future of gwt & who use gwt

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krespo

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Oct 22, 2011, 7:15:35 AM10/22/11
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Hallo, I have 2questions:
1. How is the future of gwt , after Dart release ? Will you continuously migrate users into Dart, or Dart hasnt impact on GWT platform ?
(GWT use RPC, but Dart not, it's not java)
2. where can I found some GWT real world applications (please URL) ? 

krespo

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Oct 22, 2011, 7:28:04 AM10/22/11
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I asked it becouse I will start new project(single page app) scalable app, and I'm thinking when is it wort to start new  GWT project, or wait for some time(for example 5months) and start it with Dart ? 

Dennis Haupt

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Oct 22, 2011, 7:45:32 AM10/22/11
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is there a good dart ide? no. question answered. :)

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Thomas Broyer

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Oct 22, 2011, 8:26:31 AM10/22/11
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On Saturday, October 22, 2011 1:15:35 PM UTC+2, krespo wrote:
Hallo, I have 2questions:
1. How is the future of gwt , after Dart release ? Will you continuously migrate users into Dart, or Dart hasnt impact on GWT platform ?
(GWT use RPC, but Dart not, it's not java)

But there hasn't been anything official from Google.
What's clear is that Dart is beta software (maybe even alpha actually)
 
2. where can I found some GWT real world applications (please URL) ?

You're using one at the moment: http://groups.google.com/forum/

A few other: Google AdWords, Google Moderator, Apache (ex-Google) Wave, Google Flight Search

krespo

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Oct 22, 2011, 11:31:47 AM10/22/11
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Yes, I thought statement from google GWT team. I think when going on this forum some people from GWT team,should give us some statement between relationship dart and GWT (or paste on the blog). Without unclear future I can't choose GWT for out project, and I think that more people will be thinking such as I. 

Alan Chaney

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Oct 22, 2011, 12:09:05 PM10/22/11
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@Krespo - if you are seriously worried about the future of GWT w.r.t
Dart, then a quick search on Google gives this:

http://markmail.org/message/uro3jtoitlmq6x7t

Purported to be a leaked internal email, but, who knows?. Open the
email and search for "GWT" - you'll get your answer (for "Dash" read "Dart)

Alan

> more people will be thinking such as I. --


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András Csányi

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Oct 22, 2011, 12:20:01 PM10/22/11
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On 22 October 2011 18:09, Alan Chaney <al...@mechnicality.com> wrote:
> @Krespo - if you are seriously worried about the future of GWT w.r.t Dart,
> then a quick search on Google gives this:
>
> http://markmail.org/message/uro3jtoitlmq6x7t
>
> Purported to be a leaked internal email, but, who knows?.  Open the email
> and search for "GWT" - you'll get your answer (for "Dash" read "Dart)

Long story short:
"What is the future of the JSCompiler and GWT?
JSCompiler and GWT were already on a merger path. This effort gives us a
direction for that unification around the Dash language. We will actively
support teams for a long time on the current generation of JSCompiler and
GWT and provide fantastic co-existence and migration tools to Dash."

Don't worry, it will be supported for long time beside the fact,
according to the linked email, it will be part of bigger something by
the time.


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krespo

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Oct 22, 2011, 1:27:02 PM10/22/11
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when I good understand, google wanted for some period support GWT, but they don't want to extend funciontality of GWT(maybe will recover existing bugs). They want to migrate existing GWT users into DART. 
But in this Dart way I see some disadvantages against GWT eg: 1. java lang on client and server , 2. same model class for client server side ... .I think that there  will be compatibility between java <-> dart and stay RPC mechanism.
What Do you think about my opinion ?

Ed

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Oct 23, 2011, 1:07:15 PM10/23/11
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> Don't worry, it will be supported for long time beside the fact,

Of course, as Google uses it a lot internal, but I think what's more
important: adding new features that people are "waiting" for as time
passes and applications demand more rich features.
I am more worried about the future of GWT's roadmap for new features
as I can imagine that the GWT project get's a lower priority inside
the Google company due to Dart.
Let's hope this won't happen for a very long time.


