Fwd: [Asian_Ultimate] ultimate in china
The D.O.C.
of singapore
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: John Lin <gh...@mac.com>
Date: Nov 5, 2007 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Asian_Ultimate] ultimate in china
To: Asian_U...@yahoogroups.com
Singapore Ulty in the early days was a hugely fun, casual group of
50-100. but in effect it was a huge clique.... and predominantly
expat. those locals that were playing were not-so-typical
singaporeans (and i mean that in a good way).
when UPAS went to a club system a few years back, one of the
casualties was that teams/clubs grew sort of separated and that
small-society feel was significantly diminished. you can look at
Freakshow as a example. we went from 'all-star' team of the general
community and always cheered-for locally to really sort of
begrudgingly tolerated and seen as elitist.
for a couple years the new club system took its toll. personally i
felt that whereas pre-club Singapore Ultimate was sort of a giant
melting pot, post-club UPAS was segregated by design. i dont regret
it, but you could see the perception, and thus the reality, of walls
within the community. there were competitive clubs, "local" clubs,
student clubs, social-fun clubs, etc. too many choices are a messy
situation.
on the plus side, what eventually happened was that now there were
many more nodes of Ulty around the island, and thus much more
accessibility. i mean accessibility both culturally and
geographically. pickup was almost everyday of the week... somewhere.
UPAS varied leagues to target newbies one season, the more competitive
the next. some leagues were co-ed, others single-sex. again, if i
use Fs as an example, we went from almost entirely 'expat' and
western-exposed to Ulty in the pre-club days to mostly
Singaporean-learned (in Ulty) and mostly "local" demographically.
that is a dramatic change in 4 years. i feel the initial animosity
resultant from the breakup of Singapore Ultimate into clubs has
subsided especially in the last year.
Rahim Resad also started seriously infiltrating into the Singapore
school system during the last 2-3 years, and ive heard there are
hundreds of sec II school kids playing Ulty. schools like it as a
sport as it requires minimal equipment, its co-ed, non-contact, etc.
my timeline is a bit muddled, and these processes all sort of melded
into one another. the club transition was sort of uncomfortable and
stunted. and there was more than one occasion where things were
really unhealthy. (eg. more than once the Singapore Open was unlikely
to happen or Ultimate becoming more un-spirited)
but a lot of good stuff happened as well- and pertaining to docs/alecs
queries, i think movement to a club system was the single most
compelling factor in 'local' participation in Singapore. as well
meaning as a foreigner might want to be, nothing beats local
initiative and leadership. now UPAS biggest problem is that its so
fractious that its hard to coordinate some things like league,
sponsorship, etc... but then again, ill bet there are 500-800 ulty
players in Singapore.
i dont think this has to be the only path, but its how i see what
happened here.
on a side note, M Hu's initiative for an Asian Championships can
really be a solid vehicle for 'local' growth. yeah, i understand the
economic hurdles, but smart local sponsorship might mitigate some of
that burden. where there is a will, there is a way. plan now for
next year. we should support the Taiwan C'ships tourney more, if not
with our 'expat' participation (yes i understand the restrictions on
participation) then at least with lending our organization and
encouragement for Taiwan Ulty and for our local players to attend.
jhl
On Nov 4, 2007, at 10:16 PM, Alec Hutson wrote:
Beijing has done a great job cultivating the scene up there.
Congratulations to Doc and the rest of the crew for furthering the
sport. I guess I'll just clarify what I wrote in reponse to Lance's
question as to whether we will see some all-local teams come out of
China soon and attend international tournaments. I wrote that it was
a combination of economics and the social attitude towards sports that
made it unlikely, and I'll stick to that. Yes, China's economy is
growing fast but the per-capita income in even the richest cities like
Shanghai and Beijing hovers around 8,000$ (and most recent college
grads - the ones likely to be interested in Ultimate - earn far, far
less). The costs for a single international tourney can easily exceed
400$. A few people are getting really rich really fast, but the vast
majority are seeing their incomes rising stea! dily but slowly.
