Alegreya Cyrillic

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Juan Pablo del Peral is actively working on Cyrillic extension of Alegreya family. This thread will be used for Cyrillic reviews.

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Hi Juan

Congratulations with a quick and sound start on Cyrillic. 

*— Well begun is half done. 

Here is a first set of comments.

glyphs: дцщ ДЦЩ

descending hooks are not defined enough. 

Make +50% longer for lowercase, and +30% for uppercase

glyphs: ДЛдл

ДЛдл are too wide. As a rule of thumb, the innerspace of Л and Н should approximately match. Same applies for Д.

In this sense Black's proportions are proper. 

Letterform construction: Л and Д ought to have more trapezoidal forms. This can be achieved by further slanting the left stem. 

The left terminal in Л should go below the baseline in the overshoot zone. At the current state it is barely touching the baseline, which disrupts text flow. 

glyphs: м

Needs more stability. Can be achieved by making it wider. 

Corellate with wide glyphs ж ш w.

The low point (nadir) can be slightly raised. 

The left diagonal in Regular seems dark. 

glyph: б

The angle the top serif on the pennant better be slanted than straight

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Alexei Vanyashin <a...@cyreal.org> wrote:

Juan Pablo del Peral is actively working on Cyrillic extension of Alegreya family. This thread will be used for Cyrillic reviews.

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[Alexei Vanyashin]

Hi Juan,

I have reviewed the Roman masters of the Cyrillic, and made a PR.

Glyphs marked half-purple have a corrected layer in the Regular master. Please propagate these changes to the other master.

Top: before
Bottom: after (corrected layer)

Top: before
Bottom: after (corrected layer)

I have adjusted brevecomb-cy in the Regular master

todo:
б I would try a different junction with an inflection

 

[Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica]

Merged!

I will try a new б and apply your suggestions in the other master and also on the italics.

Thanks a lot Alexei!

:)

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Juan Pablo del Peral
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

HUERTA TIPOGRÁFICA

ju...@huertatipografica.com

www.huertatipografica.com

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[Alexei Vanyashin]

Great, thank you!

Here is a review of the italic. 

•  л м

•  ь ъ

•  brevecomb-cy

•  з lacks a bottom terminal. Match with э

•  ф should more similar to bowls form d+p

•  б

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Hi Juan, 

Good job with the updates on Italic. Here is the next round of comments. 

Simultaneously you can continue expanding the Cyrillic Plus range. You can use my GlyphsDataCYR.xml file to speed up components generation. Drop it in the same folder as your Glyphs file, and restart Glyphs. Once you have created descender-cy descender-cy.case strokeshortcomb 

you can use the 'Make Component Glyphs' function to auto-generate most of the component-based glyphs. 

ж the new form is great

к
Would be good to have an upward flick in the bottom limb. The current form feels too Greek (kappa), and this abrupt movement isn't supported in other glyphs.

У — diagonal is too dark

Й Cyrillic kratka (breve). Uppercase forms require a wider kratka

I have added a brevecomb-cy.case for Italic:

The Bold Ф is too light in both Italic and Roman styles. The sides of the bowls should be thicker.

I suggest raising the stem above the CAP height to create more space for the bowls.
References:

г д я
г is too wide, and the middle angle can be sharper
я adjust the angle of the bowl an seen on the image
д the ascender isn't right yet. It is too long.

[Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica]

Hi Alexei

Thank you so much for your quick response! I have a lot to do :)

A simple question: are the semiserifs okay now?

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Juan Pablo del Peral
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HUERTA TIPOGRÁFICA

ju...@huertatipografica.com

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[Alexei Vanyashin]

The semi-serifs on м, л look fine. There is a concern about their terminals 

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 8:08 PM Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica <ju...@huertatipografica.com> wrote:

Hi Alexei

Thank you so much for your quick response! I have a lot to do :)

A simple question: are the semiserifs okay now?

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Here is the missing image again. 

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Here is a review on the Sans

Light

Bowls

Bold

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Attaching a review of Sans Light.

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Bold

[Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica]

Thank you very much Alexei!

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Juan Pablo del Peral
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HUERTA TIPOGRÁFICA

ju...@huertatipografica.com

www.huertatipografica.com

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2016-12-20 7:49 GMT-03:00 Alexei Vanyashin <a...@cyreal.org>:

Bold

[Thomas Linard]

Hi,

The dev version https://github.com/huertatipografica/Alegreya-libre/tree/dev added polytonic Greek support. Could this new version use the "B set" proposed by Irene Vlachou https://github.com/irenevl/Google-Greek-Sets and discussed here? Many thanks!

