Call for action: Time to rethink a road-map and more frequent updates for GWT.

[Joshua Kappon]

With the rise of the new developers.google.com, and with Google trying to rally up developers using Google technologies and products, and the rise of Dart and unclear future of GWT, I think it's about time that Google will rethink the all "We don't and won't have a road map, and there are no release dates for new GWT versions" and embrace the GWT developers community.

What do you guys think? (if you agree, +1 this)

Best,

Josh 

[Alan Chaney]

On 04/02/2012 08:19 AM, Joshua Kappon wrote:
> With the rise of the new developers.google.com, and with Google trying
> to rally up developers using Google technologies and products, and the
> rise of Dart and unclear future of GWT, I think it's about time that
> Google will rethink the all "We don't and won't have a road map, and
> there are no release dates for new GWT versions" and embrace the GWT
> developers community.

I think that there is no logical relationship between your opening
statements and the need for Google to produce a road map for GWT. Why is
the future of GWT "unclear"? Its an open-source project that a lot
people use and quite a few contribute to. If Google stopped new work on
it tomorrow, the project wouldn't go away - it would just become a
community project and I'm sure a lot of people would continue to use it
and work on it.

"The Google Web Toolkit software and sample code developed by Google is
licensed under the Apache License, v. 2.0. " - so, if you are really
worried about it "disappearing" keep an up to date copy of the trunk.

Alan

>
> What do you guys think? (if you agree, +1 this)
>
> Best,
> Josh

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[Joshua Kappon]

On Monday, April 2, 2012 6:30:14 PM UTC+3, Alan Chaney wrote:
> On 04/02/2012 08:19 AM, Joshua Kappon wrote:
> > With the rise of the new developers.google.com, and with Google trying
> > to rally up developers using Google technologies and products, and the
> > rise of Dart and unclear future of GWT, I think it's about time that
> > Google will rethink the all "We don't and won't have a road map, and
> > there are no release dates for new GWT versions" and embrace the GWT
> > developers community.
> I think that there is no logical relationship between your opening
> statements and the need for Google to produce a road map for GWT. Why is
> the future of GWT "unclear"? Its an open-source project that a lot
> people use and quite a few contribute to. If Google stopped new work on
> it tomorrow, the project wouldn't go away - it would just become a
> community project and I'm sure a lot of people would continue to use it
> and work on it.
>
> "The Google Web Toolkit software and sample code developed by Google is
> licensed under the Apache License, v. 2.0. " - so, if you are really
> worried about it "disappearing" keep an up to date copy of the trunk.
>
>
> Alan
>
>
> >
> > What do you guys think? (if you agree, +1 this)
> >
> > Best,
> > Josh
> > --

Dear Alan
In my opinion, if Google would stop working on it, then GWT's future is unclear.
It might be adopted by the contributors and it also might be droped after sometime. The problem is you never know.

I personally think it won't be droped any time soon, since Google is heavly vested in it, but you can probably understand why the GWT community is missing new comers and "sitting on the fence" people, because of Google's promotion of Dart on one side, and the GWT silence (GWT blog, and official site haven't been updated in months) on the other.

As for logic - I simply ment to imply, that if Google is focusing now, more than ever, on developers using Google technologies, they should listen to the GWT community as well.
You can search this group, blogs and google for "gwt 2.5" (see also gwt issue tracker) or "gwt roadmap" and see that these interst many developers using GWT.

Anyway I Hope I made myself a bit more clear.
What's your take on a roadmap?

Josh

[Joseph Lust]

Alan,

Thanks as always for your courteous replies. I'm grateful for the efforts the Google developers put into GWT, as any other enterprise building such a framework would most certainly charge the Earth for it while also crippling its functionality in exchange for customer lock-in. Google just makes great software.

However, I work in a large enterprise where our GWT Community of Practice group must make a case for why any new application should use GWT. It is important to management to know the future of GWT and a roadmap is how this is commonly done. While I don't personally think GWT will suffer from the recent project pogroms at Google, a roadmap and rough release schedule will lend greater confidence to others in the stability and longevity of the framework needed before a company is willing to build multi-million dollar projects with it.

