Re: [Green-India] Rural Portable Generator

[chan...@sancharnet.in]

Something wrong somewhere. In fact I have seen many people making high claims with such systems, there are many systems of Sh. Pathak from Pune where they also make high claims on power output. Please note following standards, human power hand operated will be around 20 watts, leg operated will be around 70 watts, animal power, bull power 500 to 1000 watts, even horse power which we say 746 watts will fall in the same range. Two bulls should not be more than 1500 watts. In all cases there will be some losses because of transmission like pulleys, gear boxes etc. Any high claim deviating from these standards will result in perpetual machines which are violation of basic laws of energy.
Regards,

Prof. Ajay Chandak.

---- Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Mr. Kelkar,
>
> This is extremely interesting. So, if I'm to understand you correctly,
> you're saying that a pair of bullocks when made to run the generator+gearbox
> configuration you mentioned, delivers 6 KW of AC power (that would be 240
> volts as you mentioned and 25 amps at 50 Hz)?
>
> Please advise the price of this configuration of generator & gearbox even if
> high.
>
> Thanks,
> Manu
>
> On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 10:25 AM, deepak kelkar <squar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > We have tried using bull power to rotate the PMG which is normally used in
> > small wind generator. The results are quite satisfactory and that for a
> > particular rpm say 240 rpm gearbox which drives PMG at 240rpm the generation
> > is 1Vrpm and PMG delivers perfectly 240 volts at 50 Hz. This PMG delivers
> > 6kw of power. We use this PMG of Scirocco turbine. The same PMG if rotated
> > at 1800 rpm then the power is 18KW as per the data sheet of the generator.
> >
> > However the output varies if the input bull power speed increases or
> > decreases then we need to follow the same topology of wind turbine to
> > convert all the power in DC and charge batteries. further the charged
> > batteries with help of inverter can deliver the power. However economics of
> > batteries and inverter doesnot allow commercial application.
> >
> > Mr. Kedar Pathak with his father, I donot remember the name, of Pune has
> > successfully tried this with our generator and then the cost of PMG of this
> > typical nature is also high.
> >
> > Deepak Kelkar
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 10:00 AM, sunita kashyap <sun.c...@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> sir,
> >> not only this but multi utility genrator developed in kanpur is also
> >> very useful to genrate electricity for house just using four hour of
> >> bull power
> >> according to org. (previously mentioned) cost is just 35000 with other
> >> attachements
> >> and it can provide a sustainable living in the villages where
> >> electricity is still a dream.
> >> we are now gathering more information and will submit later .
> >> regards
> >>
> >> On 10/26/10, Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On the same lines, I saw a bull-powered pump at a farm on the outskirts
> >> of
> >> > Kanpur last week. Pumps water from 150 feet depth with full flow through
> >> a
> >> > standard 2.5" pipe.
> >> >
> >> > It's a dual use equipment that can also be used to cut animal fodder.
> >> >
> >> > Pictures attached.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Manu
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Nataraj Paila <swe...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hello Group,
> >> >>
> >> >> I recently came across an interesting concept regarding a rural
> >> portable
> >> >> generator which I want to share with you. Please view this URL for
> >> >> detailed
> >> >> information http://www.greenenergysolutions.co.in/
> >> >>
> >> >> Given the simplicity of this approach and the ubiquity of cows,
> >> buffaloes
> >> >> etc across the country, this concept seems very interesting.
> >> >>
> >> >> When done in a humane and feasible way, what do you folks think about
> >> this
> >> >> concept? Is this feasible, how helpful would this be in rural areas and
> >> in
> >> >> alleviating power shortage?
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >> Nataraj
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to Green-India
> >> >> to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.
> >> >>
> >> >> Green-India
> >> >> http://green-india.in
> >> >>
> >> >> Rules and Disclaimer
> >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
> >> >>
> >> >> To unsubscribe, send email to
> >> >> green-india...@googlegroups.com
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to Green-India
> >> > to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.
> >> >
> >> > Green-India
> >> > http://green-india.in
> >> >
> >> > Rules and Disclaimer
> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
> >> >
> >> > To unsubscribe, send email to
> >> > green-india...@googlegroups.com
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to Green-India
> >> to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.
> >>
> >> Green-India
> >> http://green-india.in
> >>
> >> Rules and Disclaimer
> >> http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send email to
> >> green-india...@googlegroups.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Deepak Kelkar
> > Director
> > Square Engineering Pvt Ltd.
> > Pune
> > Cell: 9422310250
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to Green-India
> > to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.
> >
> > Green-India
> > http://green-india.in
> >
> > Rules and Disclaimer
> > http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send email to
> > green-india...@googlegroups.com
> >
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to Green-India
> to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.
>
> Green-India
> http://green-india.in
>
> Rules and Disclaimer
> http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
>
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> green-india...@googlegroups.com

