How to tag cyrillic vs. latin in Serbia ?

[risk]

Hi fellow map makers,
How do I properly tag street names in Belgrade with regards to
alphabet used ?

Traditional, official government, church supported spelling is in
Cyrillic.
Urban population, technically oriented, mostly younger population uses
Latin spelling.
Most mobile devices don't have Cyrillic input methods, which makes
searching Cyrillic street names weird.
Road signs can be found in either spelling, rarely in both.

How do I properly tag both spelling variants ?

[Cool Runnings]

Map Maker supports adding names in different languages/variants of the same language. You can do this clicking on Add Name under the overview tab. Using this might help you overcome the problem of adding data in cyrillic and latin variants.

Cheers

Aj 

[Rabas]

You put Cyrillic as Serbian, Preferred, and Latin as Serbian, Obscure.

Poz, Rabas :)

[Srdjan Rosic]

So are both of those indexed for search purposes, for example, when a user puts in an address with the street name part spelled in latin ?

[MapMaker Guide]

Yes Srdjan, You are correct. Alternate names help in search results
and when you search for a place using the latin name, the street will
show up.

Regards,
Map Maker Guide.

[MapMaker Guide]

Hi All,
Further to the suggestion of Rabas to use Cyrillic as 'Serbian-
Preferred' and Latin as 'Serbian-Obscure', a limitation of the tool is
preventing the intended rendering of the names. Hence, I would like to
ask all of you to use add the names as follows:

- Cyrillic script :- Language: Serbian and Type: Preferred
- Latin script :- Language: English and Type: Preferred
- Actual English name :- Language: English and Type: Official

Please let me know if there are any queries.

Regards,
Map Maker Guide.

[Srdjan Rosic]

Excellent !

Sounds like a winner, I can see a lot of non-accustomed-to-Cyrillic backpackers, and thousands of mobile users whose device vendors abandoned Serbian Cyrillic support, happy with this naming schema, and if you have your system locale and/or browser set to prefer Serbian, you would get, naturally, the Cyrillic spelling.

Further more, Google web search already seems to compensate for the diacritic differences between "Požeška" and "Pozeska" .. which probably extends to Maps as well.. and that enables maps for mobile users who can often only enter the search term using 26 letters of English alphabet.

Seems to work for everyone!

All the best,
Srdjan Rosic

[Rabas]

This is fine solution, works good in practice. Now it would be great
to see the split/join tool available (already voted on Issue 82),
because it took a lot of time to map each section independently with
"wrong" data, and to change them will be great pain in the a**... That
almost doubles the amount of work, considering I have to change
Serbian, Obscure to English, Preferred, and add English, Official.
Also, just to make sure, if I have a street name that contains
diacritic, let's say "Dušanova" (name of the street), does that
translate to "Dusanova" when added as English, Official?

Thanks,
Marko Rabasović

[Miloš Erić]

I would love to see the proper spelling, Dušanova, instead of
Dusanova, in line with Google's practice in other countries which use
Latin alphabet or otherwise - such as France, Spain, Belarus... Like
Srdjan already said, Google web search already seems to compensate for

the diacritic differences between "Požeška" and "Pozeska".

Best regards,
Miloš.

[Igor]

What about object addresses? Should we use latin or cyrillic?

I see some objects with address like this "Булевар Краља Александра,
Врачар, Beograd, Serbia." which is a mixture of Serbian cyrillic,
Serbian latin and English :)

[Miloš]

Well, it depends on your system settings, as it will always show
language of your choice. In this particular case, it is very much
possible that this section of Bulevar kralja Aleksandra does not have
English name yet (or is marked as Serbian Obscure, you might want to
check), also Vračar locality is only in Serbian, etc. Once all the
translations are in it will either show Bulevar, Vračar, Beograd or
Булевар, Врачар, Београд.

