Map of Azerbaijan Republic - many erroneous, malicious and spam entries introduced in the Karabakh and Naxcivan regions

[gr8vision]

Regrettably, many towns, villages and regions of the Republic of Azerbaijan have also been under spam attacks by a slew of Google Maps users, who not just introduce wrong and erroneous information into the map, but are marking all legitimate corrections as “spam” and “abuse”. They do it “more than twice, in a malicious manner … with a view to post inaccurate information or in a manner that results in spam” (from Google Mapmaker Moderation Guidelines for Users: http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/guidelines.html)

For the Republic of Azerbaijan, there is only one official language, and that's Azerbaijani. Additionally, English is recognized as the international language for touristic and business purposes. Plus, Google is an American company, so naturally, English is the accepted language. That's all, just these two languages. Thus, all Azerbaijani cities, towns, villages and regions and their OFFICIAL, INTERNATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED and thus the only correct names, can be only in Azerbaijani and English. The only OFFICIAL and AUTHORITATIVE sources on the map names (city, town, village and region names) are those from the 1) U.S. Government, 2) Government of Azerbaijan, and 3) the United Nations and in some cases from authoritative international organizations that have an editorial process, like the International Organization for Standardization (ISO), from .gov, .int and .mil domains. Anything else is unofficial. Here are these official and authoritative sources:

1)      U.S. National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency: http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/namefiles.htm

Direct link to the database file on Azerbaijan: http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/cntyfile/aj.zip

It contains all Azerbaijanis cities, towns and major villages along with their GPS coordinates, as recognized by the U.S. Government.

 

2)      UN cartography - listing of all Azerbaijani cities and towns, under the appropriate regions:

http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/maplib/ungegn/session-20/working-papers/working-paper-82.pdf

 

3)      Map of Azerbaijan by the UN: http://www.un.int/azerbaijan/img/map_hi_res.jpg
Another map by UN: http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/azerbaij.pdf

 

4)      An additional UN map that shows borders of nations, which is important to notice the three (3) Azerbaijani exclaves that are inside Armenia: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/geonames/

 

5)      U.S. State Department map of Azerbaijan: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2909.htm

 

6)      The UN and the only internationally-accepted standard to spell place names in Azerbaijan is ISO_3166-2:AZ - here's more on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:AZ

 

7)      Independent source listing Azerbaijani spellings of town names: http://www.geopostcodes.com/index.php?pg=browse&grp=1&sort=1&niv=3&id=476&l=0

 

Other references, from blogs, commercial and personal websites, .com, .net, .org, .ru, etc. (e.g., nkrusa.org, nkr.am, karabakh.net, arev.ru, or user created articles in Wikipedia) domains cannot be accepted. They are worthless and represent unofficial, personal position of a small group of people, a fringe theory. Only government and otherwise very authoritative sources should be consulted and used.

 

Likewise, there can be no so-called "Nagorno Karabakh Republic (NKR)" on the territory of Azerbaijan as such a nation-state does not exist. Please see the roaster of UN members: http://www.un.org/en/members/index.shtml

Just in case, let's also check ISO, to see if there is any internationally-recognized standard that recognizes ISO: http://www.iso.org/iso/country_codes/iso_3166_code_lists/country_names_and_code_elements.htm

Do you see any so-called "NKR" there? No. But we do see Azerbaijan, Armenia, Russia, Iran, Turkey, Georgia, United States.

And see that no one, not even Armenia, recognize any "NKR": http://www.epress.am/en/2011/01/27/why-armenia-cannot-recognize-abkhazia-south-ossetia-independence.html

Thus, links to some self-created Wikipedia articles or some blogs about "NKR" are not proof of anything and are without any merit. 

No one recognizes the so-called "NKR" - neither Armenia, nor Azerbaijan, nor U.S. Here are relevant quotes from the U.S. State Department and the European Union:

1) “The United States does not recognize Nagorno-Karabakh as an independent country, and its leadership is not recognized internationally or by the United States. The United States supports the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan…” Source: “The United States and the Conflict Over Nagorno-Karabakh”, Fact Sheet, Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs, Washington, DC, February 7, 2005, http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/fs/41401.htm

2) “The first point to make is obviously that we don't recognize Nagorno-Karabakh as an independent country. The future status of Nagorno-Karabakh is a matter of negotiations in the Minsk process. Our position is to support the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, and we don't believe that these elections will have an impact on the peace process or the Minsk process”. Source: State Department Briefing: Azerbaijan. Briefer: Adam Ereli, Deputy Spokesman, U.S. Department of State, Daily Press Briefing, Monday, August 9, 2004, 1:05 p.m. EDT

3) “The independence of Nagorno-Karabakh hasn't been recognized by the United States or any other nations. The so-called parliamentary elections held in Nagorno-Karabakh shouldn't prejudge the final legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh in terms of talks on the settlement to the conflict”. Source: Robert Hilton, spokesman of the Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs of the U.S. Department of State, 28.05.2010, http://pda.today.az/news/politics/68849.html

4) “The OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chairs took note that the authorities of Nagorno-Karabakh held a referendum on December 10 on a draft 'Constitution' of the so-called 'Nagorno-Karabakh Republic,' which no member of the international community - including the Co-Chair countries - recognizes as an independent state. The Co-Chairs do not believe that such a 'referendum' will contribute to a negotiated settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. Any future legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh should be determined without the threat or use of force and only as the result of political negotiations between all parties in the framework of the Minsk process. Conducting such a referendum now, thus pre-empting the final legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh, rather than forging a compromise is particularly unhelpful at a moment when the OSCE Minsk Group-mediated negotiations between Armenia and Azerbaijan appear to be on a constructive path. The Co-Chairs expect that the results of this referendum, which are not internationally recognized, will have no negative effect on continuing prospects for an agreement between the sides on basic principles for the settlement of the conflict.” Source: Statement by the OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chairs on the 10 December Referendum in Nagorno-Karabakh, OSCE Press Release, Moscow/Paris/Washington, December 11, 2006 http://www.un-az.org/undp/bulnews45/stateosce1.php

5) “The 43-nation Council of Europe today called on the Nagorno-Karabakh de facto authorities to refrain from staging the one-sided "local self-government elections" in the province, planned for 5 September. "These so-called 'elections' cannot be legitimate," stressed Council of Europe Committee of Ministers' Chairman and Liechtenstein Foreign Minister Ernst Walch, Parliamentary Assembly President Lord Russell-Johnston and Secretary General Walter Schwimmer. They recalled that following the 1991-1994 armed conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, a substantial part of the region's population was forced to flee their homes and are still living as displaced persons in those countries or as refugees abroad.” Source: Council of Europe urges Nagorno-Karabakh to refrain from ''elections'', CoE, Strasbourg, 24/08/2001, http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Press/StopPressView.asp?ID=1247

6) “In the meantime, ethnic Armenians had established a “government” in the Nagorno-Karabkah region with its “capital” in Stepanakert (or Khankendi in Azerbaijani). This “government” is not recognised by any of the Council of Europe member states, nor by the OSCE, European Union and the United Nations. Armenia maintains close political, economic and military relations with them, but does not recognise the area as an independent state and hence has not established diplomatic relations with this “government”.” Source: Parliamentary Assembly of Council of Europe (PACE), "The conflict over the Nagorno-Karabakh region dealt with by the OSCE Minsk Conference", Rapporteur: Mr David Atkinson (UK), Report by Political Affairs Committee, Doc. 10364, paragraph 13, 29 November 2004, http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc04/EDOC10364.htm

So please, dear editors, please refrain from making any malicious and incorrect edits that are not based on official and authoritative sources.

[rjhintz]

Just to note that names in GMM have attributes of Preferred, Local, Official, Obscure, and so on.

If someone assigns a Preferred Chinese name to a feature, whether in Azerbaijan or in the USA, it's legitimate according to the GMM policies.  Please refer to this help topic.