[Manu Sharma]

Dear Mr. Kelkar,

Kindly clarify / confirm that a pair of bullocks when made to run the generator+gearbox configuration you mentioned, delivered 6 KW of AC power (that would be 240 volts as you mentioned and 25 amps at 50 Hz).

Thanks,

Manu

[Nagraj Rao]

I was also wondering about the figure of 6kW which appears too high.I tend to agree with Prof Chandak.
Needs to be probed further.

Nagraj Rao

Nagraj Rao
http://electricalanecdotes.blogspot.com/

[krishna bairagi]

If this is possible then there will be a great change of farmer community lively hood. They will be able to irrigate their fields independently to the Govt. grid supply up to an 7.5hp  motor pump which is sufficient for average Indian farmer land. More over there will be encouragement to dairy development by a considerable increment in cattle care specially the cow family. It will be better then the old irrigation system of using bollocks in directly taking water from well in specially made leather bags pair known as "Charas" or "Mashak" and pouring water in a surface tank overflowing which irrigates fields just like an electric motor pump is used. Krishna      --- On Wed, 10/11/10, Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mohanram Subbarao]

Dear All,

 

The concept appears wonderful but in practice may not be practical and cost-effective for atleast two simple reasons:

 

(1) Assumption that cows and buffalos are available for almost 'free' is not true as tending them requires resources and their feeds etc. are not free.So these costs have to be considered.(2)Also in a rural scenario,these are utilised for various different other purposes and their continuous availability for power generation such as this would be doubtful.Moreover the agriculturist may and would think that of all the uses of the bovine population,power generation is the least beneficial for him.So there is a trade-off  and costs attached.

 

We should mull  over this and such other aspects before concluding on the viability and usefulness.

 

 Thanks All

 

MOHANRAM

[KEPLSolarLEDs]

I agree that Bullocks donot come free. Can some calculate the cost of the running such a generator with realistic resting time for the Bullocks and using different bullocks in shifts for faster recovery of investment and if the generated power is in demand for for all 24 hrs  etc.

Vijay Gupta
Kwality PolyWa Power LEDs of 110Lumens/watt upto 13Watt screw-down modules
www.kwalityindia.com

[Manu Sharma]

I'm surprised how out of touch we are in the cities with the realities of rural life. As majority of farmers in India are poor and have small land holdings -- most farmers still plough the land with bullocks. I don't have access to statistics but it's safe to say that farmers with tractors are in minority. 

Since ploughing land and transporting produce with bullocks are not full-time activities, most farmers will a pair of bullocks have excess capacity that goes unutilised. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to utilise that excess capacity for pumping requirements and perhaps also for electricity generation although the latter needs to be investigated. 

The list is still awaiting word of clarification from Mr. Kelkar regarding power generation claims.

Thanks,

Manu

[Manu Sharma]

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Mohanram Subbarao <mohanram...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

(1) Assumption that cows and buffalos are available for almost 'free' is not true as tending them requires resources and their feeds etc. are not free

I should also add that animal power applications discussed in this list are based on bullocks and not "cows and buffaloes." As explained in previous messages, farmers that already own bullocks can easily utilise the excess capacity for pumping applications. 

Bullock power can perhaps also be used for power applications but the details regarding the same need to be fully investigated.

Manu

[Mohanram Subbarao]

Dear All,

 

As statistics are not easy to collect, I agree,we have to depend upon personal knowledge and reasoning on an empirical basis.My long years of  experience in rural affairs and rural energy matters suggest the following:

 

1)Majority of farmers are marginal and do have only sufficient number of cattle which suffices for the daily farming works and other non-farming works.

