RTK official support on Qualcomm

[lodrog...@gmail.com]

great news for the enthusiast users of the GNSS. With the latest SoC of qualcomm the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 Mobile Platform, we can have RTK support. It seems, this is the first official announcement into a flagship SoC. Probably all the new SoC at all the price levels, will add this capabilities.

when we visit this page, we can found the proof
https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon-8-gen-1-mobile-platform

Global lane-level freeway navigation enabled by Qualcomm® Sensor-Assisted Positioning and Qualcomm® Decimeter-Level Positioning with dual-frequency Real-Time Kinematic (RTK)

[Mattia Ballerini]

with an external antenna will be great.

[lodrog...@gmail.com]

what do you mean with "external antenna" ?
we are talking about RTK ground transmission from internet. That works with the GSM modem into the smartphone. Do you have seen any mobile (smartphone) device with "external antenna" into year 2022 ?

don't confuse the GNSS receiver, with the GSM mobile receiver.
my opinion for the antenna for the gnss receiver is a good "patch antenna". This is internal solution. One example is this
taoglas GPDF5012.A
www.taoglas.com/product/multiband-high-precision-gnss/

[lodrog...@gmail.com]

for the moment, there are no more details about

- is this free or paid ?
- where we must connect ? at qualocomm, google (android), or other servers ?
- how we connect ? is there any menu inside the android ? do we must run any special apk (software) ?
- reviews (proofs) about those announcements

[Sean Barbeau]

This is interesting, thanks for sharing!

One possibility here is that Qualcomm is just adding the capability for carrier phase measurements to the hardware, but leaving full-blown RTK up to OEMs and/or 3rd parties to implement. Historically their marketing text hasn't exactly been clear.

Looking at the GPSTest Database, no Snapdragon devices have reported support for the Android API for carrier phase measurements (see columns G and N) - there are 0 records that have "qcom" in column G and "SUPPORTED" in column N.

https://bit.ly/gpstest-device-database

Maybe this changes now. This feature would at least allow OEMs or 3rd parties to do RTK.

Either way, given the mess dual-frequency has been, I'm assuming RTK support on mobile devices will be very fragmented with some devices having the physical capability but not enabled by OEM.

Sean

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[lodrog...@gmail.com]

Qualcomm and Trimble announce GNSS location partnership for Android flagships
https://www.gsmarena.com/qualcomm_and_trimble_announce_gnss_location_partnership_for_android_flagships_-news-53672.php

for more info about the RTK, read the article

[Sean Barbeau]

Interesting, thanks for sharing!

So I guess Trimble is the reference station provider for RTK. It says service is expected to be available in Q2 2022. My assumption reading the press release is that this is something that's enabled under-the-hood at the chipset level to calculate locations that all apps would benefit from (i.e., any app that gets a location from the Location API). But we'll see when more info becomes available.

It is interesting that the press release says:

> Trimble (NASDAQ: TRMB) and Qualcomm Technologies, Inc. announced today the availability of Trimble RTX® GNSS technology for Snapdragon® 8 Gen 1 and Snapdragon 888 Mobile Platforms. 

The Snapdragon 888:

https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon-888-5g-mobile-platform

...doesn't list RTK on it's specs, but the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 does:

https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon-8-gen-1-mobile-platform

So does the Snapdragon 888 have the same RTK capabilities as the 8 Gen 1, or is the Trimble RTX service for the 888 slightly different (e.g., doesn't support carrier-phase-based corrections)?

Either way, it's disappointing that apparently the 8 Gen 1 still doesn't support the Android API for carrier phase-based raw measurements - see my thread here:

https://twitter.com/sjbarbeau/status/1492599442901508102

Sean

[lodrog...@gmail.com]

if everyone can see that there are at least one SoC, the 888, with hidden support of RTK, we can imagine it will be more. Last 2 years, all the new qualcomm SoC into every price category can have RTK capabilities - but hidden from Android, because of qualcomm firmware / drivers. If this is not true, i don't believe into the next 2-3 years the RTK don't apper into lower prices SoC. Just like the 5G did, first at flagship models and then everywhere.

[Sean Barbeau]

I reached out to Trimble asking about Trimble RTX - here's what I said:

>I saw this press release:

>https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-and-trimble-introduce-meter-level-location-accuracy-for-smartphones-301507317.html

>

>...and was interested in more details as to how I would sign up for this...

