Google Map Profile shows incorrect phone number but cannot be fixed

[Graham Ginsberg]

Search for "Naples Florida Real Estate" and you find

3757 Tamiami Trail North, Naples, FL 34119, United States Phone: +1 239-404-4221, +1 888-655-1325.
Status: Pending (8 edits)

This is an error

The correct phone number is +1 239-404-4221

not

+1 888-655-1325

and the term 'The Real Estate Leaders" is not associated with "Naples Florida Real Estate" or the owner "Graham Ginsberg" either

You will notice that even when corrects have been made and approved by your Google Map volunteers, that the profile will revert back to its incorrect status by a Google BOT. This has gone on for years, starting with merged pictures, now merged terms and merged phone numbers.

Attempts have been made and suggested by your Google Map volunteers to delete the profile and create a new one under Graham Ginsberg' but this too has failed.

Your help is appreciated

My correct business info:

Link to your local Google+ page (previously known as a Place page):https://plus.google.com/104611218457843758565#104611218457843758565/posts
Business name (as it is in your account):GRAHAM GINSBERG
Business location: Street address, City, State/Province, Country 3757 TAMIAMI TR N, NAPLES FL, 34103 USA
Business telephone (as it is in your account): 239-404-4221
Business category (e.g. hospital, etc.):REAL ESTATE
Website:http://www.naples-fl-real-estate.com

[Zann]

Have you verfied that the 8 pending edits don't correct the wrong information?

[Graham Ginsberg]

@Zann - This is a simple fix. To remove the wrong phone number. Those who verify the situation, can access the website given and see the correct number is 239-404-4221 or they can call me.

[Zann]

When I search for Naples Florida Real Estate i get 110835 results.

Can you provide a link to the place?

[Andrew Sawyer]

Graham, I'll take a look and clear out those pending edits and fix the phone number which I assume one of the pending edits fixes. I'm on my phone so it'll be a few hours. The deeper issues I only know so much about and will go down the trouble shooting road once I take a peak at what's going on with your GMM feature et al.

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQdY...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 12:25:03 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Google Map Profile shows incorrect phone number but cannot be fixed

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[Graham Ginsberg]

@Andrew. As you can see in the history I think it was one of your approvals that got reverted/undone by a Google Bot.

This stuff is way over my head and I can give you tons of other examples of similar issues that seems to be relating to merging bot issuess that obviously should be addressed in their coding.

PS> I will be grateful if you call me 239-404-4221 if you have questions or are unsure of the correct intent/meaning/truth of my profiles

Thanks
Graham

[Graham Ginsberg]

@Zann you should be in Google Maps when searching for "Naples Florida Real Estate" or just try searching for the number "888-655-1325" which is not my number but appears on my profile

[Stevestr-CO/IL/CA]

If your business is still operating why are there several requests to mark it closed that are pending?

The Mapmaker link to the business: http://goo.gl/fuX1v

Shows a pending edit of:

Changed on Jul 29, 2012 6:12pm

Place marked as closed

And again:

Changed on Aug 14, 2012 3:25pm

Place marked as closed

AND has a request from Google Maps itself to report the business as closed:

Graham Ginsberg

3757 Tamiami Trail North, Naples, FL 34103, United States

Category: Real Estate Agency

Place closed

Pending

Changed on Jul 29, 2012 6:12pm

Place marked as closed

Interesting notes about this edit:

• User is new to making edits of this kind

Possible duplicate(s) found.

J C Drainfield, Inc.(Details) 5805.8m away 768 Commercial Boulevard, Naples, FL 34104, United States Category: Plumber

Approve Deny Report SpamRequest Details (This option is not available for Google Maps edits.) 

[Andrew Sawyer]

I denied the closed/removed changes as the Google +Local page correctly links to the GMM feature page. You can confirm this by clicking edit on your +Local page and grab the number after cid and append it to "  http://www.google.com/mapmaker?gw=90&cid=" I approved the phone number changes and suggest that if you made them via Maps you should avoid making multiple sequential edits when there is an existing pending edit. Let me know if you have any issues but I searched for your name via Google using "graham ginsberg naples real estate" and the Map Infobox showed up on the upper-right corner. I am going to go back and Rate the edits for the bots, but you should look around the Interwebs and see if there is old data you can "clean up." Bots I believe source data or the validity of data from the internet I suspect. 

[Graham Ginsberg]

Thanks Andrew. Yes, I notice "Graham Ginsberg" now shows the 9 reviews and correct phone number and webs address, as it should be :-)

The only ting it shows in http://www.google.com/mapmaker is that it has 1 still PENDING but won't show what, so not sure why it not completed yet.

