Revisiting Crimson Text

[Jacques Le Bailly]

This week I started working on Crimson Text, a Garamond inspired text typeface.

Crimson Text (CT) is a project from Sebastian Kosch. 

The last few days the Google team, Kosch and I have spoken on what could be done on CT. 

Here you can see a discussion on GitHub on CT. https://github.com/skosch/Crimson/issues/58#issuecomment-367182295

Since the last release, Kosch has been working on another version of Crimson, Crimson Prime (CP). (The outlines of the new CP are being used in Amiri on GF.)

CP is more sharp and somewhat smoother and it is according to Kosch developed as a more contemporary version of CT. 

We have discussed how the two versions relate to each other and where they differ. Would it be an option to develop CP as a standalone project or not ? Crucial is that they should differ enough in design and purpose.

On GitHub I made a list of issues I think are needed to take CT to the next level. We also agreed on making a much wider range of weights to enable CT to become a versatile and very usable typographic tool. With this amount of intended work in the back of our head, we discussed if it might also be an idea to take the best from both designs,  CT and CP, and merge them it into one strong authoritative family.

This is the first step I will undertake this week. I will work on the letters of the word Adhesion of Hamburgerfonts and make a deck where everything is compared and explained. This will give a good insight on the initial part of the development.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Crimson Text

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Crimson Prime

[Jacques Le Bailly]

This week I have been working on the draft for the new version of Crimson. In the link below you will find my deck (presentation) with a description of my draft.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1owMuJz3xwXSvB_3cevZcjniWFaS-iL4qgvqlYxiI7Pk/edit?usp=sharing

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Crimson Text is a font family for book production in the tradition of beautiful oldstyle Garamond-inspired typefaces. Crimson Text has been designed by Sebastian Kosch and released on Google Fonts more than six years ago. Since then, Sebastian Kosch has been working on a new version with the work name Crimson Prime. The two type families have a lot of similarities, and differences. Both type families have some technical issues. During the assessment and the discussion that followed, the question emerged whether the type families are diverse enough to be treated as two different ones.

We decided to make a Crimson Text update that synthesises both families and merges them into a final authoritative family. Contemporary, clear, classic and rounded/open. Something a good college textbook or conservative mainstream news paper would use.

In the sample of the draft I showed, the Italic was made like the original.

If we want to stay more true to the original Garamond, I would like to suggest some other solutions.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Somehow Sebastian tried to post a reaction, but it is still under review.

Here is a copy he send me.

======

Ah, I've been waiting for this like a kid for Christmas! Thank you Jacques, for the extensive drafts and for the thoughtful slides you put together for this mailing list.

I'll try to articulate my first impressions. Take them with a grain of salt as I obviously have some preconceptions.

*Regular:*

* I like the sturdier serifs (much needed for text sizes) and the opened-up counters. Overall I feel this is going in the right direction of more usability, especially on screen. The new balance in the glyph widths is quite satisfying.

* I'm not sure what to make of the more concave outside of the terminal serifs (e.g. top and bottom of /d). Intuitively I would have tried the opposite: straighter lines, sharper corners (more like Stempel Garamond, less like Hoefler Text). No right or wrong, just a matter of preference. Can you share your thoughts on this?

* After staring at it for a minute, I really like the new look of /a. I would consider adjusting it slightly in the direction of Prime's /a, by opening up and right-rotating the bowl a little.

* The opened counters are great, but I notice you rounded off the shoulders of /n and /h at the same time, compared to both CT and CP. To me, that's trading authority and stateliness for warmth – not a bad thing per se, but a noticeable departure from Crimson's current character, and one I'm skeptical about given the "newspapers and textbooks" audience. Was this choice inspired by anything specific?

* On the topic of open counters, do you think it might be a good idea at all to actually increase the x-height by just a smidgen, for legibility?

* The new /s makes me happy, and so does the grown-up comma! :)

*Bold:*

* Love it. Some of the same thoughts apply as for the Regular, but a huge step in the right direction as is.

* The punctuation deserves to be bigger, I agree ... maybe not quite as large though.

*Italic:*

* This is shaping up to be the italic I've always wanted. For a draft this is super promising.

* The new /s is particularly lovely.

* I like the simplicity of your first draft. The very explicit upstroke loop in your alternate version is a bit too much for my taste, although I do see that it helps balance the counterspace. What do others think?

* Again, I'm curious about the rounded-off shoulders of /h and /n.

* Perhaps another thing to try to add some calligraphic feel is to literally take the edge off the counterspace by slightly angling the feet of vertical stems, as in e.g. Lyon Text's italic.

Thanks again. Really excited to see where you'll take this!

Sebastian

[Jacques Le Bailly]

This afternoon (CET) I had a chat with Sebastian. Here is a copy.

Jacques Le Bailly: Hi Sebastian. Were you in a big shock ? :)

Sebastian Kosch: Hey Jacques, I wouldn't say a big shock

Overall I think this is absolutely going in the right direction

I replied to the google groups thread yesterday with detailed comments, but I just checked and it's still "under review"

I've sent you a copy

Jacques Le Bailly: I will look into it ! I am glad I did go in the right direction and you think it is ok.

Sebastian Kosch: Well at this stage the main thing is the balanced glyph widths and opened up counters

and those are great

:)

Jacques Le Bailly: I rounded up the shoulders of the /n etc, because I wanted to emphasize the horizontal direction and introduce a more explicit stroke

Somehow trying to give it a little angular feel, as if it was cut in metal

Sebastian Kosch: You mean the transition from curve to stem is more angular now?

Jacques Le Bailly: And, like you noticed quite well, I think warmth is definitely something I was looking for.

Yes

Sebastian Kosch: You know, looking at it now, having slept over it, I already like it a bit better

Jacques Le Bailly: I send you a screenshot. Background is original CT

Sebastian Kosch: ok

Jacques Le Bailly: I could soften it a little. I f you want

Sebastian Kosch: yeah maybe try pulling out the outside of the shoulder just a tiny bit, to thicken it?

Jacques Le Bailly: For all characters I was looking for a kind of repetition.

Or lowering the tangents (straight->curve) a little. This would make the stroke diving more into the stem, like in the original;

If more weight, a really tiny mini small bit :)

Sebastian Kosch: I think it may not be the straight->curve transition that's bothering me, but rather that the shoulder seems a bit thin and slouching now

but then again I may just be imagining things

a really tiny mini small bit may already be enough

Jacques Le Bailly: Let me make a quick try.

send you a mail

Don't know. Be the judge, but somehow more weight distracts me

Sebastian Kosch: can you do me a favour? send it to my gmail.

I think you're being graylisted for a few minutes by my mailserver and I don't want to wait

Jacques Le Bailly: sure

my email sometimes gets dumped in the trash :)

Sebastian Kosch: ahh got it

ok I see what you mean

hm. give me a minute

Jacques Le Bailly: Also look at the rhythm in upper half of the x height

Sebastian Kosch: hmm so I agree that your n looks better than the "corrected" one

and yet I can't shake the feeling that it looks a little weak next to the 'esio'

as in: compare the thickness of the /s spine or the bottom left of /e

with the shoulder of /n

Jacques Le Bailly: True. But that is something I will finetune in printing proofs. At the moment I did every thing on screen.

Sebastian Kosch: Okay. Then I won't bug you about it anymore :)

Jacques Le Bailly: And there another thing you should take in account. For example, you have a lot more white space around that part in the /e. This is kinda overruling the black. Therefore it needs to be a little heavier

Sebastian Kosch: Got it

Okay, a few other questions

Jacques Le Bailly: Sure

Sebastian Kosch: I like the wider /a a lot

but I'm surprised you shrunk the bowl

Jacques Le Bailly: It is larger than in CT

Sebastian Kosch: true.

what would it be like if it were as large as in CT? Is that too big?

Jacques Le Bailly: If Garalde typefaces are the inspiration, yes

We would have to enlarge the bwol of the /e as well

Sebastian Kosch: yeah I was going to say, it looks a bit older this way. Not a bad thing

I see

Jacques Le Bailly: I send you a quick sketch with the bowl of the /a more vertical like CP

Sebastian Kosch: thank you!

Maybe it's not the rotation of the bowl but the angle of the top of it?

Jacques Le Bailly: You mean it should be more steep ?

Sebastian Kosch: a little

?

Jacques Le Bailly: I could try that

Mail

Sebastian Kosch: thanks!