If GWT retains buy-in at Google, I don't understand why such planning would be detrimental to the GWT team. As I see it, such public planning will only drive more companies and startups to join the GWT bandwagon.

Sincerely,

Joseph

[Alfredo Quiroga-Villamil]

While I think that the GWT community is one of the best ones out there and I have no doubt about our ability to pick this up should it ever be dropped by Google, I have to agree with Joseph. I've already been told a few times that the future of GWT is uncertain. Again, while I know and I am confident in the ability of this community and contributors to run with it, a rough idea for things to come or a list of things that the community would like to see implemented would go a long way in the enterprise world as Joseph mentioned.

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[Dipti Sharma]

+1

[Alan Chaney]

Hi Joseph

On 04/03/2012 08:34 AM, Joseph Lust wrote:
> Alan,
>
> Thanks as always for your courteous replies. I'm grateful for the
> efforts the Google developers put into GWT, as any other enterprise
> building such a framework would most certainly charge the Earth for it
> while also crippling its functionality in exchange for customer
> lock-in. Google just makes great software.
>
> However, I work in a large enterprise where our GWT Community of
> Practice group must make a case for why any new application should use
> GWT. It is important to management to know the future of GWT and a
> roadmap is how this is commonly done. While I don't personally think
> GWT will suffer from the recent project pogroms at Google, a roadmap
> and rough release schedule will lend greater confidence to others in
> the stability and longevity of the framework needed before a company
> is willing to build multi-million dollar projects with it.
>

Have you seen this thread on Google+?
https://plus.google.com/117487419861992917007/posts/6YWpsHpqMqZ

especially Ray Cromwell's comment about half-way down? Also Eric
Clayberg's - I suggest you read the whole thread, but I've copied and
pasted two comments which caught me eye.
<SNIP>
Ray Cromwell: "Many of Google's services are still being written in GWT
and won't change anytime soon, for example AdWords and AdSense, from
which Google derives the majority of their revenue, are written in GWT,
so given that fact alone, GWT will be around for a long time and
continue to be improved. The loss of Ray Ryan and Bob were a big set
back (unrelated to Dart), and we have people trying to get up to speed
on their contributions to maintain them, but honesty, we rely on many of
our top external users like Thomas Broyer and Stephan Haberman to fill
the gap until that time. (Thanks guys) Turnover is natural and happens
at all companies, and it's always rough.

The next release or two of GWT may include more core improvements than
the last few point releases of GWT so far, consider:
1) Compiler optimizations that reduce code by size by 30% uncompressed,
and 15% gzipped
2) SourceMap support and Source-Level Java debugging in Chrome (and
hopefully Firefox)
3) A "super draft mode" that can recompile many apps in under 10 seconds
and most under 5
4) New "to the metal" "modern browser" HTML bindings
5) Testing framework that makes GUI testing delightful
6) Incremental compile support to speed up production compiles

So code will be getting smaller, faster, easier to debug (in some
situations) and test, and compiles will go quicker. This reflects
somewhat the shift in GWT team composition, but as people ramp up on
other parts of the SDK (e.g. MVP stuff), I'm sure there will be improved
responsiveness to fixing bugs in that area as well.

Obviously, we want Dart to be a huge success, but even if it is, Java
isn't going away anytime soon. :)"
</SNIP>
<SNIP>
Eric Clayberg: "I can assure you that GWT is not in maintenance mode.
Not even close! Quite the contrary, GWT is very healthy, and the GWT
team continues to focus on making GWT a great choice for building
structured web applications now and in the future. If you have the need
to start a new web app project, GWT would be an excellent choice, and
there is no reason to avoid it. The GWT team is fully staffed, and we
have very ambitious plans for GWT's future. GWT is used by many large,
important projects within Google (and outside Google), and that is
unlikely to change any time soon."
<SNIP>

I accept that its not an official roadmap - but it seems to give a clear
indication of a continued commitment to developing GWT, albeit on a
slower scale than before. I shoudl add that I have no commercial
affliation with Google whatsoever, I just use GWT in a couple of
different projects in two different companies.