On Oct 22, 6:20 pm, András Csányi <sayusi.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22 October 2011 18:09, Alan Chaney <a...@mechnicality.com> wrote:
>
> > @Krespo - if you are seriously worried about the future of GWT w.r.t Dart,
> > then a quick search on Google gives this:
>
> >http://markmail.org/message/uro3jtoitlmq6x7t
>
> > Purported to be a leaked internal email, but, who knows?.  Open the email
> > and search for "GWT" - you'll get your answer (for "Dash" read "Dart)
>
> Long story short:
> "What is the future of the JSCompiler and GWT?
> JSCompiler and GWT were already on a merger path.  This effort gives us a
> direction for that unification around the Dash language.  We will actively
> support teams for a long time on the current generation of JSCompiler and
> GWT and provide fantastic co-existence and migration tools to Dash."
>
> Don't worry, it will be supported for long time beside the fact,
> according to the linked email, it will be part of bigger something by
> the time.
>
> --
> - -
> --  Csanyi Andras (Sayusi Ando)  --http://sayusi.hu--http://facebook.com/andras.csanyi

Rori Stumpf

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Oct 23, 2011, 1:57:10 PM10/23/11
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I have a greater fear of having to use plain old Javascript/JQuery and
the minefield of cross-browser compatibility, than GWT's product
path... :-)

Roger Studner

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Oct 23, 2011, 6:55:22 PM10/23/11
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jquery != problem with browser compatibility.

People will make sure jquery 'still works' *long after* Google stops working on GWT and open sources it.

(Not good or bad, just obviously true)

Roger

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krespo

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Oct 24, 2011, 5:17:46 AM10/24/11
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I think, that it should be honest from Google to speak where is true and what will be future of GWT. It's better to speak that future GWT is nothing such as speak nothing. When google not aware this fact, I think it will gradually became haters company (eg Microsoft) in the comunity.

Tomasz Gawel

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Oct 24, 2011, 6:19:54 PM10/24/11
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I still don't understand the need for dart.

if it would be cross-compiled so where is the advantage over gwt? in
gwt we have the language that we allready know and tools that were
worked out over years.
if it will be incorporated into browser as virtual machine than just
why not to incorporate the jvm? licensing issues?

and another thing - javascript is extremely powerful scripting
language. (as far as it is used for scripting -> max 300 lines of code
it's flexibility is a real power. when comes to maintaining bigger
apps this flexibility occurs to be serious flaw, but it the place
where gwt enters the play.

as i look closer at DART i start to suspect that probably it is not to
replace javascript but to replace java (and so avoid dependence to
oracle)
but do they think they can provide something better than java which
gained its maturity over years?


Harpal Grover

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Oct 24, 2011, 6:29:48 PM10/24/11
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This is a very interesting viewpoint in my opinion - "as i look closer at DART i start to suspect that probably it is not to replace javascript but to replace java (and so avoid dependence to oracle) but do they think they can provide something better than java which gained its maturity over years?"

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Andrés Testi

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Oct 24, 2011, 6:51:25 PM10/24/11
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We have Scala to replace Java and it will be available in GWT (see:
http://groups.google.com/group/scalagwt ).

Warren Tang

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Oct 25, 2011, 12:09:45 AM10/25/11
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Another language, oh my...

The death of Go seems to me that Dart is just another experiment of Google. Whether it  will gain popularity or not is under question. Replacing GWT (Java) with something else will definitely drive away many java programmers, who are already overburdened by so many technologies and value making most of their existing skills.

IMHO. the possibility of Google getting rid of Java is low, but Dart is about future, maybe not the near future, maybe the day Java loses its prime time. It could also give Google a good position in negotiating web standards, as Google's eyes are on the web.

Shawn Brown

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Oct 25, 2011, 3:53:46 AM10/25/11
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> The death of Go seems to me that Dart is just another experiment of Google.

When did Go die?

Also, if it were dead, why did Google introduce it in the most recent
AppEngine API? That was two weeks ago.
http://blog.golang.org/2011/10/go-app-engine-sdk-155-released.html

Just asking...

Shawn

Thomas Broyer

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Oct 25, 2011, 7:04:05 AM10/25/11
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[This is not the place to discuss Dart, please follow up on https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/group/misc/topics (which I do not follow) ]


On Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:19:54 AM UTC+2, Tomasz Gawel wrote:

I still don't understand the need for dart.


if it would be cross-compiled so where is the advantage over gwt? in
gwt we have the language that we allready know and tools that were
worked out over years.
if it will be incorporated into browser as virtual machine than just
why not to incorporate the jvm? licensing issues?