I do think that works a little better with the rest of the letters

of course maybe it's just what I'm used to

Jacques Le Bailly: I will keep it in. I will make my version a temporary alternate

Sebastian Kosch: okay

for the top of the /a

is it duplicated from /n?

Jacques Le Bailly: Inspired on

Sebastian Kosch: I like it

I'm not sure if it may be too big of a change

Jacques Le Bailly: CP is as big of a change IMHO

mail

Sebastian Kosch: thanks that's interesting to see!

yeah CP is a big change too

I don't know if this is about exploring different terminal shapes, or about the fact that the top has shifted left

Jacques Le Bailly: I will make a sketch

Sebastian Kosch: of all three /a's, yours looks the best

I'm not sure about how it works well with its neighbours

In CP, the contrast and angles and ball terminal all matched those of the other letters, so it was a pretty inconspicuous letter. Now suddenly /a has more character of its own, which I guess I'm not used to :)

Jacques Le Bailly: mail

I like putting character into characters :)

Sebastian Kosch: oh god no that looks weird. Keep yours. Haha

Jacques Le Bailly: It is not bad. But different

Have a fresh look in the afternoon

Sebastian Kosch: Maybe just like 10% in that direction

Sebastian Kosch: Did you have particular inspiration for the terminal?

Jacques Le Bailly: Euh

Tried to fit in yours :)

Sebastian Kosch: Hm maybe a somewhat more conservative terminal would help

as in, a bit more circular on the outside

Jacques Le Bailly: I don't agree, but I will make a sketch

Sebastian Kosch: please do, if only to convince me I'm wrong!

Jacques Le Bailly: Mail

Sebastian Kosch: You're right, that's not it either

Jacques Le Bailly: Maybe it is fine in the new context :)

We can always change if you still think it needs to be. I just started the project :)

Sebastian Kosch: Yeah maybe I should just let you do your thing for a few weeks

until everything plays well together

Jacques Le Bailly: By then you will used to it or not at all :)

Sebastian Kosch: yes :)

the other thing is that I'm only looking at a massively blown up screenshot. I'm sure it all looks different at text sizes

Jacques Le Bailly: true

I will reduce the punctuation in the Bold a little. I think you are right there

Sebastian Kosch: ok

the italics are nice

looking at it now I think they are perhaps friendlier than they need to be

Jacques Le Bailly: I need to find a way how to bring back weight into the left lower stroke of the /n, now you don't think the calligraphic solution is less fitting.

Sebastian Kosch: what if you started the upstroke at a lower point?

Jacques Le Bailly: And I would like to have a stroke on the right upper corner of the /a. Like in my alternate, but less like a knot

I think it would make it optically even thinner

Sebastian Kosch: make what thinner?

Jacques Le Bailly: left lower stroke of the /n

Sebastian Kosch: the diagonal or the vertical?

Jacques Le Bailly: Vertical. Because now you have a small straight stroke. If you would shorten this, the inktrap would also be lower. The triangular shape would be like an optical wedge

Sebastian Kosch: I think you're going to have to show me what you mean

Jacques Le Bailly: OK

Sebastian Kosch: is slightly angling the bottom of the vertical stem an option?

Jacques Le Bailly: mail

Sebastian Kosch: I like that

the /n is great

I have no strong opinion on the vertical of /a

the second and third are both fine

Jacques Le Bailly: I am not sure about the /n yet. I would have make it wider. The counter is now a lot smaller

Sebastian Kosch: Again, what happens if you angle the bottom of the vertical stem a little?

to open up the counter

Jacques Le Bailly: Bottom corner more to the right ?

Sebastian Kosch: uhm

email!

Jacques Le Bailly: mail

That would have a lot of effect on many other characters

Sebastian Kosch: I see

Jacques Le Bailly: And make it less sturdy

Sebastian Kosch: less sturdy, but a bit more elegant

Jacques Le Bailly: I will have to think about that. Because you will loose a lot of weight

Jacques Le Bailly: And make it a lot more calligraphic

Sebastian Kosch: Personally I tend towards sharp angled corners at the expense of friendliness. That's just a personal preference though

I see what you mean

Jacques Le Bailly: I could take make the top serifs d/h a little straighter

Sebastian Kosch: I think that might be a good idea

Jacques Le Bailly: I will do that in the next round

Actually, the corners/strokes in the alternate Italics are angled ! If you want to see how it works

Sebastian Kosch: but angled the other way

more like a felt pen, less like a broad-nib. Or do you mean something else

Jacques Le Bailly: True... :)

mail

not sure...

Maybe...

Sebastian Kosch: I like that a lot. Again, personally I would go easier on the rounded corners

for a more authoritative look (newspapers and textbooks, remember)

but that's just me

do you think the counter of /n is still too small?

Jacques Le Bailly: No, because I already opened it up :)

I will also have a look at the roundness/sharpness in the next round

Sebastian Kosch: perfect

Jacques Le Bailly: How the Bold Italic will behave is important as well. I didn't get that yet. I just wanted to show you and Dave what direction I was aiming at

Sebastian Kosch: True, makes sense

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I had a chat with Sebastian Kosch. He suggested we should investigate if it would be possible to make my draft less rounded.

This might enhance the authoritative look and feel of the typeface. 

I made a “experiment” of the Roman weight. Notice that the serif now have sharp corners and flat ends.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I continued the experiment I started yesterday and implemented it on the Bold and Italic. I made some small changes to the Roman. Some round strokes were a little angular, so I now made slightly rounder and steeper.

This has been added to the presentation:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1owMuJz3xwXSvB_3cevZcjniWFaS-iL4qgvqlYxiI7Pk/edit?usp=sharing

I added several slides where I am comparing the new Crimson to fonts from the Google Fonts Library with similar influences and inspirations.

[Sebastian Kosch]

Ah, I've been waiting for this like a kid for Christmas! Thank you Jacques, for the extensive drafts and for the thoughtful slides you put together for this mailing list.

I'll try to articulate my first impressions. Take them with a grain of salt as I obviously have some preconceptions.

Regular:

* I like the sturdier serifs (much needed for text sizes) and the opened-up counters. Overall I feel this is going in the right direction of more usability, especially on screen. The new balance in the glyph widths is quite satisfying.

* I'm not sure what to make of the more concave outside of the terminal serifs (e.g. top and bottom of /d). Intuitively I would have tried the opposite: straighter lines, sharper corners (more like Stempel Garamond, less like Hoefler Text). No right or wrong, just a matter of preference. Can you share your thoughts on this?

* After staring at it for a minute, I really like the new look of /a. I would consider adjusting it slightly in the direction of Prime's /a, by opening up and right-rotating the bowl a little.

* The opened counters are great, but I notice you rounded off the shoulders of /n and /h at the same time, compared to both CT and CP. To me, that's trading authority and stateliness for warmth – not a bad thing per se, but a noticeable departure from Crimson's current character, and one I'm skeptical about given the "newspapers and textbooks" audience. Was this choice inspired by anything specific?

* On the topic of open counters, do you think it might be a good idea at all to actually increase the x-height by just a smidgen, for legibility?

* The new /s makes me happy, and so does the grown-up comma!

Bold:

* Love it. Some of the same thoughts apply as for the Regular, but a huge step in the right direction as is.

* The punctuation deserves to be bigger, I agree ... maybe not quite as large though.

Italic:

* This is shaping up to be the italic I've always wanted. For a draft this is super promising.

* The new /s is particularly lovely.

* I like the simplicity of your first draft. The very explicit upstroke loop in your alternate version is a bit too much for my taste, although I do see that it helps balance the counterspace. What do others think?

* Again, I'm curious about the rounded-off shoulders of /h and /n.

* Perhaps another thing to try to add some calligraphic feel is to literally take the edge off the counterspace by slightly angling the feet of vertical stems, as in e.g. Lyon Text's italic.

Thanks again. Really excited to see where you'll take this!

Sebastian

[Thomas Linard]

Thanks for the presentation, Jacques, very useful!

[Jacques Le Bailly]

You are welcome, Thomas !

Op woensdag 21 maart 2018 11:22:57 UTC+1 schreef Thomas Linard:

[Jacques Le Bailly]

The past few days we have discussed my draft and compared it to the original Crimson Text, Crimson Prime and several existing Google Fonts. 

My draft was well received and we decided to continue with it as a project. Like a family member of Crimson Text. 

Afterwards we will take the original Crimson Text and revise it much more subtle. Like re-spacing, kerning and small touch ups to glaring errors.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Dave posted a remark in my presentation deck on the weight of the tail of the lowercase /a. It looks close to Spectral, when compared. 

