Re Re: Re [Green-India] Re: New micro wind turbine developed for household use

[chan...@sancharnet.in]

This violates very basic laws of thermodynamics.
We can not convert 100% energy from one form to other. More than 100% conversion will be perpetual machine, which is impossible.

In wind machine we convert kinetic energy of wind in electricity. If wind velocity is low, means kinetic energy content is extremely poor and if energy content in the wind is poor, how much you can conert in electricity? As mentioned in earlier mails, if wind speed drops from 12 m/sec to 2 m/sec, the energy content in the wind will drop down from 100% to 0.5%, which is neglegible. Hence no point in trying to tap this small energy.
Regards,

Prof. Ajay Chandak.

--------Original Message -------
Dear Prof. Chandak,
I totally agree with your approach. We should follow the basics. However, may be with some technological innovations such as Contra Rotating Turbines the generation may increase ?
Best Regards,
 
Abhaya Swarup
Nairobi

--- On Mon, 29/6/09, chan...@sancharnet.in <chan...@sancharnet.in> wrote:


From: chan...@sancharnet.in <chan...@sancharnet.in>
Subject: Re [Green-India] Re: New micro wind turbine developed for household use
To: green...@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, 29 June, 2009, 11:13 PM


Wind data shows that Alibaag is hopeless for wind generator installation.

Do not fall in trap for the wind generators that work on low speed like 2m/sec. Remember well that wind power is proportional to cube of velocity. Hence if a wind machine is designed to deliver 1000 watts at 12 m/sec, the same machine will generate only 5 watts if the wind speed falls down to 2 m/sec. If there is no power in the wind what can you get out of it?

Regards,

Prof. Ajay Chandak.


--------Original Message -------
Dear Mr.Jayesh,

Micor windmills working with starting wind speed of 2m/s are available now a
days.Following are geographic details of your location.

  Latitude (DMS) 18° 38' 28N Longitude (DMS) 72° 52' 45E Altitude (meters

Also enclosed please find wind speed data at your location.

I have also enclosed Daily Load Calculation sheet and to guide you, I have
filled with some date but actual data to be filled by you, so as correct
system can be recommended.

Once I receive response, will let you know the costing and feasibility.But
to tell you as a thumb rule, wind power will cost 50% less than solar power.

Also wind power system to be coupled with small solar PV system as wind
speed is not uniform throughout the year.

In case of any difficulty to fill data,etc please call me at 0-92464-75056
and I will be very glad to help you.

Looking forward for your +ve response.

Best Wishes,
N.M.K.D.Sarma Ambatipudi
(Also known as SOLAR SARMA)
Hyderabad(A.P)
Mobile*:+91 92464 75056*
Skype ID:*solarsarma
*
On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Jayesh Sampat <jms...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>  Dear Mr. Sharma,
>
> I have a small farm house at Alibaug near Mumbai. I have read your mails
> about the Motorwind turbines with great interest and need your guidance on
> the following questions.
>
> 1. I plan to install an inverter at my farm to meet my electrical
> requirements. Can I install the motorwing turbine to charge the batteries of
> the inverter? As the place is only frequnted during holidays & weekends the
> batteries can be charged during the other days also.
>
> 2. Or is it better to install the turbines directly?
>
> 3. Are these turbines available in India?
>
> 4. If not then what alternatives are recommended?
>
> 5. What is the budget for installing these turbines along with complete set
> up?
>
> I look forward to your kind assistance.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jayesh Sampat
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com>
> *To:* green...@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Monday, 9 April, 2007 1:37:43 PM
> *Subject:* [Green-India] Re: New micro wind turbine developed for
> household use
>
> Dear Mr. Gambarota,
>
> Thanks for your response. I understand completely about non-disclosure of
> turbine design features.
>
> The ability of Motorwind
> <http://www.motorwavegroup.com/new/motorwindpressmaterial>turbines to take
> wind from both sides and with such wide angle tolerances is yet another
> advantage over conventional turbines which must be perpendicular to the
> direction of the wind.
>
> RE: urban areas, I agree, it would depend upon location. Delhi's
> topography, for example, is quite different from Mumbai with far fewer high
> rises here.
>
> I'm glad to be of any help. I would be delighted to see Motorwind turbines
> become available in India.
>
> Thanks,
> Manu
>
>
>
>
> On 4/9/07, gamb...@motorwavegroup.com <gamb...@motorwavegroup.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> HI Manu
>>
>> i will try to make a short response .
>>
>> re:i cant talk too much about the 2 turbines design ,that's part of
>> the "secret"
>>
>> turbines can take wind from front and back (because they are
>> symetrical)
>> and they can take wind from about 60 degrees angle from left or right
>> or top and bottom .
>> imagine 2 cones connected by their tip .it is because of that that we
>> do not need to rotate .
>> the outer cylinder shape design redirect wind like a funnel .
>>
>> Motorwind is good in Urban area with a good average wind speed .
>> the problem in Urban area is that there is buildings blocking the wind
>> and locations have to be selected carrefully .
>> here in HK we have a systematic site visit to measure wind speed and
>> check
>> if wind can blow in both directions .
>> we have quite many cases where a building is obstruction free from
>> only one side which means that
>> there will be wind available only 6 months of the year .
>>
>> tks for your support Manu
>>
>> Lucien Gambarota
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET<http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_cricket_3/*http://cricket.yahoo.com>
> >
>
>