If there is something I have to do pls let me know (in simple terms)

On the other side of the issue, if you search in http://www.google.com/mapmaker for 888-655-1325 (my competitors phone number), my name (graham Ginsberg) and the merged account of my competitor "Your Real Estate Leaders", also shows. Somehow it still thinks we're connected.

[Graham Ginsberg]

Stevestr-CO I appreciate the concern, but Andrew has a handle on it and has made some changes.

Its a complicated situation that would take about 1000 words to explain, but I think we may be getting towards it being solved.

The person that hid references to the company I work for on their site, has since removed the text.
This was after months of promting by myself, others and law enforcement.

[Graham Ginsberg]

Andrew, still shows on my 239-404-4221 Google Map profile

Status: Pending (1 edits) · Review


Why is it still showing Pending? What needs to be done to wrap this up? A paypal account?

[Andrew Sawyer]

You can always send me Paypal money, but that isn't needed to approve the pending edit. The edit that is pending is the one I made that you approved. It will stay pending until a RER or Google Reviewer approves it or multiple non-Trusted Reviewers. A pending edit doesn't affect your feature as far as I know.

[Graham Ginsberg]

Thanks Andrew, for caring about this flaccid situation.

I had no idea that RER or Google Reviewers needed to approve it over your efforts

[Andrew Sawyer]

@Graham, you're welcome. Our RER "powers" as a Trusted Reviewer only extend to reviewing. Our editing powers are no different than if we weren't a RER. Same goes for most Google Reviewers.

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQdY...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:58:18 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Google Map Profile shows incorrect phone number but cannot be fixed

Thanks Andrew, for caring about this flaccid situation.

I had no idea that RER or Google Reviewers needed to approve it over your efforts

[Graham Ginsberg]

Andrew, I noticed "Google Reviewer Seandor" has made a few changes to my maps profile, even though your changes are still pending.

I thought it wasn't a good idea to stack 'pendings' but its happening now by "Google Reviewer Seandor"

Maybe I should just delete this profile, get a new phone phone number and relocate my business to another address
Your thoughts
Also I would like to file for a DBA (fictitious name) and use that instead as the business name
thnks

[Andrew Sawyer]

@Graham I'll have to check out her edits when I'm by a computer.

If you go with a DBA you will likely not be able to use your current address and will have to use your home address. Which will require you to set up a Service Area Business feature and comply with those requirements. I'm not sure why you want to keep tinkering, as your set up is good right now. 'If it aint broke, don't fix it!'

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQdY...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:47:42 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Google Map Profile shows incorrect phone number but cannot be fixed

[Graham Ginsberg]

12:34 PM (1 hour ago)

Other recipients:

Hi Andrew

From the get go my business profile name has been Naples Fl Real Estate because this is the name of my website and its SEO friendly.
Google had no issues with that but made a recommendation that it be my actual name.
This was changed to my name Graham Ginsberg for one main reason and that was to fix and untangle the unholy marriage of a competitors mapping profile which ties them into the same address. I even had my home address at one point intermingled with my competitors pictures and phone number.

I would like to create a DBA (fictitious name) for my business and have a different business address which will be filled with the business and possibly a different phone number. I will conduct business from that address.

PLs tell me iff I am wrong, but I see no prohibition in doing this under the current TOS here

http://support.google.com/places/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=107528

Under www.sunbiz.org it will show the new Mailing Address, Fictitious Name and Owner Information
On my www.naples-fl-real-estate.com it will show the new Mailing Address, Fictitious Name and Owner Information

This costs quite a bit to setup so I would appreciate any help before laying out the credit card.
 

[Andrew Sawyer]

I am not going to advise you on how to set up your business. In Mapmaker & Places you have to conduct business from a Physical Address. Once you set up a DBA your professional listing should be marked closed as you cannot have multiple listings. A DBA is nothing more than you working for yourself under a different name.

If you conduct business from your home you will have to hide your address unless you set up "office hours." My advise is you don't want to go down that road given your presence now. And if you try to game the system and Google figures it out they likely will wack anything connected to you, aka everything goes bye-bye and your SEO takes a nose dive. Flash, others here and people over in Places will likely tell you the same thing I am.

Again, if it aint broke, don't fix it!

