Are people with more knowledge more critical or more humble, or can they be both?

[Sang Won Sur]

Hey guys,

As I think about complexities of life, I came to a standstill asking
this question . . . . what do you guys think?




"Are people with more knowledge more critical or more humble, or can
they be both?"





Try to think deep and I think it may bewilder you too when you really
think about it. In another sense -- is studying so hard a good thing
or a bad thing (for those of you in school)? Does knowledge enhance
community or isolation?

Let me know what you guys think.


The confused "ghetto" (<-- according to the words of Paul) "gangsta" ~
(<-- according to the words of Qi)
-Sang

[Paul Kim]

Hello Sang,
    I think it really depends on the specific individual.  I think the answer can be both in where the person can be both critical and humble.  I guess the answer really lies on their past and the their influence.  Having more knowledge then others will definitely be a plus in which it can cause them to be more critical but it really depends on the persons motive. Matters if they really care to be a critical person or a humble person.  Like i mentioned before, I personally think that it depends on the characters of that person and their interest of that matter.  I hope my opinion helped.

-PK

---

From: Sang Won Sur <sa...@sangnjh.com>
To: gps4...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 13, 2009 10:44:01 AM
Subject: [GPS4Jesus Email] Are people with more knowledge more critical or more humble, or can they be both?

--
GPS4Jesus Ministries
http://www.gps4jesus.com
gps4...@googlegroups.com

[Sang Sur]

Thanks for the response . . . but let's try to dig a bit deeper

You said a person can be both critical and humble with knowledge, but
that depends on
1. Their past (the character of the person, their proven past)
2. Their influence (you may want to explain this a bit more)
3. Interest in the matter (I suppose, how much the person cares about
a particular topic for which to be critical or humble on)

People may be critical but "it can be good or bad" (I'm adding the
words in quotes) depending on motive. (So, in essence, being critical
is not a bad thing)

You also added, it matters whether they see themselves as critical or
humble (<-- not sure what you mean here)


--------

So, if I understand you correctly, it's not always bad to be critical
(depends on your motive), and one may be critical and humble with
knowledge based on the three things: past (proven character),
influence, and interest in the matter.

Good observation.

Do the rest of you agree? and try to dig a bit more deeper -- maybe
give examples -- how does someone with knowledge that is critical or
humble affect all of us? Have you ever stood in that position where
you have the knowledge (such as football, video game, or music
aesthetics) and had to question whether to be critical, humble, both,
or neither?


I think this question is trickier than it seems. Think about it.

---------

I think one thing that can become confusing, and need of discernment
would be the fact that most of us, if not all of us, believe "we're"
right -- or that we have the right knowledge. So then, if we're right,
then others are obviously wrong (unless they hold the same view as
you) -- then out of love or for the correction of the other person, do
you correct them? (when you correct someone, it can be viewed as being
critical). Is that humility? or is that love?

What do you guys think?


da confused one ~ (making confusing things even more confusing)
-Sang

[Sheene Cho]

 hey Sang !
 
Its funny how I talked about this in one of my classes but its was called something like hierarchtical cultural from a guy named Bauman, anyway it was hard for me to understand this concept and it seems as though there are different ways of looking at it. I don't think that it is humility when correcting the ones you love because if you are not there to show them what they've done wrong or what they are doing wrong then how can one say they love another when they are letting them live in the wrong. But then again it can be debated if what that person thinks in wrong is actually wrong or just selfish. When something is brought to someone's attention, then most people take it into consideration, especially if it is brought out by the people who love them. If that person has any knowledge they will realize and adjust as well taking into consideration of the people who love them and deciding whether to be humble or critical back. People with more knowledge don't ride on a high horse and say 'I'm right' but take others into consideration and adjust according to the situation. Someone with knowledge would know how to handle a situation and then decide if it calls for a more critical or humble action.
 
Did i just ramble? sorry.
 
-Sheene
 
> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:44:56 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GPS4Jesus Email] Are people with more knowledge more critical or more humble, or can they be both?
> From: san...@gmail.com
> To: gps4...@googlegroups.com

---

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[codele...@yahoo.com]

+1

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: Paul Kim <lyfeo...@yahoo.com>

Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:20:40 -0800 (PST)

To: <gps4...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [GPS4Jesus Email] Are people with more knowledge more critical or more humble, or can they be both?

[codele...@yahoo.com]

+1 this one also.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: Sheene Cho <shee...@hotmail.com>

Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:31:25 +0000

To: <gps4...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: RE: [GPS4Jesus Email] Are people with more knowledge more critical or more humble, or can they be both?