<div>Dear Mr.Jayesh,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Micor windmills working with starting wind speed of 2m/s are available now a days.Following are geographic details of your location.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<table style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" align="center" bgcolor="#e0e8df" border="1">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th>Latitude (DMS)
<td>18° 38' 28N
<th>Longitude (DMS)
<td>72° 52' 45E
<th>Altitude (meters</th></td></th></td></th></tr></tbody></table></div>
<div><br>Also enclosed please find wind speed data at your location.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have also enclosed Daily Load Calculation sheet and to guide you, I have filled with some date but actual data to be filled by you, so as correct system can be recommended.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Once I receive response, will let you know the costing and feasibility.But to tell you as a thumb rule, wind power will cost 50% less than solar power.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Also wind power system to be coupled with small solar PV system as wind speed is not uniform throughout the year.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In case of any difficulty to fill data,etc please call me at 0-92464-75056 and I will be very glad to help you.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Looking forward for your +ve response.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best Wishes,</div>
<div>N.M.K.D.Sarma Ambatipudi</div>
<div>(Also known as SOLAR SARMA)</div>
<div>Hyderabad(A.P)</div>
<div>Mobile<font color="#3333ff"><strong>:+91 92464 75056</strong></font></div>
<div>Skype ID:<font color="#000099"><strong>solarsarma<br></strong></font></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Jayesh Sampat <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jms...@yahoo.com">jms...@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
<div>Dear Mr. Sharma,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have a small farm house at Alibaug near Mumbai. I have read your mails about the Motorwind turbines with great interest and need your guidance on the following questions.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>1. I plan to install an inverter at my farm to meet my electrical requirements. Can I install the motorwing turbine to charge the batteries of the inverter? As the place is only frequnted during holidays & weekends the batteries can be charged during the other days also.</div>