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQdY...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 09:34:05 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Google Map Profile shows incorrect phone number but cannot be fixed

Hi Andrew

From the get go my business profile name has been Naples Fl Real Estate because this is the name of my website and its SEO friendly.
Google had no issues with that but made a recommendation that it be my actual name.
This was changed to my name Graham Ginsberg for one main reason and that was to fix and untangle the unholy marriage of a competitors mapping profile which ties them into the same address. I even had my home address at one point intermingled with my competitors pictures and phone number.

I would like to creating a DBA (fictitious name) for my business and have a different mail address which will be filled with the business and possibly a different phone number. I will not conduct business from that address, but cover a service area, as you point out.

PLs tell me iff I am wrong, but I see no prohibition in doing this under the current TOS here

http://support.google.com/places/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=107528

Under www.sunbiz.org it will show the new Mailing Address, Fictitious Name and Owner Information
On my www.naples-fl-real-estate.com it will show the new Mailing Address, Fictitious Name and Owner Information

This costs quite a bit to setup so I would appreciate any help before laying out the credit card.

 

[Graham Ginsberg]

Do you really think I would post on a Google profile forum if I wanted to 'game the system'. I might be dumb, be I am not that dumb.

I have shown how messed up my profile was and it still is with people making changes to it. I am not ranking in the maps for the search term naples fl real estate, but used to. The only reason I bother is to get business from this profile and visibility. " if it aint broke, don't fix it!"

Its broke. Because the name value given, as it is, has no meaning in the results. My profile has for the longest time been Naples Fl Real Estate and not Graham Ginsberg and that is what I will have to have WITHOUT some competitors phone number or pictures squatting on it.

I am spending tons of money right now, to relocate my business to a new address and do a DBA, so that my business and my business name can be found as it always was.

I will take your suggestion and close the profile when the DBA takes place. I will also wait for the physical address to be verified and finalized.

Hopefully after all this, my normal "Naples Fl Real Estate" profile will be ok.

Thanks for answering and attempting to correct this

PS> I spoke at The City of Naples council meeting today (live on TV oooh) and they appear to have issue with Google's marker placement, as far as I know. Their county manager is looking into it and will take whatever action is necessary

[Andrew Sawyer]

Plenty of people admit to gaming the system and/or Guidelines violations on Google for Business forum. You aren't ranking with your old name likely because you didn't have a business under that name with a permanent address separate from the Sun Reality location. That's called gaming the system. You admitted to creating the name for SEO purposes.

Its a violation in Places to use locations in Business names that aren't part of official business names. The only reason I left it on your Profile is because its the title of your website. I marked the name Obscure because its not a legal business name as you're only a real estate agent and so the bots wouldn't screw up the feature for your professional listing.

Good luck on the new business. I also look forward to seeing what the City Council comes up with. But I doubt the center will change to City Hall on Google Maps.

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQdY...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:10:41 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Google Map Profile shows incorrect phone number but cannot be fixed

[Graham Ginsberg]

A Sole Proprietorship : A sole proprietorship, also known as the sole trader or simply a proprietorship, is a type of business entity that is owned and run by one individual and in which there is no legal distinction between the owner and the business.

The business on the profile has nothing to do with Sun Realty other than the location. Its my personal business profile. The address could be my house or any office space I rent or the brokerage address. A Sole Proprietorship is a business. Are you saying it is not having said "you're only a real estate agent"?

Please clarify this point that Google does not consider a Sole Proprietorship a BUSINESS.

Also, many businesses use SEO terms to attract business. This is not gaming anything or trying to scam someone. Its being business savy, something you need to learn to survive in business or fold as a socialist or communist entity were no competition is needed or required.

 See www.marcoislandrealestate.com and their name is similar. This is just smart business. This happens to be a brokerage, but it could be a Sole Proprietorship as well and I see nothing in Google TOS that has an issue with the Sole Proprietorship.

[Graham Ginsberg]

According your best opinion of the TOS guidelines today am I correct in assuming the following?

If I want my legal business name as "Naples Fl Real Estate" on Google places as a different address than the brokerage and my home address...

1. The business cannot be a DBA, but at minimum an LLC
2. The business must have a physical building address (not PO box) where I can conduct my business

Thanks Andrew

[Andrew Sawyer]

You missed my point. Using Sun Bridge's address to run a separate business from is suspect. Under the guidelines you get your own listing because its considered a Professional Listings. Google doesn't treat separate businesses as Professional Listings.

Also bringing up sole-proprietorship is meaningless in this context because Google treats your Professional Listing as one at the Sun Bridge location. Because you work for Sun Bridge you can't use their address for a separate business, especially one that has location names. You can create your own business at a physicial address that you are at and meet customers at. Places has guidelines for how to set that up.