 

2)Only non-milch cattle is used for such physical works

 

3)There are several studies to reveal that the animals on a majority basis are already over-worked & are kept in deplorable physical conditions.Hence they cannot be expected to be in a condition to be spared for this.

 

4)Any extra work in this form has indeed to be compensated with extra food and forage inputs.Like in bio- energy-- the net-energy balance in terms of input energy equivalent in terms of inputs such as water etc. to the energy output in the form of ethanol--we have to look into economics/viability of extra feeding etc. to the energy they can produce.

 

5)I have been  involved in similar type of studies not only with cattle but even with donkeys, mules & others in hill areas of Uttarakhand & Ladakh. The socio-economic issues working against this are found to be more than the benefits percieved by farmers(not by armchair  theorists like us) themselves.

 

However where excess physical-working animals & excess working hours from them especially draught-animals are available then this may be one of the possible methods of energy generation in addition to many others.

 

As regards 6 KW etc is exaggerated;actual figures would be not more than 1/5th of that figure. In fact cycling generators yield about 300 to 350 watts at the output terminal and animals can generate four times that, though not again on a continuous basis.Electrical Engineers know that revolutions of the generators coupled will matter in the power output and knowing that cattle can only 'turn' the generators at a regular slow speed,high power putputs are not expected.

 

It may be of interest that in Rajkot & Kutch Gujarat lot of such experiments/efforts have been done not for running irrigation pumps but with small volume sprinkles/drip irrigation devices.. Results have been varying but never far reaching.

 

Thanks All

 

MOHANRAM    

[chan...@sancharnet.in]

Great analysis and experience sharing. Small correction, cycling can generate @ 70 watts max. as net output and not 300 watts.
Regards,
Prof. Ajay Chandak.

> > full-time activities, most farmers will a pair of bullocks have *excess
> > capacity* that goes unutilised. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to

> >>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 9:46 PM, <chan...@sancharnet.in<http://mc/compose?to=chan...@sancharnet.in>

> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Something wrong somewhere. In fact I have seen many people making high
> >>> claims with such systems, there are many systems of Sh. Pathak from Pune
> >>> where they also make high claims on power output. Please note following
> >>> standards, human power hand operated will be around 20 watts, leg operated
> >>> will be around 70 watts, animal power, bull power 500 to 1000 watts, even
> >>> horse power which we say 746 watts will fall in the same range. Two bulls
> >>> should not be more than 1500 watts. In all cases there will be some losses
> >>> because of transmission like pulleys, gear boxes etc. Any high claim
> >>> deviating from these standards will result in perpetual machines which are
> >>> violation of basic laws of energy.
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Prof. Ajay Chandak.
> >>>
> >>>

> >>> ---- Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=orang...@gmail.com>>

> >>> wrote:
> >>> > Dear Mr. Kelkar,
> >>> >
> >>> > This is extremely interesting. So, if I'm to understand you correctly,
> >>> > you're saying that a pair of bullocks when made to run the
> >>> generator+gearbox
> >>> > configuration you mentioned, delivers 6 KW of AC power (that would be
> >>> 240
> >>> > volts as you mentioned and 25 amps at 50 Hz)?
> >>> >
> >>> > Please advise the price of this configuration of generator & gearbox
> >>> even if
> >>> > high.
> >>> >
> >>> > Thanks,
> >>> > Manu
> >>> >

> >>> > On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 10:25 AM, deepak kelkar <squar...@gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=squar...@gmail.com>>

> >>> sun.c...@gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=sun.c...@gmail.com>

> >>> >wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > >> sir,
> >>> > >> not only this but multi utility genrator developed in kanpur is
> >>> also
> >>> > >> very useful to genrate electricity for house just using four hour of
> >>> > >> bull power
> >>> > >> according to org. (previously mentioned) cost is just 35000 with
> >>> other
> >>> > >> attachements
> >>> > >> and it can provide a sustainable living in the villages where
> >>> > >> electricity is still a dream.
> >>> > >> we are now gathering more information and will submit later .
> >>> > >> regards
> >>> > >>

> >>> > >> On 10/26/10, Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=orang...@gmail.com>>

