Google Wave is Dead

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Joel Dietz

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Aug 4, 2010, 6:28:02 PM8/4/10
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http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/04/wave-goodbye-to-google-wave/

Kind of strange to actively encourage development by independent developers and promise future code releases while privately planning to kill the project...

RIP Google Wave

Jd / CEO / titaniainc.com

Hemant Shah

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Aug 4, 2010, 6:43:36 PM8/4/10
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This is indeed a disappointing news.

We had started researching Google Wave seriously with the intention for making it a potential platform for use as an Electronic Medical Record backbone. This is both for creating tools to collect clinical data and to develop systems that are knowledge-based, the behavior of which would be guided by knowledge that the domain experts specify.

In particular, we were exploring developing tools that allow collaborative, distributed authoring of Proteus knowledge components and also create mechanisms to execute them to allow collecting clinical data from within Waves. We were inspired by the paper by Googlers, Gaw and Shankar.

I hope at least the development of the Google Wave Protocol continues, even if Google drops the service.

Regards,


Hemant

Hemant Shah M.D., M. Surg.
Senior Research Informatician

Henry Ford Health System
1 Ford Place
Detroit, MI 48202 United States

Call me on Google Voice!


LinkedIn Profile
Email: pro...@gmail.com

Websites:
Proteus
Proteus Open Source Project


 

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Brett Morgan

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Aug 4, 2010, 6:53:00 PM8/4/10
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Rest In Peace, and how she will be missed.
gv.png
icon_in_blue_14x14.gif

Ronald C.F. Antony

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Aug 4, 2010, 7:11:43 PM8/4/10
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This is a real travesty. To cancel Wave due to lack of adoption is pretty short-sighted.

Wave wasn't fully developed, it needed better integration with legacy tools like e-mail, and it needed a fully functional open sourced platform such that federation would be possible. Without these, to hope for mass adoption is foolish, and without mass adoption of course, the expected success will remain a dream.

Wave didn't progress past the stage of being a very advanced technology demonstration for the above mentioned reasons, it's like when GM killed the electric car: it wasn't the fault of technology, but of bad strategy.

So I guess we'll be stuck with e-mail and a variety of IM "standards" for decades to come...
...all I can hope is that Google at least open-sources all the things they wrote to get Wave to this point, so maybe the community picks up and fulfills the promise of Wave.

Ronald

-TJ

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Aug 4, 2010, 7:23:41 PM8/4/10
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Wait...
What's going on?!?!?!?!?



GOOGLE WAVE IS GOING DOWN????
GOOGLE IS DUMPING GOOGLE WAVE!??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!
WHAT????????????????????????????
I DON'T GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN??????????????????

Brett Morgan

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Aug 4, 2010, 7:31:36 PM8/4/10
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Pretty simple really.

Wave had 60+ engineers assigned. If you assume each engineer costs somewhere between 100k and 250k total spend (salary, office space, airfares, accom, shares, ...), then you are looking at somewhere between $6M and $20M a year in project cost. Plus servers, bandwidth, etc, etc. 

To justify that number takes a serious uptake of usage. As the press release says, Wave wasn't seeing the uptake expected. So it got killed, and the engineers will be moved on to other projects that are justifying their cap ex spend.

hth,

brett

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-TJ

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Aug 4, 2010, 7:49:59 PM8/4/10
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This like a nightmare coming true.

=,{

AkiRoss

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Aug 4, 2010, 8:11:06 PM8/4/10
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On Aug 5, 1:31 am, Brett Morgan <brett.mor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pretty simple really.
>
> Wave had 60+ engineers assigned. If you assume each engineer costs somewhere
> between 100k and 250k total spend (salary, office space, airfares, accom,
> shares, ...), then you are looking at somewhere between $6M and $20M a year
> in project cost. Plus servers, bandwidth, etc, etc.
>
> To justify that number takes a serious uptake of usage. As the press release
> says, Wave wasn't seeing the uptake expected. So it got killed, and the
> engineers will be moved on to other projects that are justifying their cap
> ex spend.