<div> </div>
<div>2. Or is it better to install the turbines directly?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>3. Are these turbines available in India?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>4. If not then what alternatives are recommended?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>5. What is the budget for installing these turbines along with complete set up?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I look forward to your kind assistance.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jayesh Sampat<br></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1">
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> Manu Sharma <<a href="mailto:orang...@gmail.com" target="_blank">orang...@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:green...@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">green...@googlegroups.com</a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, 9 April, 2007 1:37:43 PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> [Green-India] Re: New micro wind turbine developed for household use<br></font><br>
Dear Mr. Gambarota,<br><br>Thanks for your response. I understand completely about non-disclosure of turbine design features. <br><br>The ability of <a href="http://www.motorwavegroup.com/new/motorwindpressmaterial" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Motorwind </a>turbines to take wind from both sides and with such wide angle tolerances is yet another advantage over conventional turbines which must be perpendicular to the direction of the wind. <br>
<br>RE: urban areas, I agree, it would depend upon location. Delhi's topography, for example, is quite different from Mumbai with far fewer high rises here. <br><br>I'm glad to be of any help. I would be delighted to see Motorwind turbines become available in India.<br>
<br>Thanks,<br>Manu<br><br><br><br><br>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/9/07, <b class="gmail_sendername"><a href="mailto:gamb...@motorwavegroup.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">gamb...@motorwavegroup.com</a></b> <<a href="mailto:gamb...@motorwavegroup.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">gamb...@motorwavegroup.com</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><br>HI Manu<br><br>i will try to make a short response .<br><br>re:i cant talk too much about the 2 turbines design ,that's part of<br>
the "secret"<br><br>turbines can take wind from front and back (because they are <br>symetrical)<br>and they can take wind from about 60 degrees angle from left or right<br>or top and bottom .<br>imagine 2 cones connected by their tip .it is because of that that we<br>
do not need to rotate .<br>the outer cylinder shape design redirect wind like a funnel . <br><br>Motorwind is good in Urban area with a good average wind speed .<br>the problem in Urban area is that there is buildings blocking the wind<br>
and locations have to be selected carrefully .<br>here in HK we have a systematic site visit to measure wind speed and <br>check<br>if wind can blow in both directions .<br>we have quite many cases where a building is obstruction free from<br>
only one side which means that<br>there will be wind available only 6 months of the year .<br><br>tks for your support Manu<br><br>Lucien Gambarota<br></blockquote></div><br><br>
<hr size="1">
ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on <a href="http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_cricket_3/*http://cricket.yahoo.com" target="_blank">YAHOO! CRICKET</a><br>
<p></p>
<p></p></p></p></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
<br>
<br>





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[T.jayaraman]

Dear Prof Chandak,

I can not but agree with you on the theory of wind energy and the thermodynamics.

Hypothetically, if  small wind speeds are consistently available and the economics of conversion is good, the availability of absolute energy cannot be questioned.

It would only mean more area for tapping the required energy (216:1 - compared to 12m/s to 2 m/s) making the initial investment higher but may be the PLF can be higher.

Let us look at the costs and  cross sectional area before we conclude.

teejay

On Tue, 2009-06-30 at 23:14 +0530, chan...@sancharnet.in wrote:

This violates very basic laws of thermodynamics.
We can not convert 100% energy from one form to other. More than 100% conversion will be perpetual machine, which is impossible. 

In wind machine we convert kinetic energy of wind in electricity. If wind velocity is low, means kinetic energy content is extremely poor and if  energy content in the wind is poor, how much you can conert in electricity? As mentioned in earlier mails, if wind speed drops from 12 m/sec to 2 m/sec, the energy content in the wind will drop down from 100% to 0.5%, which is neglegible. Hence no point in trying to tap this small energy.
Regards,

Prof. Ajay Chandak.

--------Original Message -------

DearProf. Chandak,

<div>Ihave also enclosed Daily Load Calculation sheet and to guide you, I have filled with some date but actual data to be filled by you, so as correct system can be recommended.</div>

<br>

--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~

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to discuss India's Energy Future and Sustainable Living.

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http://groups.google.com/group/green-india

Posting Guidelines
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[Raghavendra Rao]

Hello,

I have noticed that the wind speed in the corridor areas of apartment
complexes & office buildings are quite high. This must be due to the
tunnel effect Has this been exploited by people anywhere? One potential
issue that I can see will be that of building aesthetics.

Cheers,
Raghavendra Rao [Rags]


vendra
T.jayaraman wr ote:

> Dear Prof Chandak,
>
> I can not but agree with you on the theory of wind energy and the
> thermodynamics.
>
> Hypothetically, if small wind speeds are consistently available and
> the economics of conversion is good, the availability of absolute
> energy cannot be questioned.
>
> It would only mean more area for tapping the required energy (216:1 -
> compared to 12m/s to 2 m/s) making the initial investment higher but
> may be the PLF can be higher.
>
> Let us look at the costs and cross sectional area before we conclude.
>
> teejay
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2009-06-30 at 23:14 +0530, chan...@sancharnet.in wrote:
>> This violates very basic laws of thermodynamics.
>> We can not convert 100% energy from one form to other. More than 100% conversion will be perpetual machine, which is impossible.
>>
>> In wind machine we convert kinetic energy of wind in electricity. If wind velocity is low, means kinetic energy content is extremely poor and if energy content in the wind is poor, how much you can conert in electricity? As mentioned in earlier mails, if wind speed drops from 12 m/sec to 2 m/sec, the energy content in the wind will drop down from 100% to 0.5%, which is neglegible. Hence no point in trying to tap this small energy.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Prof. Ajay Chandak.
>>
>> --------Original Message -------
>> DearProf. Chandak,
>> I totally agree with your approach. We should follow the basics. However, may be with some technological innovations such as Contra Rotating Turbines the generation may increase ?
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Abhaya Swarup
>> Nairobi
>>

>> --- On Mon, 29/6/09, chan...@sancharnet.in <mailto:chan...@sancharnet.in> <chan...@sancharnet.in <mailto:chan...@sancharnet.in>> wrote:

>> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Jayesh Sampat <jms...@yahoo.com <mailto:jms...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Mr. Sharma,
>> >
>> > I have a small farm house at Alibaug near Mumbai. I have read your mails
>> > about the Motorwind turbines with great interest and need your guidance on
>> > the following questions.
>> >
>> > 1. I plan to install an inverter at my farm to meet my electrical
>> > requirements. Can I install the motorwing turbine to charge the batteries of
>> > the inverter? As the place is only frequnted during holidays & weekends the
>> > batteries can be charged during the other days also.
>> >
>> > 2. Or is it better to install the turbines directly?
>> >
>> > 3. Are these turbines available in India?
>> >
>> > 4. If not then what alternatives are recommended?
>> >
>> > 5. What is the budget for installing these turbines along with complete set
>> > up?
>> >
>> > I look forward to your kind assistance.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Jayesh Sampat
>> >
>> > ------------------------------

>> > *From:* Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com <mailto:orang...@gmail.com>>
>> > *To:* green...@googlegroups.com <mailto:green...@googlegroups.com>

>> > *Sent:* Monday, 9 April, 2007 1:37:43 PM
>> > *Subject:* [Green-India] Re: New micro wind turbine developed for
>> > household use
>> >
>> > Dear Mr. Gambarota,
>> >
>> > Thanks for your response. I understand completely about non-disclosure of
>> > turbine design features.
>> >
>> > The ability of Motorwind
>> > <http://www.motorwavegroup.com/new/motorwindpressmaterial>turbines to take
>> > wind from both sides and with such wide angle tolerances is yet another
>> > advantage over conventional turbines which must be perpendicular to the
>> > direction of the wind.
>> >
>> > RE: urban areas, I agree, it would depend upon location. Delhi's
>> > topography, for example, is quite different from Mumbai with far fewer high
>> > rises here.
>> >
>> > I'm glad to be of any help. I would be delighted to see Motorwind turbines
>> > become available in India.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Manu
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >

>> > On 4/9/07, gamb...@motorwavegroup.com <mailto:gamb...@motorwavegroup.com> <gamb...@motorwavegroup.com <mailto:gamb...@motorwavegroup.com>>

>> <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Jayesh Sampat <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jms...@yahoo.com">jms...@yahoo.com <mailto:jms...@yahoo.com></a>></span> wrote:<br>

>> <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> Manu Sharma <<a href="mailto:orang...@gmail.com" target="_blank">orang...@gmail.com <mailto:orang...@gmail.com></a>><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:green...@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">green...@googlegroups.com <mailto:green...@googlegroups.com></a><br>

>> <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, 9 April, 2007 1:37:43 PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> [Green-India] Re: New micro wind turbine developed for household use<br></font><br>
>> Dear Mr. Gambarota,<br><br>Thanks for your response. I understand completely about non-disclosure of turbine design features. <br><br>The ability of <a href="http://www.motorwavegroup.com/new/motorwindpressmaterial" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Motorwind </a>turbines to take wind from both sides and with such wide angle tolerances is yet another advantage over conventional turbines which must be perpendicular to the direction of the wind. <br>
>> <br>RE: urban areas, I agree, it would depend upon location. Delhi's topography, for example, is quite different from Mumbai with far fewer high rises here. <br><br>I'm glad to be of any help. I would be delighted to see Motorwind turbines become available in India.<br>
>> <br>Thanks,<br>Manu<br><br><br><br><br>