I made some corrections on the tail of the /a. Notice I have made the lowercase /e a tick wider (not sure yet). These are small steps to see what works best.

The corrected version compared to the last draft.

The corrected version compared to Spectral.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Here is a screenshot of more glyphs I have been working on.

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

Nice

The extra verve in the a tail seems like l kind of transitional almost, and like the curve in the spine of the comma could also now be more round... 

Maybe the a teardrop in regular weight could the rounder still, it's quite nice to have the high contrast form in the ExtraBold, a nonlinear interpolation with a brace/bracket glyphsapp layer?

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 6:29 AM Jacques Le Bailly <fonth...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a screenshot of more glyphs I have been working on.

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[Jacques Le Bailly]

The extra verve in the a tail seems like l kind of transitional almost, and like the curve in the spine of the comma could also now be more round... 

You would prefer to have the tail more flat ? The problem I encountered is when taking weight away the glyph looks out of balance. I will have a second look and think about. I also tried a flat serif like in the /d, but that didn't look good.

The comma hasn't been corrected indeed. 

 

Maybe the a teardrop in regular weight could the rounder still, it's quite nice to have the high contrast form in the ExtraBold, a nonlinear interpolation with a brace/bracket glyphsapp layer?

You mean making the drop rounder ? Or the transition on the inside (left) from drop to stroke a little heavier ?

a nonlinear interpolation with a brace/bracket glyphsapp layer?

 Probably yes. But that is something I wanted to tackle further up the process.

 

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 8:07 AM Jacques Le Bailly <fonth...@gmail.com> wrote:

The extra verve in the a tail seems like l kind of transitional almost, and like the curve in the spine of the comma could also now be more round... 

You would prefer to have the tail more flat ? The problem I encountered is when taking weight away the glyph looks out of balance. I will have a second look and think about. I also tried a flat serif like in the /d, but that didn't look good.

No I think it's good :)

The comma hasn't been corrected indeed. 

:D

 

Maybe the a teardrop in regular weight could the rounder still, it's quite nice to have the high contrast form in the ExtraBold, a nonlinear interpolation with a brace/bracket glyphsapp layer?

You mean making the drop rounder ? Or the transition on the inside (left) from drop to stroke a little heavier ?

Both, but it's surely a balance and subtle. It's just feeling a little bit crunchy right now... And I think part of what makes the rest of the design more traditional and warm (like old slippers as Gerard Unger would say ;) is the roundness. Eg eb garamond has almost no corner points, it's so extreme. 

a nonlinear interpolation with a brace/bracket glyphsapp layer?

 Probably yes. But that is something I wanted to tackle further up the process.

Sure, but for now of the regular is more round in the teardrop than the extra bold, it's ok for me :)

[Jacques Le Bailly]

No I think it's good :)

:)

Maybe the a teardrop in regular weight could the rounder still, it's quite nice to have the high contrast form in the ExtraBold, a nonlinear interpolation with a brace/bracket glyphsapp layer?

You mean making the drop rounder ? Or the transition on the inside (left) from drop to stroke a little heavier ?

Both, but it's surely a balance and subtle. It's just feeling a little bit crunchy right now... And I think part of what makes the rest of the design more traditional and warm (like old slippers as Gerard Unger would say ;) is the roundness. Eg eb garamond has almost no corner points, it's so extreme. 

I made some small changes. Maybe it is more in your direction. In the screenshot you can see different instances. Second and fifth are the masters, first and last extrapolated (300 and 800).

[Sebastian Kosch]

Nice! I do like the thin-ness of the /a tail – not sure about the raised-pinky way it curves up though. Dave is right, it makes it look more transitional and especially with the crunchy terminal it doesn't feel like old slippers anymore. (On its own it's gorgeous, as part of Crimson I'm skeptical.)

The wider /e is probably a good idea, though I would find it easier to judge if it didn't cosy up against the /s in your sample; could you play with the sidebearings to move it a bit closer to /h for now? Maybe this is an opportunity to re-think the other round counters as well: /p looks quite wide compared to /c, for instance.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Op 23 mrt. 2018, om 14:37 heeft 'Sebastian Kosch' via Google Fonts Discussions <googlefon...@googlegroups.com> het volgende geschreven:

Nice! I do like the thin-ness of the /a tail – not sure about the raised-pinky way it curves up though. Dave is right, it makes it look more transitional and especially with the crunchy terminal it doesn't feel like old slippers anymore. (On its own it's gorgeous, as part of Crimson I'm skeptical.)

The wider /e is probably a good idea, though I would find it easier to judge if it didn't cosy up against the /s in your sample; could you play with the sidebearings to move it a bit closer to /h for now? Maybe this is an opportunity to re-think the other round counters as well: /p looks quite wide compared to /c, for instance.

On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 8:31:03 AM UTC-4, Jacques Le Bailly wrote:

No I think it's good :)

:)

I will leave the tail of the /a as it is at the moment. We can into details, but I would prefer to concentrate on the bigger picture at the moment. Widths and spacing will probably change. No I think that spacing is globally too narrow. I first want to have enough glyphs to set some text and test it. And print it. Until now everything is being done on screen. 

/s looks look too narrow. 

Counter /p could be a few units more narrow. Now it is ≈ counter /d.

/e could be a few units more narrow.

/c a few units wider.

Etc.

[Sebastian Kosch]

On 2018-03-23 09:49 AM, Jacques Le Bailly wrote:
>
>
>> Op 23 mrt. 2018, om 14:37 heeft 'Sebastian Kosch' via Google Fonts
>> Discussions <googlefon...@googlegroups.com

>> <mailto:googlefon...@googlegroups.com>> het volgende geschreven:

>>
>> Nice! I do like the thin-ness of the /a tail – not sure about the
>> raised-pinky way it curves up though. Dave is right, it makes it look
>> more transitional and especially with the crunchy terminal it doesn't
>> feel like old slippers anymore. (On its own it's gorgeous, as part of
>> Crimson I'm skeptical.)
>>
>> The wider /e is probably a good idea, though I would find it easier to
>> judge if it didn't cosy up against the /s in your sample; could you
>> play with the sidebearings to move it a bit closer to /h for now?
>> Maybe this is an opportunity to re-think the other round counters as
>> well: /p looks quite wide compared to /c, for instance.
>>
>> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 8:31:03 AM UTC-4, Jacques Le Bailly wrote:
>>
>>> No I think it's good :)
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>
> I will leave the tail of the /a as it is at the moment. We can into
> details, but I would prefer to concentrate on the bigger picture at the
> moment. Widths and spacing will probably change. No I think that spacing
> is globally too narrow. I first want to have enough glyphs to set some
> text and test it. And print it. Until now everything is being done on
> screen.

Makes sense. No rush.

> /s looks look too narrow.
> Counter /p could be a few units more narrow. Now it is ≈ counter /d.
> /e could be a few units more narrow.
> /c a few units wider.
> Etc.

Agree with all of the above :)

>
>
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[Jacques Le Bailly]

I have been fine tuning some of the glyphs. I couldn’t let go the quest :) for a good tail for the /a.

In the screenshots you will find an alternate form (bottom) for the tail. To be honest, I think it could be a serious solution.

Notice, I have softened the drops on the /a and /c.

[Sebastian Kosch]

If I had to chose I'd take the first. Is there are particular reason it can't just be a standard issue tail though? Curvaceous like the first, down-to-earth like the second? (Sorry for the terrible drawing, it's from an auto-trace off of your screenshot)

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[Jacques Le Bailly]

I do not oppose to a standard tail. But we wanted to loose weight or make it more distinguishable. Your solution is even more like Spectral as my original one. And it might clog in the heavy weights.

I will have a fresh look in the morning. What I like about my last proposal is that it uses a solution/serif that is already there. Kinda “simplifying" the whole. This less obstructive for the eyes while reading.

> Op 23 mrt. 2018, om 23:51 heeft 'Sebastian Kosch' via Google Fonts Discussions <googlefon...@googlegroups.com> het volgende geschreven:
>
> If I had to chose I'd take the first. Is there are particular reason it can't just be a standard issue tail though? Curvaceous like the first, down-to-earth like the second? (Sorry for the terrible drawing, it's from an auto-trace off of your screenshot)

> <agdipdgelgfjdfii.png>
>

[Sebastian Kosch]

On 2018-03-23 07:00 PM, Jacques Le Bailly wrote:
> I do not oppose to a standard tail. But we wanted to loose weight or make it more distinguishable. Your solution is even more like Spectral as my original one. And it might clog in the heavy weights.