[Igor]

I wasn't clear enough, when I said objects I meant buildings (like
post office, hotel, etc). What I wanted to ask is when I add some
building, do I use cyrillic or latin for address of that building?
For name of the building I can input several different languages, but
address has only one field.

[AM909]

I'll mention that the "Address" field is apparently meant to contain
only the housenumber or information other than the street, city,
postcode, etc., which are already entered in their own fields. So,
this removes the question if there is only a housenumber.

[Igor]

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I thought that I should
write whole address in that field :), I get it now.

[Александар Веселиновић]

You do not enter data in Latin alphabet. For Serbian use Cyrillic and
please make sure that the entry is followed with the name in English.
When entering names of institutions try to translate them or use their
"official name in English". E.g. "Електротехнички факултет" → "The
School of Electrical Engineering".

Search is fixed through internal Google technology which helps in
mapping from ASCII to Cyrillic. Mobile devices don't have čšćž as
well, insisting on Latin doesn't solve the problem.

-A.

[Miloš]

Aleksandar,

please read the thread carefully. There is an official instruction
from MapMaker team couple messages back on use of Cyrillic and Latin
scripts, in line with use of Latin in other primarily non-Latin
countries, e.g. Greece. The fact that you can write Serbian perfectly
well (and in line with Serbian grammar and language standards, for
that matter) with Latin script has been completely ignored, but
nevertheless, it HAS TO be used throughout the map, as Google is not a
local Serbian service, but a global map and database.

So, let me quote MapMaker Guide:

- Cyrillic script :- Language: Serbian and Type: Preferred
- Latin script :- Language: English and Type: Preferred
- Actual English name :- Language: English and Type: Official

You should also make use of diacritics (ŽĆČĐŠ) when putting a Latin
name (English preferred).

Best regards,
Miloš.

[Map Maker Guide]

Dear Serbian mappers,

I have an update to make regarding my previous post on a
recommendation for adding Serbian names. Map Maker shows the same
geographical feature name to all users, and can display only one name,
that is the first-listed name of "Type: Preferred." Google Maps, on
the other hand, displays names in the local language of each country,
and can display two names (usually of "Type: Preferred") rather than
one.

When we eventually transfer Map Maker data of Serbia to Google Maps,
we will auto-transliterate the Serbian name entered in Cyrillic script
-- this should be the first-listed name of "Type: Preferred," per my
previous post -- and also display the name auto-transliterated into
Latin script. For example, if a user enters "Београд" as the "Serbian,
Preferred" name, we will auto-transliterate it into "Beograd" as the
"Serbian (Latin), Preferred" name and display both on Google Maps.

So here again is an updated recommendation for adding Serbian names,
in the context of this clarification:

1. This first recommendation is most important to follow, as we'll
base the auto-transliteration off of it:
* Serbian, Cyrillic script :- Language: Serbian and Type:
Preferred
Example (enter only Serbian label):
- Name: "Нови Сад"
- Language: "Serbian"
- Type: "Preferred"

2. If the English name differs from the Serbian transliteration:
* If the English name is a direct transliteration from
Serbian, there's no need to enter the English name as we'll ultimately
do auto-transliteration.
Example (names that don't need English entries):
- Name: "Нови Сад"; Language: "Serbian"; Type:
"Preferred" (no need to enter the English name, will be auto-
transliterated as "Novi Sad")
- Name: "Вождовац"; Language: "Serbian"; Type:
"Preferred" (no need to enter the English name, will be auto-
transliterated as "Vozdovac")
* Otherwise: Actual English name:- Language: English and
Type: Preferred
Example (name translation is needed):
- Name: "Архитектонски факултет"; Language:
"Serbian"; Type: "Preferred"
- Name: "The School of Architecture"; Language:
"English"; Type: "Preferred"

3. There's no real need to enter the Serbian name in Latin script
as we'll ultimately do auto-transliteration. But if you feel inclined
to add it, please use:
* Serbian, Latin script:- Language: Serbian and Type:
Obscure
Example (use diacritics in Serbian Latin where
appropriate):
- Name: "Surčin"
- Language: "Serbian"
- Type: "Obscure"
* Rest assured that though the auto-transliteration process
we will make sure that both Cyrillic and Latin script Serbian will
appear on Google Maps.