For the specific Nagorno Karabakh case, I don't have an opinion other than to say this comes up somewhat regularly.   

--

Rich 

[AB]

Thanks Rich, but this doesn't address the problem for five reasons:

I) The link you provided tackles suggestions, not rules;

II) It is for "places" and specifically discusses scenarios under which roads and streets are named. The primary concern many people expressed are about names of cities, towns, villages and regions, not about street names, quarters, areas, condominiums, etc.

III) The Mapmaker help link also is clear that whether Preferred, Official, Local or Obscure, and whether being in different languages, it does not mean a person can give some unofficial name to a town just because he/she came up with on some personal blog/website of zero credibility, and 

IV) Likewise, it means names have to be just an exact translation or transliteration of the official and preferred name. In other words, let's take a real example from Azerbaijan that malicious users changed: the region and city of Kalbajar. It's fine to spell it in original Azerbaijani (Latin) as Kəlbəcər, in English as Kalbajar, in Russian as Кельбеджар, in obscure as Kelbejar, in Turkish as Kelbecer, in Persian as کلبجر and so on. But what is not OK and is against not just Google rules but state sovereignty, international standards and corporate and civic responsibility, is to make the name "Karvachar" (!), make it "Preferred", and even make it official and primary! So when anyone types Kalbajar, Azerbaijan, they are then taken to some "Karvachar, Azerbaijan". That's wrong and needs to stop. These are great maps and Google has invested a lot into them. They should not be turned into playground for fringe theories and random people pushing their agenda whilst relying on third-rate personal blogs and websites.

V) Finally, all names have to do with state sovereignty. No one can just name whatever they want in a foreign country whichever way they want. There are rules and standards, and Google abides by them. Look at it from your personal position - how would you like to be called some alternative names that have nothing to do with your real name? You probably won't like that at all, and would object. Likewise, tomorrow Al Qaeda and others will declare that the name of New York is actually Sheytan (Devil) - that's how it's known to them locally - should that be reflected on Mapmaker, too? Please! Let's have some sanity and abide by internationally-adopted and recognized standards. We didn't invent the maps, and there is no need to overlooks decades and centuries of scholarship on the issue. 

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[rjhintz]

Hi,

 Well, the guidelines in the Help are more than suggestions.  If, for example, a feature is given a name that doesn't conform, it's subject to denial.

The naming conventions have to do with all map features, including civil features such as states.  Not just roads.

Using "unofficial" as an attribute doesn't help clarify how naming works in GMM.  The only issue is whether the name is official, preferred, local, and so on.  The review process is the check on names that don't conform.

Names don't have to be translations or transliterations.  "Santorini" comes to mind as an example.

I don't agree that all names have to do with state sovereignty.  As a trivial example, when the USA became open for mapping, we added non-English names to the Hollywood sign in Los Angeles.  Yes, you probably mean civil names, such as those for the areas under dispute, but I wanted to show that the discussion needs to have a more limited scope if that's what you mean.

I don't have a political stake in the wider dispute,  I just wanted to give a perspective that refines some of your assertions to conform to the GMM context. As I say, this comes up regularly.

--

Rich

[Serge]

<II) It is for "places" and specifically discusses scenarios under which roads and streets are named. The primary concern many people expressed are about names of cities, towns, villages and regions, not about street names, quarters, areas, condominiums, etc.>

@gr8vision: I continue to see your personally strong desire to hear only yourself. I wrote you yesterday: "I see a complete lack of desire to read the Map Maker Help a little deeper - Political regions: Name" (So be so kind to click on the blue link). But I'm also see than people fighting even for the Bus stop name...

[Mr-G]

Dont start this again. You allready got an answer from Google to another similar post. Please follow the instructions.

[Ruan Smit]

I got the reply just after I posted this too. thank you.

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:54 PM, General Map Maker on behalf of Mr-G <google-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Dont start this again. You allready got an answer from Google to another similar post. Please follow the instructions.

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[I MAP]

What exactly is the harm in having an additional name in another language ?

[rjhintz]

Hi I MAP,

  I'm not sure to whom you're directing your question, but if it's me, if a name is spam, abusive, or provides bad information (example: misspelled), it doesn't provide value and is subject to rejection/deletion, regardless of the language.

--

Rich

[I MAP]

Hi Richard,

it was addressed to gr8vision.

I agree with your point.

I was talking about those situations where the name is a translated version.

Eg. in Morocco, a feature having a name in Chinese and the type as preferred in that language

[gr8vision]

Guys, especially Serge, I think you have not read Google's official policy and keep referring me instead to the less authoritative Mapmaker help. Please see this link, as it cites official Google policy as of 2009, as promulgated by Bob Boorstin, Director, Public Policy Team:

http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2009/12/when-sources-disagree-borders-and-place.html

Note these passages:

"Authoritative references: While no single authority has all the answers, when deciding how to depict sensitive place names and borders we use guidance from data providers that most accurately describe borders in treaties and other authoritative standards bodies like the United Nations, ISO and the FIPS. We look for the references that are the most universally recognized for each individual case. For example, in the case of "Myanmar (Burma)" ISO and FIPS each use a different name, so we include both to provide a more complete reference for our users."

So Mr. Boorstin agreed with my and others' arguments - that UN and ISO are the #1 standards to be used and relied upon in Google Maps. That's what I said all along and provided links in all my posts:

United Nations (UN) - listing of all Azerbaijani cities and towns: 

http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/maplib/ungegn/session-20/working-papers/working-paper-82.pdf

http://www.un.int/azerbaijan/img/map_hi_res.jpg

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/azerbaij.pdf

The ISO standard to spell place names in Azerbaijan is ISO_3166-2:AZ - here's more on it: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:AZ

Google's Mr. Boorstin also cited FIPS, here it is, also fully supporting our view: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FIPS_region_codes_(A%E2%80%93C)#AJ:_Azerbaijan

In addition to FIPS, which works in conjunction with other US Government entities, such as ANSI and NGA. In fact, here's the data from U.S. NGA:

U.S. National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency: http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/namefiles.htm

direct link to the database file on Azerbaijan: http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/cntyfile/aj.zip

Not only does Google's policy above say that Google uses UN, ISO and U.S. Government official sources, but it says that only and only when those sources contradict each other, Google includes both spellings -- but in other cases, Google's policy is to include only one spelling, that is most authoritative (and he defines who are those authorities - UN, ISO and U.S. Government). So there is no room for any misunderstanding or double standards here. 

So this is 100% confirmation of my points. But wait, there is more:

"..even showing the dispute on a map may be prohibited by local law"

"Carefully considering Google's mission, guidance from authoritative references, local laws and local market expectations, we strive to provide tools that help our users explore and learn about their world, and to the extent allowed by local law, includes all points of view where there are conflicting claims."

"What about when local user expectations don't match international convention, or when local laws prohibit acknowledging regional conflicts?"

This shows the legitimate concern by Google to abide by "local laws". Well, guess what "local law" is on the territory of Azerbaijan? Right, it's the law of the Republic of Azerbaijan. 

The Azerbaijani laws are that it recognizes only official Azerbaijani city/place names, and considers anyone who visits any of its territory without Azerbaijani visa and permission as an illegal person, who gets detained, then deported and placed into a black list.

Here is, for example, an Azerbaijani government document on how Azerbaijan spells regions and cities: http://www.azstat.org/region/az/index.shtml

So as you can see, the Google's OFFICIAL policy as promulgated by its DIRECTOR of Public Policy, is consistent with international standards and rules, and SPECIFICALLY cites the need to abide by the terminology and spellings found in UN, ISO and U.S. Government documents. The only times Google accepts dual spelling is when these very same authoritative sources - UN, ISO and U.S. Government - contradict each other. In all other cases, only one, official and preferred correct spelling is accepted.