You're right, looking at my screen from three feet away, the second row
really is easier on the eyes. But are the sharp corner and the concavity
really necessary?

As for making it more distinguishable from Spectral:

Crimson's original raison d'être – and I should have explained this, mea
culpa! – was to fill a gap in the libre font universe: I needed an
understated serif with the straight-shooting confidence of Times and the
old-style authenticity of Garamond (and not a clone of either
obviously). A serif that, like Minion or Mercury or Tiempos or Lyon, had
an "upper class" skeleton but was very restrained on the surface. That's
why I instinctively tend to push back against new features that have too
much personality. Spectral on the other hand is very openly quirky and
frankly I really don't see much competition between the two.

Then again, often enough my intuition is wrong about what matters at
text sizes, so I don't mind getting overruled :)

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi Sebastian,

Today I got the chance to work on a version of the tail like you suggested. I rounded the sharp edge at the bottom.

You're right, looking at my screen from three feet away, the second row really is easier on the eyes. But are the sharp corner and the concavity really necessary?

Personally I do not have a problem with the sharp edge. I also like the way it flows out of the stem.

[Sebastian Kosch]

Thank you Jacques!

So I think it's clear we don't want #1, and I'm actually warming up to the look of #3 – it works well in the context of a whole line of text.

What I like about #2 is both that it doesn't call too much attention to itself and that it doesn't, like the sharp corner of #3, look like a heel that it's pushing off the ground with.

Do you think there's room for compromise between the two?

(Also, those other letters are really coming together. Exciting!)

[Thomas Linard]

Hi,

In my opinion, this #2 is, so far, the less stranger to the shapes and angles of the other letters.

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 2:22:35 PM UTC+2, Sebastian Kosch wrote:

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I will keep the sharp edge /a to work with. Let us make another assessment in a printing proof, so we can see how it behaves in smaller sizes (≥12 pt). #2 will be added as alternate in the proof.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I continued working on the lowercase. Here are some images.

[Dave Crossland]

Looks great to me, I also preferred 'a' #2 but if that's kept as an alt for now then that's fine :)

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 6:13 PM Jacques Le Bailly <fonth...@baronvonfonthausen.com> wrote:

I continued working on the lowercase. Here are some images.

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[Jacques Le Bailly]

Same proof with alternate /a

Op 28 mrt. 2018, om 00:32 heeft Dave Crossland <da...@lab6.com> het volgende geschreven:

Looks great to me, I also preferred 'a' #2 but if that's kept as an alt for now then that's fine :)

[Sebastian Kosch]

Nice progress :) I really enjoy the balance in the widths. This is going to be great for body text!

Would you be willing to try and open /r up a bit, so it doesn't look like its neighbour is squeezing it? Something like this:

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[Jacques Le Bailly]

Something went wrong with your image :)

For the /r. I am not fully satisfied yet. It is the first draft :)

[Sebastian Kosch]

Ah, I was just being silly, this was the image:
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/woman-tilting-her-head-lifting-her-chin-young-looking-camera-seriously-captured-studio-gray-background-52567644.jpg

I would try starting the arm lower (lower than the arch of /n) and
rotating the current terminal counter-clockwise until its "tooth" is
pointing straight down.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I will have a look at it tomorrow. Maybe I will also make an alternate with a very horizontal stroke.

[Sebastian Kosch]

Okay :) The /r can probably be a tad wider too?

Also, looking at the top of /t, maybe it's just me, but I'm not a huge
fan of my solution in Crimson Text v1. Do you think it works? If you
want to keep this shape, maybe a less pointy version would fit better
(look at Freight Text to see what I mean)? Just ideas ...

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Yeah, uhm. I shouldn’t have used the /t. :) It is yours. I haven’t done anything to it yet :)

Typ-O :)

J

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I must apologize for not posting the last few days. The reason for this is that I tried to tackle some of the characters that can be tricky. Like the /f/g/k/r. This is the lastert version. Off course I am not satisfied yet :) but it is going in the right direction.

The more I am working with this type face, the more I am compelled to try to simplify as much as possible to counter any possible optical cluttering and rhythm distortion. The strokes are powerful on their own, so let them speak. :)

I made alternate versions of the characters /a/b/f/j/k/r.

— The /a is now the preferred version with a rounded ending stroke at the bottom.
— The /b comes with and without small serif in the bottom left corner.
— For the /f I am testing if a narrow version might be strong enough to do the job.
— The /j comes with and without end flare.
— In the /k I am testing if the upper angled stroke needs tapering.
— For the /r I have doubts about the original deep connecting stroke. So I made a /r with a “simplified” and more horizontal flag.

Have a look. I am curious what you prefer. I have my favorites :)

I added jpg’s of the PDF I send along. In the PDF you can zoom in and see it at high resolution. In the last pages in made some text-samples with increased spacing (+5 and +10 units in InDesign) to see if the spacing needs to be changed. Until now I am still using the unitizer plugin. If the spacing is too narrow, I will change the units in unitizer. This could have some effect on the width of some characters.

[Dave Crossland]

Thank you Jacques! It is a lot to look at. I'll try to post comments this week

[Jacques Le Bailly]

> Thank you Jacques! It is a lot to look at. I'll try to post comments this week

That would be very nice ! I will continue in a steady pace :)

[Sebastian Kosch]

Thank you Jacques! That's a lot of progress, amazing.

First off, I really love the look of the bold. It looks nice and meaty but somehow it doesn't suffer from the wonkiness it used to have. Impressive work!

/f and /k and /r are such tricky letters. I understand they're still a work in progress but here are my first thoughts (suggestions in green below). I hope I'm not making your life too difficult with all my meddling.

/f -- after much back and forth I had settled on a Sabon-style "short f" for Crimson Prime. That eliminated the need for ligatures and worked out quite well overall. I think it's a solution worth keeping, but it's a balancing act for sure. The flared stems (which I'm still undecided about) in particular make a heavier head a necessity, in my opinion. That being said I'm completely open to going back to a standard old-style /f.

/k -- that horizontal spacer bar is a pretty serious departure from Crimson's /k, and pretty much from all other contemporaneous references. I'm curious about your reasoning for this. How do folks feel about a straight-legged version without serifs on the lower leg, closer to CP's /k?

/r -- I see merit in both your /r's. Why not compromise between the two for something closer to both CT and CP?

/g -- I would suggest adjusting the right-side extrema of the lower loop a little for a slightly more even look.

/t -- Unsure. Would love input from others.

/j -- Strongly in favour of the non-curly one.

/b -- I like the bowl design of the one with the tail, and the simplicity of the one without. Can we have both? (Not a strong opinion on this one really, just throwing this out there)

Sebastian

[Dave Crossland]

Some initial thoughts: 

page 2 + 3: The temp alts are generally agreeable as relegated to 2nd place. I don't like the spurred 'b'. I like the idea of having a Sabon-like non-kerned 'f'. The 'k' looks much closer/similar than the others (the flaring on the upper arm is subtle) so I'm not sure its worth keeping around unless it part of a series of alts that are all more 'conservative' and perhaps it pairs with the 'f' in that way; I think the alt 'r' would be better as default in the regular weight, but I think in the Bold master the current choice is best; this 'switch over' can be managed with a brace layer :)

Page 4, the earliness of the design becomes clear, eg the 'c' and 'e' are much heavier overall than the 'b' or 'm' (although perhaps 'm' spacing is too wide...) But overall this shows a lot of promise! 

Page 14, the bold 'k' alt seems a little weak/airy on top. 

[Dave Crossland]

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 12:17 AM, 'Sebastian Kosch' via Google Fonts Discussions <googlefon...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

/r -- I see merit in both your /r's. Why not compromise between the two for something closer to both CT and CP?

I think its best not to compromise :) I am curious what you think about my idea to use the fuller 'r' in Bold and the straighter one in Regular masters? :) 

[Sebastian Kosch]

I'd agree with that. The current bold /r looks pretty good to me already and in the Regular I would also want a straighter one. Though not quite as straight as the proposal -- that one's almost straighter than PT Serif's and that, to me, is once again endangering the warm slippers feeling. All I ask is that the arm start a bit lower :)

Also, could you clarify what you mean by "The 'k' looks much closer/similar than the others (the flaring on the upper arm is subtle) so I'm not sure its worth keeping around" -- which k are you talking about?