Interesting. If I may say something - as a wave fan and user really
disappointed by this (predictable?) decision - is only that wave has
been handled pretty bad.
I'm sure the work done is something big, and that the 60+ engineers
worked hard, but the way in which Google handled the whole thing... I
felt pretty soon that wasn't done right.
Surely, having hype helps when diffusing a product, but I think that
introducing a platform is something pretty big, which requires long
time, strong positions and most of all something that users may
immediately appreciate. Wave has been launched with the formula "we
want you to help us", but to assure the project a long way, you can't
start with still have the standards to be defined. I think that Google
should have first developed a complete and formal system, which - even
if incomplete - could provide evident advantages (as Wave was when it
was released), and immediately make the user base larger by providing
usable API. Wave wasn't like that: the simple client-server protocol
wasn't well defined and it was initially marked as low-priority, but
most users don't care about server-side protocol. Google provides the
Wave service, it's a good start, it's not important if you want it to
become a widespread standard, first of all you must make users in the
position of using that protocol.
I started to look at wave with deep interest. Me as many others,
thought that such platform could lead to new kind of communication
tools, new kind of real-time interaction over the net, but when Wave
has been released, we found only a playground to see if we had ideas
on how to use the GUI you created. I'm not aware about any Python/Java/
C++ API that was enabling users to interact quickly with wave, so
client-side projects and ideas - that are the only things that can
lead to a widely used technology - were precluded. It took a whole
year to see the client Open Source, and still was "too personal to be
quickly used".
Don't get me wrong: this strategy may work. If you open your
technology and state your interests (e.g. replacing mails), some users
may be interested in helping the "low level development", but most of
users don't care about it and the real potential of the project well
be evident only in the long term, because common developers will have
to wait for defined protocols, working APIs, a working set of base
features. This kind of project handling can lead to a pretty quick
diffusion: even if partially wrong and incomplete, users could start
to invent new things using the good platform it is.
Instead, Google mostly said "hey, look how good is this technology.
It's wonderful, but could be better. So, before making it usable, we
expect you to help us in making it even better". This could work, but
you can't expect to make money fast.
Before having a good web client, I think it would have been better to
give APIs that allowed users to develop their new applications, their
new clients, around the platform capabilities.
I always felt that something was wrong with Wave... And that
"something" - I think - were the priorities. The project had the
highest priority to make itself better, before make itself flexible
and usable.
Maybe I missed something, but this is how I see it (and how I
experienced it, when I had to cope with Wave for my interest and for
work).

As a google and wave fan, as programmer who had many ideas about how
to use that platform and as a programmer who waited a long time for an
effective and usable API (which I couldn't find), I'm really hoping
that google don't give up about the whole project. Hoping that if not
60+, at least 2/5 engineers can be kept developing an idea that, at
least, is very good (and the hype was all about this: really a great
idea).

Well, my 2 cents :)
Thanks anyway for all the work done so far.
~Aki

James Jones

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Aug 4, 2010, 8:14:36 PM8/4/10
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I pray none of you took any VC or loans out for any wave project.

Daniel França

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Aug 4, 2010, 9:39:23 PM8/4/10
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I agree
I gave up some projects for wave cause missing API and features.
and no company will adopt that without the federation protocol working.
and how about the speed? why long time after wave is still really slow? is this the XML protocol (it is XML, right?), the client? I don't know, but when I showed google wave to someone, the first thing they noticed is "How slow is that". 


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Matias Molinas

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Aug 4, 2010, 10:17:23 PM8/4/10
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If Wave was dead simply do not justify a note http://techcrunch.com/

Wave is a good product.
If a product is bad no one remembers or mentions it. I think that this
is not the case of Wave

I'm interested in using Wave and making developments using their API

Wave +1 :-)

2010/8/4 Daniel França <daniel...@gmail.com>:

Damian Guppy

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Aug 4, 2010, 10:18:03 PM8/4/10
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To any googlers reading this. Whatever the hell happened to releasing a full wave server and client like promised at IO? Fedone isnt what you promised. Maybe if you stuck to your word adoption would have been better.

Predictable yes, poorly managed even more so.

The least you can do now google if your not going to develop it is make good on your word and open up the source youve been holding back and let the community do what you couldnt.

2010/8/5 Daniel França <daniel...@gmail.com>

Faizal

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Aug 4, 2010, 10:51:30 PM8/4/10
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Hmm :(

Joel Dietz

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Aug 4, 2010, 11:27:57 PM8/4/10
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btw, here is the Google blog version:

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/update-on-google-wave.html

"But despite these wins, and numerous loyal fans, Wave has not seen the user adoption we would have liked. We don’t plan to continue developing Wave as a standalone product, but we will maintain the site at least through the end of the year and extend the technology for use in other Google projects."

