV. This cost of generation most likely
> > does not include the IRR etc for the developer. So it might be Rs 6-7/
> > kWh, still more attractive to the Rs12-15/kWh for normal PV.
>
> > Here are the specs of Suncube:
> >http://www.squareengg.com/Images/SUNCUBE%20SPECIFICATIONS.pdf
>
> > Square also talked about their "Big Dish", a concentrating parabolic
> > dish.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Ranjit
>
> > On Nov 19, 11:52 am, Manu Sharma <orangeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> If anyone in Pune got to attend this, please share your notes!
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Manu
>
> >> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Manu Sharma <orangeh...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Members based in and around Pune might want to attend this talk by Mr.
> >> > Deepak Kelkar of Square Engineering, Indian licensee of SunCube, a
> >> > pioneering Concentrated Photovoltaic product.
>
> >> > The talk is being organised by Indian Institute of Production
> >> Engineers
> >> > (IIPE), Pune
>
> >> > What : Renewable Energy sources ? Specially Solar.
> >> > Speaker : Mr. Deepak Kelkar
> >> > Venue: COEP Pune Production Engineering department.
> >> > Date: Wednesday, 18th Noember 2009.
> >> > Time: 18=30 hrs. to 20=00 hrs.
> >> > Charges: Free for all. No registration required.
>
> >> > Mr. Deepak Kelkar is mechanical engineer. He has huge experience in
> >> sugar
> >> > industry to install and commission different equipments. He has
> >> started
> >> > Squre Engineering Pvt. Ltd. in 1986, as EPC company and they are
> >> specialized
> >> > in Renewable Solar energy. They have collaboration with many renouned
> >> names
> >> > in the field. They are working in renewable energy sources since 1992.
> >> Mr.
> >> > will be sharing his experieces in this field. Suare Engineering has
> >> > developed SUNCUBE ? innovative system. The system genrates DC power by
> >> using
> >> > ?Tripple Junction PV cells under concentration of 1000X of Sun light.
>
> >> > Source:
> >> >http://punetech.com/renewable-energy-sources-solar-energy-iipe-meet-1...
>
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Manu
Deepak Kelkar
Nov 23, 2009, 1:17:35 AM11/23/09
to India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living
Dear Sir,
This is Deepak Kelkar from Square Engineering Pvt Ltd and wishing you
a very good day.
As regards to the discussions in this group I will like to inform you
as follows:
Average insolation : 5.5kwh/sqmtr/day.
Aperture area of suncube : 1 sqmtr.
Conversion efficiency of module: 31% ( www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au)
DC kwh available per sqmtr : 5.5 X 0.31= 1.705 kwh per cube.
Coupled directly through grid tied inverter to grid having 96%
efficiency (sunny buoy etc) = 1.638 kwh/sqmtr/day AC side.
Consider 300 days of working per annum: 491.04 kwh/year AC side.
25 years of life span: 491.04 X 25 = 12276 kwh
Retail price of Rs. 50000.00
Then 50000/12276= Rs. 4.07/kwh leveled cost.
No consideration has been given to depreciation benefits, subsidies
etc. Today the power supplied to us by utilities is subsidies one.
We have started manufacturing cubes and have installed the same at
various places. Our data shows that on an average we are able to
generate around 1.2-1.45kwh/day through battery chargers. Grid
connected at LT side is not allowed still in our Area.
As regards to making a PPA with you for Rs. 10.00/kwh, we would come
back to you asap with proposal. Why not buy and get a hands on
experience?
I would propose a minimum plant size of 250kw with free land made
available to us and PPA of Rs. 15.50 per kwh for span of 15 years with
down payment of 25% of the plant cost.
I assure you of our best service.
Regards
Deepak Kelkar.
> Posting Guidelineshttp://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
This is Deepak Kelkar from Square Engineering Pvt Ltd and wishing you
a very good day.
As regards to the discussions in this group I will like to inform you
as follows:
Average insolation : 5.5kwh/sqmtr/day.
Aperture area of suncube : 1 sqmtr.
Conversion efficiency of module: 31% ( www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au)
DC kwh available per sqmtr : 5.5 X 0.31= 1.705 kwh per cube.
Coupled directly through grid tied inverter to grid having 96%
efficiency (sunny buoy etc) = 1.638 kwh/sqmtr/day AC side.
Consider 300 days of working per annum: 491.04 kwh/year AC side.
25 years of life span: 491.04 X 25 = 12276 kwh
Retail price of Rs. 50000.00
Then 50000/12276= Rs. 4.07/kwh leveled cost.
No consideration has been given to depreciation benefits, subsidies
etc. Today the power supplied to us by utilities is subsidies one.
We have started manufacturing cubes and have installed the same at
various places. Our data shows that on an average we are able to
generate around 1.2-1.45kwh/day through battery chargers. Grid
connected at LT side is not allowed still in our Area.
As regards to making a PPA with you for Rs. 10.00/kwh, we would come
back to you asap with proposal. Why not buy and get a hands on
experience?
I would propose a minimum plant size of 250kw with free land made
available to us and PPA of Rs. 15.50 per kwh for span of 15 years with
down payment of 25% of the plant cost.
I assure you of our best service.
Regards
Deepak Kelkar.
Manu Sharma
Nov 23, 2009, 2:30:48 AM11/23/09
to green...@googlegroups.com
Dear Mr. Kelkar,
Welcome to Green-India and thank you for the valuable inputs!
Manu
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