[gr8vision]

Dear I MAP - that was not the problem and not the question. No one opposes transliteration of names into different languages (which is what Google allows and encourages in its policy and its Mapmaker help). What we oppose is using some made-up, unofficial names, and what we really oppose, is when real, legal, correct names are either downgraded or worse, removed completely, as is the case in many of the places in Azerbaijan "thanks" to the malicious efforts of users like Raffi and Vi Khan (PlusNinety). 

For example, no one opposes translating and transliterating the name of Azerbaijani town and region "Lacın" into other alphabets/languages, for example, in English it is "Lachin" and in Russian, it would be "Лачин". What we absolutely oppose is when that Lachin is completely changed to a name like "Berdzor" and that unofficial, made-up name is made "preferred". And there are about 100 such cases as a result of malicious edits by a couple editors.

[I MAP]

Got it. Thanks for the clarification

[Vi Khan]

How can UN, ISO, etc. be neutral if they are using names sent them by Azerbaijani Goverment? UN, ISO, etc. use another names than Google Maps for N.Cyprus(names sent by Cyprus gov.) and in Kosovo(by Serbia gov.).
I consider, that Nagorno-Karabakh should be added on GMM like Kosovo or N.Cyprus and there should be shown 3(or even 4) names like in Kosovo

1. name in Armenian
2. latin transiteration of the Armenian name
3. name in Azerbaijani
4. as there're several non-latin characters in Azerbaijani and there're another rules of reading may be the transliteration of Azerbaijani name is also necessary

This area de facto isn't part of Azerbaijan last 20 years. That so called official names aren't actual.

[I MAP]

Lets stop the arguments.

May be someone from Google can again clarify this after looking at all the opinions.

I MAP

[gr8vision]

Vi khan, that's what's called neutral - UN, ISO and US Government.

And that's Google policy. Enough said. 

[Yuska]

That's the point. If UN, ISO, US, UK and other governments took the so called "NKR" government seriously or recognized it for that matter, or even considered the approach from the Armenian government, they would have satisfied their wishes by creating borders of a separatist state. Since these organizations, representing the governments of the world have not lost their conscience and rely on actual legal norms and international laws, they hear both sides and recognize the legitimate.

That's why reputable for-profit organizations like Google base their policies on maps on these aforementioned international organizations and their maps.

 

These are neutral sources, not Azerbaijani, and those are Google policies which we have to abide by. That's just that simple. Rules are rules

[Yana Werner]

Totally agree with gr8vision. That's the best answer. Thank you!
If the official name is Washington, then in different languages it should be just the same: Вашингтон, Vasinqton, Washington, etc. But definitely not Yerevanakan only because local residents of Armenian origin call the town this way.

[Yana Werner]

I strongly disagree. Since when is the UN considered "not neutral" and since when are the UN sources called "unreliable"? If the UN sources are "unreliable", then whose are reliable - the ones of the puppet regime in the self-proclaimed territory which is not recognized by any country, even by Armenia?
If the settlements lay within the internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan - and this is recognized by the UN!, - then from whom should the UN receive the information, if not from Azerbaijani government? From Armenian government? If yes, then would you mind if the Azerbaijani government demands the UN to dismiss Yerevan's information about regarding own names in Armenia and accepts only Baku's? Of course, it is not serious.
The Azerbaijani government's decisions about its own towns are "biased", the UN sources about the very same towns are "biased", then whose decisions are not biased?
The Kosovo and N.Cyrpus examples in this context are surely irrelevant. As opposed to Nagorno Karabakh, the UN has never recognized Kosovo as an occupied territory. And it has always treated N.Cyprus as a disputed territory. At the same time, UN has never considered NK as a "disputed territory", and it has always called it "the Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan" (I can provide hundreds of references). Has anyone ever seen the phrase "The Kosovo region of Serbia" in any UN document?
Nagorno Karabakh must NOT be added to GMM as Kosovo and N.Cyprus. This should never happen! There must be 3  names for the Armenian-populated (only those) settlements within the administrative territory of the former NKAO (not beyond!):

1) Azerbaijani Latin (official)
2) English (preferred)
3) Armenian transliteration of the official Azerbaijani name (local) - this means, if the official name of the village is Daşaltı (status - official), then the Armenian name must be Daşaltı in Armenian alphabet, but not some "Karintak" in Armenian alphabet. Before 1988, the official name of the village was Daşaltı, and no one in Baku authorized anyone elsewhere to rename it.

This rule must apply only to the Armenian settlements (not to the Azerbaijani) and only within Nagorno-Karabakh, not beyond. Meaning, there should be no Armenian transliterations (even the correct ones) for the towns beyond Nagorno Karabakh, i.e. Jabrail, Lachin, Kalbajar, etc, because these territories are not part of Nagorno Karabakh and ethnic Armenians never lived there (we don't count illegal settlers, who currently live there and who, after the liberation, will vacate those towns). Those currently occupied territories (it is not my term, it is the term of the international community) will be returned to Azerbaijan anyway, although they have never ceased to be de-jure Azerbaijani territories even for a minute. Therefore, I don't see why there should be any Armenian transliteration of the official Azerbaijani name, even if the correct one.
Furthermore, if the village is WITHIN Nagorno Karabakh but is not Armenian (e.g., Xocali, Meshali, Muganli, Umudlu, etc.), then there should be no Armenian name either.
If the Armenian users want to add Armenian names to Azerbaijani towns, then why can't we add Azerbaijani names to the settlements in Armenia, e.g. Azerbaijani "Basarkechar" for Armenian "Vardenis", Azerbaijani "Jalaloglu" for Armenian "Stepanavan", etc.
Also, Vi Khan, it is irrelevant to appeal to the "de-facto" argument, it does not work. I read the GMM policy, no where did I encounter any reference to a "de-facto" thing. What you refer to as "de-facto" is actually the result of the illegal action, i.e. occupation. GMM operates (or must do so) only with the de jure notion. The attempts to give preference to the "de-facto" factor and diminish "de-jure" is in fact the effort to legalize and cement what is illegal.
And I would encourage you to cease using the word "so-called" with regard to the "official name". Official name cannot be "so-called". Official is official.

[khk...@gmail.com]

Thanks your comments
ỵahoo: heocon.16483
call: 0984303500

2011/8/20 General Map Maker on behalf of Yana Werner <google-...@googlegroups.com>

[Serge]

<Guys, especially Serge, I think you have not read Google's official policy and keep referring me instead to the less authoritative Mapmaker help. Please see this link, as it cites official Google policy as of 2009, as promulgated by Bob Boorstin, Director, Public Policy Team:

http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2009/12/when-sources-disagree-borders-and-place.html>

@gr8vision: Why you think I have not read Google's official policy? If you start to read not only yourself but other members, you will see that I have not written a single word about which names are acceptable and which are not acceptable. Show us at least one my word, contrary to Google policy. 

By the other hand, I see a group of users who have several years work to improve the maps, filled it, and another group of users (or one person with many accounts?) who are three days on the GMM, and already almost banned (not for the editing, but for the removal the names), but teach all around how to live - me (personally), all members, even Google Team. I'm not an Azerbaijani and not an Armenian, I'm not a Christian and not a Muslim, I'm trying to remain neutral, but when some people start to use an international project for nationalism, humiliation one nation and even threats of combat sweep, while under cover UN and other documents as a shield, - maintain neutrality becomes more and more difficult. So please do not use my nick anymore, I do not want to to communicate with you.

[rrm]

I can understand the confusion of some members of the Map Maker community when they see those recent debates about the mass name spamming in Azerbaijan. For people  who are not familiar with this region, lot of things are being discussed in this topic sound kind of strange.

The opinion of Serge about some people "working several years to "improve" (sic) the maps just clearly shows how naive some of you here and unaware of the shrewd policy pursued by the same group of "hard working" people.