Sports, especially organized sports, does not seem to get very
much support here. The biggest issue in Shanghai is that there are
almost no sites - the only nice grass fields I've seen in Shanghai
have been at the International Schools, and their are only a few turf
fields scattered about in various parts of the city. We don't have
teachers that can get fields for free, so we have to pay, and the hard
economic facts are that the 200$ US annual membership for our Saturday
fields and the 50$ we charge for league is outside the budget of most
young Chinese. We've had quite a bit of interest from various
students trying to set up frisbee clubs at their schools, but the
biggest stumbling block is that either their university has no fields,
or they are not allowed to use them. Where can they play? That's
what I meant by social attitudes. There is no support structure for
growing recr! eational athletics because the government and the
society seems too focused on building apartment blocks and forging
ahead economically. I imagine this is somewhat similar to what
happened in HK, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, etc, where once the
countries had reached a certain level of affluence the government and
the society became more interested in raising the quality of life, and
one aspect of that is providing outlets for recreational athletcs. As
China continues its upward trajectory I assume similar views will take
root here.
Which brings me back to Doc's question: what was the tipping
point that ignited the growth of Ultimate in Sinagpore, Manila and
elsewhere? How did those communities secure fields (which I see as
the biggest problem in Shanghai for growing the sport) at prices
reasonable for the local players?
Anyway, it's unlikely that teams of local players will attend
any international tournaments anytime soon. I mean, outside of cost
there were some players from China that were not allowed to go to Hong
Kong for visa reasons! And Hong Kong is part of China!
The community website to link up these disparate groups in the
various cities sounds like an excellent one, as does helping to set up
a few tournaments with a focus on local teams.
Alec
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> ----- Original Message ----
> From: The D.O.C. < picas...@gmail.com>
> To: Asian_U...@yahoogroups.com; beijing-...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2007 9:11:43 PM
> Subject: [Asian_Ultimate] ultimate in china
>
>
>
>
> i thought i would say a few words about the state of ultimate in
> china, both to point out that there is a lot more happening then some
> people realize, and to solicit advice from other communities in asia
> on methods of development that have worked for you.
>
> in the past two years, the sport has started to take off locally. in
> beijing, there are two university teams that have practice/pick up on
> a regular basis, separate from most of the ex-pat players. big
> brother has a number of chinese players who practice with us, one of
> whom, sandy, is already one of the best female players in china and
> just keeps getting better. our summer league this year, which
> regularly had 50-60 people out each week, included about 15-20%
> chinese players.
>
> that's not to mention the teams that have sprung up in tianjin,
> dalian, ningbo, and shenzhen that i believe have all been started by
> local chinese who have picked up the sport somewhere along the way.
> tianjin hosted the first china national tournament in may, which
> brought together several of those teams, as well as the ex-pat
> dominated teams from shanghai, hong kong, and beijing.
>
> the sport is growing here, momentum is building, and it's just going
> to keep getting bigger and bigger.
>
> but the asian ultimate circuit, the way it exists now, is not the best
> outlet to either stimulate or showcase what china utliamte is all
> about. while i think it's great that local teams and individuals have
> been able to partake in the tournaments in shanghai, hong kong and
> jeju, and while everyone in beijing really appreciates the sponsorship
> that's been provided to local players by those three communities, it's
> unrealistic to expect to see an all local team traveling to very many
> of these tournaments outside of china. the reason isn't because of a
> lack of sports culture or the economic situation of china. i'm a rock
> climber, and i've seen the way that sport is just exploding with young
> people. and china has the fastest growing economy in the world. the
> money is to be had. the real issue is that the vast majority of these
> new players are students or recent college graduates. they don't have
> the money or the time to devote to tournaments that can cost between
> 500-1000 us dollars for individuals to get to and participate in.
>
> and that's fine. the natural path of development here is not to try
> and create local club teams to participate in asian wide tournaments.
> instead, we should be promoting the sport within communities, growing
> city leagues, holding more events focused on bringing together players
> from different cities, etc. and that's what's happening. as the
> sport continues to grow, and as these students become professionals
> and start earning more money, i guarantee you'll see more and more
> chinese players at international tournaments. but it should not be the
> first priority.
>
> so i'd be curious to hear what types of experiences other communities
> have been having. there are thriving local communities all over asia,
> and it's been great to see. i know that people here would love to
> hear what methods have worked for different communities so that we can
> try to help ultimate grow even faster.
>
> for those people in greater china that might be interested. we just
> created a google group for everyone in the region, both expats and
> chinese. http://groups. google.com/ group/greater- china-ultimate/
>
> and while we are on the subject of pat mccarthy and ultimate jinxes,
> he failed to mention that not only did his arrival in singapore
> coincide with the end of the freakshow dynasty, but his first
> tournament with freakshow in singapore was the first and only time
> that big brother won that tournament. the last time previously that
> beijing had won a tournament? 1999 in shanghai, just before pat got
> to beijing. talk about a jinx.