>> <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/9/07, <b class="gmail_sendername"><a href="mailto:gamb...@motorwavegroup.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">gamb...@motorwavegroup.com <mailto:gamb...@motorwavegroup.com></a></b> <<a href="mailto:gamb...@motorwavegroup.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">gamb...@motorwavegroup.com <mailto:gamb...@motorwavegroup.com></a>> wrote:</span>

[chan...@sancharnet.in]

Dear Mr. Jayesh,
Passion should not overtake science.
If I am not talking something convinient to somebody, does not make me less professional.

Just to let you know, we were the first in India to organise 11 day training program to manufacture small wind generators, in collaboration with Colorado University USA. I had single handedly conducted workshops for training people in manufacturing small wind generator and there are few manufacturers developed by us. Few workshops were organised for professional organisations like MITCON.
Only after getting deeper in to the subject I started noticing that people in general do not understand the basic science and opt for windmills without understanding limitations. Some of our trainee manufacturers also sold units in non wind zones and were in trouble. Then I decided to withdraw and stopped promoting small wind generators.

Coming back to point you wish to prove here are calculations.

1000 watt machine available in the market has design speed of 12m/sec and blade dia. 2.4 m.

Wind power = 0.5 * air density * area * velocity^3
= 0.5 * 1.2 * .78*2.4^2 * 12^3 = 4660 watts.
This means that wind blowing at 12m/sec through 2.4 m dia. has 4658 watts of power.
Small wind generators with present state of technology have efficiencies ranging from 10% to 23%. Taking efficiency at 22%, power generated by the wind generator comes out to be 1025 watts, out of which we can presume minimum 25 watts will be required to overcome bearing friction etc. and 1000 watts will be delivered.

If you reduce the velocity to 2 m/sec then with above calculations,
Wind power = 22 watts.
After 22% efficiency, available power = 4.7 say 5 watt. This is not enough to overcome even the bearing friction, forget about getting any useful power out of the machine.

If wind power content is 22 watts, you can imagine what we can get out of it. Some people suggested increasing the diameter. For this small machine even if you make diameter 3 m, wind power will become 33 watts and useful power will be 7 watts. Not worth anything.

Anybody coming up with their own calculations are welcome. We are scientific community and should not rely on what the companies or customers have to say. Any company which is ready to show me substantial power gains at low speed, and ready to provide power curve for the same, we can sue them in consumer courts for false, non scientific claims.

Regards

--------Original Message -------
Dear Mr.Jayesh,

If we can prove that at 2m/s, our wind mill can generate more than 5W,what
will Mr.Ajay Chandak do?

His language is not professional and he is not aware about the best quality
wind mills available as on date.

I can even show installations and you can feel free to discuss with existing
satisfied customers and then take your decision. I will never advice and
dupe as unless and until I strongly believe and get convinced myself, I will
never venture into recommending.

Decision is yours as you are the customer.Its like this in a nutshell:A
cheap quality CFL lamp may be less expensive and fail but a good quality oof
equal wattage may even come with 1year warranty and this is how CFL industry
also faced initial problems and in small wind mills also some failures are
there and the one what I am talking is designed by a professional who has
done PhD in wind energy technology.

Looking forward to hear from your end.