We strive for accuracy and uniformity here at Map Maker, and in no way focus on how to make anyone rank higher; as that is not the function of the map. Similarly, the label for the city will be placed where it is most logical for a map, not where it will better benefit businesses.

Maps is a listing of what people can visit; for businesses that is defined as places that a map user can identify and get helped as a customer.

Google has rules to prevent people from engaging in certain behavior. I'd read both the MapMaker and Places guidelines and visit the Places forum to see the common missteps people make.

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQdY...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:47:31 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Google Map Profile shows incorrect phone number but cannot be fixed

A Sole Proprietorship : A sole proprietorship, also known as the sole trader or simply a proprietorship, is a type of business entity that is owned and run by one individual and in which there is no legal distinction between the owner and the business.

The business on the profile has nothing to do with Sun Realty other than the location. Its my personal business profile. The address could be my house or any office space I rent or the brokerage address. A Sole Proprietorship is a business. Are you saying it is not having said "you're only a real estate agent"?

Please clarify this point that Google does not consider a Sole Proprietorship a BUSINESS.

Also, many businesses use SEO terms to attract business. This is not gaming anything but trying to scam someone. See www.marcoislandrealestate.com and their name is similar. This is just smart business. This happens to be a brokerage, but it could be a Sole Proprietorship as well and I see nothing in Google TOS that has an issue with the Sole Proprietorship.

[Andrew Sawyer]

To answer your recent question:

1. You could have a DBA but you likely can't have it at the Sun Bridge address and
2. You have to have a business under the name people do business by/look for and at a physicial address.

As a realator I don't know the ethic/legal implications of doing business under a DBA and you may want to make sure you don't run afoul of The Man.

Read the Guidelines and places forums and don't do what people do to get their businesses deleted from the Map.

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQdY...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:29:21 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Graham Ginsberg <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Google Map Profile shows incorrect phone number but cannot be fixed

[Graham Ginsberg]

Its entirely possible that a branch office of Sun Realty is the right way to go, in a new location.

In which case, the sign would read on the door " Sun Realty - Gary L Hicks...."

Question: In the case of a branch office, that I will as an agent of the brokerage will do business out of, how will this be shown in my Google Places and Map profile?

I assume the choices would be Graham Ginsberg (without DBA) and address
or Graham Ginsberg with Sun Realty

[Willy Hrachovina]

This is likely something you need to discuss with the people in the Places forum. Even though some users here are knowledgable about how Places works, you would get better answers over there.

[Graham Ginsberg]

Andrew. I have opened my office at 780 5th Ave South #200, Naples FL 34102
The Places confirmation is complete and I have edited my Map profile but had an issue with the street name.

The "5th Ave South" street is not auto propagating in the edit options.

Hopefully my dissociation from the old Sun Realty office address will help this mixing of my profile with other real estate agents from happening again.
I would appreciate it if you could adjust the Google Map marker

PS> Do you know of the forum for Google rich snippets? Mine used to show, but since these issues of profiles arose, they're now gone.

[Andrew Sawyer]

@Graham, you can edit the marker if you so choose. But I question if you'll be able to use your new chosen address as it is a virtual office. Please elaborate on the specifics of your arraignment at this new location.

I am not sure what you mean by "Google rich snippets."

(Note: Reposting here, as I Deleted prior post which had posted to a new thread)

[Graham Ginsberg]

Andrew. The new location on 5th is about to be a licensed branch office of Sun Realty. Sun Realty has many branch offices of different configurations in Florida where an agent can choose to business from. I originally chose the Naples 41 location because it was the only one in Naples. Now the new one on 5th is to conduct RE business when meeting clients. Its no different than the location on US 41 where I did the same.

I understand Google having an issue with a UPS box, and there is one in the area that many businesses use, but its not a location to hang your RE sign and to meet clients. This is not the case at my new office. Try calling the UPS on 9th to have them schedule a meeting in their conference room. If you're saying that you have an issue with my new office, please be specific and quote the Google TOS so I can understand their point of view.

"Google rich snippets." are those small thumbnail pics representative of their Google+ profile page that you see in search results recently. Usually indicative of publisher or authorship. Mine were there, one of the first in fact, but since have started to disappear.

[Graham Ginsberg]

GOOGLE PLACES TOS

http://support.google.com/places/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=107528

Business Location: Use a precise, accurate address to describe your business location.