The information on the map, for which they "work" several years, has NOT been improved in any way. The information on the maps is meticulously distorted just BECAUSE of these people. The gang of contributors like Raffi, Vi Khan, Garegin, mcsochi and some others, have never had any intentions to improve,  but, instead worked hard to harm and spoil everything here.

These "contributors"  not only fill all the maps they touch with some obscure and made up names,
the names which have nothing to do with the official names of the country of Azerbaijan - they are, in fact, do block many users, like me,
who try to restore all official, widely recognized and legitimate geographical names in this region.

Check my profile:
http://www.google.com/mapmaker?gw=66&ptab=1&uid=216770080082742936445
All my change are legitimate and correct and I am getting an abuser status for my good and truthful acts.
This is just outrageous!

We are not talking here about providing  legitimate transliterations of the official names to different languages. This is acceptable.
This gang of map contributors do put on the Google maps the names, which are wrong, obscure and have nothing to do with transliteration, sometimes just simply made up out of nothing, just because they decided to name it in this way last summer!
If you look at the thousands changes/modifications  these people made, you'll see that this work is not just useless,
but it is, actually, malicious and vary harmful for the  community of Google Map Makers.  That way, with those useless changes,
they climb up  to the level, when they can, actually, deny users like me who seek a justice and the restoration off all legitimate and official names in this region.

Users like Raffi, Vi Khan etc, are the real abusers of the system, and serve Google very badly. I bet that Google Map Maker inventors could not envisage to what extent some users could violate the official language and rules of conduct, be malicious and really driven not by honesty and noble goal to improve the quality of the maps, to provide better information, but actually, with the aim to destroy the whole idea behind those good intentions.

These people in fact on pursuit of a political agenda, to justify the occupation of the part of Azerbaijani land by Armenian forces, to wipe  out all memories of the Azerbaijani native  population of this region by  all means.

I demand  the power users in his community  to unblock my account so I could post my changes, which are fully comply with the
official, internationally recognizable sources of information, which are only sources that should be used  to make changes on the Goggle maps.

[Serge]

<The opinion of Serge about some people "working several years to "improve" (sic) the maps just clearly shows how naive some of you here and unaware of the shrewd policy pursued by the same group of "hard working" people.>

When I say "improve", I mean the quantity and quality of the new features, created by users. 

When I'm looking on rrm or Yana Werner profiles, I see no one feature created (but see them entered into the project in one day). 

At the same time, viewing these profiles and reading the posts of gr8vision, Ruan_SA, rrm, Yana Werner, Yuska, I have the impression that I'm talking with a single person. I'm administrate a quite big Internet-Forum for 5 years. Sorry, but using my experience, I can't believe that in one day came five users at once, who think and write the same in the same theme.

[Umbraro]

Looking at the responses in this thread, I think that many posters are not aware of the complex situation in countries of the former Soviet Union.

First of all, the word "Republic" in this part of the world has nothing to do with states which are recognized by the UN. Republic is a definition of a territory which is or was occupied mainly by one ethnic group and where some privileges were assigned like the right to have an own national language and constitution. The Russian Federation for example has 21 Republics, but I am sure none of them is recognized by the UN as an independent state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_Russia

Using the UN and an US military website as only sources for official naming of geographic features is another point which ignores the defacto situation. Many people, especially the elder ones, still use Russian names of geographic locations. Although these names may not be official anymore, there is still a place for these names on Google maps, both for local users who prefer those Russian names, and for historical research reasons to match geographic names in documents of >20 years old with the actual map. "Obscure" would probably be the best tag for those names, although if these historical names are still extensively used by the local people, "Local" may be more appropriate.

Google Map Maker recently introduced the "Local" tag for feature names to be able to tag geographic features with names which may not be official, but which are commonly used by local people. Local names have high priority when generating the map tiles, which is an indication that Google recognizes the importance of the use of local names on the map. Local names can be in any language spoken by the local people, even those languages not officially recognized by the government.

And then there is the multi-lingual idea of Google in general. Google's goal is to produce every product they have in 40+ languages to serve the largest possible part of the world population with their on-line services. Offering all products in so many languages, but maps only in those few languages which are recognized by the government of a specific country is contradictory to that goal. If a user from Vietnam is surfing the map of Azerbaijan for genuine reasons, there is no reason not to show the names of those places in their own Vietnamese language. Hence, there is no reason not to add names to places in Azerbaijan in Vietnamese language, and if Vietnamese happens to have name for an Azerbaijani geographical feature which is different from the transliteration from Azerbaijani to Vietnamese, there is no reason not to list that differing Vietnamese listing to the map. It adds value and enriches the map.

After all it is Google's goal to organize all the information of the world, not just that information which is recognized or promoted by a single government.

[rrm]

Well, if I have noticed some spamming by Mr. Vi Khan and this fellows, it does not necessarily mean that I will keep it only to myself. So, your experience, while it is valuable, of course, is not correct, in this case. There are some other people who seek truth and correctness reflected in the maps (maps of
our Republic of Azerbaijan).

Your comment about - "nothing is created", reflects the situation exactly right - I cannot create, or rather re-establish some wiped out names on the map
thanks to the abusers like Vi Khan.  Any attempts to put my point on the map, the place, the name of which is correct, official and existed for a long out but deleted by those abusers, is blocked immediately. It looks like they are watching for any attempts to make a change and issue a phony spam issue, so that would be easy for them to block even further if I object. 

Do you want examples?  Ok, let's start with one, I can continue the the other names, but let's do it step by step.

There is a place in Azerbaijan, town of Jabrayil (Cǝbrayıl in Azeri Latin script).
It is an official name of this town. Vi Khan has spammed it with a bogus Jrkan and blocks all my attempts to correct/restore its original and official name.
For a validity of my claims, please see:
One can check National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, a member of the Intelligence community of the United States of America, and a Department of Defense (DoD) Combat Support Agency:

http://geographic.org/geographic_names/name.php?uni=9020561&fid=275&c=azerbaijan 

There is a variety all other sources on that town's name. I can provide many others.

Serge, I think that you read Russian, you can check for
Джебраиль   

in http://www.vehi.net/brokgauz/index.html
which is Brokhaus, Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary (Edition of 1890), which has this town described in there.
There have never been any other names of this town.

I am asking here to unblock my edits and make my account active -
I have a solid justification for all my edits - after all it is my country and I know it much better than some
uninvited guests like Vi Khan, who has no right to litter this area with some false names.
 

rrm
  

[rrm]

Umbraro,

Do not confuse Russian republics, which constitute the Russian Federation with the Republics of the Soviet Union, or USSR. I think you do.
This is absolutely different scale and you just can't compare those subjects.
The latter subjects (which restored their independence after the decay of USSR), at least some of them, have very old history of a statehood.
But, we are not talking here about "Russian" Republics.
 
What is concerns the multiple names - I can agree with you about presence of some other names in different languages, but with one (but most important) exception - only one and only official name of the place must appear on the map.  You can put some names in the details to them map, as many as you want, but it is not an anarchy here we are (or Google) promoting. Let's not be plainly pathetic here.
 Let's assume for a moment that all Mexican people in USA will start changing all names in US, because they live now practically across the entire US, and all those Spanish names will replace the original American (English, French, Dutch, German etc) and all of this stuff (but only Mexican!)  will be visible on the maps of USA  when you open them up.
Will all these English/French/Dutch/German people be extremely happy?  I doubt it pretty much.
The same analogy with the gang of Armenian spammers, who deliberately pollute the Google maps of Azerbaijan.
Azerbaijani people would like to see their own, official and historical names visible on the maps, not some locally made up names to justify the occupation. Our people live on our country much longer than any other ethnic group or groups, seems you are trying to advocate for here.
Don't go that slippery slope - the succession will ruin this world, otherwise.
We will take our lands back, there is no other way.  It's just plainly wrong to play games along with some thugs and occupants and even to justify their highly questionable actions.

rrm 

If you think that Google is supporting  succession movements around the globe, then you
or Google is in big trouble.  