Best Regards,
N.M.K.D.Sarma Ambatipudi
Mobile:9246475056

> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Jayesh Sampat <jms...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Mr. Sharma,
> >
> > I have a small farm house at Alibaug near Mumbai. I have read your mails
> > about the Motorwind turbines with great interest and need your guidance
> on
> > the following questions.
> >
> > 1. I plan to install an inverter at my farm to meet my electrical
> > requirements. Can I install the motorwing turbine to charge the batteries
> of
> > the inverter? As the place is only frequnted during holidays & weekends
> the
> > batteries can be charged during the other days also.
> >
> > 2. Or is it better to install the turbines directly?
> >
> > 3. Are these turbines available in India?
> >
> > 4. If not then what alternatives are recommended?
> >
> > 5. What is the budget for installing these turbines along with complete
> set
> > up?
> >
> > I look forward to your kind assistance.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jayesh Sampat
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Manu Sharma <orang...@gmail.com>

> > *To:* green...@googlegroups.com

> > *Sent:* Monday, 9 April, 2007 1:37:43 PM
> > *Subject:* [Green-India] Re: New micro wind turbine developed for
> > household use
> >
> > Dear Mr. Gambarota,
> >
> > Thanks for your response. I understand completely about non-disclosure of
> > turbine design features.
> >
> > The ability of Motorwind
> > <http://www.motorwavegroup.com/new/motorwindpressmaterial>turbines to
> take
> > wind from both sides and with such wide angle tolerances is yet another
> > advantage over conventional turbines which must be perpendicular to the
> > direction of the wind.
> >
> > RE: urban areas, I agree, it would depend upon location. Delhi's
> > topography, for example, is quite different from Mumbai with far fewer
> high
> > rises here.
> >
> > I'm glad to be of any help. I would be delighted to see Motorwind
> turbines
> > become available in India.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Manu
> >
> >
> >
> >

> > On 4/9/07, gamb...@motorwavegroup.com <gamb...@motorwavegroup.com>

> <div>I have also enclosed Daily Load Calculation sheet and to guide you, I

> have filled with some date but actual data to be filled by you, so as

> correct system can be recommended.</div>
> <div> </div>
> <div>Once I receive response, will let you know the costing and
> feasibility.But to tell you as a thumb rule, wind power will cost 50% less
> than solar power.</div>
> <div> </div>
> <div>Also wind power system to be coupled with small solar PV system as
> wind speed is not uniform throughout the year.</div>
> <div> </div>
> <div>In case of any difficulty to fill data,etc please call me at
> 0-92464-75056 and I will be very glad to help you.</div>
> <div> </div>
> <div>Looking forward for your +ve response.</div>
> <div> </div>
> <div>Best Wishes,</div>
> <div>N.M.K.D.Sarma Ambatipudi</div>
> <div>(Also known as SOLAR SARMA)</div>
> <div>Hyderabad(A.P)</div>
> <div>Mobile<font color="#3333ff"><strong>:+91 92464
> 75056</strong></font></div>
> <div>Skype ID:<font
> color="#000099"><strong>solarsarma<br></strong></font></div>
> <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Jayesh Sampat

> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jms...@yahoo.com">jms...@yahoo.com</a>></span>

> href="mailto:orang...@gmail.com" target="_blank">orang...@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span

> style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:
> green...@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">green...@googlegroups.com

> </a><br>
> <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, 9 April, 2007
> 1:37:43 PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b>
> [Green-India] Re: New micro wind turbine developed for household
> use<br></font><br>
> Dear Mr. Gambarota,<br><br>Thanks for your response. I understand
> completely about non-disclosure of turbine design features. <br><br>The
> ability of <a href="
> http://www.motorwavegroup.com/new/motorwindpressmaterial" target="_blank"
> rel="nofollow">Motorwind </a>turbines to take wind from both sides and with
> such wide angle tolerances is yet another advantage over conventional
> turbines which must be perpendicular to the direction of the wind. <br>
> <br>RE: urban areas, I agree, it would depend upon location. Delhi's
> topography, for example, is quite different from Mumbai with far fewer high
> rises here. <br><br>I'm glad to be of any help. I would be delighted to see
> Motorwind turbines become available in India.<br>
> <br>Thanks,<br>Manu<br><br><br><br><br>
> <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/9/07, <b class="gmail_sendername"><a
> href="mailto:gamb...@motorwavegroup.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">

> gamb...@motorwavegroup.com</a></b> <<a href="mailto:

> gamb...@motorwavegroup.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">

> gamb...@motorwavegroup.com</a>> wrote:</span>

<br>

[Jayesh Sampat]

Dear Prof, Chandak,

 

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. I completely agree with you. Also, I do not wish to prove anything as I have little knowledge of the subject. Probably you may be referring to some comments made by others on the subject.