> >>> wrote:
> >>> > >> > On the same lines, I saw a bull-powered pump at a farm on the
> >>> outskirts
> >>> > >> of
> >>> > >> > Kanpur last week. Pumps water from 150 feet depth with full flow
> >>> through
> >>> > >> a
> >>> > >> > standard 2.5" pipe.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > It's a dual use equipment that can also be used to cut animal
> >>> fodder.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > Pictures attached.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > Thanks,
> >>> > >> > Manu
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> >

> >>> > >> > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Nataraj Paila <swe...@gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=swe...@gmail.com>

> >>> > >> >> green-india...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=green-india...@googlegroups.com>

> >>> > >> >>
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > --
> >>> > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> >>> Green-India
> >>> > >> > to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > Green-India
> >>> > >> > http://green-india.in
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > Rules and Disclaimer
> >>> > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >> > To unsubscribe, send email to

> >>> > >> > green-india...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=green-india...@googlegroups.com>

> >>> > >> >
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> --
> >>> > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to Green-India
> >>> > >> to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Green-India
> >>> > >> http://green-india.in
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Rules and Disclaimer
> >>> > >> http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> To unsubscribe, send email to

> >>> > >> green-india...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=green-india...@googlegroups.com>

> >>> > >>
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > --
> >>> > > Deepak Kelkar
> >>> > > Director
> >>> > > Square Engineering Pvt Ltd.
> >>> > > Pune
> >>> > > Cell: 9422310250
> >>> > >
> >>> > > --
> >>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to Green-India
> >>> > > to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Green-India
> >>> > > http://green-india.in
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Rules and Disclaimer
> >>> > > http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
> >>> > >
> >>> > > To unsubscribe, send email to

> >>> > > green-india...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=green-india...@googlegroups.com>

> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to Green-India
> >>> > to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.
> >>> >
> >>> > Green-India
> >>> > http://green-india.in
> >>> >
> >>> > Rules and Disclaimer
> >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
> >>> >
> >>> > To unsubscribe, send email to

> >>> > green-india...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=green-india...@googlegroups.com>

[Mohanram Subbarao]

Dear All,

 

There were some small endeavours under 'Light the world foundation' in Mumbai where school children cycled during the day (with more efficient geared bicycles) and average output was 180 watts;same was used by  destitute night studying children and with adults I assumed it may be 300 w;of course I am not that sure of the exact figures. Prof. Chandak's figures can be right because power output will be from a battery-inverter & there will be conversion losses too.

 

If only as an idea emanating from this-- health conscious men & women can think of cycling away their fats while generating power for themselves. Manual power has been tried as a source of generating power ,albeit, quantums may be small.

 

Thanks All

 

MOHANRAM 

[pooja joshi]

Dear all,

Considering one health conscious family whom i was working for, this bicycle powered pump was used in the garden of their house to irrigate the plants. The pump was supplied by Mr. Phatak ( Pune). Water has excellent force even with a basic cycling speed  . I can check the pump configurations and post them later. Its a kirloskar 0.75 hp pump.

 

However I am looking to see if in anyway the same pump can also be run on elecricity . I asked around the electrical market,  pump dealers, and some mechanical-electrical engineering friends, but dint get much clue. The choice of switiching to elecriticity when required should be there. Only then will it be used to the maximum. This family had to later buy a separate power pump in case they were not upto cycling that day. The rpm's have to match, was what many kept saying.

If anybody is aware of such a system please let me know. I apologize if i have digressed from the topic!

Regards,

Pooja.

[Manu Sharma]

Hi Pooja,

Thanks for sharing this and posting the pictures. Dual energy pump that runs both on electricity and human power is certainly possible but it will have to be a custom solution. I'm not aware of an off the shelf product. If you check with Sh. Pathak, he may have devised such a solution. 

Thanks,

Manu

[deepak kelkar]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: deepak kelkar <squar...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Green-India] Rural Portable Generator

To: Nagraj Rao <nagrajrao.in@gmail.com>

Dear All,

Generator 6kw is coupled to gear box in such a way that output of gear box will have 240 rpm and requisite torque as per the data sheet of the Alxion motors to rotate the permanent mangnet generator.  A small observation is lower the capacity of the generator higher are the rpm required, eg. 400 watt or 800 watt wind turbine generator rotates at @ 400-450 rpm.  typically according to my knowledge 1MW wind turbine generator blades rotate at @ 80rpm and the rotor diameter is such that blades provide the rpm and torque to rotate the inside gearbox which is coupled to the generator.