>

>Questions:

>1. What are the costs?

>2. Does the improved accuracy work on all apps on my phone (e.g., Google Maps, Waze, Uber, Lyft)?

>3. How do I know if the service is active on my phone?

I got this reply:

>The Trimble RTX enabled precise positioning feature for Android smartphones is planned to be distributed in partnership with the Android smartphone manufacturers, for their selected models of smartphone handsets.  Trimble and Qualcomm will be working together with Android smartphone manufacturers to enable the capability on these designated handset models.  Trimble is not in a position to be able to advise the availability and release plans of the Android smartphone manufacturers.

So it does sound like something that's enabled under-the-hood at the chipset level to calculate locations that all apps would benefit from (i.e., any app that gets a location from the Location API) - that's good.

The bad part is that I don't think there will be any way to confirm that a particular make/model phone actually has this feature activated, other than some kind of announcement from the OEM.

Sean

[lodrog...@gmail.com]

there was no answer about the cost. Why that ?

[Sean Barbeau]

I think their reply was intended to be a "no answer" on all points. They were just directing us to go talk to the device manufacturer. But to me that implies that it will be launched as a device feature, and therefore likely free to the end user. I doubt any device manufacturer would charge more for a particular device because RTK is enabled.

I could, of course, be wrong. There could be a model where you would need to reach out to Trimble, Qualcomm, or the OEM to pay to turn on the service after you get your device, but that doesn't seem likely to me.

Sean

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022, 4:28 AM lodrog...@gmail.com <lodrog...@gmail.com> wrote:

there was no answer about the cost. Why that ?

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[lodrog...@gmail.com]

the following text has my thoughts

- trimble RTX is a subscription service for professionals people with a 4 digit cost per year for accuracy of 1-2 cm. Why they will give it to amatuer people for FREE ???
- if the latest SoC's or into the near future (not only from qualcomm) have RTK / RTX capabilities why other companies like qoogle they don't support it somehow ?
- why the customers must pay for
1. sim card with voice and data per month
2. rtk / rtx subscription
for have cm accuracy near to mobile antenna ???
in the other hand, SBAS is for free for 30-60 cm, even into the mountain EVEREST. Unfortunately, it is only into pro devices

[Sean Barbeau]

> - trimble RTX is a subscription service for professionals people with a 4 digit cost per year for accuracy of 1-2 cm. Why they will give it to amatuer people for FREE ???

Because they can charge OEMs for it at scale. I assume they will make far more money if Samsung pays them a few dollars per device than if they try to charge end users directly. Also, I don't think it's the exact same service you'd see on survey-grade GNSS as they are claiming a lesser degree of accuracy (meter-level vs. decimeter-level). The press release says:

> This will enable smartphone manufacturers, service providers and application developers using Snapdragon to provide mobile users with robust meter-level accuracy (or about 3 feet) when used with a Trimble RTX-based correction service. This represents a 5x improvement in location accuracy compared to typical accuracy available today.

So this version of the service might be less resource-intensive for them to support (e.g., information on device updated less frequently).

>- if the latest SoC's or into the near future (not only from qualcomm) have RTK / RTX capabilities why other companies like qoogle they don't support it somehow ?

That's a good question. In theory I believe you could use something like NTRIP for this as a standard - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Networked_Transport_of_RTCM_via_Internet_Protocol. But the trick is that you need a network of reference stations, and I don't know if Trimble owns these directly or leases them from someone else for the Trimble RTX service. I know Google maintains SUPL servers, so it's possible they could extend to supporting NTRIP if they had access to the reference stations. For Pixels I could see Google setting up their own RTK servers if they had access to the reference stations.

Sean

[lodrog...@gmail.com]

thanks Sean

[Jason Harrop]

https://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=303446 (13 April 2023) says Qualcomm and Xiaomi announced that they verified meter-level positioning in Xiaomi 12T Pro powered by the Snapdragon® 8+ Gen 1 Mobile Platform, in Germany. Qualcomm® Meter-Level Positioning for Mobile was first launched by Xiaomi via its Xiaomi 11 Pro and Xiaomi 11 Ultra in China.

Seem to be the only phones so far.  Enable " through Qualcomm® Meter-Level Positioning for Mobile in combination with Trimble RTX correction services".  https://positioningservices.trimble.com/en/rtx says its available via satellite delivery.  Hope it works that way on phones (ie no need for 4G/5G Internet)