    * Do not create a listing or place your pin marker at a location where the business does not physically exist. P.O. Boxes are not considered accurate physical locations.
    * If you need to specify a mail box or suite number within your physical location, please list your physical address in Address Line 1, and put your mail box or suite number in Address Line 2.
    * Use the precise address for the business in place of broad city names or cross-streets.
    * Do not create more than one listing for each business location, either in a single account or multiple accounts.
    * Businesses that operate in a service area, as opposed to a single location, should not create a listing for every city they service. Businesses that operate in a service area should create one listing for the central office or location and designate service areas. Learn how to add service areas to your listing.
    * If you don't conduct face-to-face business at your location, you must select "Yes, this business serves customers at their locations" under the "Service Areas and Location Settings" section of your dashboard, and then select the "Do not show my business address on my Maps listing" option.
    * Businesses with multiple specializations, such as law firms and doctors, should not create multiple listings to cover all of their specialties. You may create one listing per practitioner, and one listing for the hospital or clinic at large.
    * Do not include information in address lines that does not pertain your business’s physical location (e.g. URLs, keywords).

ANDREW: Not sure if this is the right TOS, but my business location is NOT a PO BOX and is a location to DO BUSINESS and meet clients. This by the way comes at quite a cost. I see no prohibition in the above TOS. This doesn't mean that Google can change its mind and it shouldn't matter that Yahoo and Bing are doing the same without any prohibitions.

[Andrew Sawyer]

Here are some links for you: Add a Place (GMM),  Service Area Business (GMM) and Google Places quality guidelines. 

If there is no physical office where business is conducted by you or Sun Reality neither can have a MapMaker feature at that location. "Meeting places" are not permitted locations for features. 

From the Places guidelines: "Businesses that operate in a service area should create one listing for the central office or location and designate service areas" and "Do not create more than one listing for each business location, either in a single account or multiple accounts."

In general Places has been shutting down locations without a proper storefront like crazy for serveral months. The Places forum is a good indication of that. If you don't have a sign visible from the street and don't have a Sun Realty office employee stationed there full time, chances are they will shut you down too. Especially since all it took was a simple Google search to learn your address is a virtual office.

--

[Graham Ginsberg]

According to your example Add a Place (GMM), 

Before you start mapping, ask yourself a few basic questions:

• Is this business legal? YES
  
• Does this place have a permanent physical location where people can go and complete their business transaction? YES
  
• Is this point of interest or business open to the public? YES

No different than any other professional office where you can make an appointment.

What I am looking for is the rules and far as I can see there is no issues here, but that doesn't stop someone making an issue out of it. I also looked at your other links. Bottom line here Andrew. If someone, yes we're talking human here. If someone in Google wants to take you out of the glorious system, they will. Be you as 'law abiding' as honest Abe Lincoln.

This is so complicated that maybe Google should have just 1 listing for the brokerage name and none for the agents. I suggest you offer that to the masses.

[Andrew Sawyer]

Well since you read the rules; happy mapping!

P.S. Lincoln wasn't law abiding. 

[Graham Ginsberg]

Getting back to your original statement Andrew:

"@Graham, you can edit the marker if you so choose. But I question if you'll be able to use your new chosen address as it is a virtual office. Please elaborate on the specifics of your arraignment at this new location"

Are willing to adjust (authorize or whatever as you have in the past) my Google map profile to reflect my new business location?

Side note. If you are in the majority of Googlers that do NOT want virtual offices (whatever they are) on the Google map, do some blogging about it. Create some very clear rules that we can all know from whence Google cometh, because the 3 links above are no clear indication of your intent to abolish all offices of this type from the Google map.

[Flash]

There is nothing complicated about it.  At least nothing complicated from Google's end.  Sun Realty gets one listing at their proper office.  Since you are an agent there, you can have a listing at the same location.  You are attempting to increase exposure and pick where in town you appear; in doing so you are making it complicated.  Google is aware that people try that, and they shut them down all the time.  There will never be hard and fast rules, as if you make them then someone will come up with a new way to try to increase exposure and point to those rules as justification.  There are guidelines that outline what you are not to do, and if think you've found a sneaky way to just slide by those guidelines, then that should be your first hint that it is not what Google is seeking and so they will not allow it.  If necessary, they will change the guidelines should many start to do the same thing.

When reviewers look at edits, we look at the spirit of the guideline.  If we feel that someone is trying to skirt that underlying purpose, we will put the edit is a special queue for high level Google people to review.  I have yet to see one that I put there that didn't get denied; usually if it gives a reviewer an iffy feeling then he's right.

Google has always operated this way, not just with Maps, but also with Search itself.  Whenever you try to find a way to gain an unearned advantage over the competition, expect Google to say No to it.