Alan

> If GWT retains buy-in at Google, I don't understand why such planning
> would be detrimental to the GWT team. As I see it, such public
> planning will only drive more companies and startups to join the GWT
> bandwagon.
>
> Sincerely,
> Joseph
>
>

[coderinabstract]

+ 1...

Working on web apps since web came to existence.... asp, jsp, cgi, DHTML, javascript, struts and it was a real mess and did not truly enjoy it. Also,apps created were error prone with code bloat and good design was messy and a challenge.

The power of true OO, with Java, generics and good design with GWT is a complete game changing innovation compared to the page based development, untyped and script based frameworks in creating highest quality end user experiences. 

Sincerely hope thats GWTs power with HTML5/CSS and supporting a truly open standard already qualifies this to be the best design experience for someone like me who really enjoys good application design. Augmenting GWT with frameworks like GWTP and other opensource frameworks makes this a formidable high performing application design architecture out there. I have yet to find a solid scalable OO/Java based design framework with this kind of pure OO and componentization power for user experience management... combine that with GIN/GUICE and it keeps on getting better.

I sincerely hope Google continues to promote this awesome framework and continue to make web development so much fun. Was kind of disappointed to see it go away from the front page of the new google developers site, however agree that this is a large and formidable community which shall continue to move forward.

Best...

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[Joshua Kappon]

Joseph, Coderinabstract

I agree with you both.
I also appreciate the GWT contributors, and I hope Google will continue to support and improve this toolkit,
But since there was no official movement on the blog and on the project page for about 6 months, I believe it is our responsibility to let google know it is missing, and we hurt for that, help me spread the word please.

Alan,
I am following Ray, and saw that post. I am also searching constantly for new updates about the project, but don't you agree it should have been at least posted also in the blog? again, if you want the community to grow, you must make it easier for new comers to join and bring them up to date.

[Trey Roby]

It has been about 4 months since Ray's post on what the GWT team is
working on. In that time there has been only one GWT official blog
update and no releases for 6 months.

After reading the link that Alan suggested, I am encouraged but on
slightly since the post is several months old. There needs to be some
official signs of life. If the GWT group is fully staffed then it
should not be possible to communicate that in some way.

At Caltech we have been using GWT for over 4 years. We have build a
very large and amazing set of web applications using GWT. We are very
invested in GWT and I am eager to see some more obvious signs of life.

Trey

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> >> > google-web-tool...@googlegroups.com.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Gilad Egozi]

+1 !

[Joshua Kappon]

here is my original Google+ post:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/117852058882395554716/posts/iQnNfC2BkxA

I'm aiming to get some response from Google - You can really help out by re-sharing and +1'ing it,

and contributing your comments there also.

Hopefully if we'll unite and be loud at some central place, we might get some answers.

Thanks for helping

Joshua

> >> google-web-toolkit@googlegroups.com.

> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >> > google-web-toolkit+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Renato Beserra]

No attention on this yet? I can't +1 it without G+, right?

2012/4/5 Joshua Kappon <shuky....@gmail.com>

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[java4africa]

+1

I stuck my neck out for GWT - I think it's a great concept. But without any news, plans, or long term commitment, I think it's pretty risky to throw man-months of development behind it. There are other options for web development where I have more control over what will be available in 3+ years time.

[Patrick Tucker]

If you watch the GWT Contributor Google group, you can see what is being reviewed/worked on, what is getting committed to trunk and what not...

[Joshua Kappon]

I understand (and do that), but I think GWT should get more attention from Google, and that it is not enough.
GWT is amazing, absolutely amazing. Google has developer advocates that are helping with the G+ platform, android, Chrome web store, chromium OS and more, they publish new content, hear the developers (that use the SDKs), organize events and more.
I would love to see GWT getting a fraction of that attention from Google (like it did in 2008) -
It would help the GWT community, it will raise more awareness, more online resources, more everything.

I would really love if we somehow could reach open ears there.

[Trey Roby]

There is a significant difference between having to watch the GWT
Contributor Google group and an official post to the GWT blog. Not
posting to the official blog is surely a sign of internal GWT
problems. A healthy project is going to have official updates.