>
> doc
>
> On Nov 2, 2007 3:34 PM, Alec Hutson <alechutson@gmail. com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I would love to see Chinese teams come out of the country as well, but it
> > will not happen until there is a radical change in economics and social
> > attitudes towards sports in this country. Even in tournaments inside China
> > the local players have to be sponsored by the hosting team - Shanghai did
> > it for the teams at their tournament, and HK secured sponsorship for the
> > players that went to their tournament.
> >
> > Sports (outside of the Olympics) are simply not a priority right now in
> > China. There is almost no green space in the cities, and no culture of
> > youth leagues.
> >
> > The Freakshow of the early aughts is the measuring stick for regional
> > dominance. I must be terrible luck for Freakshow, since my arrival (a few
> > weeks before Shanghai 2004) was when Singapore's Asian dominance ended :-).
> > I doubt that any team in the future will attain similar results, if simply
> > because there are more good players in Asia, and they are more spread
> > around. Sing and Manila will likely always be good because of their local
> > players, and whether Beijing, Shanghai, Korea etc joins them will likely
> > depend on who is in those places for a 2-3 year stint. Shanghai is hitting
> > a high point right now with Jorve, Cho and Klaben, but none of those guys
> > are lifers (well, maybe Jorve . . . )
> >
> >
> >
> > Alec
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/2/07, Lance DuBos <lancedubos@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > spectator only at Singapore '96. Saw Mikey win best D in hiking boots.
> > He, Josh and Brian could win a game, any game.
> > > first tournament as a player Shanghai '99. fun times, Shanghai
> > >
> > > everybody's better now, but notice how Lou left out the dominant team the
> > whole time in between. Bali 2000 - Shanghai 2004, every final had a
> > Freakshow in it. The great thing is the slow but steady localisation of the
> > team, though they'll still not refuse that US or Euro stud.
> > >
> > > The local population have to take it up to make the sport stick. We'd
> > probably send 2 teams to taiwan if we could. Hope to see more of the
> > Chinese University teams come out of country.
> > >
> > > Who's in for Vietnam? Disc tour from Hanoi to Saigon?
> > >
> > > Lance
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Robert Locke < r...@mobius.ph>
> > > To: Asian_Ultimate@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 8:08:54 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Asian_Ultimate] tourney results
> > >
> > > > Ah yes. I still get misty when i think of the first
> > > > high release backhand i ever saw in 1997. Still the
> > > > prettiest throw in the game but...
> > > (c) Copyright Billy Berrou aka Crazy Frank
> > >
> > > I remember back when they let me play on the Philippine national squad.
> > Now
> > > they don't let me near their practices.
> > >
> > > Speaking of which, who's coming for Spirits? And is it too early to start
> > the
> > > smack talk? My (very biased) opinion is that PULA takes it, I don't care
> > who's
> > > coming. =D
> > >
> > > Rob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> i prefer not to think of all the misery but of all the beauty that
> still remains.
>
> -anne frank
>
>
>
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i prefer not to think of all the misery but of all the beauty that
still remains.
-anne frank
The D.O.C.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Robert Locke <r...@mobius.ph>
Date: Nov 5, 2007 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Asian_Ultimate] ultimate in china
To: Asian_U...@yahoogroups.com
Hey Doc,
Great to hear that ultimate is catching on in China - getting the locals
involved is the only way to sustainably grow the game.
Julie Gaw is considered the "mother" of Philippine Ultimate - if memory serves
she introduced the game to Manila back around 2000, maybe earlier. Back then
the scene consisted of a small group of mostly expats who would get together on
a small, dusty field in one of the village parks. I'm not sure the game
would've been recognizable to you as Ultimate, and it was more of an excuse to
get a little bit of exercise before getting shit-faced (maybe some things still
haven't changed). Our first international tournament was Hong Kong 2002, back
when we were called Manila Vice. We lost all our games, and I don't think we
even scored a point until the second day, though we did win the hotly contested
party award. Nontheless, the experience was a defining moment for many of us,
myself included - we realized that ultimate was, like, a real sport involving
things like strategy and practice.