By the way, looking at the Places guidelines to justify a Map Maker edit makes no sense at all.  Andrew quoting them was to do with the fact that he knows you intend to claim it, but we don't look at them when editing or approving in Map Maker.

[Andrew Sawyer]

@Graham, I am not convinced your new arrangement is in keeping with the GMM and Places guidelines so I am hesitant to approve your feature. If I'm not sure, I visit the location. If I can't then I don't approve. I review according to the Reviewing Guidelines and my own common sense. I have given you my reservations about your new feature. 

P.S. I am not sure why I should do some blogging about virtual offices.  

[Graham Ginsberg]

In ref to "P.S. I am not sure why I should do some blogging about virtual offices." - because Googles guidelines are not clear enough to substantiate your bias.

Your statement about a business only being legit in your eyes if it has a sign outside and a secretary working solely for them is ludicrous. Can you emmagine what the office building of the Empire State Bldg would look like if everyone had a sign outside?? LOL

Secondly do you know how many small businesses have a secretary working for several businesses? So they all in fact employ a single person.

In my instance a sign will be in accordance to the laws of having a branch real estate office and the person handling the rented offices works for all the tenats jointly.

Andrew, seeing you're willing too take a drive by, go meet Fiona. She runs an upscale office. We like top shelf at Sun Realty, one of the few 100% companies in Florida.
Also Google "Naples Florida Real Estate" and "Naples Florida Lawyers" and drive by those buildings too. You're going to be a busy fellow finding signs and secretaries and who employs who.

Like I said, if you want to impress your opinion and make life difficult for someone within your Google techie capacity, you have every right to do so.

This blog will be forwarded to several in the real estate industry and we will monitor the situation closely. We have over 300 agents and this 'policy' you suggest can affect 100's of thousands of small businesses and branch real estate offices.

I also look forward to seeing if Google Map's will change their marker location to the desires of the City of Naples Council, who has requested that Google relocate it to CITY HALL.

Best of luck Andrew, to you and your family

[Graham Ginsberg]

@ Flash -  I've asked you in the past when I have posted that you should not post in response, yet you continue. Please stop stalking me.

You are trying to demonize me, something I take issue with. This is my last communication with you and after that I will consider it cyber stalking. [My attempt at contacting you was because I saw you were willing to make an effort to help, but did not like your online personality, which I find is sometimes different than when you speak to the person. In your case your phone personality is quite ok whicle your forum tone is not. That is why I do not appreciate you comments.]

You wrote "You are attempting to increase exposure" - No FLASH. My Google profile was constantly mixed with another agent's profile from the same company, at the same address, showing their phone number next to my business name, which was diverting my leads to THEM. This recent attempt of opening a branch office is to further distance myself from this past address and problem, which Andrew attempted to fix and the Google automated bots reverted his changes, which proliferated the problem.

[DdDave]

The problem with virtual offices and common meeting spaces is that they can be abused exactly the same way post-office boxes are.  Companies could easily claim to work out of an office to increase their exposure, because the office is theoretically available for them to use even if they never exercise that option.  I'm not saying that you are abusing anything, I'm sure that you do use this office but it would be impossible for reviewers to assess the legitimacy of a business, and there are those out there that would put a marker on every virtual office in town to increase their exposure.

A physical presence needs to be maintained so the general public can visit it at anytime during set business hours, otherwise it's not adding any value to the map.  I'm sure Fiona is a wonderful person, but if I showed up right now to the office I would not be able to speak to anyone at your company, so it's not a business location.

[Graham Ginsberg]

Thanks for your input Dave. It got me thinking about your concerns.

According to the State of Florida, a branch office is a 'real business' location. Its no where close to a UPS box. Its also not a park bench to meet customers. Its defined and has laws governing it.

Your point about "general public can visit it at anytime during set business hours" - Ever tried to meet a lawyer when you choose? Or maybe a doctor in his office at the drop of a hat? Generally the public needs to make an appointment. We do not operate a cafeteria.  Fiona, as example, will take your information and likely get in touch with her renters. Why shouldn't she? You may have to wait in the lobby for a while, but you'll be taken care of by a Sun Realty Agent sooner rather than later. Its in our best interest to serve the public.

You said "adding any value to the map" - So if you could do a real estate transaction in say downtown Naples, because this is where you're eating lunch, its of no value to you that a real estate BRANCH OFFICE office is on the 2nd floor above you?