[Sang Sur]

I think everyone knows this is no ramble compared to Sang-standards -- ha ha ha

Ask Paul, he has been most bombarded by my super duper long emails =)

------------

Sheene ~ it's great to hear from you, and thanks for giving your input.

I think you hit some really good points ~

Just to make what you clarified more confusing:
Correcting others in love is a Biblical concept as well, but to
actually do it in real-life is hard -- isn't it?



For example, Yuri watches me play the guitar, she notices that I
mis-strummed and now the song is totally out of beat. But with my
completely-musically-deaf ears, it sounds fine to me. I keep doing
this every week, and it's hard for the people to sing along -- and
praise time seems to be suffering. One day, Yuri approaches me and
explains that I'm musically messing up, and she can go on to explain
in detail where and how I messed up. B/c she and I are close, I'm
likely to listen to her -- but for most cases (just think of other
people you interface on a frequent basis), would the receiver of the
comments readily accept?


I think couple of things can occur here: (in this scenario -- if Yuri
and I were not close)
1. I believe I know concepts of music as much as Yuri does (though all
of us know this is never true); in this case, I don't believe she is
very knowledgeable ("you're no better than me") -- this can also be,
"Yuri's younger than me, she can't possibly know better than me"
mentality ("the person telling me is inferior to me")

2. I don't trust Yuri, I think she had an evil intent and seeks to
mess me up, therefore I just want to dismiss her comments and get her
off my back ("just stop criticizing me!")

3. I don't want to learn, I feel I learned enough, and don't need
anyone to teach me ("I'm fine just the way I am") - I think this can
also be classified with "I'm too busy for you"

I suppose the person can also receive the comments favorably, but I
think many of you can relate to those times when we don't want to
accept someone else's criticism, even though it was meant to help.
(and there's times when people don't want to hear us even when we mean
to help them)

And for that reason, we often don't say anything to help a
brother/sister or close friends when we ought to (do you guys agree?)
~

Those in college may relate to friends that overdrink. If you were to
"correct" them, you'd be uncool. I often see friends allowing other
friends to go the wrong way without correction (you guys know people
that jumped into a relationship for the wrong reasons and they end up
broken up and more depressed, right?) -- but not correcting or giving
criticism to those we love is not real love, is it? Then again, people
with some knowledge (such as drinking too much is bad for you), find
it hard to "criticize" because it is often taken unfavorably.

I guess we're getting closer to why I'm asking the question (I'll
share that after leaving this post going for a week) -- but when you
have the knowledge to correct something, should you say something to
correct the situation (you'll be seen as critical), or should you
remain holy and humble by stay quiet?

-----------

Then, I think to confuse the heck out of everything ~ who is really
right, what is knowledge? If I know from my knowledge that buying a
certain property would be a money maker, does that make me right? In a
video game, is there often just one way to beat a board? Who am I to
judge whether the relationship will work or not?

-----------

Sheene, I really liked how you ended your "rambling" - ha ha ha

"People with more knowledge don't ride on a high horse and say 'I'm
right' but take others into consideration and adjust according to the
situation. Someone with knowledge would know how to handle a situation
and then decide if it calls for a more critical or humble action."

I think you're referring to wisdom -- but it's really hard to make the
wise choices -- how should we live?

Aren't life choices more confusing as we grow older?

---------

One thing I can leave you all with is:

Do you accept criticism well? Are you someone that is teachable? Do
you welcome others to give you feedback, or are you often feeling
you're fine on your own?

This is the religious heart that Jesus came to break -- the Pharisees
were often very hard-hearted -- they thought their laws and ways were
right -- do we become like that sometimes?


Continue to throw your feedback =)

-Sang

PS -- this is called real rambling! =)

[Sang Sur]

Hey guys,

You can ignore the email from Ralph Acerno -- I can explain what
happened -- but that'll have to wait until we end this post.

God's showing me something, and I'm currently asking Him to confirm a
few things --- I think we should all get together some time next week,
because I'd like to share with everyone if God completes the picture
for me. More on this later . . .


For now, try to dig deeper to the original question

"Are people with more knowledge more critical or more humble, or can
they be both?"

(there's enough extraneous questions that exist in this chain --
everyone, please write on something -- at least take a side on one of
the extraneous questions so we at least hear from you before we close
this chain of posts). Bobby, Yuri, Jason, David!!!! Those that have
written, challenge the things I wrote on your posts.

There is no right or wrong answer -- but I think it goes deep if you
think more about it. . . .

