Repha rendering in the middle of a poly-conjunct consonant cluster

[Ambarish Sridharanarayanan]

Given the repha has both post-conjunct and pre-conjunct forms, how does one render a repha in the middle of a consonant cluster? My examples du jour are putryaḥ and dāridryam. In the case of dāridryam, here are the various ways I can think of rendering the 'drya' cluster:

a. da, virama, ya, pre-conjunct-repha

I find this ambiguous, as it’s not clear what the position of the pre-conjunct-repha is.

b. da, virama, ra-ya-stacked

I’ve never sees repha in a stack.

c. da, post-conjunct-repha, virama, ya

I’ve never seen a virama after a post-conjunct-repha.

d. da, post-conjunct-repha, post-conjunct-ya

I’ve never seen 2 post-conjunct forms smashed together like this.

What does the group think?

[Vinodh Rajan]

Hi,

"d" is the correct way to render <c>rya ligature. 

For more information look here: http://virtualvinodh.com/grantha-lipitva/198-grantha-15-conjuncts-iv

Cheers,

V

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[Marco Franceschini]

Dear Ambarish,

in the manuscripts I’ve seen so far I’ve found only the ligature that you list as option d.

The following two specimens ("drya" and "dryu") are taken from a manuscript of the Aṣṭādhyāyī written in Thoothukudi district in 1829:





Best,

Marco

[Vinodh Rajan]

Dear Marco.

Can you please re-attach the images ? For some reason, they have been become mangled as plain-text in your previous mail.

Cheers,

V

[Marco Franceschini]

Sorry for that! I attach the two images again; hope it works this time.

Best,

Marco
---

[Ambarish Sridharanarayanan]

Thanks, Vinodh and Marco for the immediate and useful responses.

For context, now that Unicode 7.0 (with an encoding for Grantha) is on the verge of being standardised, I'm looking to see if I could add Apple ATT support to a Grantha font to make it render correctly on OS X systems (Windows is difficult as it requires a Uniscribe change).

[Marco Franceschini]

Dear Ambarish,

in the manuscripts I’ve seen so far I’ve found only the ligature that you list as option d.

The following two specimens are taken from a manuscript of the Aṣṭādhyāyī written in Thoothukudi district in 1829:

 drya

 dryu

Hope this helps.

Best,

Marco

---

[Vinodh Rajan]

2014-02-18 11:31 GMT+00:00 Ambarish Sridharanarayanan <amba...@ksharanam.net>:

Thanks, Vinodh and Marco for the immediate and useful responses.

For context, now that Unicode 7.0 (with an encoding for Grantha) is on the verge of being standardised, I'm looking to see if I could add Apple ATT support to a Grantha font to make it render correctly on OS X systems (Windows is difficult as it requires a Uniscribe change).

Hi Ambarish,

The problem is that we don't have any Opensource glyphs that we could re-use for a Unicode Grantha font. All the fonts that are presently available for Grantha are copyrighted. Either we request one of the them to relinquish copyright and release the glyphs under a opensource license (which is quite unlikely) or create new glyphs from scratch.  

I am not sure if you already have permission to make changes to an existing grantha font, but if you do have one.. it's really great ! (We could also add Graphite support)

Shriramana has been trying to create new Glyphs (cloning the old traditional typeface), but we actually haven't made much progress. Frankly, the easiest way is to have some (well.. lots actually) funding (which is again quite unlikely) to hire a professional font designer and release an opensource typeface, resolving all font issues.

V

[Ambarish Sridharanarayanan]

On Tuesday, 18 February 2014 07:48:21 UTC-8, Vinodh Rajan wrote:

2014-02-18 11:31 GMT+00:00 Ambarish Sridharanarayanan <amba...@ksharanam.net>:

For context, now that Unicode 7.0 (with an encoding for Grantha) is on the verge of being standardised, I'm looking to see if I could add Apple ATT support to a Grantha font to make it render correctly on OS X systems (Windows is difficult as it requires a Uniscribe change).

The problem is that we don't have any Opensource glyphs that we could re-use for a Unicode Grantha font. All the fonts that are presently available for Grantha are copyrighted. Either we request one of the them to relinquish copyright and release the glyphs under a opensource license (which is quite unlikely) or create new glyphs from scratch.  

I am not sure if you already have permission to make changes to an existing grantha font, but if you do have one.. it's really great ! (We could also add Graphite support)

No, I don't. To be honest, at this point, I'm just playing around with Fontforge on an existing non-Unicode typeface (obviously, I can't release this work as I don't have a licence to the existing typeface). I'm no expert, but creating the AAT and OpenType tables seems to me to be as much work as creating a barebones set of glyphs. I'm doing the former in the hope that it'll come in useful someday. In a couple of weeks or so, I hope to get the AAT tables done.

Shriramana has been trying to create new Glyphs (cloning the old traditional typeface), but we actually haven't made much progress.