We are very tied to GWT and think it is a great product. We have
written Web apps on a scale that would be very difficult with straight
JavaScript.

I would really like to see key signs of health.

Trey

[Subhrajyoti Moitra]

+1

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[Marko]

On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:57:31 PM UTC+2, Trey Roby wrote:

There is a significant difference between having to watch the GWT
Contributor Google group and an official post to the GWT blog. Not
posting to the official blog is surely a sign of internal GWT
problems.  A healthy project is going to have official updates.

I can only partially agree. There are two possibilities:

1) Silence is because they are preparing something big.

2) Silence is because they are considering dropping it.

I remember simmilar silence from IBM when there was no news about IBM VisualAge for Java for a loooong time. And then they came out with Eclipse...  VIsualAge for Java was dead product, but everybody was happy with Eclipse...

So maybe it is not "a sign of internal GWT problems"...

Marko

[Anders]

+1

[dominikz]

For over a year I was trying to convince my customers (that I develop programs for) to use GWT with their SAP system. The technologies available over there are WebDynpro for ABAP or Business Server Pages, which do not even know what AJAX is.

In January I managed to do that. We just finished porting one of the tool to mobile phones with the use of GWT on SAP. We just started writing another tool that was simply impossible to write in Web Dynpro ABAP. 

It would really break my belief in Google, if now (after over a year of convincing my customers) I would need to go back and say - GWT is no longer available.

One thing that comes to my mind. I remember 2 years ago seeing all those great presentations of Google Wave on Google I/O. I managed to convince my customers to use it. We really loved it. It was great for communication. Look where we are now with that tool. Not only it just died, but there's also no decent export of the data from that system available (selecting at most 10 or 100 waves and putting them to PDFs is not enough for me - it will take me ages to select and download).

Also what was contributed by Google to the open source seems to have very little stability. I've tried to use the projects on Apache, but the server simply stops working after a couple of wave edits.

So what I am really affraid of, is that this lack of commits to GWT public repository is really a way of doing the same thing as was done with Wave. We will be left without decent source code.

I've been for years with technologies like SAP or AS/400. Those are really annoying when you try to do something modern. But the thing that is good about them is that they never go away. I understand that Google needs to try new things (dart). But turning away from such a big project like GWT is stabbing yourself in the back.

[Kim Ras]

+1

On Monday, April 2, 2012 5:19:16 PM UTC+2, Joshua Kappon wrote:

[Frank]

GWT will also not go away...
If you have downloaded GWT on your computer you just can keep using it even years after Google has dropped GWT...
Just like you still can program in QuickBasic or something.

GWT doesn't need anything from Google on the web to operate.

I will just keep using GWT if Google drops it, and see keep an eye on Dart.

Op donderdag 12 april 2012 10:00:15 UTC+2 schreef dominikz het volgende:

[massimo malvestio]

In my opinion Dart is overstimated by Google, I can't see why competitors like Microsoft and Mozilla should give a hand to Dart.. Just because Google says it can be better than javascript? Chrome can be one of the best browser on the market, and it can be the most used, but it will never be the only one used. So what? You build plugin for others browser to enable Dart? If I remember well, two years ago Microsoft blocked a plugin that could replace Explorer native javascript engine.
What I always like of Gwt was the capability of hiding diffrerent javascript implementations, without forcing developers to learn a new language.
The current lack of Gwt in my opinion is the appereance of guis, they are not so eye candy like other built using specific framework. Anyway in my opionion Dart will follow Wave, just because is not a standard, and competitors have no convenience on supporting it, if it wouldn't be so, we would have just one implementation of javascript for all browsers.

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[Jmscavaleiro]

+1

[Nagin Kothari]

++1

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[Blake McBride]

I strongly disagree with this.  First of all browser technology and HTML are in constant flux.  If GWT is not updated, it will very soon become out-of-date (bugs in new browsers) and unusable (reliably usable over a broad base of browsers and platforms).  Secondly, building apps with GWT is a full time job.  Having to understand and maintain GWT makes two full time jobs.  Building GWT apps could easily be a multi-million dollar effort - and so could maintaining GWT.  This is a huge, huge risk!