[Serge]

@rrm. I'll quote my friend, CNR. He wrote it to another author in another thread. But I don't see much difference. In order to safely change the names of cities, and shout - "I know better than anyone", you need to start from small and simple - objects around your house, but not in 1,000 kilometers away:

I have seen the denied edit.<...> I would request you to learn the basics of mapping from help pages before venturing to mapping. It would be better to start mapping POIs locally available and best known to you so that the same will be got approved with out much difficulty.  <...>  Thank you for your interest in mapping and wish you happy mapping. Be careful to start with local areas, best known to you.

P.S. @rrm, help me to clarify the situation. How in almost no English-speaking country, at the same time, in the same project meet 5 like-minded people with a fluent English? How all five at once decided to do the same edits, then approve the edition of each other? How without having a communication facilities between users in GMM, at the same time this 5 people came to the Group? I'm just wants to know, how did happen this incredible story of consolidation?

[Serge]

To the author(s) - What solution do you suggest? Google unblocks you. And what will happen next? You will immediately begin to erase the names, the authors of the features will deny your edits, and you will be blocked again (not by a Google team, but a system). So what the result?

[rjhintz]

I have no hope at all of affecting this discussion one way or the other, but here's an interesting case, far from Azerbaijan.

The Hopi people residing in the USA in the state of Arizona have lived in their area for many years.  The USA has Official names for their towns, but if you ask a local person for the name, they'll tell you the Local name.  

It doesn't matter what the USA agency for cartographic naming calls their town, the locals call it the local name.  A map with the Official name, to a local person, is less useful than a map that also has the Local name.  In fact, a local person would say it was Preferred in their language, regardless of any fantasies of the US Government. 

The intent of GMaps is to have naming that shows Official names for widespread, common usage, but also Local names, for indigenous usage.

I now return you to the pointless dispute, already in progress.  (Not referring to Serge & Umbraro, who are trying their best to inform the discussion). 

--

Rich

[I MAP]

+1

[rrm]

 
You probably do not understand, or do not want to understand. The actions of Vi Khan and some of his partners are illegal, because they remove the official and widely recognized names. The official names have to  be restored and _locked_.  Vi Khan and his cronies have absolutely no right to change them. If they would like to _add_ some obscure/local name, let them do it. But not the official ones, not at their expense.
I tried followed the logic you advocate with local/obscure names for places in Armenia.
You know, for the vast majority of places in Armenia we do have our own Azeri names, just because Azerbaijanis use to dominate in number over there just two centuries ago and before. There were a bunch of our medieval states on the territory of current Armenia, so that has a huge legacy.
I tried to add those our names which are recorded in the archives, books, memorabilia and people still remember and cherish them.  You know what happened, do you? Yes - Armenians, like Vi Khan and Raffy or somebody else from the same group, did block those changes, despite, as I  do
emphasize  - I am NOT trying to change their official name. I am trying to add "obscure" names, which are written in our script and we do know that
were the names of those particular places just a while ago, in 20th century.
  

So, as you can see, there are certain double standards which seems the rule of the game for these abusers. They try to change (and do it without
any control or hesitation)  of our official names, BUT, do to prevent us to _add_ the obscure names to the names/places in Armenia!
 
You know what - come up with some Vietnamese name - I have one of my co-workers I can ask him to come up  with the Vietnamese name  of Yerevan (*  - see may comment below) and we'll see how that gang would react. Wanna bet on that ? :)

So, my solution is very simple and I summarize it here:

1. All official names of any place and town/city/village, a mountain/hill/river/lake - all  must  be restored and _LOCKED_.
2. There should be no locks to add obscure or local names ANYWHERE on the map of any country.

If some people violate those 2 simple rules, they have to be banned, so an anarchy here should be put under control. This is not a democracy of choices  we are abusing here- this is an exploitation/abuse of some weaknesses of the system in their narrow minded favor -
that what Vi Khan and his cronies are trying to do.

rrm

* this place was founded as "Irevan",by Revan-khan, an Azeri ruler and it was totally dominated by Azeris not far ago as at the end of 19 century, We are not talking here about murky times like 2.000 years ago, when there were no boundaries between "states" and people speculate about that history without any justifications/proofs.

[rjhintz]

rrm said:

"You probably do not understand, or do not want to understand."

Dear rrm,

  When you start out your reply with this, it kills the entire rest of your note, whatever validity it may or may not have.

--

Rich

[rrm]

Rich,

Your example is not very relevant. You are missing a point.  Your Hopi people in your fascinating examples, probably,
did not do any ethnic cleansing, mass deportation, violent conduct to the people who previously lived in that area before Hopi?
Maybe they did, who knows, but at least, as I understand, there is no records on that or that might happened when there was no
American government around. 
But that exactly what Armenians did to Azerbaijanis, native to Karabakh, not many centuries ago, but very recently, at the end of 20th century.
Now those criminals are trying to wipe the traces of people, they kicked out, ethnically cleansed the area and are performing a cultural genocide
of Azerbaijanis.
I hope. Rich, you are intelligent enough to understand the difference between your example of Hopi and what happened in Karabakh.

   

[rjhintz]

Hi rrm,

  I do not see how your response addresses my example.  If I go to a village in Hopi lands and ask the local name of the village, they would give me the local name.  This has nothing to do with past, present, or presumably future political issues.

By the way, please try to confine your arguments to direct issues and leave out personal characterizations.

--

Rich

[Serge]

@rrm said:
So, my solution is very simple and I summarize it here: 

1. All official names of any place and town/city/village, a mountain/hill/river/lake - all  must  be restored and _LOCKED_.
2. There should be no locks to add obscure or local names ANYWHERE on the map of any country. 

If some people violate those 2 simple rules, they have to be banned...

Bravo! The situation in which discussed accounts were banned, almost exactly matches the abovementioned self-proclaimed rules. Instead of specifying the official names (according to all the abovementioned normative acts) all banned user(s) are deleted the names introduced by previous authors. There were no problems and barriers to add the official names, but was chosen a destructive way.

P.S. By the way, according to worldwide taken netiquette, all double accounts should be banned. With very little desire all double accounts can be determined by the administrator within a few seconds. However, if the author of several accounts voluntarily surrender all of their accounts, one main account can be left unblocked.

[rrm]

Serge,

Bravo! The situation in which discussed accounts were banned, almost exactly matches the abovementioned self-proclaimed rules. Instead of specifying the official names (according to all the abovementioned normative acts) all banned user(s) are deleted the names introduced by previous authors. There were no problems and barriers to add the official names, but was chosen a destructive way.

I am not sure I understand your word  "almost exactly" above.  if you are considering that some of the modifications suggested by me and my
compatriots were correct and within those simple rules or "informative acts", why not to mention it?

As it concerns your plural form in "official names"   -
An official name is only one, there is no such thing like many official  nameS for the same place.
Official names on the territory of Azerbaijan are only  those which are made by decrees or acts of the Government of Azerbaijan. No other authority in Azerbaijan (including all local authorities) can issue such decisions. Thus, all names which are not comply with those decrees
of the Azerbaijan Republic CANNOT be considered and appear on the Google maps as Official ones. Local and Obscure, yes, but not Official!
If you analyze those entries, for which I was trying to add Official names, in fact, the Official names were omitted, or rather, previously removed. Removed by "previous authors" in your answer, who were actually pretty much destructive in removing the official names of the Republic of Azerbaijan and this is the major violation of the same normative acts. Would you mind to comment on that?