Your comment about Google's concerns of businesses running rampant, opening up cyber offices maybe real, but this is not the case here and I'm not responsible for the acts of those that do.

For those of you that want to visit our new office at 780 5th Av South #200, please do so and tell me if you were not impressed and if you didn't get the help you came for. I can guarantee you that an agent is not going to hang about waiting for you but we will take care of you as soon as we can.

Again, I appreciate your opinion

[DdDave]

You have some good points, I agree that not all businesses accept customers without an appointment, so that's certainly valid.

Unfortunately there needs to be consistency in how the rules are applied.  Either virtual offices and meeting centers are allowed, in which case we will end up with millions of spam edits (i.e. PO boxes), or they are not allowed, in which case your business should not be added.  I absolutely believe that you operate out of this meeting center, but it's too difficult for reviewers to vet out every listing to determine which ones are spam and which ones are valid for features like this.

Ideally, there would be some system for verification that Google could maintain, but until Google comes up with something it's going to be impossible to judge each one with our limited resources as volunteers.

The other problem with these locations is that if we start allowing them, where do you draw the line?  Is there a minimum number of meetings you have to have before it's valid?  Does it matter if you pay monthly or per use?  If you use more than one meeting location, are you allowed multiple POIs?  What if you borrow an office from a friend when you need it, could you add a POI there?  If you like to meet clients in a coffee shop, can a POI go there?  I'm being facetious with the last one, but you can see that the line could be broadly blurred, allowing pretty much anything.

Anyway, I don't work for Google and I don't claim that my opinions are correct, I just think that allowing businesses to add POIs at meeting centers and virtual offices is going to result in a pile of spam.  I can also see that there may be some valid cases, the problem is differentiating between them, which is something for Google to weigh-in on.

All the best Graham.

[Graham Ginsberg]

@Dave - Google cannot police the world. It cannot even police itself [my example below on identity theft]

Comparing an office like mine and a PO Box or a UPS store is ludicrous. Our branch office will remain on 5th as long as I see fit, regardless of Google's policy or the opinions of their volunteer staff on the Google forums. Google makes it quite clear not to use a PO Box as a business, but Google has not made clear any prohibition of an office like mine. What we are seeing is the opinions of volunteers, which have indeed some weight, but if left unchecked, do in themselves lead to abuses.

Yahoo and Bing don't have an issue with my office. Yes, both have business listings and mapping features.

I have done the best I can to deal with the most unfortunate policies Google has created. Google created automatic systems that will modify our business profiles, without our permission. These BOTS will even undo the changes of your Google volunteer staff on these forums. I have created Youtube examples of this, where for years my profile has been married to my competition's. Here is one such video warning the public of these shenanigans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9oh6fpExtw

Changing my office location/address, was in direct response to this ongoing issue. It has been very tiresome and expensive, in a tough economy.

Those that question the nature of my office on 5th Ave South are welcome to visit it Mon - Fri or call me 239-404-4221
If spamming Google was my goal, I could have opened a business UPS box with an address, not a PO Box down the road from my present location for a fraction of the price. Many businesses use it. I do not.

[Graham Ginsberg]

Dave, you have to see this. Classic Google bot screw up. This is whats been going on. Even though I have now relocated my business, this damn number keeps following my profile. See the attached picture and laugh or cry

[Graham Ginsberg]

Google's helpers in India

They visited my site, the about page, the contact page, but still no changes to my map profile (correct changes), just the same garbage with my competition's number appearing on my profile

[DdDave]

Graham, the Google Automated Reconciler 4 is a bot that is trying to keep Google databases synced, and unfortunately there are some listings getting incorrect updates.  I don't know if you read the recent post from Jayanth, but Google is working on correcting the issues.  Unfortunately the bots have a tendency to revert edits, but they are working on making it so that the bots will not over-ride a human edit.  All I can suggest is that you keep changing it back, and hopefully it will eventually stick.  I know it's not ideal, but it's the only thing we can do for now.

[Graham Ginsberg]

@Dave - Thats the first bit of good news I've heard. I've been hoping our local police will contact Google on my behalf to express concern over this issue. Google will not take my calls but will a police officer.