 

Bulls move in circle and drive a shaft which has requisite length (radius of the circle) typically to deliver Kg-mtr torque and the rotational speed is converted into the required rpm of the turbine.  Larger the radii of the circle less effort for the bulls to move, typically mechanical advantage is derived from the system.

 

Another concept is to have rotary converter instead of inverter,  if I can drive a DC motor using PV power to drive a PMG which delivers 3phase Ac power rather than using Inverter.  Need lot of help from the group for this as may be we can drive a PMG at lower speeds and torque through gearbox. 

 

Please find attached herwith datasheet of PMG and typical power curve of 6kw PMG which is direct driven.  

Deepak Kelkar

[chan...@sancharnet.in]

The pump Ms Pooja is discussing is a conventional centrifugal pump that is used by Mr. Pathak. All such pumps need lot of speed step up arrangement. Typical pump RPM will be 2800 and human pedling is around 60 to 100 RPM. Hence we need to step up speed through some mechanism and sacrifice some efficiency. Also 0.75 H.P. is too big a pump for pedling. Best choice can be treddler pumps. These are direct pumping with reciprocating pumps no mechanical amplification required. Total head up to 30 mtrs is achievable.
Regards,
Prof. Ajay Chandak.

---- Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Pooja,
>
> Thanks for sharing this and posting the pictures. Dual energy pump that runs
> both on electricity and human power is certainly possible but it will have
> to be a custom solution. I'm not aware of an off the shelf product. If you
> check with Sh. Pathak, he may have devised such a solution.
>
> Thanks,
> Manu
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, pooja joshi <shutter...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> > Considering one health conscious family whom i was working for, this
> > bicycle powered pump was used in the garden of their house to irrigate the
> > plants. The pump was supplied by Mr. Phatak ( Pune). Water has excellent
> > force even with a basic cycling speed . I can check the pump configurations
> > and post them later. Its a kirloskar 0.75 hp pump.
> >
> >

> > However I am looking to see if in anyway the *same* pump can also be run

> >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [Green-India] Rural Portable Generator

[pooja joshi]

Dear Prof Chandak,

Could you please elaborate on  this "These are direct pumping with reciprocating pumps no mechanical amplification required.". If the need arises can a treadle pump be run on electricity? I will check if these pumps are available around this city.

 

Mr Phatak doesnt have  the electrical option for the centriful pump which is provided. But we had discussed some ideas before where the belt could be shifted with a crank and a motor is attached to the pump. The problem arose when the motor's cost itself was about 2000rs. And I could have as well bought a new full fledged electrical pump in the same price. 

Maybe what is to be done is to take an electrical pump and adapt it such that it can also be run by human power.

Regards,

Pooja.

[pooja joshi]

Dear sir, 

I read up a bit on treadle pumps.I now  understand what you mean by reciprocating pumps without mechanical amplification. Thanks! 

-pooja.

[chan...@sancharnet.in]

The power curve still shows that at 240 RPM you may get 5 kW, which is not possible. Link below gives reliable data and one bull will be equivalent to 0.5 kW
http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/technology/animal_power.htm

Power generated does not depend only on RPM of generator, it also depends on load.
Regards,
Prof. Ajay Chandak.

---- deepak kelkar <squar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: deepak kelkar <squar...@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 9:31 AM

> Subject: Re: [Green-India] Rural Portable Generator

[Manu Sharma]

Dear Mr. Kelkar,

Many thanks for the detailed explanation. (I note that you sent it sometime back to Mr. Nagraj Rao therefore it didn't reach the list until you forwarded it now. Thanks.) 

I note your two points regarding decreasing RPM with increasing capacity and one about the long length of the shaft or rotor decreasing the animal power required to move the shaft. 

Since there are still questions about it (as raised by Prof Chandak), could you describe the test conducted by Mr. Kedar Pathak with your PMG that you mentioned previously? What did it constitute and what were the results?