[Dave Crossland]

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 12:34 AM, 'Sebastian Kosch' via Google Fonts Discussions <googlefon...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I'd agree with that. The current bold /r looks pretty good to me already and in the Regular I would also want a straighter one. Though not quite as straight as the proposal -- that one's almost straighter than PT Serif's and that, to me, is once again endangering the warm slippers feeling. All I ask is that the arm start a bit lower :)

Cool!

 

Also, could you clarify what you mean by "The 'k' looks much closer/similar than the others (the flaring on the upper arm is subtle) so I'm not sure its worth keeping around" -- which k are you talking about?

 I mean that between the default and 'temp alts', there is usually a large difference, but for the 'k' the difference is much less, so I think that 'temp alt' can be more temporary than the others ;)

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I have a lot to think about :)
Let me try to incorporate your ideas and see hom it works out.

I should have been more specific, but the temporary alternates are not meant as stylistic alternates for in the endproduct. It is to show possible solutions :) If we think one is worthy of making it as .ss01 I would be the last to oppose to it :)

[Jacques Le Bailly]

page 2 + 3: The temp alts are generally agreeable as relegated to 2nd place. I don't like the spurred 'b'. I like the idea of having a Sabon-like non-kerned 'f'. The 'k' looks much closer/similar than the others (the flaring on the upper arm is subtle) so I'm not sure its worth keeping around unless it part of a series of alts that are all more 'conservative' and perhaps it pairs with the 'f' in that way; I think the alt 'r' would be better as default in the regular weight, but I think in the Bold master the current choice is best; this 'switch over' can be managed with a brace layer :)

I have made corrections in the /r. I added a brace layer. Actually I made two versions. One is more flowing and the second has a break/switch at the Regular weight (500). I prefer the second.

Note, I actually liked the original alternate /r with the flat flags in all weights.

[Sebastian Kosch]

I remain skeptical. What's the rationale for making the flag so flat? It leaves a square-looking counterspace underneath that is an anachronism to the old-style warmth of the rest of the design, in my opinion. Especially compared to the terminals of /a and /c which actually curl inwards more than those in most other fonts.

A comparison with other old-style /r's on my computer:

That being said if there's a practical benefit I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.

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[Sebastian Kosch]

To be clear I like the flat terminal, and my proposal from last night was probably a bit too much of a good thing. I just think the arm can start lower:

On 2018-04-04 08:54 AM, Jacques Le Bailly wrote:

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[Jacques Le Bailly]

I think I am less hung up the old-style as you. I want to make it as clutter free as possible. Because the angle of the upper stroke in the /r is different to /n/m/b etc. (and even the drop on the /a), it changes the rhythm in the upper half of the lowercase. When reading, this is a moment your eyes pause. This is something I wouldn’t do. The clear structure and the open counter of the /r is distinctive enough to recognize the character. The flat flag feels more fitting in the global rhythm IMHO.

> I remain skeptical. What's the rationale for making the flag so flat? It leaves a square-looking counterspace underneath that is an anachronism to the old-style warmth of the rest of the design, in my opinion. Especially compared to the terminals of /a and /c which actually curl inwards more than those in most other fonts.
> A comparison with other old-style /r's on my computer:

> <anahobhjjdendagm.png>

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I will make an illustration to show you what I mean. I am about to eat dinner and go to training :)

[Sebastian Kosch]

Thanks Jacques!

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi Sebastian

Thanks Jacques!

I will make an illustration to show you what I mean. I am about to eat dinner and go to training :)

I hope this will shed some light on how I see it.

Here is quick sketch where I added pink lines to explain about the rhythm changes the old style /r is creating IMHO, against the version with the flat flag.

Here I cut down the lower half of the lowercase. You can see the old style /r stands out.

In this screenshot I copied the counter of the /n on top of both /r’s. 

[Sebastian Kosch]

Wow, thanks for going to such lengths to make those illustrations :)

I'm 100% in agreement that the top-row /r is problematic. That's because
of its extreme curvature, though, not because of the angle at which it
joins the stem. It's so tightly curved that the spatial frequency is
almost double that of other letters.

The argument that parallel pink lines should supersede all other
considerations seems spurious to me, or at least arbitrary. One could
also argue that the top left quadrant of any given glyph is highly
visually salient and that difference from its neighbours is a good thing
– I mean, there's a good reason /n's have a top-left serifs even though
a simple Ո shape would technically be enough and do much better on the
pink-line metric.

Would you be willing to give the flat-terminal-low-armpit version a try,
and compare it a text setting?

On 2018-04-04 05:29 PM, Jacques Le Bailly wrote:
> Hi Sebastian
>
>> Thanks Jacques!
>>> I will make an illustration to show you what I mean. I am about to
>>> eat dinner and go to training :)
>
> I hope this will shed some light on how I see it.
>
> Here is quick sketch where I added pink lines to explain about the
> rhythm changes the old style /r is creating IMHO, against the version
> with the flat flag.
>
>

> Here I cut down the lower half of the lowercase. You can see the old
> style /r stands out.
>
>

> In this screenshot I copied the counter of the /n on top of both /r’s.
>
>

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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/googlefonts-discuss/38FF2363-7775-473A-A1D7-598A416E4807%40baronvonfonthausen.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

>
> Would you be willing to give the flat-terminal-low-armpit version a try, and compare it a text setting?

I will make a version tomorrow in the morning.

[Sebastian Kosch]

It is late over there, no rush. Thank you for indulging me!

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I made an alternate version of the /r with an lower armpit. This is how the interpolations would look like.

Would you be willing to give the flat-terminal-low-armpit version a try, and compare it a text setting?

I will make a version tomorrow in the morning.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Today I worked an all characters I already had. Some were only slightly fine-tuned, others were changed according Dave’s and Sebastian’s remarks.

Overall the spacing has been reviewed.
Some characters were made lighter (Thanks Dave :) )

/k
The /k was altered to fit better the old style look by making the bridge not straight horizontal anymore and taking away one of the serifs on the outgoing angled bottom stroke. I also made another solution by completely stripping off the serifs, But I think it is less strong than with a serif.

/r
The new /r has a flat flag in the Regular which becomes a more hanging one in the Bold. I made another solution which embodies Sebastian’s remarks on making the flag less flat. I lowered the armpit. So Regular and Bold have a flat flag with lowered armpits.

The jpeg’s are exported pages of the PDF.

[Sebastian Kosch]

That looks a bit more natural in my opinion. (In fact, personally I would go a tad lower even, in the thin and regular weight.)

You said you liked the flat flag better than the curly one throughout, right? So no brace layer for the bolder weights? Just curious what you think.

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I could go a tad lower in the Regular, so it matches optically the angle of the /n more, indeed. Th Light is now extrapolated :)
This is my preferred solution. I wouldn't do the curly Bold solution.

> Op 6 apr. 2018, om 00:03 heeft 'Sebastian Kosch' via Google Fonts Discussions <googlefon...@googlegroups.com> het volgende geschreven:
>
> That looks a bit more natural in my opinion. (In fact, personally I would go a tad lower even, in the thin and regular weight.)
>
> You said you liked the flat flag better than the curly one throughout, right? So no brace layer for the bolder weights? Just curious what you think.
>

[Sebastian Kosch]

Wow! Those slides are gorgeous. :)  I love it. This is so promising :)

Letters that jump out at me in the text:

/f -- it's little head looks sad.

/t -- could you make some alternates? I don't know what to do with it. Maybe a straight CP-style crossing? Hmmm ...

/g -- lower loop is still a bit weak and/or slanted, I think

/c -- curled in a little too far, dangerously close to looking cutesy – could be opened up a little?

/q -- very pointy serif tip

It's a pity the serif-less /k looks a bit weak, because I love the shape of it. But I do agree with you that the serifed version is stronger. Maybe keep it around as an alternate for now?

Also if you won't do the curly bold /r, which is fine by me, perhaps the terminal of the bold /r could have a tiny bit more volume? Not sure.

Thanks again, this is great progress!

Sebastian

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Thanks for your remarks. I will have a look. But tomorrow I will concentrate on continuing the rest of the characters, before we get stuck on a lot of small details. When I have finished a-z and A-Z, I will make a print proof and see where to put more weight, more/less curls and details etc.

[Sebastian Kosch]

Sounds good!

[Jacques Le Bailly]

> Sounds good!
>
> On 2018-04-05 06:29 PM, Jacques Le Bailly wrote:
>> Thanks for your remarks. I will have a look. But tomorrow I will concentrate on continuing the rest of the characters, before we get stuck on a lot of small details. When I have finished a-z and A-Z, I will make a print proof and see where to put more weight, more/less curls and details etc.