At around this time, an expat named Tim Sullivan started spreading the love to
more and more Filipinos, concentrating his efforts at the University of the
Philippines. Not long after, around 2003, we incorporated the PUA, elected our
first board, and things sort of took off from there. Fast forward to 2007, we
have 25+ club teams, 3 leagues, 2 major international tournaments, and various
local ones. And Ultimate is not limited to Manila anymore thanks to the efforts
of several evangelists who've spread the gospel to Cebu, Iloilo, Dumaguete and
Davao. We still have long way to go, but I would attribute our early success
to:
* Formally incorporating an association - a lot of sponsors won't deal with an
unincorporated entity.
* Having a Board of passionate players with a clear vision for promoting and
developing the sport.
* Hosting international tournaments. Similar to China, many of our players
don't have the budget to travel to foreign tournaments, so we brought the
tournaments to them. Watching ballers like Joel Melanson and Nami really
inspired our players to up their game. On a related note, we learned a lot from
players like Jeff Staples, John Lin, Steinar, Andrew Chang who shared their
knowledge and even flew over here to run local clinics.
* Having local leaders like Wendell, Jason, Peng, etc. who are dialed into the
local scene, can get sponsors, recruit players, and selflessly lend their time
to teach the game. And having expat leaders like Sebastian, Bart and Dale
who've played elite ultimate and who can share their experience.
* Having a strong club system, running multiple leagues, mixing it up with a few
hat tournaments.
* Getting into the universities. Running clinics. The previous board
instituted the National Youth Training Program (NYTP) which is churning out some
solid young players. The universities are also a good source for fields.
* Lots of pick up - on any given night there's ultimate happening somewhere in
the city.
* Government support - we haven't had any! But I'm sure that could be a huge
help in other countries.
I would add to that list the fact that the early pioneers never had to deal with
any major language or cultural barriers - a big help! We've also been lucky in
terms of fields. We've used the university club teams to tap their fields,
having played a few leagues in Ateneo University and the University of the
Philippines. Some of our players are members at various country clubs, so we've
been blessed to have access to the Manila Polo Club and Alabang Country Club.
But as the game increases in popularity, and as demand for field space grows
with other sports like soccer and flag football, this could turn into a real
problem for us in the future.
Moving forward, I see the PUA's mandate shifting to having a more national focus
- spreading the game, running a national championship series as well as training
programs, managing the national squad, fund raising, supporting the
regional/city associations. The job of running local leagues and tourneys would
then fall on the city associations, which are already beginning to sprout.
Hope this helps somehow...
Rob
PS. Doc, I can't remember a single one of our secret words...
Lauren Reed
This is my first post to the group. Hope it finds you well. I love the
idea of having all messages bilingual. In cases like this (i.e. really
long emails) perhaps someone can give a brief summary instead of word-
for-word translations.
Just a thought.
Also, anyone else besides Shen willing to translate?
Cheers,
Lauren (Barbie)
大家好！
这是我第一个到这个google论坛的邮件。
我同意 Doc，Shen， 和 Nick Liu 的想法。每个信息都应该是双语言的。但，在这么一个情况下 （很常的邮件），也许一个翻译可以写一
个概要，不用一词一词的去翻译，否则对翻译来讲就会特别辛苦！除了沈之外，还有愿意做翻译的吗？
开开心心！
罗岚 （芭比）
> > On Nov 2, 2007 3:34 PM, Alec Hutson <alechut...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I would love to see Chinese teams come out of the country as well, but it
> > > will not happen until there is a radical change in economics and social
> > > attitudes towards sports in this country. Even in tournaments inside China
> > > the local players have to be sponsored by the hosting team - Shanghai did
> > > it for the teams at their tournament, and HK secured sponsorship for the
> > > players that went to their tournament.
>
> > > Sports (outside of the Olympics) are simply not a priority right now in
> > > China. There is almost no green space in the cities, and no culture of
> > > youth leagues.
>
> > > The Freakshow of the early aughts is the measuring stick for regional
> > > dominance. I must be terrible luck for Freakshow, since my arrival (a few
> > > weeks before Shanghai 2004) was when Singapore's Asian dominance ended :-).
> > > I doubt that any team in the future will attain similar results, if simply
> > > because there are more good players in Asia, and they are more spread
> > > around. Sing and Manila will likely always be good because of their local
> > > players, and whether Beijing, Shanghai, Korea etc joins them will likely
> > > depend on who is in those places for a 2-3 year stint. Shanghai is hitting
> > > a high point right now with Jorve, Cho and Klaben, but none of those guys
> > > are lifers (well, maybe Jorve . . .
>
> ...
>
> 阅读更多