Thanks,

Manu

[Manu Sharma]

Dear members,

Someone who was associated with this project but wishes to write anonymously sent me the following information. 

(Note that Green-India rules permit anonymous messages under exceptional circumstances when someone of authority does not wish his or her name to be associated with a certain message.)

______________

The whole idea was put up and shown to the then Minister of New and renewable energy of Maharashtra.  He saw the system and then asked me to grid connect the same at 11KV level.   His idea was that such systems would generate power and would be paid at special tariff rate and it would generate income.

I had to explain him that 6kw cannot be pumped into the grid. Further idea was to charge batteries then the project become economically inviable. 

As far the Prof. Chandak remarks as for the load application that was not tried out but the resistive load was applied to the output and measurements taken.  Any variation in the speed of moving animals output used to vary and Mr. Pathak thought of using flywheel for the same.  I was only assisting in the electrical side with PMG.

I think from my end FUNDS for such applications are from the pockets of people working on the same and then the project fizzles out because of lack of funds.  My idea to the group would be with help of people like Prof Chandak and others we can build some funds for re-engineering and development as the group is quite big now.  Any idea which is practicable can be scrutinized by panel of experts of the group and then implemented physically.  Just have a thought on such programme so that such a vide knowledge of the group can be channelized in some practicable development

________________

Thanks,

Manu

[tee jay]

HI,

The simpler solution to the power generation of these today is to adopt from the solar technology, where even a small value of 6 KW can be grid synchronised.

These grid synchronised inverters with DC inputs would take care of any variation of both voltage and power inputs.

If the basic design of the proto is available, I can look into the engineering aspect - This can be a project for a small group of students from IIT chennai, who have formed "sustainable student network.

teejay

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to Green-India
to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.
 
Green-India
http://green-india.in
 
Rules and Disclaimer
http://groups.google.com/group/green-india/web
 
To unsubscribe, send email to
green-india...@googlegroups.com

--



T. Jayaraman
SECO Group
14, Bethel Nagar,
Perungudi,
Chennai 600096

Ph : off +91 44 2496 1434/ 2496 2995
Fax - +91 44 2496 2996  Home +91 44 2448 7684

Website : www.seco-india.com

Be smart - Be green

[Manu Sharma]

Hi tee jay,

Thanks for your message. It's mentioned that in this case the grid connectivity was to be done at 11 KVA line and not at LT side, therefore the problem.

Thanks,

Manu

[tee jay]

Hi,

All rooftop solar is grid connected at 400/440v . Once grid synchronised,  If there is net feed to the grid, the distribution transformer would do the conversion to 11KV grid.

Thus, there would be no specific evacuation required, unless the net feed exceeds the distribution transformer capacity.

teejay

[deepak kelkar]

Hi

Normally LT is defined as low voltage as line to neutral as 230V.  3 phase is line to line at 440V as mentioned.  Most of the roof top grid connect inverters are single phase like SMA where in they specify that voltage is 220-230V 50 Hz.  It is well known that even 100HP supply from 11KVA line has step down transformer which provides 440V line to line and 230V between line and neutral.

My experience in grid connect is that grid connect inverters will only operate if grid is available.  This means that if the inverter receives the frequency signal it will super impose its output at the same cos theta angle.  Power evacuation is only done if grid is available.  In case of non availability of grid power at LT side then these grid connect inverters cannot feed into grid.  

The grid connect inverters in solar farms will be in range of 250kw modules and the signal for grid synchronisation is taken from 33KV or 22KV reliable grid.

I have not found any inverter of 3phase generation in low KW range.  If you have one that can grid feed 3phase at low capacity kindly forward the details as this will be of great help.

Deepak Kelkar

[Nagraj Rao]

I agree that grid connect inverters will only operate if grid is available.
Using a 11 kV transformer at such low power,though technically feasible,may not be a good idea from cost considerations.

Nagraj Rao

Nagraj Rao
http://electricalanecdotes.blogspot.com/

[chan...@sancharnet.in]

I do not know why member wants to be anonymous. Any way if any of such research projects are to be taken, we are open. We started with a research lab at Institute where I am working and have many helping hands in the form of students. If there are projects of this kind and sponsors (students will work for free as their final year project) we can take those assignments.
Regards,

Prof. Ajay Chandak.

---- Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear members,
>
> Someone who was associated with this project but wishes to write anonymously
> sent me the following information.
>

> *(Note that Green-India rules permit anonymous messages under exceptional

> circumstances when someone of authority does not wish his or her name to be

> associated with a certain message.)*

[mahesh shelar]

i agree with Prof Chandak.The enormous potential of students whether at Ug or PG level remains untapped. Students could be involved both for energy policy as well as technology development as well as demo projects.Prof Anil Agarwal of Honey bee network 's model of tapping the innovativeness of technicians and farmers is well known,A similiar endeveour could help the technical education.

regards

mahesh

 

Prof Mahesh Shelar
M.Tech Energy Systems Engg
Certified Energy Auditor
Department of Mechanical Engg
KKW Institute of Engg Education and Research
NASHIK
9822052351

---

From: "chan...@sancharnet.in" <chan...@sancharnet.in>
To: green...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, 18 November, 2010 1:36:25 AM

[chan...@sancharnet.in]

Mahesh you know the problem well in India, getting research funds and grants is a tough job for innovators and enthusiasts. All funds go to Institute of so called reputation like IITs and ends up in some futile work in M.Tech. and Ph.D. thesis. Time has come when private / corporate funding has to come in play for R & D works in educational institutes, where competent people are available.
In my opinion research, especially innovations has nothing to do with your qualifications and that is happening in big educational Institutions. They have very highly literate and qualified people working there, but innovativeness is lacking. Such qualified and literate people may prove good in development work, taking innovation to realities, but even that is not seen happening. Yesterday I heard our new Chief Minister, Prithviraj Chavhan on television expressing his concerns on educational and R & D standards that not a single university in India is amongst top 200 Universities in the world. Even corporate world shows no concerns. We have some richest people in the world, we recently witnessed TATAs giving huge grants to University overseas, but I have not seen corporates supporting Indian institutions for R & D work supporting in such big way. Hope situation will change, at least for R & D in climate change technologies.

Regards,
Prof. Ajay Chandak.

[Mohanram Subbarao]

Dear All,

 

Prof.Chandak has hit the nail on the head when he says highbrow education is not leading to innovativeness.It is very striking that many useful & highly functional but yet cost-effective innovations in the energy sector  are by reasonably literate but immensely creative people or academic fraternity of that kind.But funds & investments are funnelled to high profile R&D rather than to commonsense R&D.

 

List can be very long of such innovations which never saw light of the day due to sheer negligence on the part of the State & organised industry.Reasons are not far to seek;State is interested in big ticket investments where stakeholders are the bureaucracy & project contracts-clique which wants to be in business with their entrenched technologies. Essentially both of them for their own reasons do not  want 'small localised but cost-effective innoavations'  to replace 'high capital-centric equipment-oriented mega projects'.Precisely for this reason,for instance, they don't give fillip to Distributed Generation Systems based on local know-how & small technologies as this would replace grid-based projects which thrive on huge businesses of standard equipments like power transformers,conductor & others.Local resources of bio-mass,sun-power & many others can sustain the energy requirements of common man & his basic needs of cooking & low volume/low end electricity but for even this equipment -based bulk electricity is considered essential.That is also the reason why low-end but high ROI/utilitarian solar cookers cannot replace,even in an abundantly endowed sunshine country like ours,the ubiquitous LPG (ironically a commodity imported,subsidised & paid in FE)  & its trappings of gas stoves, burners etc.It is very interesting that hardly any R & D money is given or efforts encouraged to innovate & manufacture standard  products in, say, solar thermal,be it small box type/parabolic solar cookers which can save small amounts of energy per capita (but with our big numbers aggregate savings can be humongous)  or  theMW sized thermal solar technologies (which can in the near future match conventional energy investments per MW).The list is really  very long to be narrated here!

 

To make short the long,it is high time that Strong advocacy and activism on the part of social leaders who want a sustainable change in the energy sector is the need of the day. Only such strong approaches can bring change in the sector. Who is there to bell the cat first?

 

Thanks All

 

MOHANRAM