Well, I did actually work on the existing characters :) Couldn’t let it go.
And I did more.

There was something that bugged me a little on most characters. The tapering in the strokes, where the stroke meets the serifs, was too disturbing. So I toned it down a little. It is still there, but now it is more functional (optically) and less cloggy.

Please have a look and tell what you think.

[Sebastian Kosch]

Aye, very much in favour of reduced flaring. Looks significantly cleaner now in my opinion.

I can't help but obsess about details ... made some rough sketches with ideas.

Feel free to ignore until later, I know you want to finish the alphabet first :)

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Thanks for your remarks. But overall I think they feel a little too soft… Some level of harshness is nice.

> Op 7 apr. 2018, om 00:18 heeft 'Sebastian Kosch' via Google Fonts Discussions <googlefon...@googlegroups.com> het volgende geschreven:
>
> Aye, very much in favour of reduced flaring. Looks significantly cleaner now in my opinion.
>
> I can't help but obsess about details ... made some rough sketches with ideas.
>
> Feel free to ignore until later, I know you want to finish the alphabet first :)

> <fgjmjomjbdahhofe.png>
>

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Food for thoughts :)

I took the liberty of doing some late night sketching. Here is an experiment with alternate forms for the /c/f/r. Roughly done :)

[Sebastian Kosch]

Okay. Of course this is your project now and not mine! :) I'm not at all opposed to some degree of bite, however to me /c currently looks more cute than harsh and the top arch of /a feels very broad-nib-by compared to the relatively low-contrast arch of /n. I don't dislike their looks but they do jump out to me in text.

As for the other letters, I'm just experimenting. The /f's head would be a good opportunity for a bit more harshness, for example :) The straight-cross /t you made is a great improvement in my opinion.

[Sebastian Kosch]

Man, how are you so fast? I have to say it's a neat idea but not my thing, personally. One thing I do notice though is that it makes /r and /f look better at really small sizes. Maybe we want to give the /r and /f terminals just a tad more downcurl to help with that?

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi all.

This week I have been working on finishing the first draft of the lowercase and a large part of the uppercase.

Last week, Sebastian and I have had a discussion on the drops, curls and serifed endings of some the characters. I made a new attempt which is very much to my liking. I abstracted the original drop to a more modern form. It still has the old style connotation, but fits better into the global feel and rhythm. I am curious how you all feel about it :) I might have to change the lowercase /r again, but that is something I will take on in the next step. Notice I made an alternate /t as well. It is lower, but still very readable.

Best,
Jacques

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Oops. Found some type-o on pages 12-15 :)

[Sebastian Kosch]

Thank you Jacques for this big update!

It's late and I may have more comments tomorrow, but here are my first impressions. Overall, great work. I guess I'm still hung up on the same details as before ...

- Capitals are looking good! Some seem to be on the wider side (D, E, K) while others are narrower (C, L, O), and I'm not sure about contrasts. I guess that will all get worked out in the print proofs later.

- /J and /j -- In the lower case I'm still strongly in favour of the straight descender, even though you've solved the curly descender elegantly. As for /J, here's another crazy idea: if we're gonna have a curl, what would a non-descending one look like?

- /t -- Both versions are okay; I'm still wondering about the possibility of a more clipped variant of the crossed version (see my last email). The letter is also a bit wide, in my opinion.

- The bottom serifs are noticeably finer than the lateral serifs (e.g. feet of /n vs. lower-right of /u). I believe a stronger, more consistent look could be achieved by strengthening the bottom serifs even more and perhaps even by flattening the lateral serifs a little bit. Probably a question for more in-depth screen and print proofs. (See sketch below)

- /r -- I actually quite like what you got there. Maybe give the terminal a little bit more roundness/volume on the right? Not sure.

- I tried giving the arches of /n and /m a tiny bit more weight. I don't want to force a perfectly straight transition into the stem, in fact I've quite warmed up to your hand-cut look, but a little bit more ink helps IMO. What do you think?

- /acf -- the alternates do fit better into the global feel, but I'll be honest with you: to me they look gimmicky, and I would almost prefer the previous version. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater though. Would you be open to experimenting with more (semi-)circular ball terminals instead of perfectly oval ones? Maybe there's a solution in that space somewhere. (Excuse the terrible sketches please)

Also, I dig the confidence of the head of the oval-terminal /f. It looks good in text. If we are to keep the Sabon short /f instead (which would still be my personal stylistic preference), then it still needs a heftier head IMO.

Cheers

Sebastian

On 2018-04-13 07:38 PM, Jacques Le Bailly wrote:

[Sebastian Kosch]

I also have another suggestion. How do you guys feel about a small reduction in the cap size (i.e. increased x-height)? I find the caps quite imposing at the moment.

[Jacques]

I would really like that. But did not suggest it because of the resemblance it needs to have with the original. It would be great

B A R O N   V O N   F O N T H A U S E N

Jacques Le Bailly

Op 14 apr. 2018, om 16:21, 'Sebastian Kosch' via Google Fonts Discussions <googlefon...@googlegroups.com> schreef:

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi Sebastian,

> Capitals are looking good! Some seem to be on the wider side (D, E, K) while others are narrower (C, L, O), and I'm not sure about contrasts. I guess that will all get worked out in the print proofs later.

Widths are now more classical, old style.

> - /J and /j -- In the lower case I'm still strongly in favour of the straight descender, even though you've solved the curly descender elegantly. As for /J, here's another crazy idea: if we're gonna have a curl, what would a non-descending one look like?

I have my doubts as well on the lowercase /j. Not sure yet. Uppercase with curl/drop on baseline is something I wouldn’t do. Maybe only making not as low as the lowercase.

> - /t -- Both versions are okay; I'm still wondering about the possibility of a more clipped variant of the crossed version (see my last email). The letter is also a bit wide, in my opinion.

I am pretty satisfied with the last versions.

> - The bottom serifs are noticeably finer than the lateral serifs (e.g. feet of /n vs. lower-right of /u). I believe a stronger, more consistent look could be achieved by strengthening the bottom serifs even more and perhaps even by flattening the lateral serifs a little bit. Probably a question for more in-depth screen and print proofs. (See sketch below)

I will look into that. Actually, except of the serifs, all bottom parts are thicker than the top parts. Like in the /o. Optically more balanced this way.

> - /r -- I actually quite like what you got there. Maybe give the terminal a little bit more roundness/volume on the right? Not sure.

Yes, I was thinking along the same line.

> - I tried giving the arches of /n and /m a tiny bit more weight. I don't want to force a perfectly straight transition into the stem, in fact I've quite warmed up to your hand-cut look, but a little bit more ink helps IMO. What do you think?

> <babmhniflojdbeki.png>

I will decide this after the printing proofs. I will judge in the 8-12pt range.

>
> - /acf -- the alternates do fit better into the global feel, but I'll be honest with you: to me they look gimmicky, and I would almost prefer the previous version. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater though. Would you be open to experimenting with more (semi-)circular ball terminals instead of perfectly oval ones? Maybe there's a solution in that space somewhere. (Excuse the terrible sketches please)

> <mlpddbpnagioobdk.png>

I will have a look. Your circular ball is too much baroque, rococo. I might add some more straight, less oval curves.

> Also, I dig the confidence of the head of the oval-terminal /f. It looks good in text. If we are to keep the Sabon short /f instead (which would still be my personal stylistic preference), then it still needs a heftier head IMO.

Will judge this in print.

[Sebastian Kosch]

Sounds good, looking forward to the next set of screenshots!

Also if this is going to be an all-new Crimson v3, and if v1 will still
be kept around on GF with small improvements, then I'm sure we can
afford making the caps a little smaller for a better overall look :)

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi All,

In this version all lowercase and all uppercase characters have been done. Note that the uppercase is in it’s first stage. Next step will to go though them again and change details after testing. Like stroke thickness, serif length etc.

I took the suggestion of Sebastian and made the horizontal serifs heavier. I went through the contrast and changed more little things. It is all subtle, but there :)

In the lowercase the drop endings for /a/c/f/y are now default. I prefer them like this. I did make them less oval. The short /t is now standard as well.

Round strokes in for example the /n are a tick rounder.

Spacing is still unitized.

There is a lot that has been done.

[Sebastian Kosch]

Hi Jacques, wow, lots of work done. The stronger serifs are a noticeable improvement. I can't tell what the subtle changes are, but I can tell that the overall feel is really nice and even now! It's mostly a matter of contrast details and better spacing/kerning at this point, so it's barely worth making specific comments at all.