Another issue I've seen this many times before.  When Windows became popular, many developer tools appeared.  Many were quite good.  IMO, the worst development environment by far was Microsoft's MFC.  Virtually all of the other tools either sold out or got dropped.  Management often chose MFC over other tool because they were non-technical and the old IBM adage applied to Microsoft "no one ever lost their job by selecting Microsoft" ruled. In the end, the industry largely settled on the absolute lowest common denominator.  Innovation in that area, for all practical purposes, is dead.

Now we have ASP, JSP, and other popular mashups out there.  I am utterly shocked how poor they are (although to their credit, they are trying to solve practical problems given an environment that was clearly not meant to support what they are attempting!).  These environments are among the worst I've ever seen.  It's one kludgy work around after another with three totally different environments attempting to interact.  GWT goes a very long way to solve this very significant problem.  However, GWT is a total waste of time if you risk your entire company on it and it gets dropped.  In terms of financial risk, very unfortunately, tool popularity and support beats functionality, elegance, and productivity every time.

A statement of commitment from Google would make a huge difference to me.

Blake McBride

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[sampath sai]

+1.

Lets do small rally!!. I know it sounds weird.but at least group of 20 people in front of Google head office. let me know. we can create poll who ever is interested can join. Google will at least get some attention... 

[Andrés Testi]

+1

How we can trust in Google APIs and services (AppEngine for example) if they leaves a wide used framework like GWT? Sorry, but you lost credibility. I know, GWT is Open Source and free as a free beer, but this abandon is a mistake.

Please, we need feedback.

Regards.

- Andrés

[supercobra]

I hope Google IO will be a good opportunity for the GWT team to announce new things and update us. 

However it's never a good sign when a team of developers is not reaching out to their audience. Uncertainty, this feels like. Yeeess.

[Frank]

I believe you are being over-pessimistic.

In my company we are using GWT since 2006 and we have build pretty large and complicated web-apps using GWT. Some webapps created in 2006 (using GWT 1.2) are still being used today without any problem on any modern browser. Normally old stuff keeps working in modern browsers. We do upgrade old projects to new versions of GWT if an old project needs a big update, but we have never updated any of our apps because it stopped working on new browsers.

Also note that GWT is opensource (today you can download the complete source-code, and compile it no problem).

Frank


Op vrijdag 13 april 2012 16:34:51 UTC+2 schreef Blake het volgende:

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[Raphael André Bauer]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 10:05 PM, Frank <frank....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe you are being over-pessimistic.
>
> In my company we are using GWT since 2006 and we have build pretty large and
> complicated web-apps using GWT. Some webapps created in 2006 (using GWT 1.2)
> are still being used today without any problem on any modern browser.
> Normally old stuff keeps working in modern browsers. We do upgrade old
> projects to new versions of GWT if an old project needs a big update, but we
> have never updated any of our apps because it stopped working on new
> browsers.
>
> Also note that GWT is opensource (today you can download the complete
> source-code, and compile it no problem).

My 2 cents:
1st cent: GWT works for us like a charm for many years in really large
dev teams and in projects used by millions daily. So I am totally sure
that GWT is great and super-stable. It's not a toy but a really
productive and working thing.
2nd cent: I also find it a bit strange that Google does not say more
about GWT. But on the other hand it's open source and if you follow
the contributors list you get a good feeling that a lot is going on.

Cheers,

Raphael
(btw. @ GWT devs: Great job. I enjoy using GWT each day...).

[bryanb]

I agree 100% with your assessment of alternative technologies, and
agree that GWT is really the only solution for developing complex web
applications. The only alternative is a 100% Javascript solution (for
example using Closure tools). With Dart, Google have acknowledged that
Javascript isn't really up to the task. Given Google's reliance on GWT
for some of their core applications, I think it's fair to assume
either GWT will be around for a while or there will be some migration
path to Dart.

[dominikz]

 I actually think that the whole mess with Dart is actually to develop a single platform for both Google products: Android and Chrome.