I frankly can't believe that Google is going in this direction, buying up profitable gaming companies and canning potentially useful software research because not enough users start using an unfinished product.

btw, where does the 60 + engineers number come from?  I have a difficult time believing anything close to that number were assigned, esp. recently.

Jd / Titania, Inc.


James Purser

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Aug 4, 2010, 11:30:46 PM8/4/10
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Okay, Google Wave may be dead or dying however I don't think it's as
bleak as some may make out.

We have enough of the federation protocol and OT hammered out that it
is quite possible to build something like the Apache Foundation for
Wave. If Google wanted to come to the party with their production
server setups, it would make things so much better.

It is incredibly disappointing that Google has made this decision,
especially before investigating other options to keep development on
the tech going, but I believe it is possible to pull Wave out of the
fire, it'll just take a while.

James

Brian May

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Aug 5, 2010, 12:07:20 AM8/5/10
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I am assuming this is serious. Would like to see some official
confirmation of exactly what this means, maybe on an official web page
somewhere. For all I know it could be a hoax.

On 5 August 2010 09:11, Ronald C.F. Antony <ronald...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a real travesty. To cancel Wave due to lack of adoption is pretty short-sighted.

You can't expect people to change their habits overnight.

> Wave wasn't fully developed, it needed better integration with legacy
> tools like e-mail, and it needed a fully functional open sourced platform
> such that federation would be possible. Without these, to hope for mass
> adoption is foolish, and without mass adoption of course, the expected
> success will remain a dream.

For me the big issue right now is that I purchased an Android phone,
and cannot access Wave on it. So I have used protocols like XMPP
simply because they are more accessible.

However, even if this was not an issue, changing to something
radically different like wave is always going to be a slow process
while people learn how to best make use of the new technology. People
are just too comfortable with current technology (including
limitations).

Another issue, as others have said, is that Google have been
relatively slow to release the open source code - delays in doing so I
think have meant people have lost interest while waiting for this to
occur (for me I just have too many interesting projects - I can't keep
up with all of them). As a result, the decision to end it seems to
have been made before one of the major selling features was realized.

Maybe they seriously underestimated the selling power of making it
open source? As such it wasn't given the priority it deserved? If
everything was open source from day 1, I think it would have generated
a lot more serious long term interest, even if there were problems
with the code.

I feel I could have got more people interested if I could have
installed a server at work. However more people using it at work, I
think would have meant more people using Google's server.
Unfortunately I could not use it in my work environment, because my
company would be nervous about putting private company data on
Google's servers.

I don't know what the future is of Google's Wave server is now, but if
it is ever going to be shut down, the people who were nervous about
putting data on Google's servers will say they were right. In fact
they are probably already saying there were right. Especially as Wave
meant to be a released product (IIRC).

I also hope that Google will now open source the code, so wave can
continue outside of Google. I fear though that Google will not want to
on grounds that the code contains confidential information that cannot
be released, which in turn may kill the community efforts.
--
Brian May <br...@microcomaustralia.com.au>

Brian May

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Aug 5, 2010, 12:12:09 AM8/5/10
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On 5 August 2010 13:30, James Purser <jamesr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We have enough of the federation protocol and OT hammered out that it
> is quite possible to build something like the Apache Foundation for
> Wave. If Google wanted to come to the party with their production
> server setups, it would make things so much better.

Finally some good news!
--
Brian May <br...@microcomaustralia.com.au>

Kyle Roche

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Aug 5, 2010, 12:10:48 AM8/5/10
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It's on the google blog

Sent from my iPhone

Raphaël Pinson

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Aug 5, 2010, 2:04:09 AM8/5/10
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This is very sad news... I do agree as well that I feel Google didn't keep their promise as far as releasing the code goes. As far as I can remember, they actually promised to release the full server and web interface that were in production (the Acme-Wave example shown was actually an example of re-using this web interface). This is really what made the developers and companies hope they would integrate it soon enough. I pity the companies who have invested in this, hoping to get the code within months as was promised.

It would be great if before retiring, Google would be as kind as to stick to their word and not let a community of developers with products that do not have a platform to work on anymore. I also hope that products such as WaveOne (by ProcessOne) will be open-sourced now that they may be the only future for Wave development. 

This might not be the end of Wave, if the community stays behind the project, just like Netscape was kept alive until today through Mozilla.

Long live Wave, whether Google backs it up or not :-)


Raphaël

Andrés Cerezo

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Aug 5, 2010, 2:39:59 AM8/5/10
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Anyone knows if Can I download the google wave server for any site? I was implementing a robot and I would like to continue with it.

