GL: BLACK WATER (SEWAGE) OVERBOARD DISCHARGE
John & Judy Gill
The only difference is the method(s) used to ensure compliance with local laws. In most places if your "Y" valve is tied off securely with a wire tie or some other locking mechanism you will past muster. In some jurisdictions, the authorities will flush your head by flushing down a packet of food coloring -- if the water outside changes to their color, you get a stiff fine. On Lake Champlain (NY or VT waters) their laws require a foot of the hose between your holding tank and overboard discharge port to BE REMOVED!!! Their fines and remedies are severe to say the least.
My parents had a cottage near Sans Souci - 22 miles down the South Channel from Parry Sound for many years. We like many of the Summer homes in the area and on Lake Champlain pumped their drinking water from directly in front of their cabins up to their sinks with little more than a sediment filter; no expensive water treatment system at all. Ask yourselves if you would like someone to anchor in front of your Summer home and dump their holding tank next to your water intake???
John and Judy Gill
Delaware River Sail & Power Squadron, D/5
Two J’s V, a 36 ft. Carver Mariner
Slip E-26, Sassafras Harbor Marina, Georgetown, MD
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josep...@gmail.com
Never heard of 1' of hose required to be removed but disconnected/separated for certain. I'd like to read the Canadian regulation for exact verbiage referencing the 1' foot removal. I have a disconnect union to physically separate plumbing from overboard pump and plugs for the resulting open hoses. I am confident of compliance.
Joe Pica
M/V Carolyn Ann GH N-37
http://carolynann-n37.blogspot.com/
MTOA#3813, AGLCA #5485
Tallen
"Marine Sanitation Devices:
In no discharge zones a holding tank is required. No discharge capability
allowed, openings sealed, overboard lines and Y valves removed.
Residential use of overnight sleeping vessels is prohibited on waters
lacking sanitary waste pumpout facilities. "
And the NYS regulation;
"On Canandaigua, Skaneateles, Greenwood (Orange County) Lakes, and Lake
George, any vessel equipped with a toilet, sink, tub, etc., which results in
the drainage of wastewater must have all such material drain into a holding
tank so that it may be pumped ashore at a marine pumpout facility. Overboard
lines from these systems must either be sealed or removed. When operating
on Lake Champlain, boaters must have their MSD rendered inoperable and all
over board lines disconnected and plugged."
Capt'n Terry
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Tallen
Ontario Waters
For pleasure craft in the waters of Ontario, the overboard discharge is not
permitted as per the Environmental Protection Act (Ontario), Regulation 343,
“Discharge of Sewage from Pleasure Boats.” Any overboard discharge, as shown
in options 2, 3 and 4 (installations with varying placement of the "Y"
valve) will have to be disconnected and blanked before entering the waters
of Ontario.
Duane
Duane and Diane Ising
m/v Diva Di
Punta Gorda, FL
Jim Healy
Any chance you could provide actual citations to the Vermont and New York statutes? (Like for example, the Florida anchoring law is "FS 327.60.") We keep talking about them, but I'd like to look up the actual text, once and for all.
This thread (again) started out as a discussion of Lake Champlain laws, right? Has it morphed into the Finger Lakes and other self contained Lakes? Seems to me, Lake champlain is a somewhat different context from a cruising perspective. There's a high percentage of through-traffic on Lake Champlain, but the Finger Lakes are destinations with no possibility of through traffic, and very little access for cruising boats except Cayuga and Seneca.
Thanks
Jim
Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary, currently northbound at Carolina Beach, NC
http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com <http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com/>
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
Ted Stehle
I have read them in the past and will dig into it again. In the interim,
here is a start.
Ted
http://www.queechylake.org/Documents/NYstatelaws.pdf
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Healy
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2015 7:30 AM
To: tall...@rochester.rr.com
Cc: great...@lists.trawlering.com
Subject: Re: GL: BLACK WATER (SEWAGE) OVERBOARD DISCHARGE
Ted Stehle
Here is another. I am looking for more "official" documents, such as the
state statutes.
Ted
http://www.boatsafe.com/vermont/
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Healy
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2015 7:30 AM
To: tall...@rochester.rr.com
Cc: great...@lists.trawlering.com
Subject: Re: GL: BLACK WATER (SEWAGE) OVERBOARD DISCHARGE
Tallen
I don’t think this is morphing into the Finger Lakes etc. The summary of NYS regulations did contain reference to the inland/self contained lakes as part of the paragraph containing Lake Champlain. I suppose that content could have been redacted from the paragraph, but for what purpose? There are cruisers that just might enjoy routing via the Erie Canal to Oswego or even on to Seneca and Cayua Lakes. Beautiful cruising areas on their own.
I suspect that for most cruisers, State sponsored summaries of sanitation laws that state such content as; “When operating on Lake Champlain, boaters must have their MSD rendered inoperable and all over board lines disconnected and plugged." would be sufficient to understand the regulations, and allow operators to effect compliance. I mean, what is it that about “all over board lines disconnected and plugged” is ambiguous?
Digressing somewhat. Little did we understand when the Clean Water Act of 1972 was enacted, what power we (Congress) gave to the EPA. Just be glad you are not a commercial passenger vessel ( think your local mom/pop inspected tour boat and up) that now is prevented from discharging graywater in the Great Lakes. The CG will begin enforcing regulation on inspected vessels this year. I suspect it will only be a matter of time before that too becomes restricted for recreational vessels as the agency promulgates and enforces “regulations” it believes protect human health and the environment.