Like I said, I'm not a font designer, and am not even particularly artistic :-), but I'm now somewhat familiar with using Fontforge to create the tables. Let me know if (and how) I can help.

 

Frankly, the easiest way is to have some (well.. lots actually) funding (which is again quite unlikely) to hire a professional font designer and release an opensource typeface, resolving all font issues.

Do you have an idea of the kind of funding we're looking at here?

[Vinodh Rajan]

On 24 February 2014 02:01, Ambarish Sridharanarayanan <amba...@ksharanam.net> wrote:

Do you have an idea of the kind of funding we're looking at here?

I have asked Modular Infotech ( http://www.modular-infotech.com ), the creators of Shreelipi font for a quote.

They said they'll get back soon. I'll update the quote here.

V

--
http://www.virtualvinodh.com

[Vinodh Rajan]

I just got the reply.

They have quoted £10 per character :-|

Assuming Grantha needs about ~150 characters, it comes around £1500, which is quite a lot of money :-(

Alternatively, we can try getting around 150 people sponsoring 10 quid for each Grantha glyph :P

V

[Vijay Vanbakkam]

I can throw 100 quid in the hat.
 
v
 

---

From: vinodh...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:04:45 +0000
Subject: Re: Repha rendering in the middle of a poly-conjunct consonant cluster
To: granth...@googlegroups.com

[Ambarish Sridharanarayanan]

Me too, but hold on.

1. Is it $1500 for just the glyphs, or will they provide the tables too? Who will they assign copyright to? And will the font be modifiable?

2. On a related note, I've managed to reach out to the creators of the IITM-Grantha font, and they're willing to help the community out. Vinodh, would you or someone else here know exactly what's required of them? Is it enough for me to have email from them saying they're OK if we modify their typeface?

3. As below, I've been trying to make the IITM-Grantha font Unicode-aware. Attached are some screen-shots from TextEdit and Chrome.

[Vinodh Rajan]

On 24 February 2014 11:01, Ambarish Sridharanarayanan <amba...@ksharanam.net> wrote:

Me too, but hold on.

1. Is it $1500 for just the glyphs, or will they provide the tables too? Who will they assign copyright to? And will the font be modifiable?

£10 per character is just for producing the glyph sans the OT tables.

I have asked if they would be relinquishing the copyrights (given that its a custom commission). They were earlier saying that they would charge the entire production cost is on us (so I assume most probably they might relinquish the copyrights to us)

 

2. On a related note, I've managed to reach out to the creators of the IITM-Grantha font, and they're willing to help the community out. Vinodh, would you or someone else here know exactly what's required of them? Is it enough for me to have email from them saying they're OK if we modify their typeface?

Well... Ideally they should release their font under OFL. 

I guess they just have to (re) release the font with an accompanying licensing text. See under "Using the OFL" here: http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=OFL

When we release the Tamil Brahmi font under OFL, we did the same. We had an accompanying file which stated the font is released under OFL (followed by the license Verbatim).

I had modified the IIT M found around 10 years to add more conjunct support and fix the I/II vowel signs, If they do so, it would also retroactively validate the modified IITM-Grantha font I have :)

When I mailed them regarding the font in 2003/2004, they didn't even send me the keymap.. for pete's sake. 

I am glad after all these years, they are actually OK with people modifying their font !

3. As below, I've been trying to make the IITM-Grantha font Unicode-aware. Attached are some screen-shots from TextEdit and Chrome.

That looks really good. 

Are the glyphs in PUA or have they been hack-encoded in one of the Indic code blocks with OT support ?

Cheers,

V

[Ambarish Sridharanarayanan]

On Monday, 24 February 2014 03:52:24 UTC-8, Vinodh Rajan wrote:

On 24 February 2014 11:01, Ambarish Sridharanarayanan <amba...@ksharanam.net> wrote:

2. On a related note, I've managed to reach out to the creators of the IITM-Grantha font, and they're willing to help the community out. Vinodh, would you or someone else here know exactly what's required of them? Is it enough for me to have email from them saying they're OK if we modify their typeface?

Well... Ideally they should release their font under OFL. 

I guess they just have to (re) release the font with an accompanying licensing text. See under "Using the OFL" here: http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=OFL

The person who created the font is now retired from IITM, but I'll see if I can get him to do a one-off release of the font.

 

3. As below, I've been trying to make the IITM-Grantha font Unicode-aware. Attached are some screen-shots from TextEdit and Chrome.

That looks really good. 

Are the glyphs in PUA or have they been hack-encoded in one of the Indic code blocks with OT support ?

Thanks :-) The glyphs are in the correct slots for Grantha as in Unicode 7.0. This is on OS X, and there's no need for OT support in the OS; it all works through the AAT tables I've added. Still a few bugs, like in dāridryam (as in the original email in this thread). Assuming the licensing issues can be worked out, installing this font should be enough for Grantha to just-work on an OS X system.