Thanks.

2010/8/5 Raphaël Pinson <rap...@gmail.com>

James Purser

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Aug 5, 2010, 3:31:10 AM8/5/10
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The google wave production server is not currently available for
download. We're going to have to wait and see what Google is going to
release (if anything).

2010/8/5 Andrés Cerezo <acerezo...@gmail.com>:

Joseph Gentle

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Aug 5, 2010, 4:19:26 AM8/5/10
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Stay tuned.

-J

ERichardson

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Aug 5, 2010, 6:47:01 AM8/5/10
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Goodbye Google wave, I'll miss you ;(

On Aug 5, 11:19 am, Joseph Gentle <jose...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Stay tuned.
>
> -J
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 5:31 PM, James Purser <jamesrpur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The google wave production server is not currently available for
> > download. We're going to have to wait and see what Google is going to
> > release (if anything).
>
> > 2010/8/5 Andrés Cerezo <acerezoguil...@gmail.com>:
> > > Anyone knows if Can I download the google wave server for any site? I was
> > > implementing a robot and I would like to continue with it.
>
> > > Thanks.
>
> > > 2010/8/5 Raphaël Pinson <raph...@gmail.com>
> > >> google-wave-a...@googlegroups.com<google-wave-api%2Bunsubscribe@ googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > >> For more options, visit this group at
> > >>http://groups.google.com/group/google-wave-api?hl=en.
>
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AkiRoss

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Aug 5, 2010, 11:01:55 AM8/5/10
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Ok the news is pretty well confirmed.

Now let's get serious: what will be done to save and release what has
been done until now?
Will be the material (API, sites, protocols) kept online even with the
project discontinued? I read that this will be kept online until
December, but what then? Everything disappears?

I'm hoping for everyone that a site (even a parallel, community site)
will continue to live and be active, and I'm really hoping that Google
decision won't preclude the continuation of this great work by the
community.

Do someone know if there are already community sites to continue the
project?

~Aki

David Sainte-Claire

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Aug 5, 2010, 11:04:21 AM8/5/10
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As far as I know, Google never released the details on setting up your own server.  I don't think the Federation protocol was ever fully baked.  I could be totally wrong though

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Christopher Harvey

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Aug 5, 2010, 11:40:17 AM8/5/10
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> Do someone know if there are already community sites to continue the project?

There have been several development projects either independently building wave servers (iotaWave is one such) based on the Wave Protocol or using Google's (not complete) FedOne reference implementation.

To me, the most important aspect is whether the Wave Protocol itself (waveprotocol.org) will continue to be supported by those parties interested in Wave federation. That could well depend upon whether the likes of Google, Novell (Pulse), SAP (Streamworks), and IBM (Vulcan) support the protocol.

Chris
--
iotawave.org
Singapore

Eric Kolotyluk

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Aug 5, 2010, 1:07:33 PM8/5/10
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I really think Google is being very short-sighted in how they are
dealing with Wave. The biggest problem is that it was not publicized
nearly wide enough, and was not easily open to enough people soon enough.

I still think the proper thing to do is just integrate Wave with GMail
and give more people good reasons to use GMail.

Wave is one of the best inventions since e-mail itself. It dramatically
improves how people communicate and collaborate. We just haven't been
given long enough to get familiar with it and incorporate it into our
daily lives.

Please Google - don't let Wave die.

Eric Kolotyluk

fabio meira

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Aug 5, 2010, 1:10:35 PM8/5/10
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I agree with Eric. There is no time to the people understand e be used with Wave.

2010/8/5 Eric Kolotyluk <eric.ko...@gmail.com>
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NADIA DOUAJI

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Aug 5, 2010, 1:20:04 PM8/5/10
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we should take a vote on wave ;-)
 

From: fabiolu...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 14:10:35 -0300
Subject: Re: [Google Wave APIs] Re: Google Wave is Dead
To: google-...@googlegroups.com

Tomás Christie

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Aug 5, 2010, 1:48:21 PM8/5/10
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I do completely agree with Eric. But I'm quite sure that eventually Wave will be integrated with Buzz, more than with gmail. To me this would do a lot more sense, since buzz is somehow more collaborative it self than gmail.

I really hope wave grows very big! I really like it A LOT.