 

Regards,

Jayesh Sampat

---

From: "chan...@sancharnet.in" <chan...@sancharnet.in>
To: green...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 2 July, 2009 3:04:21 PM
Subject: Re Re: Re [Green-India] Re: New micro wind turbine developed for household use

Dear Mr. Jayesh,
Passion should not overtake science.
If I am not talking something convinient to somebody, does not make me less professional.

Just to let you know, we were the first in India to organise 11 day training program to manufacture small wind generators, in collaboration with Colorado University USA. I had single handedly conducted workshops for training people in manufacturing small wind generator and there are few manufacturers developed by us. Few workshops were organised for professional organisations like MITCON.
Only after getting deeper in to the subject I started noticing that people in general do not understand the basic science and opt for windmills without understanding limitations. Some of our trainee manufacturers also sold units in non wind zones and were in trouble. Then I decided to withdraw and stopped promoting small wind generators.

Coming back to point you wish to prove here are calculations.

1000 watt machine available in the market has design speed of 12m/sec and blade dia. 2.4 m.

Wind power = 0.5 * air density * area * velocity^3
      = 0.5 * 1.2 * .78*2.4^2 * 12^3 = 4660 watts.
This means that wind blowing at 12m/sec through 2.4 m dia. has 4658 watts of power.

Small wind generators with present state of technology have efficiencies ranging from 10% to 23%. Taking efficiency at 22%, power generated by the wind generator comes out to be 1025 watts, out of which we can presume minimum 25 watts will be required to overcome bearing friction etc.. and 1000 watts will be delivered.

> > I have a small farm house at Alibaug near Mumbai.. I have read your mails

> http://in.rd.yahoo..com/tagline_cricket_3/*http://cricket.yahoo.com>

> <div>N.M.K..D.Sarma Ambatipudi</div>

> <div>5.. What is the budget for installing these turbines along with

---

Looking for local information? Find it on Yahoo! Local

[vijay yvcs]

 I have been intently following the heat generated over the micro wind mills.
I am also a prospective user of the same. Yes, Prof Ajay sounds, quite logical. However, does it mean that people who are using micro wind mills in areas which are about 4 m/sec and who are actually benefiting from it be proven wrong?
Mr Sarma is here with me at Puttaparthy at present and I am seriously planning to escort along with him to Davengere, sirsi  and other places in Karnataka, where he claims that they are really working well.
It is not to prove anyone wrong, but it is always better to have a first hand data and feeback of the users. Prof Ajay I shall get back to you with the relevant feedback
Regards and thanks for the theory inputs . It was useful

Vijay

--
Vijay Y.V.C.S
Executive Manager - Finance
Sri Sathya Sai Bhaktha Sahayak Sangh
Prasanthi Nilayam
Puttaparthy
Andhra Pradesh -515134

[Manu Sharma]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:53 PM, vijay yvcs <vijay....@gmail.com> wrote:

 

does it mean that people who are using micro wind mills in areas which are about 4 m/sec and who are actually benefiting from it be proven wrong? 

This is a very good point. I'll come to that...but first things first. The term windmill should be used when wind energy produces mechanical output such as crushing of grains or drawing of water from a well.  The term wind turbine is to be used when wind energy generates electricity. 

 

Second, I don't think anyone here has claimed or is claiming that any wind turbine can generate significant energy at 2m/s. This is the starting or cut-in wind speed for small wind turbines, significantly lower than 4-5m/s cut-in wind speed of large turbines. 

Since weak winds are much more frequent at a site than stronger winds, you have an incentive if you can make use of it, even though the energy content is low. 

For example, over a 24hr period, a 3.5 m/s wind running off and on for 5 hours in total will generate more energy than a 10 min spurt of 7m/s wind.  

That said, there's absolutely no denying that high average wind speed is fundamentally essential to any wind energy installation. 

I do not recommend anyone to install a small wind turbine at a site unless they get at least 4 to 5 m/s wind. As Prof Chandak explained, it's simple physics. You require wind containing energy in the first place be generate something out of it.  