[Juan Pablo del Peral]

Hi Thomas and team

Sorry for the delay. I was on vacation and  now moving to a new home :)

I will check Irene's list soon. Thanks!

J. 

El 12 ene. 2017, a las 10:17, Thomas Linard <thli...@gmail.com> escribió:

Hi,

The dev version https://github.com/huertatipografica/Alegreya-libre/tree/dev added polytonic Greek support. Could this new version use the "B set" proposed by Irene Vlachou https://github.com/irenevl/Google-Greek-Sets and discussed here? Many thanks!

[Thomas Linard]

Hi Juan,

No problem, enjoy your new home. I'm looking forward the new version of Alegreya!

[Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica]

Hi Thomas

Both Alegreyas support the Irene's B set :) and are still in development (specially the cyr character set).

Cheers

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Juan Pablo del Peral
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HUERTA TIPOGRÁFICA

ju...@huertatipografica.com

www.huertatipografica.com

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[Thomas Linard]

Great! I can't wait to see the new version finished!

[Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica]

Dear Alexei and colleagues

Polytonic greek is completed and reviewed in both families ;)

I completed GF Cyrillic Plus in Alegreya serif

and made the basic cyrillic in Alegreya sans

I added the sources and otfs (for testing) in the repos:

https://github.com/huertatipografica/Alegreya-libre/tree/dev

https://github.com/huertatipografica/Alegreya-Sans/tree/dev

Please let me know your comments and suggestions.

Thanks again!

j.

 

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Juan Pablo del Peral
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HUERTA TIPOGRÁFICA

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[Thomas Linard]

Hi Juan,

Fantastic work! And you thought about double gamma and double lambda ligatures! Lovely! 😊

Now my comments and suggestions:

You should use the Greek filter lists (they need update, but it's better than nothing): https://github.com/google/fonts/tree/greek-glyphsets/tools/encodings/GF%202016%20Glyph%20Sets/Greek

In particular, the two cases of the kai ligature from the Core set are missing and the small cap kai from the Expert is of course missing too (but in the definitive version, if it's validated, the Expert set will have also Greek superior letters).

Warning: these lists favor the practice of iota subscript, while you choose to follow the Western tradition of iota adscript by default (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_subscript).

I find disturbing that neither smcp or c2sc give accentued small caps. smcp + ss05 or c2sc + ss05 give accentued small caps (but, in this cas, with subscript iota). ss06 gives small cap adscript iota.

A better practice, I think, is when smcp give small cap adscript iota (if adscript iota is the default) and c2sc all small caps.

For this reason, I adapted in this spreadsheet the Greek practice of Irene (iota subscript by default) to a complete small caps system:

1. Default: cap + iota subscript
2. salt or ss0x: cap + iota adscript
3. smcp or s2sc : small cap + iota subscript
4. smcp + salt or ss0x : cap + small cap iota adscript
5. smcp or s2sc + salt or ss0x: small cap + small cap iota adscript

Nothing related, but the Capital Sharp S in Alegreya follows the "Dresden" design with a corner at the top left. Alegreya Sans follows the Dresden design with a an arc at the top left:
https://typography.guru/journal/capital-sharp-s-designs/

It's a matter of personal taste, but I think the Dresden design, particularly with a corner, works better for more geometric typefaces that Alegreya. The "Zehlendorf" design appears more suitable.

[Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica]

Great!

Thank you very much for your comments Thomas :)

I will work on them and follow the naming and iota positioning conventions that you proposed.

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Juan Pablo del Peral
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HUERTA TIPOGRÁFICA

ju...@huertatipografica.com

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[Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica]

Dear Thomas

I am refactoring the default and ss0X glyphs in both Alegreyas and I am a bit lost.

I noted that some typefaces doesn't have accents in the default small caps set. So I guess that we have two kind of variations (bold means default).

—subscript/adscript iota

—with/without accents in sc

Is this OK? So we will have: 

—two versions of each cap (subscript/adscript)

—and four versions of each sc (subscript accented, subscript unaccented, adscript accented, adscript unaccented).

Example:

Is this OK o maybe too much? (I didn't tested yet but the variations will impact in the file size).