Safe and compliant cruising
Capt’n Terry
From: Jim Healy
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2015 7:30 AM
To: tall...@rochester.rr.com
Cc: great...@lists.trawlering.com
Subject: Re: GL: BLACK WATER (SEWAGE) OVERBOARD DISCHARGE
Captain Terry,
Any chance you could provide actual citations to the Vermont and New York statutes? (Like for example, the Florida anchoring law is "FS 327.60.") We keep talking about them, but I'd like to look up the actual text, once and for all.
This thread (again) started out as a discussion of Lake Champlain laws, right? Has it morphed into the Finger Lakes and other self contained Lakes? Seems to me, Lake champlain is a somewhat different context from a cruising perspective. There's a high percentage of through-traffic on Lake Champlain, but the Finger Lakes are destinations with no possibility of through traffic, and very little access for cruising boats except Cayuga and Seneca.
Thanks
Jim
Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary, currently northbound at Carolina Beach, NC
http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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Jim Healy
Well, "disconnected and plugged" does not mean "removed from the boat" or "removed from the system," or "have a gap of at least one foot," or any of the other miscellaneous comments that have been posted in this thread. And if we're talking about fines here, that detail might matter to some people. So yes, ambiguous. And, also because there are other legal ways to comply with these plethora of regulations in various waters, enforced by various local, state and federal law enforcement agencies.
1. Padlock access to heads so as to preclude their use
2. Mechanically lock overboard discharge ports
3. Disable overboard discharge ports in their closed position SO THAT TOOLS ARE NEEDED TO OPERATE THEM
4. Disconnect hoses
5. Remove hoses
5. Others
Since we don't know who wrote the pamphlet you mention, or what the agenda of the writing agency might have been, yes, it would be useful to be able to read the actual words of the statute.
Jim
> On May 3, 2015, at 12:23, Tallen <tall...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I mean, what is it that about “all over board lines disconnected and plugged” is ambiguous?
Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary, currently at Charlotte Harbor, Punta Gorda, FL
http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com <http://gilwellbear.wordpress.com/>
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
_______________________________________________
Al Thomason
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/NAV/3/33-d
"... Any holding tank designed so as to provide for an optional means of discharge to the waters on which the craft is operating shall have the discharge openings sealed shut and any discharge lines, pipes or hoses shall be removed or disconnected and stored while operating on the waters of said lake, its tributaries or outlets. ...."
A bit contrary to what the US Law is (AFAIK) on this topic for navigable waters. Just poking around some it seems there might be a bit of overreach. For example section 33-e contains:
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/NAV/3/33-e
" 1. Any waters of the state of which the commissioner has received an affirmative determination regarding the adequate availability of marine sanitation device pump-out or dump station facilities pursuant to the Federal Clean Water Act, are hereby designated as vessel waste no-discharge zones."
To me this seems to be saying NYC decides NDZ, independent of the EPA..
But will leave that up to those more informed on the workings of the law them me. Will perhaps add that we have seen before how states can attempt to overreach, and be effective, until someone challenges them in court. (remember the Florida anchoring wars a few years ago)
-al-
Viking Star
45' Monk Sr. / McQueen
mvVikingStar.blogspot.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Great-Loop [mailto:great-loo...@lists.trawlering.com] On Behalf Of Jim Healy
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 11:15 AM
To: Tallen
Cc: great...@lists.trawlering.com
Subject: Re: GL: BLACK WATER (SEWAGE) OVERBOARD DISCHARGE
John & Judy Gill
Yes the NY and VT laws (this is not New York City versus the EPA) are and can be more restrictive than Federal Laws. It is what is called "States Rights" and can indeed "overreach" as necessary to protect the health and welfare of waterside residents.
Those of us who own or have owned waterfront properties favor such protections. God forbid that Washington D.C. officials can dictate / decree their ideas /wishes that everyone must follow.
Also, if you have been following the news, the Florida Anchoring wars are in full battle at present! My guess is that the property owners aka tax payers will ultimately win and force boaters into marinas instead of anchoring out and dumping their holding tanks if front of their homes.
John
===================================================
Jim Healy
If that's what you think the Florida anchoring issue is about, I would observe that you and I have perspectives that are worlds apart.
Never in all of those discussions - and I have followed and participated in all of them over the last several years - has anyone EVER suggested it's OK to pump waste tanks overboard in those coastal littoral waters. NEVER. NOT ONCE.
I can't imagine why you'd choose to characterize it in that way.
Jim
> On May 5, 2015, at 15:27, John & Judy Gill <jjg...@twojscom.com> wrote:
>
> instead of anchoring out and dumping their holding tanks if front of their homes.
Jim Healy
The NY text says "... any discharge lines, pipes or hoses shall be REMOVED OR DISCONNECTED and stored..." As I read this, REMOVED is only an option. DISCONNECTED (and capped) is an option.
In my case, "disconnected" is much less disruptive.
Now, what says Vermont?
Jim
Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary, currently northbound at Oriental, NC
Tallen
You seem to be quite focused on having list members research this subject for you to the point of providing detailed verb/verse/section/paragraph of each State’s laws. The internet is great place to research this. Google is your friend.
Capt’n Terry
Now, what says Vermont?
Jim
-al-
Terry,
Jim
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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