[Jean-Luc Chevillard]

I shall be happy to contribute also
for the same amount,
provided of course that the result is freely usable
by scholars all over the world

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Pondy)

"https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"

[Vinodh Rajan]

Modular Infotech have replied the Copyright notice will point to Modular Infotech, but the font ownership will be with us so we are free to license/modify as we wish.

Shriramana,

Given that the Lohit fonts were also designed by Modular Infotech, what do you think ? 

Frankly, I don't think as amateur font enthusiasts, we will never be able to create a "production quality" Grantha font.

Even with a very conservative estimate of 150 glyphs.. the cost ends up pretty high.  Would it be (realistically) possible to gather the required funds for it ?

V

http://www.virtualvinodh.com

[Ramakrishnan]

The other option could be to pay and licence it as a propreitory product and sell it to interested folks until the project breaks even. Then it can be made open source.

Ram

[Shriramana Sharma]

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Vinodh Rajan <vinodh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Modular Infotech have replied the Copyright notice will point to Modular
> Infotech, but the font ownership will be with us so we are free to
> license/modify as we wish.

I am not sure what is the meaning of "copyright will be with Modular
but ownership will be with us". If we are the owners since we have
paid for it, how can copyright rest with them? This seems like a trap
cleverly worded.

> Given that the Lohit fonts were also designed by Modular Infotech, what do
> you think ?

Actually the copyright notice on the old versions (recently it
mentions the Lohit project only) mentions some: "Automatic Control
Equipments, Pune, INDIA". Since I was using ShreeLipi back in 2002
before this font, I am sure this company was separate at the time.
Perhaps it is now merged with Modular. I am not sure what is the
source of the Wikipedia article saying it was designed by Modular.
(The relevant edit diff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lohit_fonts&diff=prev&oldid=582242175)

The thing with the Lohit copyright is that Red Hat only paid off the
author whoever it is to release it under the OFL. Since the licence is
OFL Red Hat didn't care if the copyright pointed to whoever. Of
course, with open source, the author is by default the copyright
holder. But the point here is that Modular says "we are the copyright
holder but you are the owner" which seems double-speak to me but of
course IANAL though I have relatives and friends who are...

> Frankly, I don't think as amateur font enthusiasts, we will never be able to
> create a "production quality" Grantha font.

And frankly I think you are being pessimistic. "amateur" !=
"unskilled". We'll see what happens.

> Even with a very conservative estimate of 150 glyphs.. the cost ends up
> pretty high. Would it be (realistically) possible to gather the required
> funds for it ?

I am surprised why you hurried out to contact Modular when it was
pretty clear they wouldn't look at this as anything other than a
commercial venture in the sense of helping to preserve heritage etc.

FWIW I have pinged my contact in the IT Dept of the Central Govt since
they have funds for this sort of thing already paid for by the Indian
public via taxes, and three years back when we had the meeting they
said they would get it done by CDAC. In the middle we had various
problems regarding progressing the encoding so the font making took a
back seat. Now that the encoding is on the horizon I have reiterated
the need for a font and he has promised to talk to his superiors
regarding it.

Often people are doubtful whether the Govt will get anything
meaningful done, but we should remember that in the case of Grantha,
they did arrange a scholarly meeting here in India (for which they
flew me to Delhi) and then sent their representative to the US for the
Unicode Technical Committee meeting. So I hope they can do a font for
this also. Of course, it may take some time since after all it is a
bureaucratic setup.

Given that we already have Elmar Kniprath's Malayalam Unicode font
(which we can ask Elmar to update to Unicode once it is released) and
other non-Unicode fonts to tide us over for the time being, is there
an urgency to have an OFL font *commercially done*?

--
Shriramana Sharma ஶ்ரீரமணஶர்மா श्रीरमणशर्मा

[Shriramana Sharma]

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Ramakrishnan <srk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The other option could be to pay and licence it as a propreitory product and
> sell it to interested folks until the project breaks even. Then it can be
> made open source.

Somehow I am sceptical whether this would work out. Just yesterday I
was talking with an epigraphist in Pondicherry who said already
somebody in Chennai has made a Grantha font and gave it to the TN
Govt's Archaeology Dept for publications, but when this scholar asked
for it, they said they only give out a single user licence (not public
use) for ₹10,000. Obviously, there are no takers. Who is going to pay
big money for a Grantha font so that we may expect to break even any
time soon?

[Vijay]

While we are discussing the grantha lipi , it’s unicode, glyphs, etc  it is worth remembering Helvetica  font which has proven it’s durability and ubiquitousness over years in the digital age. I hope Grantha font designers draw lessons from the success of  Helvetica.

 

“good design is unobtrusive and long lasting”

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-26383185

 

Vijayaraghavan