Imagine that in a couple of years you could write in the same language both native (to Android) and browser applications. Wouldn't it make be great? Of course from Google perspective, if they are only thinking about promoting their own products (Android), because they surely don't care about Windows Phone or iPhone.

In my opinion they are going a way to encourage to use their products and discourage to use other's. Imagine you have (through Dart) a very easy way of developing native application, or close to native with a web language (Dart). Of course those would only have 'native' L&F for Android and Chrome. For all the other browsers they will put some sort of 'compatibility layer' (javascript) that will not have all those cool features (animations, etc.).

If the developers catch this idea, people will tend to use Chrome and Android more, because of a better experience.

What do you think about that theory?

[Joshua Kappon]

I personally believe that someone at Google decided GWT is too complicated for web developers out there and has failed the test of getting traction (I know a lot of people are using it, but I think they were aiming for a number similar to the JS community).
I personally think that Dart is out there only as an attempt to pull more Java Scripters in, because they feel GWT failed to do that.
Dart runs natively on chrome, but also compiles to JS (just like GWT) - so it can support all modern browsers.

I started this thread because I feel there are a lot of GWT developers who really want to hear Google's thoughts about GWT in the future. I also feel that in this last year, people are discovering it and thinking about adopting more than before, but they are driven away by Google's official silence (Personally, I know of 3 companies who decided it is a risk, and chose BackBone.JS instead)

Don't get me wrong, I am thankful to the contributors community, but I think Google should say something as Google about this.

[Carl]

GWT is the best thing I've ever come across as a web programmer. My company does 100% in GWT and Java. Using only one standard language for both server and client that works on all browsers is brilliant and unigue.

Google, please realize that GWT is awesome and put all your great efforts into GWT instead of starting all over with a language like Dart that doesn't bring any real pros to the table and will never be a standard like Java/Javascript.

A roadmap including some long term commitment would really make my day.

[Thomas Lefort]

+1 (for whatever it's worth), totally agree, one language AND it's Java, with all the tools that come with it
+ it's fast, very fast

[Erron]

+1 GWT is too complicated. I think even for experts in GWT and/or Java you would have to admit that GWT is quite verbose which turns off alot of JS developers.  From what I have seen, Dart looks to be the evolution of GWT. But it still has a longs way to go to be as mature as GWT.

[Nagin Kothari]

GWT is the very good framework which gives you flexibility to use their in-built widgets or functionality as well allow to work on low level API or customize framework to your need like compiler linker etc.  My company does 100% in GWT and Java. Using only one standard language for both server and client that works on all browsers is brilliant and unique.

-Nagin kothari
www.zilicus.com

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www.zilicus.com

[massimo malvestio]

According to Google code blog article, Dart can be translated in Javascript to obtain borwsers compliance, http://googlecode.blogspot.it/2011/10/dart-language-for-structured-web.html
"Dart code can be executed in two different ways: either on a native virtual machine or on top of a JavaScript engine by using a compiler that translates Dart code to JavaScript".
So, I can write my own App that can run on Android, as previously mentioned, and I can translate it to permit other browsers than Chrome to execute it.
This leads me to a question, how should I manage the transition from Java - Gwt to Dart? It is supposed that coders have to entirely rewrite the code? Honestly, everything sounds to me like a political choice to force people to shift from java platform develepment to Dart platform, leveraging the huge Android diffusion through cellphones and tablets.
Now, what I ask myself is, why should I learn a "new" programming language when I already know Java, immensely supported, both on the tools side and acquired knowledge base by the community?
Because of performances? Not so sure, we got 4 cpued cellphones, tablets with gpus, so the calculation capability is not a problem.
For semplicity or easiness of developing complex webapps? There are a lot of javascript frameworks that help developers on building structured web applications, with a look and feel only dreamed by GWT developers.

[Shawn Brown]

> Honestly, everything sounds to me like a political choice to force people to
> shift from java platform develepment to Dart platform, leveraging the huge
> Android diffusion through cellphones and tablets.

OK yeah sure maybe it is "political" but ...

What if Oracle wins big against Google in terms of java use for android.

From Google's standpoint, couldn't you see why they might be
interested in an alternative? Do you know what courts will decide?
Does Google? I don't.