I only have a few suggestions. Mostly details that I personally find too soft (see attached PDF)

- /t benefits from a flatter, thicker tail IMO, also from a slightly angled crossbar cutoff and a light indentation of the triangle
- /a/c/r/f/y drop endings flow better in text than the alternative (I agree). But I just can't get over the sucked-round look. Cutting an angled (and somewhat steeper) edge on the inside of the drops would make the terminals a bit more aggressive, and it allows them to be more aligned with the overall stress axis. Would you be open to that?
- /E/F/L (and maybe /S, not sure) – the transitions into the terminal serifs are completely round bends, unlike with all other serifs. Maybe those can be a bit more angular.
- /R I'd stick with a straight leg personally, what do you think?
- /A maybe a wee bit too pointy on top
- I still think the caps can be smaller. If this is Crimson v3, a new font, then I think we can afford some shrinkage.

Looking forward to your thoughts :)

Sebastian

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi Sebastian,

> Hi Jacques, wow, lots of work done. The stronger serifs are a noticeable improvement. I can't tell what the subtle changes are, but I can tell that the overall feel is really nice and even now! It's mostly a matter of contrast details and better spacing/kerning at this point, so it's barely worth making specific comments at all.

There is no kerning yet and the spacing is now unitized. I am not sure yet if I want to keep it like this. If I want to keep it unitized I will have to make some minor outline width changes. If not, I can work more free. This is one of the next steps, now the uppercase and lowercase are done.

> - /t benefits from a flatter, thicker tail IMO, also from a slightly angled crossbar cutoff and a light indentation of the triangle

I think the tail is fine, because it defines well the counter. If the tail would be flatter, the counter will be less defined and more open. This will have influence on the spacing and kerning.

> - /a/c/r/f/y drop endings flow better in text than the alternative (I agree). But I just can't get over the sucked-round look. Cutting an angled (and somewhat steeper) edge on the inside of the drops would make the terminals a bit more aggressive, and it allows them to be more aligned with the overall stress axis. Would you be open to that?

At the moment I am quite pleased with the softness. The weight is there where it should be, but the form is now such that it doesn’t stand out. But I will see if I can make an alternate form during the next steps.

> - /E/F/L (and maybe /S, not sure) – the transitions into the terminal serifs are completely round bends, unlike with all other serifs. Maybe those can be a bit more angular.

Good you noticed. I did it in /T but not in the others. I will have a look.

> - /R I'd stick with a straight leg personally, what do you think?

That is actually the first thing I tried. I found it very rigid. I will take it in consideration.

> - /A maybe a wee bit too pointy on top

I quite like it :)

> - I still think the caps can be smaller. If this is Crimson v3, a new font, then I think we can afford some shrinkage.

Me too. But I first want to have the original ones well drawn before I start testing a new size. Maybe in the future this could become a OTFVAR axis ?

Best,
Jacques

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

Great stuff - sorry I wasn't able to participate more to date, but I'm very happy with the work in progress :)

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018, 11:08 PM Jacques Le Bailly <fonth...@baronvonfonthausen.com> wrote:

> - I still think the caps can be smaller. If this is Crimson v3, a new font, then I think we can afford some shrinkage.

Me too. But I first want to have the original ones well drawn before I start testing a new size. Maybe in the future this could become a OTFVAR axis ?

For now let's leave var ideas out of scope :)

I'm sorry if this is rehashing a discussion we already had 😜 I'm keen to see this pushed "over the top" of the original (ala Montserrat) in Google Fonts, while of course there original would be available from github/etc for download and self hosting. Would the current development be reasonable to push like that, or has it become too much a new typeface? 

Cheers

Dave

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi Dave,

> For now let's leave var ideas out of scope :)

I was just speaking out loud my thoughts. I am well aware we are not working on a VAR font project.

> I'm sorry if this is rehashing a discussion we already had 😜 I'm keen to see this pushed "over the top" of the original (ala Montserrat) in Google Fonts, while of course there original would be available from github/etc for download and self hosting. Would the current development be reasonable to push like that, or has it become too much a new typeface?

I will make a deck in which I compare the original Crimson Text with this my Version. I expect the differences to be too big. I kinda continued to make it more explicit after you send me Raph Levien’s comment.

J

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

All good :) looking forward to your deck! Will be at the libre graphics meeting with the font bakery developers this week but will make time to take a look at the deck

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[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi Dave and Sebastian,

> All good :) looking forward to your deck! Will be at the libre graphics meeting with the font bakery developers this week but will make time to take a look at the deck

Today I have been making several decks.

Crimson_Pres_09.pdf
– This is the most recent version. Notice I altered the lowercase /a and made an alternate /R.

Crimson_Pres_10_compare.pdf
– Crimson Text New is compared to the original Crimson Text.

Crimson_Pres_11_Uni_Eye.pdf
– Crimson Text New was spaced by using a unitized system. I made a new spacing by hand and eye. It is still a little rough but I am considering leaving the unitized system. I might have to alter the widths of some outlines, but this will be very subtle.

[Sebastian Kosch]

Thanks!

I think the unitized spacing is fine (I don't see the big difference
honestly) but there are definitely some pairs still that look off. Are
you planning on doing a round of kerning by hand still?

[Jacques Le Bailly]

> I think the unitized spacing is fine (I don't see the big difference honestly) but there are definitely some pairs still that look off. Are you planning on doing a round of kerning by hand still?

I will finetune the spacing some more along the way, but the spacing by hand looks better to me. Kerning will be the last thing I do in the whole process. By hand.

[Eben Sorkin]

The spacing by hand looks way better than unitized to me. It could maybe be overcome by kerning but I think it would require more of it which seems inefficient.

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:57 AM, Jacques Le Bailly <fonth...@baronvonfonthausen.com> wrote:

> I think the unitized spacing is fine (I don't see the big difference honestly) but there are definitely some pairs still that look off. Are you planning on doing a round of kerning by hand still?

I will finetune the spacing some more along the way, but the spacing by hand looks better to me. Kerning will be the last thing I do in the whole process. By hand.

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[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi Eben,

> The spacing by hand looks way better than unitized to me. It could maybe be overcome by kerning but I think it would require more of it which seems inefficient.

This is what I think as well. It looks more regular and has a better flow. I was done a little roughly, but still gives a better result.
I will refine some more and change the widths of some glyphs accordingly to optimize the the flow and color.

I decided I will leave the Unitized system.

[Eben Sorkin]

Cool. This will be really nice! Best!

-e.

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[Jacques Le Bailly]

Here are some pictures of the notes I made on the prints. And the PDF with proofs I used for printing.

[Sebastian Kosch]

Cool! Thanks for sharing!

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Here is the next update of Crimson Text New.

I continued refining the outlines and the spacing. The level is now such, that I started working on diphthongs, German double s eth, etc.

Most of the basic accents were added and anchors were added to the lowercase. I re-composed some of the accented characters. You can see them in the proof.

The uppercase is still at the original size. I will test and change the height when I made more glyphs that should/could have the same height, like the lining tabular numerals and currency signs.

I still didn’t add kerning, this will be one of the last steps. Now the spacing was optimized some more, you will notice less kerning will be needed.

Best,
Jacques

[Jacques Le Bailly]

I have been working on finishing the whole GF Pro layout.

The only glyphs that aren’t finished yet are the @ and some that require rescaling like ordfeminin and superior/inferior numerals. That will be the next step. The @ will be done when I will work on the Italic.

The currency signs are now proportional. I might add tabular versions to fit the tabular numerals. The typeface now has tabular lining numerals, tabular oldstyle type numerals, proportional lining numerals and proportional oldstyle numerals. At the moment the proportional lining numerals are default. I consider making the proportional oldstyle numerals default.

In this proof you will find all the glyphs I have worked on. Notice that uppercase combined accents were added. Those are wider and more flat. This is also the case for the Vietnamese combined accents.

At the end I will add the kerning.

For the Italic I want to add the Roman uppercase and slant them (with optical corrections). This will enable me to use the uppercase kerning from the Roman for the Italic. Along the way I will see if some of the slanted uppercase need to be made more “Italic”. Like a longer tail for the Q etc.

Best,
Jacques

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Now the uppercase is done completely, the time has come to test if they have the right size. Sebastian asked me earlier if I would be open to change the uppercase height. Off course ! :)

Now the uppercase has approximately the same height as the ascenders. This results in large uppercase characters. In this proof is shown what happens when you make them smaller. It is done in increments of 5%, from 100-80% of the original size.