Dart is designed so as to be cross-compiled to JS, so there's no impedance mismatch. GWT has to do some really tricky things to compile Java to JS (for instance, in Java every object has a hashCode() method and this causes issues when people try to put DOM elements into maps: http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/issues/detail?id=4086; in Dart, there's a Hashable interface –implemented by very few objects–, and a Hashmap can only use Hashable-s as keys).
 
and another thing - javascript is extremely powerful scripting
language. (as far as it is used for scripting -> max 300 lines of code
it's flexibility is a real power. when comes to maintaining bigger
apps this flexibility occurs to be serious flaw, but it the place
where gwt enters the play.

as i look closer at DART i start to suspect that probably it is not to
replace javascript but to replace java (and so avoid dependence to
oracle)
but do they think they can provide something better than java which
gained its maturity over years?

Oh yeah, dependence to Oracle; not as if they're going to provide MySQL in AppEngine ;-)

Tomasz Gawel

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Oct 25, 2011, 2:25:31 PM10/25/11
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hi thomas,

thanks for link to infoq article about dart - so... it seems my guess
is possibly right :) - but it's long long way ahead.

as to mentioned issue with hashmap - i find it feature rather than
problem. and that case is even not java-javascript but ie specific
implementation issue.
and as to gwt - since this is gwt group - i liked very much the idea
of cross-compilation and possibility of maintaining big client side
application in java. although it was gwt where i came across it the
first time. but than i was not sure about it should try to mimic
common java libraries. maybe sticking only to java "raw" language but
with browser specific libriries would be a better solution? libraries
that vastly utilize something like "JavaScriptObject class" in current
implementation? maybe the wrong business policy was to target with gwt
at existing java developers rather than motivate existing javascript
developers to learn java :)?
but no tool is perfect - especially from its begining - and
imporovements are natural (notice java collections).
gwt is still young, and java at its age was imho less convincing
technology. if it is not due any legal/licensing strategy than i would
stick to java in gwt... "if i were gooogle" ;).

as to mysql - nice to see it on app engine - but this fact does not
undermine the possibility of willingness to became independent from
oracle owned technology.
since mysql community server is open source and GPL licensed, google
is no way dependent on oracle in that case. situation with java is
quite different, and as i remember some time ago microsoft tried to
make its own java, what has been effectively stopped by sun's sue and
trial, utlimately resulting in birth of c# :).

Nagin Kothari

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Oct 26, 2011, 8:11:24 AM10/26/11
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Dart is yet very very young.. .I think it will take more than two years to gain popularity and acceptance(if at all?), also all browser vendors (like Microsoft) acceptance.
So why worry right now about Dart?
Any way new client side technologies keep coming every year. If at all Dart gains popularity in future,I think  Google would provide tool to convert your GWT (java) code to Dart.

-Nagin

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Jens

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Oct 26, 2011, 8:50:30 AM10/26/11
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I think in the future GWT will compile to Dart for browsers that support Dart and compile to JS (using the dart compiler) for older browsers. 

Also it seems like that (typed) Dart syntax is very similar to Java so it should be possible to convert a GWT/Java project to Dart. It wouldn't be completely automatic (deferred binding could be a problem) but I think its doable.

So I think you won't have any downsides of using GWT now. GWT will be supported a long time as its used in a lot of internal google projects. If you do not choose GWT you have to use JavaScript directly. If Dart becomes successful you have the same problem: How to convert a JavaScript application to Dart?. Using GWT I think you have a pretty good chance that GWT will solve this problem for you...

-- J.

Thomas Broyer

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Oct 28, 2011, 11:04:09 PM10/28/11
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David Chandler recently put his SenchaCon slides online:  http://www.dartlang.org/slides/2011/10/senchacon/index.html#39

"What about GWT?
Google is heavily invested"

Warren Tang

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Oct 28, 2011, 11:32:59 PM10/28/11
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The following line is also important:

(GWT) Aiming for fewer releases, less overhaul.

Regards,
Warren Tang <http://blog.tangcs.com>

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Brandon Donnelson

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Oct 31, 2011, 11:16:19 AM10/31/11
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I initial had this thought when it came out but then found the future is bright for GWT. I'm seeing extensive development planned and in progress for GWT after reading posts from the engineers. Even if and when it development does trend to dart, its really similar migration and I believe GWT just might translate to DART.

