ΠΛΑΤΩΝΟΣ ΑΡΟΛΟΓΙΑ ΣΩΚΡΑΤΟΥΣ - Plato's Apology of Socrates

[Faust]

Let's keep this gravy train a-movin'. Since this passage is a little
longer and comes from a book with accompanying footnotes, I'll post
those as well.

24b3-c3 - Against the Latter Charges

Preamble: Socrates has just finished the first part of his defense in
which he explains his method of philosophical inquiry and just why he
does what he does - because the god himself has asserted that he is in
fact the wisest of all men. In the following passage he now begins to
address some of the charges brought against him by Meletus and the
other accusers.

περὶ μὲν οὖν ὧν οἱ πρῶτοί μου κατήγοροι κατηγόρουν αὕτη ἔστω ἱκανὴ
ἀπολογία πρὸς ὑμᾶς: πρὸς δὲ Μέλητον τὸν ἀγαθὸν καὶ φιλόπολιν, ὥς φησι,
καὶ τοὺς ὑστέρους μετὰ ταῦτα πειράσομαι ἀπολογήσασθαι. αὖθις γὰρ δή,
ὥσπερ ἑτέρων τούτων ὄντων κατηγόρων, λάβωμεν αὖ τὴν τούτων ἀντωμοσίαν.
ἔχει δέ πως ὧδε: Σωκράτη φησὶν ἀδικεῖν τούς τε νέους διαφθείροντα καὶ
θεοὺς οὓς ἡ πόλις νομίζει οὐ νομίζοντα, ἕτερα δὲ δαιμόνια καινά. τὸ
μὲν δὴ ἔγκλημα τοιοῦτόν ἐστιν: τούτου δὲ τοῦ ἐγκλήματος ἓν ἕκαστον
ἐξετάσωμεν.

24b4, ἀπολογία - predicate, hence the omission of the article. It
should simply be noted that the word means "defense", not "apology".

24b5, φιλόπολις, -εως - "city-loving", "patriotic".

24b8, πως - Socrates does not claim to quote the exact words; likewise
also τοιοῦτόν in 24c2.

24b9, τούς τε νέους διαφθείροντα - both by undermining belief in the
gods and because he promoted amorality by "making wrong appear
right" (see Aristopanes' Clouds).

θεοὺς ... οὐ νομίζοντα - Really long footnote here. Suffice to say,
it appears that Socrates is referring to belief in existence, not
worship.

24c1, δαιμόνια - See above. "divine things", not necessarily "gods",
since later Socrates attempts to show that the two are not exactly the
same.

24c2, ἓν ἕκαστον, "each individual point".

[Thesaurus]

Thank you again for posting this.

Here is my attempt:

"Therefore, regarding those who were first accusing me, let this be a
sufficient reply to them: yet after this I will try to make a reply to
the good and patriotic Melitus, as he says, and to the following
accusers. For yet again let us take up their sworn oath, as if we were
one of these accusers. It goes in somewhat this way: he says that
Socrates wrongs and corrupts the youth, and he does not believe in the
existence of the gods that the city believes in, but in new divine
beings. This sort of thing is the accusation. I will attempt to
respond to each individual point of the accusation."

Questions:

What is the function of ὥς φησι when talking about Melitus? Is it
"patriotic and good (so he says)," or is it 'what he says are the
charges'?

[Faust]

> Questions:
>
> What is the function of ὥς φησι when talking about Melitus? Is it
> "patriotic and good (so he says)," or is it 'what he says are the
> charges'?

The former. The idea is, I think, that Meletus is doing the patriotic
thing by bringing Socrates to court since Socrates is seen as acting
contrary to the general good of his fellow Athenians. But in fact
Socrates is more φιλόπολις, in that he's attempting to bring the
Athenians and their institutions to a greater realization of the good.

[Faust]

Some practice for indirect speech (25d8-e4):

Here Socrates debates with Meletus concerning the charge that he is
guilty of corrupting the youth, specifically that he does so
willingly.