Thanks!

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Juan Pablo del Peral
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HUERTA TIPOGRÁFICA

ju...@huertatipografica.com

www.huertatipografica.com

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[Thomas Linard]

Hi Juan,

You can take a look at Brill's SC implementation (by John Hudson) http://www.brill.com/about/brill-fonts

(Warning: Brill follows the Western practise of the iota adscript by default)

The smcp feature substitutes accented lowercase by accented small caps.

But the calt feature substitutes two contiguous accented caps or accented small caps by unaccented ones.

Set all caps texts in unaccented form is a fairly common practise (but shouldn't be imposed on users). To achieve this, Brill has a long series of unaccented small caps, I don't think it's necesserary (unaccented alpha, epsilon, omicron, omega and upsilon exist anyway). So, for me, it isn't exactely correct to speak of four versions of unaccented small caps: two versions exist for the unaccented alpha, epsilon, omicron, omega and upsilon anyway.

If you want this type of implementation in both Alegreya, it'll be more like this:

I used salt, but of course it's can be a ss0x feature also. And tell me if my examples aren't clear (I hope they are!).

By the way, the 2017 Greek Glyph Sets are (almost?) ready to be merged in the master branch. If you think the proposed list of glyphs for the Expert set doesn't allow a good implementation of small caps, I think it's always time to make corrections.

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Hi Juan, 

Sorry for a late responce, I was busy fixing issues of newly released fonts. 

Here is a review for Alegreya, Regular and Italic styles. Similar comments apply for other masters. 

For glyphs Ѫѫ U+046A, U+046+B here is a reference. Note the diagonals are joined similar to Latin "Y".

[Alexei Vanyashin]

In fact Christian's Cormorant would be a good example for Italic /к, as an illustration to my comment on enlarging the top white triangle. 

[Alexei Vanyashin]

More comments on the Cyrillic glyph sets:

Missing glyphs (I think it was added to Plus later, so you may be using an older version of the Cyrillic Plus list):

Ҳ Hadescender-cy

ҳ hadescender-cy

These Glyphs should be set to non-exportable (and perhaps removed from the Plus list to eliminate the confision):

/descender-cy 

/descender-cy.case

/verticalbar-cy

/verticalbar-cy.case

Juan, will you be incuding localised variant forms? There is a separate list for Italic localised forms that slightly deviates from the Roman.

From this list these glyphs are mandatory for Chuvash, and Bashkir support:

Ghestroke-cy.loclBSH

ghestroke-cy.loclBSH

Zedescender-cy.loclBSH

zedescender-cy.loclBSH

Esdescender-cy.loclBSH

esdescender-cy.loclBSH

Esdescender-cy.loclCHU

esdescender-cy.loclCHU

In Italic these glyphs are essential for Serbian and Macedonian:

be-cy.loclSRB

ge-cy.loclSRB

de-cy.loclSRB

pe-cy.loclSRB

te-cy.loclSRB

gje-cy.loclMKD

Lastly the .loclBGR glyphs may be added. They are not mandatory for "Bulgarian language support", but adding them will add typographic variety for users of Bulgrian, and other Cyrillic languages. 

[Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica]

Thanks Thomas and Alexei. Will work and get back soon

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Juan Pablo del Peral
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HUERTA TIPOGRÁFICA

ju...@huertatipografica.com

www.huertatipografica.com

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[juandelperal]

Hi! Here I share the answer from Panagiotis. I think that will be interesting for you too.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Panagiotis Haratzopoulos <p.ha...@gmail.com>
Date: 2017-02-16 9:46 GMT-03:00
Subject: Re: [googlefonts-discuss] Alegreya Cyrillic
To: "\"Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica\"" <ju...@huertatipografica.com>

Hello Juan,

I come upon this question many times.

Capital Greek letters do not take diacritics. This is a grammar rule.

Besides, in ancient times, BC years, epigraphic Greek did not have accent diacritics that were introduced in later AD years.

Namely, grammatically it is not correct.

On the other hand, I see in Adobe’s sets or many by several non-Greek type designers that they use accents on small caps of Greek polytonic.

If you consider these glyphs -somehow- as lower case stylistic alternates, then it could be accepted.

[ypogegrammeni] diacritic in lower case becomes [prosgegrammeni] diacritic, when it is set in capitals.