The reason many people are disappointed with small wind turbines is because they do not understand the fundamentals of a good site selection -- either these turbines are installed where there's too little wind or there are obstacles or there's turbulence or its not errected at the proper height and so on.  

Unfortunately, unscrupulous vendors take advantage of this lack of knowledge of consumers. I once confronted a vendor, an international one at that, who had fictitiously generated monthly energy output figures in the spec sheet a small wind turbine that my client was almost ready to purchase before I warned him not to. 

 

All this of course doesn't mean that small wind turbines are hopeless. There are small turbines that are much more efficient than the 22% figure previously mentioned here -- there's quite a difference between making wind turbines in a do-it-yourself fashion and turbines built by professionals using state of art materials. Finally, are sites that get good wind speeds without obstacles.  

A Unitron Energy 3.3 kW turbine with 15 feet rotor diameter, for example, would generate, according to the company: 

AVERAGE WIND SPEED
MPH	M/S	KMPH	MONTHLY GENERATION
9	4.0	14.5	269 kWh
10	4.5	16	362 kWh
11	4.9	17.7	476 kWh
12	5.4	19.3	568 kWh

So, if you live on top of a hill that averages 4.9 m/s wind speed for, say 5 months in a year, you'd generate 2380 kWh in those five months. That's quite a bit. 

That said, it should be noted that wind is seasonal. You do not have high wind speeds all through the year. So that brings up the most important point: know your speed. 

This can be done by installing a wind speed data logger for at least one year before you go for a purchase. 

Meteorological data, like the dataset posted here earlier, cannot be relied upon as it logs only two data points in a day. You need 24/7 data monitoring to have something conclusive. Wind speed data loggers record this data which can be downloaded to a computer or transmitted remotely.  

 

Mr Sarma is here with me at Puttaparthy at present and I am seriously planning to escort along with him to Davengere, sirsi  and other places in Karnataka, where he claims that they are really working well.

I encourage you to take the trip. This should be interesting.

Thanks,

Manu

[SOLAR SARMA]

Dear Respected Members,

No theories! If anybody is interested be practical and we can show working systems at wind speeds ranging from 2-8m/sec.Mr.Raghavendra Rao from Bangalore is interested to see these.Others are also welcome.If you all get good feedback on these systems, you can bear the travel bill and just spread good message to those who are interested in going for green energy.If you don't get convinced, I will take retirement from wind energy field including a open apology to all critics.

Looking forward for +ve response.

Best Regards,

N.M.K.D.Sarma Ambatipudi

Mobile:+91 92464 75056

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:04 PM, <chan...@sancharnet.in> wrote:

[vijay yvcs]

Thank you Manu
for the clarifying the differences in wind mill and wind turbine. Keeping in mine what you have said, it is very essential to understand your wind speed and site location as to where it has to be installed.

I have not yet started to build my home and it will take surely another 8 to 9 months to complete the project. I think it is right time to understand the wind speed by installing the wind speed data logger. Could you guide how i should be going about this. Frankly, there is no weather station over here that can give me accurate data. The data from the airport here is giving about  5- 6m/sec. However geographically, the air port is situated 5 kms away from my site in the south west direction. If i am planning to go for a wind turbine for my home, please guide me as to how to arrange for this wind speed data logger.

thank you

regards

vijay

[Manu Sharma]

Vijay, 

I don't have a personal recommendation. There are all sorts of wind data loggers out there from overly simple do-it-yourself kinds to sophisticated ones that cost as much as the turbine itself. If you're looking for something inexpensive you might one to consider the products on this page and check with the manufacturer if they will ship to India.

Thanks,

Manu

[Manu Sharma]

Note that the datalogger I linked below is required to be connected to a computer running as frequently as you wish to run data logging (ideally 24/7). Other more expensive instruments have on-board logging feature.

I should also add that there's more to it than recording wind data. You need expertese to analyse the data as well so I'd suggest doing it through a professional who understands all this.

Thanks,

Manu

[Sameer Panchangam]

yes have observed this in many apartments.

Can this be channelized in some way?

--
Thanks!
Sameer Panchangam
Sent from Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, India