τί δῆτα, ὦ Μέλητε; τοσοῦτον σὺ ἐμοῦ σοφώτερος εἶ τηλικούτου ὄντος
τηλικόσδε ὤν, ὥστε σὺ μὲν ἔγνωκας ὅτι οἱ μὲν κακοὶ κακόν τι ἐργάζονται
ἀεὶ τοὺς μάλιστα πλησίον ἑαυτῶν, οἱ δὲ ἀγαθοὶ ἀγαθόν, ἐγὼ δὲ δὴ εἰς
τοσοῦτον ἀμαθίας ἥκω ὥστε καὶ τοῦτ᾽ ἀγνοῶ, ὅτι ἐάν τινα μοχθηρὸν
ποιήσω τῶν συνόντων, κινδυνεύσω κακόν τι λαβεῖν ὑπ᾽ αὐτοῦ, ὥστε τοῦτο
<τὸ> τοσοῦτον κακὸν ἑκὼν ποιῶ, ὡς φῂς σύ;

25d8, τοσοῦτον ... ὥστε - "so much (wiser) ... that" (correlative).

εἶ - 2nd person singular of ειμί.

τηλικοῦτος = τηλικόσδε - "such as this", ie. "(being) of such an age
as this". Meletus was, of course, considerably younger than Socrates,
the implication being that a younger man could hardly lay claim to
greater wisdom than an older man.

25d9, ὥστε + indicative denotes an actual result: "so that in
fact..." (while ὥστε + infinitive denotes a natural result).

σὺ μὲν - balanced by ἐγὼ δὲ in 25e1, with another μὲν ... δὲ contrast
intervening.

25d10, πλησίος -α -ον - "near" + gen.

25e1, εἰς τοσοῦτον ἀμαθίας ἥκω - "I have arrived at so great (a
degree) of folly", ἀμαθίας being a partitive genitive.

25e2, μοχθηρός -α -όν - "wretched", "laborious"; "bad", "evil".

25e3, ποιήσω - aorist subjunctive, not future.

ὑπ᾽ αὐτοῦ - "at his hands", "from him"; genitive of agent, since
λαβεῖν is virtually passive ("receive" = "be given").

[Nik Vital]

I don't know if it's my browser (Firefox) or what, but I see a bunch of blocks, except when the text is quoted. Anyone else have this problem?

2008/6/21 Faust <mega...@hotmail.com>:

[Faust]

I'm using Firefox too, and everything shows up fine. Have you tried
changing the character encoding to Unicode? In any case, I'm copying
and pasting these sections of the Apology from Perseus since it
matches the textbook I have, so you could still look them up there.

[Thesaurus]

"Certainly what, Melitus? Are you, being at such an age, so much wiser
than I am at this age, that you understood that bad people always do
bad things to those near themselves, but that good people always do
good for them? Yet, certainly, I come to such ignorance that I do not
understand this, that if I did something bad of those present, I will
run the risk of receiving something bad from this person, so that I do
this bad deed willingly, as you say?"

Why is "ἔγνωκας" in the perfect tense? Is it just because the act of
learning has already been completed?

Also, I thought the stickiest part was "οσοῦτον σὺ ἐμοῦ σοφώτερος εἶ
τηλικούτου ὄντος τηλικόσδε ὤν". In regards to "τηλικούτου ὄντος" is
this the genitive of respect in terms of the comparative "σοφώτερος"?
'So much wiser than me in regards to age'.

[Faust]

On Jun 22, 11:59 pm, Thesaurus <thesau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why is "ἔγνωκας" in the perfect tense? Is it just because the act of
> learning has already been completed?
>
> Also, I thought the stickiest part was "οσοῦτον σὺ ἐμοῦ σοφώτερος εἶ
> τηλικούτου ὄντος τηλικόσδε ὤν". In regards to "τηλικούτου ὄντος" is
> this the genitive of respect in terms of the comparative "σοφώτερος"?
> 'So much wiser than me in regards to age'.

1. ἔγνωκας is perfect because, as you guessed, the knowledge has
already been acquired. It's easier to notice the distinction if you
translate it as "have learned" rather "understood".

2. τηλικούτου is a genitive of comparison used with the comparative
adjective σοφώτερος, taken with the pronoun ἐμοῦ. Taken literally and
very liberally, the first part of the sentence might read, "Are you,
being at such an age as this, so much wiser than myself, being at such
an age as this, that you have learned that..."

What I neglected to include with the footnote is that Socrates is
using a rhetorical device called chiasm, where the participial phrases
τηλικούτου ὄντος and τηλικόσδε ὤν come in reverse order compared to
the personal pronouns σὺ and ἐμοῦ, creating an a-b-b-a structure. I
don't really understand it myself, so I didn't think to include it.