What I tried to do to avoid this unwanted 'marriage' of 2 Google Profiles:

1. Changed my address - didn't work - Incorrect phone number followed me
2. Changed my phone number and address - didn't work - Incorrect phone number followed me
3. Made changes with Google Map Tools - didn't work - Google bots reverted them
4. Have volunteer editors on this forum make changes - didn't work - Google bots reverted them

Options Remaining:
1. Buy the 'wrong number' on my profile from my competitor
2. Sue my competitor and their brokerage and Google and whomever else is involved

Attached are 2 different Google searches.
I am in the naples search and shows my picture with the wrong 888 number

The other shows a marco search. The first natural item shows a marco island RE company with the wrong address and wrong number with the correct URL

[Moid]

Hi All,

We understand these issues can frustrate anyone, but we expect mappers to raise these concerns in a dignified and professional manner. Volunteer forum posters who try to help with queries do this out of their own goodwill and the general passion they have towards helping other people.

To maintain the decorum of this forum, we request mappers not to resort to any kind of threats, racism or personalized attacks against fellow mappers. These actions tend to instill a sense of insecurity and discomfort amongst our strongly-knit global family of mappers.

We encourage you to reach out to us on the forums, if you feel your concerns are not being adequately addressed.

Thanks,
Moid

[Graham Ginsberg]

Hi Moid

I received this from the Florida Attorney General and thought it helpful to post it :

From Attorney General Pam Bondi

Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi received your email regarding your
 concerns with Google, Inc.'s search engine program. Attorney General Bondi
 asked that I respond.

 We appreciate that you consider our office as a source of assistance, and
 I have reviewed your correspondence to determine the best resources to
 help you. Our office is not at liberty to provide legal advice or opinions
 to private individuals or businesses; however, I hope the following
 suggestions and information prove helpful.

 I encourage you to convey your concerns by writing directly to Google at
 the company's headquarters office. The contact information is:

 Google, Inc.
 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway
 Mountain View, CA 94043

 To file a complaint at the state level, please contact the Florida
 Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, Division of Consumer
 Services (DACS).  DACS is the clearinghouse for consumer complaints and
 has a voluntary mediation program to assist individual consumers.  You may
 contact DACS at:

 Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services
 Division of Consumer Services
 2005 Apalachee Parkway
 Tallahassee, Florida 32399
 Telephone: (850) 410-3800
 Toll-free within FL: (800) 435-7352
 Website: http://www.800helpfla.com/

 Another resource you may wish to contact is the Internet Crime Complaint
 Center, which is a combined effort of the National White Collar Crime
 Center and the FBI to combat Internet fraud. You may reach this office by
 telephone at (800) 251-7581, or you may  visit that agency's website at:

 http://www.ic3.gov

 Additionally, the Florida Bar provides the following information regarding
 contract issues and civil procedures. If you need legal guidance on
 whether or not to pursue a judicial remedy, please consult a private
 attorney.

 Legal and Binding Contracts (Florida Bar Association)
 http://www.floridabar.org/tfb/TFBConsum.nsf/0a92a6dc28e76ae58525700a005d0d53/6a653200b74c8a2085257405007a3ac3!OpenDocument


 The Florida Rules of Civil Procedure (Florida Bar Association)
 http://www.floridabar.org/tfb/TFBLegalRes.nsf/D64B801203BC919485256709006A561C/E1A89A0DC5248D1785256B2F006CCCEE?OpenDocument

 Civil or Criminal Case? (Florida Bar Association)
 http://www.floridabar.org/tfb/TFBConsum.nsf/0a92a6dc28e76ae58525700a005d0d53/2f68b2079b9f4ce48525760e00519436!OpenDocument

 Info on Small Claims (Florida State Courts)
 http://www.flcourts.org/gen_public/family/self_help/smallclaims.shtml

 Small Claims Info (Collier County Clerk of Circuit Courts)
 http://www.collierclerk.com/CourtDivisions/Civil/SmallClaims

 Again, an attorney can provide the legal advice which our office is not at
 liberty to give to private individuals or businesses. If you need help
 finding a Florida attorney, The Florida Bar offers a Lawyer Referral
 Service which you may contact toll-free in the U.S. at (800) 342-8060 or
 online at:

 http://www.floridabar.org/divpgm/lronline.nsf/wreferral6?OpenForm

 Thank you for sharing your concerns with Attorney General Bondi's Office.
 I hope you are able to reach a satisfactory resolution. If you would like
 to keep current with news on Attorney General Bondi's efforts to fight
 fraud please follow this link and subscribe to the Attorney General's
 electronic newsletters:

 http://myfloridalegal.com/NewsBrie.nsf/Subscriber

 Sincerely,
 Beverly Bailey
 Office of Citizen Services
 Florida Attorney General's Office
 PL-01, The Capitol
 Tallahassee, Florida 32399-1050
 Phone: (850) 414-3990
 Toll-free in Florida: (866) 966-7226
 Website: http://www.myfloridalegal.com