Brian May

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Aug 5, 2010, 7:45:32 PM8/5/10
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On 5 August 2010 08:28, Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/04/wave-goodbye-to-google-wave/
>
> Kind of strange to actively encourage development by independent developers
> and promise future code releases while privately planning to kill the
> project...

It kind of irritates me the way Google went about this. They started a
community effort to create something new and unique. They got this
community effort, and things seemed to be happening. When we could
start to see the light at the end of the tunnel, they decided to
cancel the project. Instead of officially informing the community via
their own discussion forums of what is happening, we first find out
via the media outlets. Even then, in their official blog, they haven't
acknowledged the contributions made by extensive community efforts -
just some vague reference to "numerous loyal fans". Its like the
community doesn't matter.

So I really think it was always seen by Google management as a
commercial/proprietary product, despite the fact it was being
advertised as a community effort. That is why it has failed.
Alternatively, Google has shown they don't know how to run a community
project.

They still haven't really explained what this announcement means. Will
people lose data they have on Google Wave?

I would hope that wave can now be forked and developed independently
of Google, with or without Google's help. First step, perhaps, should
be to stop calling it Google Wave.

Even if Google did decide to change their mind and continue running
the show (as other people seem to be suggesting), they would have to
show some serious commitment (e.g. releasing all the code as open
source). Otherwise I wouldn't be able to trust them not to do the same
thing in the future, again.
--
Brian May <br...@microcomaustralia.com.au>

Joel Dietz

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Aug 5, 2010, 10:52:18 PM8/5/10
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I expressed myself more fully in a blog post:

http://www.titaniainc.com/wave/what-was-google-wave-what-could-wave-become/

I think what we are witnessing is a disjuncture between the developers working for Google, many who have been making an incredible effort to push things forward and foster the community, and Google's clueless upper management, which can't even seem to remember that it promised the developer community anything a year ago and wants to use all of the cool features of wave primarily to improve existing products. That said, I think they are sensitive to the fact that there is an active community which is precisely why they letting the media handle things and avoiding the harder questions about their fulfillment of previous commitments. My guess is that they simply hope to turn off the site as soon as possible and hope that the media attention fizzles and moves on to the next greatest thing (e.g. Farmville II). 


alexandrojv

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Aug 7, 2010, 2:05:20 AM8/7/10
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Lol Farmville II but yeah my thoughts exactly! Plus the math
calculation of the derivative of the second curve which represents
supposedly the success of a product is bogus

On Aug 5, 9:52 pm, Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I expressed myself more fully in a blog post:
>
> http://www.titaniainc.com/wave/what-was-google-wave-what-could-wave-b...
> > google-wave-a...@googlegroups.com<google-wave-api%2Bunsubscribe@ googlegroups.com>
> > .

gengstrand

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Aug 7, 2010, 1:45:05 PM8/7/10
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Can anyone here explain what significant functionality is in the
server that you couldn't get out of XMPP? There are already two stable
and mature open source server projects out there. Google has
contributed to the openfire server and Tigase is still very active
with a new release coming out in September.

I have posted my opinions on why Google Wave died over at
http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/future-of-work/google-wave-rip-40451 and
would be interested in your opinions too.


On Aug 5, 8:04 am, David Sainte-Claire <dsaintecla...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> As far as I know, Google never released the details on setting up your own
> server.  I don't think the Federation protocol was ever fully baked.  I
> could be totally wrong though
>
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 8:01 AM, AkiRoss <akirosspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ok the news is pretty well confirmed.
>
> > Now let's get serious: what will be done to save and release what has
> > been done until now?
> > Will be the material (API, sites, protocols) kept online even with the
> > project discontinued? I read that this will be kept online until
> > December, but what then? Everything disappears?
>
> > I'm hoping for everyone that a site (even a parallel, community site)
> > will continue to live and be active, and I'm really hoping that Google
> > decision won't preclude the continuation of this great work by the
> > community.
>
> > Do someone know if there are already community sites to continue the
> > project?
>
> > ~Aki
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Google Wave API" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to google-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > google-wave-a...@googlegroups.com<google-wave-api%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

Joel Dietz

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Aug 7, 2010, 6:35:41 PM8/7/10
to google-wave-api
OT was an incredible improvement and, as I understand it, OT + XMPP with a standard protocol would have been a phenomenal improvement even w/o any Google provided GUI.

There is more discussion of the technical details (and how to save them) on a similar thread over on the Wave Protocol group.

Strongly recommended:

http://groups.google.com/group/wave-protocol/browse_thread/thread/8c9f65092521cd1d



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