Shawn

[Yeroc]

Two weeks later and not a single reply by a GWT developer?  On any open source project that would be enough to scare users away.

[Gražvydas Valeika]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Yeroc <cpuf...@gmail.com> wrote:

Two weeks later and not a single reply by a GWT developer?  On any open source project that would be enough to scare users away.

According this google+ post:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/117361110923472794003/posts

'The engineering work in my office is being shifted to another site in the US' . It seems that Google shuts down Atlanta site and GWT developers are busy managing that.

[emurmur]

I'm one of the fence sitters.

I have been using Flex/Flash, which has been fantastic, but has no
future on the mobile web. I think there are only two mature tools
that would allow me to create similarly rich applications; GWT and
Closure Tools. Google has decided that Javascript won't cut it for
their own future products, even though they are heavily invested in
Closure Tools. I agree completely. It is important to understand
that they have also decided NOT to move everything to GWT. This makes
some sense, given that the owner of Java is suing them. I think this
is in no way a reflection on GWT as a tool and technology. So Google
has decided to move forward with a third initiative designed, in part,
to replace GWT and Closure Tools at Google. So, I look at that and I
am worried about long-term support for GWT. I think that is a
reasonable concern. This concern is mitigated by the fact that GWT is
a fully open-source project. Flex/Flash on mobile browsers _was_
fully supported and look how that turned out. So, corporate support
is no guarantee; open source is actually a safer bet. However, I
would feel a lot better if I had an official roadmap for GWT.

That being said, Ray's comments on what is coming are heartening. The
biggest worry I have for GWT, if Google stops directly supporting it,
is the debug environment. The plugin seems to need a lot of
maintenance because the browsers are moving so fast. The upcoming
support for source-maps mitigates this; I would feel better if I did
not have to rely on a plugin.

I've been working with Dart quite a bit and it is really promising.
However, integration with other Javascript environments is
problematic. For instance, Dart integration with PhoneGap does not
exist and appears to be very challenging (some have tried and decided
to pass on it). This is a non-starter for me. I want to use the
mobile web, but I also want the flexibility of providing an app if my
customers want one. For now, Dart can't do that. This may also be a
problem when trying to integrate a Dart app into Windows 8 Metro. GWT
is far superior in this regard; it has a nice architecture for
integrating with Javascript and many useful implementations, including
a couple for PhoneGap. I'm hoping Javascript integration will be
addressed in the future, but Dart is still in alpha and the team is
working on core features at least until the language gets to 1.0.
Also, because Dart is so young, the tooling cannot compare to Java
tooling. This will improve, but Java has many years head start. The
Dart team is amazing and I am sure they are creating something very
important; I just wish they were 2 more years along.

My window for fence sitting is closing fast. I will have to make a
decision. GWT and Dart are the only real contenders. As of now, I
think GWT is the best choice, but I would sleep better at night if I
had a roadmap under my pillow.

[b0b]

The biggest problem with web frameworks is that you have no visiblity into their future.
And the fact that sometimes Google does not hesisate to can products doesn't help.

The is very must unlike say J2EE which existed 10 years ago and that you can mostly be guaranteed will still exist in 10 years because
so much production critical code use it in the industry.

Being open source helps a bit, but there's many Open Source projects that just die because noone work on it.
And we all know that code that isn't regularly maintained/modernized/updated just dies and become irrelevant.

Athough I do not think GWT risk being abandonned soon, who knows in which state it will eb in 2 or 3 years ?

 

[Mike Dee]

Google needs to step up to the plate.  If you want to be the caretaker for GWT and you want me (and other developers to use it), I need to know what you have planned.  While I'm working on one GWT project now, I will not use it on others until I know what is planned.  I need to know what support there will be for future browsers, the plugin, and Designer.  Informal announcement from Google employees are not good enough.  I also noticed no sessions on GWT at Google IO this year.

Minimally, I'd like to see a commitment like GAE.  Google has agreed to support GAE for three years beyond killing it (should it do so).  Ideally, I'd like to see at least two years of roadmap.