Now, if we agreed that "my rules"  and "above-mentioned normative acts" are all good, how about to strictly follow them? 
I am going to start restoring the official names on a territory which is internationally and legally recognized as the territory of
Azerbaijan Republic and I would like to invite you to watch this development by examining my proposed changes and their implementation.
I would like to sure that those official names (provided with the proper justifications, documents which you can find in older messages in this thread from gr8vision) will be locked to avoid further havoc and disturbance with the maps.
Obviously, to be able to do this, I would need my account be removed from the spam list. Could you do that, please?
I would let you know the profiles of my friends (who also tried to mitigate this problem with the official names) so we could do it much faster.
Any objections?

rrm

    
   

[Umbraro]

Hi rrm,

A process of controlled change of the names of geographic features in the Karabakh and Naxcivan regions as you propose would be a good step. But we have to be sure that we reach a situation which does reflect the current situation. That would mean that both the official names of the places as recognized by the current government, and the common names used by local ethnic groups are represented in a way which is agreed upon by all parties. This includes you and your mapping friends, Vi Khan and others representing the view of the Armenian side and also important Google and their local Map Maker advocates.

Before starting a process of unlocking currently locked accounts, I think it is wise that we discuss further in this thread about an acceptable naming policy. Input from all parties in this process is appreciated. Serge and I as Map Maker advocates for the Central Asian region can take a role to see if the proposal matches Map Maker guidelines. When necessary we can discuss issues with Google representatives internally.

I hope you will take the role to represent the view of the Azerbaijani, but we still need someone who is willing to represent the view from the other side.

[rjhintz]

I haven't reviewed the usual practice in all disputed areas, but the usual problem is assigning Official names.  The simplest proposal would be:

• Armenian name as Local or Preferred, not both.  Probably Local. 
  
• Azerbaijani name as Preferred in as many of Arabic, Cyrillic, and Latin as are available

Then, possibly, English transliteration of Armenian as Preferred and transliteration of Azerbaijani as Obscure.

Do not assign Official, which would be useful to have, but is under constant dispute and leads to vandalism and ill feeling.

--

Rich

[Raffi]

gr8vision, thank you for the link, it was quite interesting.  unfortunately, you are misrepresenting what the post says exactly.  the very first paragraph of "Google's Mission" on this topic is: 

Google's mission: In all cases we work to represent the "ground truth" as accurately and neutrally as we can, in consistency with Google's mission to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful. We work to provide as much discoverable information as possible so that users can make their own judgments about geopolitical disputes. That can mean providing multiple claim lines (e.g. the Syrian and Israeli lines in theGolan Heights), multiple names (e.g. two names separated by a slash: "Londonderry / Derry"), or clickable political annotations with short descriptions of the issues (e.g. the annotation for "Arunachal Pradesh," currently in Google Earth only; see blog post about disputed seas).

So you see, they want the "GROUND TRUTH".  The truth on the ground is, that everybody on the ground in Stepanakert, calls the city Stepanakert.  Everyone in Shushi/Shusha, calls it Shushi now.

To go deeper into what the mission says, is that they want to represent ALL the claim lines in a geopolitical dispute.  That means showing the borders of Karabakh!  So you really have pointed out an interesting document and Google policy indeed. 

The very last paragraph, is this:

Sometimes these factors compete with one another. For example, is localizing a place name inconsistent with Google's mission? What happens when an authoritative references does not seem to represent the truth on the ground? What about when local user expectations don't match international convention, or when local laws prohibit acknowledging regional conflicts? These are questions we continue to think through in our efforts to provide comprehensive, authoritative, free, and, most importantly, useful products for our users.

Again, it seems that even Google is not certain about what is right in disputed areas.  So your claim that the policy is on your side is...  not so in fact.   I could even take it a step further and say that the local laws you refer to, in fact refer to the laws of Stepanakert and Karabakh, since these are the ONLY laws in effect on those lands.

[Raffi]

In what world are the UN, US and ISO neutral?  Not this one.

[Raffi]

I have lived in Karintak for a brief time, and worked there.  That is an Armenian village, it has been for centuries if not millenia.  If you told them they lived in a place called "Dasalti" they would laugh at you.  They never have.  It doesn't matter if Baku wishes their village was called Dasalti, nor if the UN is in the business of protecting the status quo and ignoring the right to self-determination unless certain states desire to see it happen.

The name of the village "on the ground" is Karintak.  The "local" laws say that it is Karintak, and that is in fact the name of that village in Armenian.  We cannot tell you the name of Yerevan in Azerbaijani must by Yerevan.  You can call it Erivan, New Baku, or Gobbldygook.  That's your language and your business.  We will thank you to stay out of our language, and tell us what the Armenian names of places are.  Thanks.

I already posted the actual google policy above and there is no policy forcing us to use what you consider to be official.

[Raffi]

Do you not understand that it is insulting to say that the Armenian names of places are "obscure and made up names"?   Seriously?  That's pretty ridiculous.

[Raffi]

First of all, I must correct you.  Yerevan was founded nearly 3,000 years ago as the fortress of "Erebuni".  That was 2,000 years before any Turkic speaking person showed up on the scene, thank you very much.

Second of all, I have said this on multiple occasions here.  If you want to add Azeri names for Yerevan, Vayk, or any other town in Armenia, feel free.  I don't mind at all.  If it is in fact that Azeri name for the place, and Azeris might search on Google Maps for it, and find it because you have added it, that's great.  If a European reads a text by an Azeri and looks up the Azeri name and finds it in Armenia, that is also great.  That is, in fact, what Google maps is here for!

[Raffi]

Thanks for the suggestion, Rich.

Umbraro and Serge, I would like to repost the following from the Google Maps Mission: "We work to provide as much discoverable information as possible so that users can make their own judgments about geopolitical disputes. That can mean providing multiple claim lines (e.g. the Syrian and Israeli lines in theGolan Heights)"

So what do you think of the issue of the disputed Karabakh border being represented?  I have said it before and I'll say it again.  It's actually dangerous to not show a border that, if you drive up to it or try to walk across it, you could get shot at...

[Yuska]

What in the world are you talking about? What "ground" are you seeing? The Azeri community of Nagorno-Karabakh has gone through ethnic cleansing and every last one of Azeris forced out, many massacred and with force the control by Armenian forces has been established. If this violent approach had been acceptable, the world, or at least one country would have recognized the current de-facto regime as a government. This is insane to think that one ethnic group can force out the second and illegally rename the legal names of locations. Would you be so convenient if a neighboring state occupied a chunk of Armenian territory and started renaming every town and village? Not really, and the international community shouldn't either as is the case with Azerbaijan's Karabakh region. The locals may call it whatever the heck they want and that's why there is an option for obscure names but the official names (read again, OFFICIAL NAMES which means they are the names given by the de-jure government AND accepted by the international community and governments as such) have to remain Azerbaijani. What part of this is hard for you to understand?

[Vi Khan]

Couldn't you tell me please, where're all the Armenians that lived in Azerbaijan? What happened with Armenians in Sumgait, Kirovabad and Baku? And what happened with khachkars in Nakhchivan in 2005?

[rjhintz]

Hi Yuska and Vi Khan,
  Nothing is going to be solved if this discussion becomes only a political dispute. 

Yuska,
  Local names get the "Local" attribute. "Obscure" in the Google Map Maker context means "former."

See my suggestion above for a way to remove most of the dispute about what a feature is to be named and to continue to add value to the map, essentially avoiding the use of "Official" names.  Many features don't have Official names, just Preferred or Local, occasionally both.
--
Rich

[Yuska]

ViKhan, of course I can. Most of Armenians that lived in Azerbaijan left the country for other countries, other than Armenia, getting a refugee status and resettling in US, France, Russia and some in Armenia. They were refugees from another country. By the way, 30,000 Armenians still live in Azerbaijan, in Baku and Sumgait. The pogroms in Baku, Sumgait and Ganja were a direct response to pogroms of Azerbaijanis by Armenians in Armenian cities of Masis, Gugark in 1987 and early 1988. Moreover, the pogroms in Sumgait were ignited by killing of two Azeri youth by Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh and moreover, Sumgait pogroms are not so "pogromish" as it may seem since they were led by Armenian Edik Grigoriyan and 6 Azeris died along with their Armenian neighbors.