It is actually a [iota] letter ending in a word of an older speech form (dotiki) that has disappeared and replaced by other form of speech.

Ypogegrammeni is this old [iota] and means [ypo]=under + [ge] past tense + [grammeni]=written. It would be translated as [has been written underneath].

Prosgegrammeni has the [pros] meaning at the side. It would be translated as [has been written next to].

As a conclusion, you never use accent diacritics in Capitals.

You can use diacritics above small caps only if you consider them as a stylistic form of lower case and not as small upper case.


I hope this answers your question.

Let me know if it is not clear.

Best

Panos

[Juan Pablo del Peral :: Huerta Tipográfica]

Hi Panagiotis

Then it would be something like this?

Thanks!

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Juan Pablo del Peral
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

HUERTA TIPOGRÁFICA

ju...@huertatipografica.com

www.huertatipografica.com

facebook.com/huertatipo

[Thomas Linard]

Hi Juan,

When you choose to made a monotonic Greek typeface, you know your first public will be native speakers. But when you extend to polytonic Greek, which isn't commonly used in Greece anymore, you must know that your public, for the polytonic part, will be in good part non-native. And the Western tradition of Greek printing isn't less noble than the native one. In fact, Greek has been printed first in the Western world!

It may sound stupid to require to set in diacritics, for uppercase or lowercase, texts written at a time when no diacritics existed (and even no double case — uppercase and lowercase —, like Latin in the same time — and yet nobody wants to go back to a single case, ISN'T IT?😉), yet it's the common practice in academic edition of ancient Greek texts in the Western world.

Not that I am against the native practice. In fact, I found Irene's proposal interesting, precisely in part because the Greek practice (iota subscript for lowercase and uppercase) was the default.

So, when I read "[ypogegrammeni] [= iota subscript] diacritic in lower case becomes [prosgegrammeni] [= iota adscript] diacritic, when it is set in capitals", I wonder: has the Western practice become so common in Greece that the Greeks themselves have forgotten their own tradition?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_subscript
"Different conventions exist for the treatment of subscript/adscript iota with uppercase letters. In Western printing, the most common practice is to use subscript diacritics only in lowercase environments and to use an adscript (i.e. a normal full-sized iota glyph) instead whenever the host letter is capitalized. When this happens in a mixed-case spelling environment (i.e. with only the first letter of a word capitalized, as in proper names and at the beginning of a sentence), then the adscript iota regularly takes the shape of the normal lowercase iota letter (e.g. ᾠδεῖον → Ὠιδεῖον). In an all-capitals environment, the adscript is also regularly capitalized (ΩΙΔΕΙΟΝ). In Greece, a more common convention is to print subscript diacritics both with lowercase and uppercase letters alike. Yet another, intermediate convention is to use lowercase adscript iotas both for mixed-case and for all-capitals words (e.g. ΩιΔΕΙΟΝ), or to use a special glyph in the shape of a smaller capital iota in the latter case (ΩΙΔΕΙΟΝ).[11]"

[Thomas Linard]

Hi Juan,

The Google Fonts Greek Glyphs Sets have been released.

Btw, I found in this document why the tradition of iota subscript no longer seems to be followed everywhere in Greece:

1. The first approach (capital subscript) is to treat uppercase as equivalent to lowercase: if a mute iota is tucked underneath a lowercase vowel, it should also be tucked underneath an uppercase vowel. This is what the mediaeval scribes did, and it turns up both in pre-Modern Western typography of Classical Greek, and in Modern Greek typography—particularly that associated with the Church.
2. The second approach (capital adscript) is to take capitals—and all caps text in particular—as equivalent to Ancient Greek text, which after all didn't have any lower case. In Ancient Greek writing, /oːi/ was written in capitals, as ΩΙ. So in a modern all caps text, the thinking goes, the same should be done: the capital version of ῳ is ΩΙ. This is seen sometimes in the west. In that case, the iota is no longer subscript, ypogegrammeni (written underneath the letter), but adscript, prosgegrammeni (written next to the letter).
3. The third approach (small adscript) is a compromise: the capital version of the iota subscript is adscript, written next to the letter, but not as a full-sized capital iota. It appears either as a lowercase iota (full-sized or smaller than normal), or as a small-caps iota. This is usual practice in the West, and frequent outside the Church in Greece as well.

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Juan, it would be great if you could test your Greek set against the newly defined Greek filter lists here

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[Thomas Linard]

Here?