My two cents :)
Brandon Donnelson

darkflame

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Oct 31, 2011, 11:52:29 AM10/31/11
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For the original posters question of GWT applications out there, I can
offer two of my own modest pieces of work

http://www.rateoholic.co.uk
(A website for reviewing stuff, the whole interface is GWT with a
MySQL/PHP backend)

http://www.cuyperscode.com/cuyperscode/CuypersCode2/CCIIstart.html
(A online dutch adventure game I was commisioned to make the code for,
when the login comes up you can go "Log in als gastspeler!" to play as
guest and test out the interface.)

Both of these still have bugs to iron out, but without GWT it would
probably have been utterly impossible for a single person to have made
these, and be cross browser compatible.

-Thomas Wrobel

Thomas Broyer

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Nov 1, 2011, 6:11:57 AM11/1/11
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I also found out recently that the Google Checkout store gadget is built with GWT.

David Chandler

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Nov 1, 2011, 11:48:38 AM11/1/11
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Hi Warren,

Glad you found my SenchaCon slides (thanks, Thomas--I should have posted them here, too). Let me put some context around "fewer releases, less overhaul." Sencha's Darrell Meyer and Sven Brunken did a huge refactoring of Ext GWT last year to make it more compatible with mainline GWT. This was in part necessitated by all the major changes in GWT since 2.1: Cell widgets, Activities & Places, RequestFactory / AutoBeans, etc. The GWT team has heard from the community quite a few times "please slow down and just make it solid," and we're listening.

As to the first point ("Google is heavily invested"), many of Google's largest projects are built with GWT, and it is widely used within the company. Because GWT is open source, the community will continue to benefit from all the work that Google does on GWT in support of our own projects. This remains one of the great benefits of using GWT.

I apologize for the relative silence on this issue. In general, Google is very careful about making public commitments of any kind and rarely discusses future plans, in part because plans are subject to change.

/dmc

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:32 PM, Warren Tang <warren...@gmail.com> wrote:
The following line is also important:

(GWT) Aiming for fewer releases, less overhaul.

Regards,
Warren Tang <http://blog.tangcs.com>



On Saturday, October 29, 2011 11:04:09 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote:
David Chandler recently put his SenchaCon slides online: http://www.dartlang.org/slides/2011/10/senchacon/index.html#39

"What about GWT?
Google is heavily invested"

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Armishev, Sergey

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Nov 2, 2011, 10:14:54 AM11/2/11
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I think even Google underestimates the power of GWT in such area as refactoring existing MFC C++/Java-Swing GUI clients into Web based. I rewrote MFC C++ client into GWT in a month.  And most of the heavy business logic/calculations been just copy/paste from original C++. Can’t imagine amount of work needed for such app if you use JavaScript

 

-Sergey

 

From: google-we...@googlegroups.com [mailto:google-we...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Chandler
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 11:49 AM
To: google-we...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: future of gwt & who use gwt

 

Hi Warren,

 

Glad you found my SenchaCon slides (thanks, Thomas--I should have posted them here, too). Let me put some context around "fewer releases, less overhaul." Sencha's Darrell Meyer and Sven Brunken did a huge refactoring of Ext GWT last year to make it more compatible with mainline GWT. This was in part necessitated by all the major changes in GWT since 2.1: Cell widgets, Activities & Places, RequestFactory / AutoBeans, etc. The GWT team has heard from the community quite a few times "please slow down and just make it solid," and we're listening.

 

As to the first point ("Google is heavily invested"), many of Google's largest projects are built with GWT, and it is widely used within the company. Because GWT is open source, the community will continue to benefit from all the work that Google does on GWT in support of our own projects. This remains one of the great benefits of using GWT.

 

I apologize for the relative silence on this issue. In general, Google is very careful about making public commitments of any kind and rarely discusses future plans, in part because plans are subject to change.

 

/dmc

 

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:32 PM, Warren Tang <warren...@gmail.com> wrote:

The following line is also important:

(GWT) Aiming for fewer releases, less overhaul.