What's the situation in Armenia? Is there a single Azeri living in Armenia? How about Nagorno-Karabakh area of Azerbaijan? When Armenian refugees escaped from another country, Azerbaijanis became refugees in their own country. What khachkars can you even talk about when not a single (except for Blue Mosque) Azerbaijani monument or cemetery is saved in Armenia?

This discussion leads nowhere. Official is official. The area is internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan and should be marked on the maps as such.

[Yuska]

Rich, if "obscure" means anything like "former" in GMM context, then the obscure names should certainly represent several names which were given to names of villages during Soviet times. For instance, the city of Khankendi which is the legal name of town since 1991 and before 1922, should not be Stepanakert but Khankendi, and Stepanakert should be added as "obscure".

I really don't understand this unjust approach. Why and how can the legitimate names of cities and villages be changed with so much disregard to international law? There have been so many sources presented above and I can present an impartial (non-Azeri, non-Armenian) source for each village, and yet it is being ignored. How can one country occupy the territory of another country and start renaming names disregarding the international law? I repeat. Not a single country has recognized NKR and there is not a single impartial source which supports those names except for Armenian.

 

Official names have to be the ones given by legitimate and recgonized government. Obscure, local or any other alternative names can follow but only after official legitimate names. What's so inconvenient about this international practice?

[rjhintz]

Hi Yuska,
 There can be several Obscure names assigned to a feature.

There may be many Preferred names, one per language as I've explained.

If you are here to improve maps, go ahead and assign accurate Preferred names in whatever languages you wish (see above for details).  If anyone removes or vandalizes the accurate Preferred, Local, or Obscure names you assign, submit feedback or post here.

As a practical matter, there is nothing to be gained in terms of improving maps by assigning Official names in disputed areas.  We don't do it in the Thailand/Cambodia border area or many, many other disputed areas. 

If you want to have a political discussion about this specific disputed area, please go somewhere else.  If all we did was talk about disputed areas, of which there are many in the world, that's all we'd be doing.  See, for example, Tibet.
Thanks.
--
Rich

[Vi Khan]

Hi Rich,
In Karabakh Azerbaijani names are former or appeared after 1991(so no one local has ever used them) and I think in Azerbaijani they can be preferred but in other languages I consider they should be obscure. Armenian names should remain preferred because they are useful in navigation and currently people living in that area use only them.

Vi Khan

[rjhintz]

Hi Vi Khan,

  Please see my previous explanation.

A town may have multiple Preferred names, 

• one in Armenian, 
  
• as many as 3 in Azerbaijani (Arabic, Cyrillic, Latin)
  
• one in English (though I can see how a transliterated name might be disputed)
• one in French, Chinese (Traditional), and so on.

Only one Local or Preferred name is required for a town/city/village.  Many features need no name at all.

"Preferred" in GMM jargon does not mean "Better."  "Obscure" means "Former."  

Mapper may choose to characterize a name as Local instead of Preferred.  The way it's supposed to work is that the name in the Preferred language will be displayed if that's the language the mapper has set for their personal map display.

So, Yuska would presumably see an Azerbaijani name.  You would see an Armenian name.  There are lots of places in the Middle East with Arabic names only.  When I view them I only see the assigned Arabic name.

As I said up at the top of this thread, this issue comes up regularly.  If we can all agree to not engage at the political level, even when seemingly provoked, it just makes life a bit easier.  We're not going to solve the problems of disputed areas here.

--

Rich

[Vi Khan]

Why only 30,000 Armenians live in Azerbaijan? You don't count 140,000  Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh? You don't recognize Karabakh part of Azerbaijan? 

Why except Blue Mosque? There're several Turkic mausoleums(1 in Yerevan and about 10 in Karabakh(I've visited 3 of them)),   mosques in Akna, Berd(Hadrut) and 3 in Shushi, old cemeteries in Zorakert, Aghitu, many cemeteries in Karabakh and non of them was destroyed. There were many earthquakes and wars and many monuments were ruined and unfortunately during Soviet era they weren't restored.

And about 30,000 Armenians in Azerbaijan, I have another information. According to neutral sources there're about 3,000 Armenians and almost the same situation is in Armenia+Karabakh(there's no official data because Armenia has signed a UN convention according to which the states take an obligation not to publish statistical data related to groups under threat or who consider themselves to be under threat if these groups are not numerous and might face problems).

And I couldn't find anything about pogroms in Masis and Gugark,

Sorry for off-top.

[rjhintz]

Hi Vi Khan,

  Please take your dispute somewhere else.

--

Rich

[Vi Khan]

Yes, I'm agree;

[Yana Werner]

Serge, you are making a baseless statement. I have no idea who gr8vision, Ruan_SA, rrm, Yuska and others are. You cannot call us "a one person". Just check our IP addresses, you will see that they all are different.
Besides, you write "When I'm looking on rrm or Yana Werner profiles, I see no one feature created ". How can I create a feature, if I am blocked and all my efforts are denied by a coordinated GROUP of users? Unblock me and don't let the abuser deny my features, and I will be able to work.
If Vi Khan, Raffi and others can block in one day so many users, then what is so surprising that we all start complaining on the same day?
Block them all, and you will see that they all start complaining simultaneously.
Besides, does it matter who joined when? We are talking about the subject, not technicalities.

[Yana Werner]

It is ridiculous what YOU are saying. The Armenian name, unless it matches with the official name, is obscure.

[Yana Werner]

<I'm trying to remain neutral, but when some people start to use an international project for nationalism, humiliation one nation and even threats of combat sweep, while under cover UN and other documents as a shield, - maintain neutrality becomes more and more difficult.>

Serge, I disagree here. All the inputs to GMM features must be supported by a reliable reference. They cannot be taken from the air. There should be reference to a reliable source. When it comes to the territory of Azerbaijan (and, like it or not, but Nagorno-Karabakh is the territory of Azerbaijan), the right reference could be the decision of the government on the names of the settlements. But since many of you call the Azerbaijani sources "not neutral" (which is strange), we agree to a compromise and refer to official UN documents and documents of completely neutral third-party sources, which cannot be called "biased".
Now you call the UN documents a "shield" used to promote "nationalism, humiliation of nations", etc. How shall we understand this? If UN documents are not neutral, then which sources should be treated as reliable and official? The self-installed billboards at the entrance to the towns which are completely depopulated and dismantled till the last brick by a foreign army? Is that the right reference? Image that the GMM existed in 1941. Now imagine that the German army occupies Smolensk and renames it to "Hitlerberg". And all the German users create the feature and call it "Hitlerberg", denying and blocking the ones who try to change it to Smolensk. Would that be right?
Serge, we turn to you because you are supposed to be neutral. If you are siding with that group only because they were here for several years (several years of damaging!), how shall we feel?

[Yana Werner]

Serge, the questions you are asking in P.S. are largely irrelevant, because it changes the subject. What is relevant is the point of discussion: a group of users abuses GMM's privileges and does not let the others work.
But since you are curious, I will explain. There was an article in the Azerbaijani online newspaper 1news.az about the Armenian vandalism in the map of Azerbaijan in Google Map. I assume, we are the five people who do not know each other and have read the article. I assume, we decided (without coordination, spontaneously, individually) to join GMM and start correcting the map. Yes, on the same day, when the article was published, individually, without any coordination. And then we all were immediately blocked by Vi Khan, Raffi, etc. Of course, we would think where to turn with our complaint. And this is how we came to this forum, again simultaneously. But we do not know each other, you can even check our IP addresses, if you see them.
Actually, I regret that we are only 5. I wish 5000 people have read that article and 500 of them decided to join GMM.
Now, please remove the automatic block and let me start doing my edits.