Let me throw another curve ball question -- how do you love God? how
do you love others? What are the practical things you do to keep those
two commandments of God (to love God and people)? Are you forming a
community or are you isolating yourself?

-Slacka ghetto gangsta

[Ji Young Hwang]

um....sang, my emails flooding with gps4jesus.... 
slow down there...

[Sang Sur]

I suppose we should close this thread. . . . (Before officially
closing though, I want you guys to give me some feedback)

I'm still not fully sure how to answer this question, and I think this
becomes more like a life-long question to ask . . .

The reason why I asked this question was, there are some people that
have called me critical (critical being in a negative connotation --
it means that I believe my way is right and their way is wrong -- and
you can see how it can be hurtful to some people). Then, I asked
myself, do I want to be "viewed as" critical (with a negative
perception from the other person?) -- or should I be "viewed as" a
loving person (and we can often call this person being humble) <--
remember key word I'm using here is "viewed as"

I think when a person loves (Godly love for our brothers and sisters)
s/he should be able to rebuke and correct if
#1. Something is not Biblical (whether actions or words),
#2 if their actions or words (though not correct-worthy from the
Scriptures) are hurting others or lessening others' chance to approach
God.
(This is also Scriptural method of dealing with conflicts -- Check
Matthew 18:15-20).

I read a book called the "The Tale of Three Kings" by Gene Edwards
(everyone should read it!!!), and it talks about how in position of
conflict, King David (before becoming a king) just dodged, took some
stabbings, but did not say a word. I wonder if this is a position of
humility? (Then again, the prophets of Scriptures corrected kings, but
prophets were rejected by the kings and the people. Prophets loved
God, and loved the king so much that they wanted him to turn back to
God. . . but they were just viewed as critical and people to be
ignored and dismissed).

So then, which is the right way to live? Live in ignorance (be "viewed
as" humble and obedient) or correct our brothers and sisters when we
see wrong? (but we must also be careful of the plank in our own eye --
Matthew 7:1-6)



When I asked my close mentors about this question, they often told me
that my complaints/criticisms often turn out to be right (because I
often talk about things where I'm "knowledgeable" about <-- remember
the word "knowledge" is from the crux of the question) . . . and are
valid corrections (and it's good that I pointed those issues out). But
they also add that people don't understand as much as I do about that
particular matter . . . so I need to be patient with them. (Do you
guys ever feel like that sometimes? It's like if I were to get a piano
lesson from Yuri or a photography lesson from Paul, or Warcraft lesson
from David, Call of Duty from Jason or Bobby . . . you may be able to
correct me, but I can just respond ~ "it still sounds ok" or "it still
looks ok" or "I still beat the round") . . . You see, I may not be
willing to learn to improve or to do better -- or perfect my skills.

Then that begs the question, is it important to be perfect or aim to
be perfect? No one is perfect. But with this rationale, we're also
saying, let's just leave everything as it is -- let's not try to
improve or make better what we have. (This means, we don't need to go
to school -- why improve our head knowledge? This means don't practice
your guitar or piano -- why bother trying to get better? This means
just go to CS or Warcraft or CallofDuty matches without practicing. .
. . There is no need to improve the ministry or worship settings --
why bother aiming to be "perfect?")

I recall watching some commercials when I was like in second-fourth
grade . . . that says "knowledge is power." (<-- it was a promotion to
keep kids in school).
Is knowledge = power?

I think knowledge is power, but it can also kill you heart. When you
know so much, you can often hurt many people (b/c you're the "know it
all"). One can become arrogant or put down others' ideas because s/he
just "knows."

Then again, I often find myself humbled when I read a book (<-- gain
knowledge) because I realize I don't know much about this world. . .
though I feel humbled and recognize that there's so much more in life,
with the knowledge I have, I can correct, rebuke and "criticize"
someone and ultimately hurt them.

This is the same with professionals (professional athletes,
scientists, engineers, even professional pastors) . . . same with
those who have pressed deep into their education (like many of you
that have completed college or are going through college now) . . .
there are many that are not even educated, some in our midst that
can't even speak English well . . . but we have knowledge over them .
. . what do we do? (We ought to love them from where they are, as
Jesus took us from where we were).



Here's a good verse that I think all of us should keep, retain, and go
over frequently:
“We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love
builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as
he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God”
(1Corinthians 8:1-3).




For me, life is very confusing. I want to love God and I want to love
others. I want to live a life worthy of being called the disciple of
Jesus -- a lover of God, but I can't even figure out how I ought to
live my life!!!!