4. It's fine to also enter Serbian, Cyrillic script as Official,
however doing so won't affect which name gets displayed as both Map
Maker and Google Maps display Preferred names wherever possible.


Please also reference our documentation on the proper usage of the
different language type options in Map Maker:
http://maps.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=156999


Sincerely,

MapMaker Guide.

[Jitendra Singh]

Milos,

Thanks for the information provided.

I have certain similar doubts related to India.

If some place is found in northern region of India. And Language
spoken is Hindi(National Language of India).
If I make the changes in following manner.

- Hindi Script : Language: Hindi and Type: Preferred

- Latin script :- Language: English and Type: Preferred
- Actual English name :- Language: English and Type: Official

Is it correct. Some of these kind of edits have been denied by some of
the moderators, and following comment received in that case.

Denied 2 hours 13 mins ago
Reason: Other
It would be great if the name in English script remains preferred
rather than Hindi name so that users not knowing Hindi can also
comprehend the name.

Hi, though Hindi is a recognized language all across the country but
the fact is a lot of searches are performed by users who are non-
Indian who would not understand Hindi. This is a reason why we would
want the first name to be in English and the Hindi name or any other
local language name to be added in as the second preferred option. As
of now, I am changing the order of the names. Please try using it in
future. Thanks!!

Regards,
Jitendra

On Aug 26, 8:43 pm, Miloš <milose...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Aleksandar,
>
> please read the thread carefully. There is an official instruction
> from MapMaker team couple messages back on use of Cyrillic and Latin
> scripts, in line with use of Latin in other primarily non-Latin
> countries, e.g. Greece. The fact that you can write Serbian perfectly

> well (and in line with Serbian grammar andlanguagestandards, for

> that matter) with Latin script has been completely ignored, but
> nevertheless, it HAS TO be used throughout the map, as Google is not a
> local Serbian service, but a global map and database.
>
> So, let me quote MapMaker Guide:
>

> - Cyrillic script :-Language: Serbian  and Type: Preferred
> - Latin script    :-Language: English and Type: Preferred
> - Actual English name :-Language: English and Type: Official

[astroshima]

On Sep 10, 5:00 am, Map Maker Guide <mapmakergu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>    3. There's no real need to enter the Serbian name in Latin script
> as we'll ultimately do auto-transliteration. But if you feel inclined
> to add it, please use:
>           * Serbian, Latin script:- Language: Serbian and Type:
> Obscure
>                  Example (use diacritics in Serbian Latin where
> appropriate):
>                       - Name: "Surčin"
>                       - Language: "Serbian"
>                       - Type: "Obscure"
>           * Rest assured that though the auto-transliteration process
> we will make sure that both Cyrillic and Latin script Serbian will
> appear on Google Maps.

1. a) OK But who will tell Serbian Map Maker users how to
transliterate million companies names from Serbian-Latin to Serbian-
Cirilic?
For example: Tell me how to transliterate this Company Names from
Latin to Cirilic:
http://www.nbs.rs/export/internet/cirilica/50/50_2.html
(This web page is on Serbian-Cirilic but companies names are on
Serbian-Latin)

1. b) Why would average Serbian Map maker user even think about this?
Why not enable people to enter company (or Street) name on Serbian-
Latin? In my home city (Novi Sad, Serbia) Street names have been
written in both in Serbian-Cirilic and Serbian-Latin.

2. Why Google force some Map Maker users in Serbia to use Serbian
Cirilic for data input? Some of them always use and want to use
Serbian Latin...

[astroshima]

On Sep 10, 5:00 am, Map Maker Guide <mapmakergu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 3. There's no real need to enter the Serbian name in Latin script
> as we'll ultimately do auto-transliteration.