Regards,
Warren Tang <http://blog.tangcs.com>




On Saturday, October 29, 2011 11:04:09 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote:

David Chandler recently put his SenchaCon slides online: http://www.dartlang.org/slides/2011/10/senchacon/index.html#39

"What about GWT?
Google is heavily invested"

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VisualFox

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Nov 2, 2011, 12:03:37 PM11/2/11
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Thank you for sharing Thomas.

Visualfox.me is a small design and strategy firm and we use GWT since
few years now. Our use of GWT is unorthodox as we focus more on the
visual/design aspect. Actually I think that one of the strength of GWT
which is currently totally underused and underestimated. I was one of
the participant at the developer sandbox at google IO 2010 and while I
tried my best to highlight the benefit of GWT I noticed two things:
- Current GWT developer are generally part of big to medium
corporation and are mostly aiming to translate some legacy software to
an intranet/extranet
- Startup and younger developer tend to don't really care about GWT
mostly because none of the app they use daily are built with GWT (they
went to Google IO for chrome and android)

Our most recent work done with GWT is t3ll.me:
http://t3ll.me/I+AM+AWESOME/BECAUSE+I+AM+MADE+OF+GWT
http://t3ll.me/I+am+not+your+average+and+boring+url/you+should+try+it(red)/(yellow)lol+@+url+are+not+awesome(blue)

t3ll.me use VisualFox-FX and Bold which let you resize any HTML
element to fit in a given box (try to resize your browser while
playing with t3ll.me and you will get the idea).

krespo

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Nov 6, 2011, 2:15:52 AM11/6/11
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Hallo, 
I want ask what do you commend for new project(which option from listed under):
1. Do you commend use GWT ?
2. Do you commend wait some time for dart(in this case how long) ?
3. Do you commend use GWT REST (not RPC) and latter rewrite frontend into Dart ? I anticipate that Dart won't use RPC with java backend ?

-btw We want use java on backend.

VisualFox

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Nov 6, 2011, 9:06:44 AM11/6/11
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Hi Krespo,

Everything depends upon your specific need. So answering these
questions without any background is quite hazardous.

1) yes I mean like YES if you are developing an app - in my experience
GWT is the only valid solution for complex app

2) no

3) yes because you are not willing to use java on the backend. In the
past I had done backend in php, and node.js - node.js was a really
sweet experience

Brandon Donnelson

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Nov 6, 2011, 11:15:40 AM11/6/11
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I think GWT is awesome for any type of web application. 

I think RPC is by far the easiest to use and work with, especially if you're new to GWT. There are many communication paths you can do with GWT and they all work great. 

I'm sure Dart will have some libs to deal with communicating down the road.

Brandon Donnelson

Warren Tang

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Nov 6, 2011, 11:17:08 PM11/6/11
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GWT is good at RIA, but not fit for CMS which values SEO. Actually SEO in all AJAX applications is a challenge. The solution provided by Google (#!) hasn't been adopted by other search engines.

Regards,
Warren Tang
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Brandon Donnelson

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Nov 7, 2011, 9:09:34 AM11/7/11
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Great point. I find a mixed GWT approach works best in this situation so to maximize search spider indexing. I find, it's not that it doesn't work, the angle of approach has to change. One way to use GWT with CMS is to render the HTML via servlet and edit it via GWT or intermixing the GWT like javascript into the HTML. For instance I'll build my editor or tooltips in GWT and fire them when needed with javascript functions in the HTML. I consider GWT just another way to write javascript, but GWT is just one road of many which one could take to write a CMS site with javascript. You're right, content indexing is important. 

Brandon Donnelson

Eric Clayberg (Google)

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Nov 10, 2011, 9:11:21 PM11/10/11
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See... http://googlewebtoolkit.blogspot.com/2011/11/gwt-and-dart.html

The Google Web Toolkit team has been asked recently about our plans following the announcement of the Dart programming language a few weeks ago.


Dart and GWT both share the goal of enabling structured web programming. In fact, many of the same engineers who brought you GWT are working on Dart. We view Dart as an ambitious evolution of GWT’s mission to make web apps better for end users, and we’re optimistic about its potential. As Dart evolves and becomes ready for prime time, we anticipate working closely with the GWT developer community to explore Dart.


Meanwhile, rest assured that GWT will continue to be a productive and reliable way to build the most ambitious web apps — and even games like Angry Birds. Key projects within Google rely on GWT every day, and we plan to continue improving (and open-sourcing) GWT based on their real-world needs.

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