Though I still can't figure this one out, I think it all boils down to
our hearts. God is always looking at our hearts and seeking to develop
it . . . (so we need to look inside ourselves and determine the intent
of why we are criticizing/rebuking/correcting the other person). Is it
to look good? Is it because we look down on them? or is it because we
truly want that person to improve (or to prevent the person from
degrading life experience of others)? What is your heart condition?

Again, I encourage you to read "The Tale of Three Kings" -- I scanned
it, so let me know if anyone wants a copy (it's a short read -- just
an hour to read in one sitting). With my confused mind (someone
correct me if you have a different opinion), I think the right way to
handle the situation is see if the person wants to learn (is
teachable), and if s/he is willing to be corrected/taught, I ought to
speak out of love to teach them (When prophet Nathan rebuked King
David about adultery, David was teachable, and the rebuke was accepted
well - go check it out at 2Samuel 12). If they believe they are right
and do not want corrections or rebukes, the wise thing to do is to
stay quiet, look humble, and just grieve about the pain (go to God and
let Him know how I feel). (In their eyes, they are "kings," so we must
humbly bow. -- read the book to understand what I mean)


--------

My life's journey right now is for me to learn some humility. If
anyone wants to learn with me, let me know. Maybe we can have dinners
together every now and then (I'm thinking like once a month-three
months) to discuss how our journey has been. (I may send some reading
materials and ask for your feedback if you're serious about learning
humility -- and nota bene . . . I'm not the best teacher to learn
humility from . . . but we can try to walk through it together =)


So, let me end with this:

Are people with more knowledge more critical or more humble, or can
they be both?

Is knowledge important? Is power good?
or is it more important to work on our hearts, our character?

What do you guys think?

-Sang

[jan...@live.com]

Knowlege is power. Ignorance is bliss. Reminds me of adam and eve and their choice in eating the apple. By eating the apple they would gain knowlege which made them critical I think and not eating the apple would make them ignorant and humble. But I think eating the apple was a good thing because adam and eve loved God but the love you gain by hard work and struggling because of eating the apple would be greater in the end. I think people with more knowledge are critical and people with less knowledge are more humble but then by being critical and knowlegable, in the end a greater degree of humble will be gained. Well people can pass or fail I guess. I just woke up and got this email on my bb and it sounded fun. I don't know if anything I said made sense. Ahahaa.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

[Sang Sur]

John!!! That is some great insight!!! You should be teaching pastors . . .

Adam and Eve's eating of the fruit was God's plan to make us to be
people that are more humble and loving God at the end.

That's profound.

Man, you should be teaching me.

=)

Do well on your finals! Last stretch before you get to come back home
and get a month off to rest ~

-Sang

[codele...@yahoo.com]

I rushed through this post at work so sorry if it's a bit disjointed.

I think being knowlegeable (or very knowledgeable) naturally creates tendencies for one to appear critical or skeptical. It's not a bad thing, it just means that you have more information at your disposal to assess or frame a situation (to make optimal decisions), so the tendency to "compare" will always be there. It's how you choose to use your knowledge that gives you the characteristic of being critical or humble. So I think it's who you are or choose to be and the two labels are somewhat artificial and ties back to personality more than being knowlegeable.

I looked up the definition of the words "critical" and "humble", and to me, being humble basically means not to take yourself or what you know too seriously in the grand scheme of things. And being critical means that your lens of the world may be different than others. And that's OK as long as you can do something to improve on a situation--that's part of reflecting and growing, or, have the awareness to step away and acknowlege that we are not always empowered to change everything we come in contact with. To me, I think the key here is to be more critical of yourself than others (albeit difficult to practice). And hopefully that puts one in a better position to do more good than harm.

There is always the proverbial "agree to disagree" and still respect each other's position.

End of my rambling.

Ps: I also agree with many of the things John bought up.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Sang Sur <san...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:23:14
To: <gps4...@googlegroups.com>

[Sang Sur]

I knew it ~ I have so much to learn from each one of you!!! (Thanks,
Qi ~ very enlightening!)



So life is really about being critical of yourself and seeking to work
on yourself -- more than working to change or fix others.

That's what Jesus said to the Pharisees. That's what Jesus says to us
-- he's concerned about who we are -- our hearts, our character! (more
than the things we do, our titles, positions, statuses in life, our
knowledge, our skills/abilities, how much money we make, etc)

Are you guys excited to grow?

Let's go through this journey together and help each other along the way!

-Sang