I extrapolated the glyphs to 80% and corrected the weight/contrast. They were shrunk proportionally, so the height and width are at 80%. Some glyphs will need a touch up.

The spacing was redone, because it had become too narrow. The new uppercase characters were added to two new masters in the work file. This enables making instances with more precision.

When we have decided what size we will take, I will swap (and correct) more glyphs in the new masters. At this moment, the lining numerals and currency signs are at the same height as the uppercase, for example.

Best,
Jacques

[Sebastian Kosch]

Thank you Jacques, that's a mighty update!

Some suggestions:

- Strongly in favour of straight-tail /j

- top of 2 (lining and oldstyle) extends a tiny bit too far left?
- top of 3 as well
- 5 looks like it might fall over to the right. A taller/rounder belly
(more like the 3) may help.

- ∞ is too small. It can well be wider than the numerals
- ∆ is too narrow compared to the letters
- ∫ should ascend above cap height, and I would strongly suggest giving
it curly/ball terminals (like /f), also to distinguish it from ʃ (U+0283)
- ∑ is too narrow and extends further down than necessary IMO. In
practice I would prefer for it extend above cap height a little bit, so
it stands apart from the summation term after it.
- ∏ needs to be the same as ∑, vertically speaking, whatever that is
- √ I would suggest that the bottom dip below the baseline a bit and
that the top extend above (at least numeral) height. You want to be able
to put a number next to it with an overbar and have it form a
nice-looking square root.

(In general, √∏∑∫ are all operators in strictly inline equations. It
would make sense for them to all go slightly below and slightly above
the rest of the text. Most fonts get this wrong, and I end up having to
use TeX even for short inline expressions to accomplish this, which is
annoying.)

- ∂ is a bit wide. Also, this is the one character that I think should
be italicized even in a Regular font. Upright ∂ just doesn't exist IRL
- § I'm sure this will look better if you make it wider. More
counterspace will loosen up the thick curved strokes and the cramped
little serifs. I would even consider stretching it vertically to go to
descender depth, as in many other fonts.
- /ell I know this is typically bolded, but is there a reason for the
lowered contrast between thick and thin?

- Cap height: 90% looks the healthiest to me. What do *you* think?
(Also, holy cow, that must've been a lot of work putting those sample
slides together. Thank you for that.)

Cheers
Sebastian

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi Sebastian,

Making those proofs wasn’t all that work :) It is all in the preparations. 

- Strongly in favour of straight-tail /j

It has a straight tail. The round tail is part of the ij :)

- top of 2 (lining and oldstyle) extends a tiny bit too far left?
- top of 3 as well
- 5 looks like it might fall over to the right. A taller/rounder belly (more like the 3) may help.

I might have a look at the 5, but 2&3 are fine.

- ∞ is too small. It can well be wider than the numerals

It is now set to tabular width. I could change that.

- ∆ is too narrow compared to the letters

Strange, it is now as wide as the A.

- ∫ should ascend above cap height, and I would strongly suggest giving it curly/ball terminals (like /f), also to distinguish it from ʃ (U+0283)

- ∑ is too narrow and extends further down than necessary IMO. In practice I would prefer for it extend above cap height a little bit, so it stands apart from the summation term after it.
- ∏ needs to be the same as ∑, vertically speaking, whatever that is
- √ I would suggest that the bottom dip below the baseline a bit and that the top extend above (at least numeral) height. You want to be able to put a number next to it with an overbar and have it form a nice-looking square root.

(In general, √∏∑∫ are all operators in strictly inline equations. It would make sense for them to all go slightly below and slightly above the rest of the text. Most fonts get this wrong, and I end up having to use TeX even for short inline expressions to accomplish this, which is annoying.)

- ∂ is a bit wide. Also, this is the one character that I think should be italicized even in a Regular font. Upright ∂ just doesn't exist IRL

I will have a look. But be aware I made the math signs bland on purpose. Most of them are now set on tabular width. I don’t intend to add superior and/or inferior versions of the math signs in this version of Crimson New. Maybe I could have a look when I will interpolate the inferior/superior numerals how much work it would be. But the overall intention is to make a text typeface and not one to set math with.

- § I'm sure this will look better if you make it wider. More counterspace will loosen up the thick curved strokes and the cramped little serifs. I would even consider stretching it vertically to go to descender depth, as in many other fonts.

This is an style and preference issue. I like the § to be as height/deep as the numerals. Now it is set to lining numerals. I could add an oldstyle version, that will go below the baseline. Width is something I can look at.

- /ell I know this is typically bolded, but is there a reason for the lowered contrast between thick and thin?

I will have a look.

- Cap height: 90% looks the healthiest to me. What do *you* think? (Also, holy cow, that must've been a lot of work putting those sample slides together. Thank you for that.)

Around 90% is my favorite as well. If you want to play with it, look into my Git tonight (this afternoon for you :) ) as I will commit. The file with the four masters will be in it.

Best,

Jacques

[Sebastian Kosch]

On 2018-05-22 10:16 AM, Jacques Le Bailly wrote:

Hi Sebastian,

Making those proofs wasn’t all that work :) It is all in the preparations. 

- Strongly in favour of straight-tail /j

It has a straight tail. The round tail is part of the ij :)

Ahhh, gotcha. Okay :)

- top of 2 (lining and oldstyle) extends a tiny bit too far left?
- top of 3 as well
- 5 looks like it might fall over to the right. A taller/rounder belly (more like the 3) may help.

I might have a look at the 5, but 2&3 are fine.

Thank you!

- ∞ is too small. It can well be wider than the numerals

It is now set to tabular width. I could change that.

I've never seen it used in tables, only equations, for which it is too small right now. That being said, even if it were to show up in a table of numbers, it's always going to stand by itself so there's no reason for it to squeeze into a column.

- ∆ is too narrow compared to the letters

Strange, it is now as wide as the A.

Maybe I'm just conditioned on Computer Modern's ∆ which is virtually equilateral! I would still consider making it a bit wider (just the math ∆, not the uppercase Greek ∆).

- ∫ should ascend above cap height, and I would strongly suggest giving it curly/ball terminals (like /f), also to distinguish it from ʃ (U+0283)

- ∑ is too narrow and extends further down than necessary IMO. In practice I would prefer for it extend above cap height a little bit, so it stands apart from the summation term after it.
- ∏ needs to be the same as ∑, vertically speaking, whatever that is
- √ I would suggest that the bottom dip below the baseline a bit and that the top extend above (at least numeral) height. You want to be able to put a number next to it with an overbar and have it form a nice-looking square root.

(In general, √∏∑∫ are all operators in strictly inline equations. It would make sense for them to all go slightly below and slightly above the rest of the text. Most fonts get this wrong, and I end up having to use TeX even for short inline expressions to accomplish this, which is annoying.)

- ∂ is a bit wide. Also, this is the one character that I think should be italicized even in a Regular font. Upright ∂ just doesn't exist IRL

I will have a look. But be aware I made the math signs bland on purpose. Most of them are now set on tabular width. I don’t intend to add superior and/or inferior versions of the math signs in this version of Crimson New. Maybe I could have a look when I will interpolate the inferior/superior numerals how much work it would be. But the overall intention is to make a text typeface and not one to set math with.

Don't worry about width, and don't worry about inferior/superior versions. For anything more complex there's TeX. The four you have are great, they just need vertical scaling/shifting to be useful to anyone.

- § I'm sure this will look better if you make it wider. More counterspace will loosen up the thick curved strokes and the cramped little serifs. I would even consider stretching it vertically to go to descender depth, as in many other fonts.

This is an style and preference issue. I like the § to be as height/deep as the numerals. Now it is set to lining numerals. I could add an oldstyle version, that will go below the baseline. Width is something I can look at.

It's a preference for sure; I'm fine with either personally. Width would help. Thanks :)

- /ell I know this is typically bolded, but is there a reason for the lowered contrast between thick and thin?

I will have a look.

Thanks!

- Cap height: 90% looks the healthiest to me. What do *you* think? (Also, holy cow, that must've been a lot of work putting those sample slides together. Thank you for that.)

Around 90% is my favorite as well. If you want to play with it, look into my Git tonight (this afternoon for you :) ) as I will commit. The file with the four masters will be in it.

I don't have Glyphs, but if we're in agreement then let's just do 90%? (Or 89 or 92 or whatever you think is just right)

Sebastian

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi Sebastian,
I implemented the suggestions you made :)

Best,
Jacques

[Sebastian Kosch]

Fantastic, those look great! Thank you!