Mike

[kim young ill]

+1

no feedback from googlers ??? look like people who bet on GWT is out of luck now.
i start getting nervous right now

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[Pohl Longsine]

I would expect a certain amount of radio-silence in the few months leading up to Google I/O.  

[Andy Stevko]

With all the turn over and David Chandler moving to the Andriod team...

Who are the Developer Relations person(s) working on the Web Toolkit product?

-- 
-- A. Stevko

===========

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." M. Andretti

[July]

+1

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[Blake McBride]

Here is my own personal opinion about what is going on.

Initially Google was totally dedicated to GWT.  It is a great platform loved by Google and many others.

Oracle is suing Google over Java.  Google doesn't know where this is going to end and is, quite frankly, sick of the idea that Oracle could possibly sue them over use of a largely public platform.  Google doesn't ever want to be in a position to have another company bully them - especially given the very significant time and money Google put in to, in effect, promoting Java.

Given the possibly crazy settlement amount, it is cheaper and less hassle over the long haul if Google just invents in its own stuff and doesn't depend on anything such as Java.

Given this, Google has roughly decided to drop GWT over the long haul and move to some other solution such as Dart.  However, there are two issues.  First, Google doesn't know how the suit will unfold, nor how the public will react to both the suit and diminished support of GWT.  Secondly, Google doesn't know when Dart will be able to totally replace GWT.  These two issues cause Google to be silent.  They don't want to prematurely kill GWT, especially since they aren't totally sure about its future anyway.  They also can't give a roadmap since that would largely be a lie.  The only thing they can do is remain silent.  Look for an announcement about GWT when Dart is ready for prime time.  You can thank Oracle for all of this!

(On another note, IMO, Oracle suing over Java use may go a long way towards killing Java over the long haul.  Nobody wants to live with a possible threat like this from one of the largest companies in the world.)

Blake McBride

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[Blake McBride]

I have an additional comment.

Although I see Google dropping GWT when Dart becomes ready for prime time, I believe GWT will live on as a community project.  Additionally, given Google's internal use of GWT, Google is likely to at least minimally support GWT (for its own needs at least) for a considerable time.  GWT is such a valuable tool and has achieved sufficient level of maturity that I think it'll not disappear.

Lacking an unexpected statement of real commitment, perhaps we should start considering how best to provide community support of GWT.

Blake McBride

[Supercobra Thatbytes]

Obviously something is happening.

One of the first thing you do as a team lead of a project that is going to "disappear" is to remove the developer relations people and reassign team members, which both have been happening in the GWT team. David Chandler, GWT developer relations left the team (https://turbomanage.wordpress.com/) to work on Android and some GWT developers are now working on Dart as per GWT team lead Bruce Johnson (http://googlewebtoolkit.blogspot.com/2011/11/gwt-and-dart.html)

<speculation>

1. I think the GWT team is creating a Dart equivalent to GWT then will retire GWT. However talking about this would scare lots of people off so until they have something big to show and a concrete roadmap they keep silent. If GWT was dropped we would hear about but and I think we are in a transition phase.

2. Since Dart is close to Java in many ways, they could offer Dart on App Engine thus providing a complete solution, UI and backend all on Dart, which would be really cool. That would be a replacement for Java on Android which would break the java-lawsuit-leach Oracle has on Google.

</speculation>

But it's too silent out there... The community needs to be more vocal about requesting some information and the GWT team needs to be more proactive engaging with us.

[Alan Chaney]

Interesting idea, but the issue is that Oracle is suing Google over its use of Dalvik in Android - the basis of the case is that Dalvik breaks the licensing terms of a JDK. Although I totally agree that this may well spread FUD in the long term which will cost Oracle more that it makes out of the suit, the fact is I suspect that the main reason is still that GWT is moving to the maintenance part of its lifecycle

+1

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[Deepak Singh]

GWT 2.5 was supposed to be released in first quarter of 2012 which already passed.

Anybody knows why it was not released yet?

--
Deepak Singh

[Luc Claes]

The two GWT founders, Bruce Johnson and Joel Webber, have left Google and are creating a new startup:
http://www.monetology.com/team

[Roger Studner]

That is one awful looking website.

*eats popcorn*