Hm... That's maybe true for Serbian Street, City, etc... names but I
am not sure about Serbian Company Names...

According to The Serbian Business Registers Agency:
(http://pretraga.apr.gov.rs/RepsisPublicSite/Search/
GeneralEnterpriseSearch.aspx)

"Enterprise search

Title can consists:
ABVGDĐEŽZIJKLMNOPRSTĆUFHCČŠQWXYabvgdđežzijklmnoprstćufhcčšqwxy0123456789!
&()-_;., ‘/\@®©+"

That looks like Serbian Latin Keyboard Layout to me! You can't get
Serbian Cyrillic company name there!!!

So it looks to me that Serbian Companies can't enter their exact names
in Map Maker...

Sorry if I eventually made some mistake ...

[Miloš]

What astroshima is trying to say is that there are lot of POIs,
majority being companies and stores, whose official name is in
language other than Serbian. The site below is actually an official
company register, and the law clearly allows for companies to use
whichever script and whichever language they choose. That being the
case, "Serbian Latin" name is actually the foreign language name,
because both languages use the same - Latin - script. For example,
Citibank is registered as Citibank Srbija, which is _not_ a direct
transliteration of its Cyrillic name (Ситибанк Србија / Sitibank
Srbija). Or, while it is perfectly normal to see a McDonald's sign
(I'm actually still waiting to see cyrillic Мекдоналдс anywhere exect
on Google Maps), it would be ridiculous to see a Latin "Mekdonalds".
No one uses that, and, that's just wrong - the company is officialy
called McDonald's, not just globally, but in Serbia as well.

So, there are POIs which should not be automatically transliterated,
as Cyrillic and Latin names are not the same, that's the main point.
I'm not exactly sure what the solution might be, one possible
workaround would be to have two separate languages, Serbian (Cyrillic)
and Serbian (Latin), the same way Mac OS X or Windows separate them.

[astroshima]

On Sep 28, 2:10 pm, Miloš <milose...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What astroshima is trying to say is that there are lot of POIs,
> majority being companies and stores, whose official name is in
> language other than Serbian. The site below is actually an official
> company register, and the law clearly allows for companies to use
> whichever script and whichever language they choose.

> I'm not exactly sure what the solution might be, one possible
> workaround would be to have two separate languages, Serbian (Cyrillic)
> and Serbian (Latin), the same way Mac OS X or Windows separate them.

Yeah Linux also have that! ;-)
But that would solve only a part (although a significant part) of the
problem...

For example this Serbian company title (name):
"CREDY BANKA" ("CREDY BANKA AKCIONARSKO DRUŠTVO KRAGUJEVAC, KRALJA
PETRA I 26 ")
http://pretraga.apr.gov.rs/RepsisPublicSite/Public/Enterprise/BusinessNames.aspx?BusinessEntityId=1024055&RegistryCode=07654812&rnd=614818296
looks like a mix of Serbian (Latin) ("BANKA") and English language
("CREDY"), to me...
Note that there is no "Y" letter in Serbian language ...

[astroshima]

On Sep 28, 2:10 pm, Miloš <milose...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not exactly sure what the solution might be, one possible
> workaround would be to have two separate languages, Serbian (Cyrillic)
> and Serbian (Latin), the same way Mac OS X or Windows separate them.

Hm... Looking that Serbian Government site:
http://www.apr.gov.rs/eng/XBRLConference/tabid/220/Default.aspx
Seems that there are some (serious) international standards for
Company Names? (I am totally ignorant about that topic so sorry if I
made wrong assumption...)
And following some links from that site I've found other countries
Company registers:
http://www.ecrforum.org/section/9/index.html

Maybe the Map Maker team could use advice from some experts in that
"Commerce Registers" (or whatever the name is...) area and solve that
"(Serbian) Business Names" (Map Maker) "problem" not only for Serbia
but eventually for other Countries as well (if there is other country-
language problem...)....