[Yana Werner]

There should be a clear policy. Everyone who violates it, must be permanently banned regardless of the years spent in GMM and irrespective of the number of edits made, even if it is 1 million! The fact that Vi Khan, Raffi, Garegin and others spent several years in GMM and made thousands of edits does not give them the right to abuse and any immunity from being banned if they violate the policy.

The policy should be simple:
1) GMM must consider only the de-jure states and not the "self-proclaimed" and "de-facto" entities, which call themselves "a state".
2) There are the internationally recognized territory of Armenia and the internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan, including the Nagorno-Karabakh region and the three currently occupied exclaves - Kerki, Barkhudarli and Yuxari Askipara. Nothing is disputed - Armenian territory is Armenian territory, Azerbaijani territory is Azerbaijani.
3) In the territories of the two states - Armenia and Azerbaijan - the settlements must carry only ONE official name in the alphabet of that country. The official name is the one assigned by the government, and not by the locals.
4) There can be names in other languages, but it should be the transliteration of the official name. For example, if the official name of the Azerbaijani town is "Shusha", then Armenians are free to add the name in the Armenian alphabet, but in Armenian it should say "Shusha", not "Shushi".
5) It is up to GMM to decide whether the settlements can carry hundreds of other obscure names. But then it should be the two-way traffic, meaning if Armenians can add the Armenian name of "Stepanakert" to the official name "Khankendi", then Azeris must be free to add Azerbaijani names to the official names in Armenia, e.g. "Hamamli" to "Spitak".
6) If anyone denies someone's edit, there should be a clear explanation why he denied it. Failure to provide explanation must be taken as an abuse.
7) There should be a neutral arbitration board that should review complaints, take decisions, block the abusers and lock the settlements for further edits.

[Yana Werner]

Serge, what do you mean by BRAVO? Do you accept the rules suggested by rrm? If yes, then please unblock my account (I have no second account to surrender), and I will start making changes in full accordance with these two rules. If anyone denies my edits, I will ask you to intervene and investigate and see who is abusing - me or the one who denies my edit.

[Yana Werner]

I strongly disagree. The territory of Azerbaijan is not "disputed", contrary to how many people out here would like to see. It is internationally recognized as the territory of Azerbaijan, period! There must be no single settlement left without official name, because absense of the official name will raise the question about the territory being part of the sovereign state.
There must be one official name for every settlement or geographical unit in Armenia and Azerbaijan. Only one, but not less than one. In Armenia it is the name assigned by the Armenian government, and in Azerbaijan it is the name assigned by the government of Azerbaijan.
If the Armenian users are free to add Armenian names (local or obscure) to the settlements in Azerbaijan, then it should be the other way around - Azeri users must be able to add historical Azerbaijani names to the settlements in Armenia.

[Yana Werner]

<Again, it seems that even Google is not certain about what is right in disputed areas.  So your claim that the policy is on your side is...  not so in fact.   I could even take it a step further and say that the local laws you refer to, in fact refer to the laws of Stepanakert and Karabakh, since these are the ONLY laws in effect on those lands.>

Well, you are confusing the legal terms. The law is law only when it is legal. When it is illegal it is not law, even if "local". The only law is what is de-jure and not de-facto, otherwise it is not law. Anyway, it is not the subject now.

[Yana Werner]

Well, it is fine to have the "on the ground" name Karintak as "local", but it cannot be official, since the local authorities, and even the ones in Khankendi, are not official per se. So, no matter how much the local people hate the name Dasalti, this will be the only official name form this village. But you are free to add Karintak as "local", and we are free to add Irevan as obscure.
For your information, UN is not trying to preserve status quo, as you mistakenly argue, and it was very clear about self-determination contexts.

[Yana Werner]

Ah, sure, Yerevan's source are more "neutral".

[Umbraro]

If the territory is disputed or not doesn't matter in this case. Google allows, and even encourages the addition of names in extra languages to features on the map as long as these names have historic value, and/or are used by people. If a feature has both Armenian and Azerbaijani names, both should be added to the map.

[Yana Werner]

This is not the place to discuss ancient history, especially its Armenian version. We are discussing official, local, obscure names for current settlements.

[rjhintz]

Hi Yana Werner,

  What is gained by assigning Official names to every settlement that is over and above the added value of assigning Preferred names in Azerbaijan languages, Armenian, and any other languages?  Most sites in the world have only Preferred names, occasionally Local names.  I am unclear on your insistence on Official names.

Assigning historically accurate names as Obscure/Former should be allowed in any language.  As I said earlier, if appropriate names are deleted, this should be reported.

--

Rich

[Yana Werner]

I would again disagree that settlements in Azerbaijan must be left without their official names when they actually HAVE those official names.

[Yana Werner]

Rich, the point is that not a single inch of the territory of Azerbaijan is "disputed". It is fully internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan,and I can provide thousands of international resolutions to prove this. Therefore, the settlements must have their official names, which are the ones assigned by the government.
The occupation by a foreign country does not make the territory disputed and does not deprive the settlements of their official names.
No politics here.

[Saikrishna Arcot]

To all those who have their accounts blocked:

Map Makers cannot unblock other people's accounts. Only Google can do it. Therefore, saying "Please unblock my account" in every single post is counterproductive, as only Google Employees can unblock accounts.

[rjhintz]

Hi Yana,

  I guess each of us will have to decide based on what we read in this thread whether the territory is disputed in the usual meaning of the English word and whether there are "no politics here."

If you would like to contribute value to the map, please add names as I've suggested.

--

Rich

[Umbraro]

Hi Yana Werner,

Some remarks on the points you raised.

1) GMM considers all names for features used by people, regarding of their political/official status.
3) Actually features in Google Map Maker don't need to have official names. And preferred and local names often render with higher priority on the maps than official names.
4) Names in other languages should be names actually used, not made-up names which are the result of transliteration from one script to another.
5) Yes, If there are specific Azerbaijani names for places in Armenia, please add them. It will enrich the map and makes them useful for a larger group of people. And please add them as Preferred, as it will make the chance higher that they will be visible on the maps.
6) Comments are already mandatory for all denials in the Map Maker system.
7) I don't think there is an official board at Google for disputes in Map Maker, but the Map Maker regional advocates are a good way to discuss these issues with. They try to be neutral and objective in their views and can take important concerns back to the Google team.

[Yana Werner]

Dear Umbraro,

1) At the moment, I cannot do anything - I am blocked for God knows what reason and I asked admins hundred times to unblock me, but no one unblocks me.
If you can unblock me, please do - I will appreciate.
After that, please see what I will do: I will add a historical Azerbaijani name to the Armenian town (I can even provide reliable sources to prove that this name existed) and it will be immediately denied by Vi Khan, who really abuses the system.

2) Re: official names. Maybe features do not have to necessarily have them, but if they exist, why not having them?

Yana

[Nigar Gasim]

@ Rich - Thank You! I should use a nick LMAO if I knew there would be even discussions like this on Google Map :). I would laugh if it wasn't actually this sad... and stupid.

@ everyone else defending Armenian Names in Azerbaijan: Armenian names can NOT be official on AZERBAIJANI territories INCLUDING Nagorno-Karabakh region of AZERBAIJAN. The end of story! No arguments about that. That is the LAW.  

[Umbraro]

None of the regular users or advocates on this forum is able to push the unlock button for a specific account. The only thing we could do is support an unlock request which is sent to the Google team. But I think before any accounts are unlocked which were locked due to activity in the Karabakh and Naxcivan regions are unlocked it is good to wait for the outcome of this thread to see if it is possible to compile a commonly agreed set of editing rules in your region. That makes it easier when everyone is starting to edit again to distinguish the mappers with good intentions from those who are abusing the system.

Official names in Map Maker or not what you think they are. "Official" was introduced to mark names which are used on official documents by the government, but which are not necessarily used in common conversations. For example "Republic of Azerbaijan" is the official name of the country, but "Azerbaijan" is the common name of the feature in Map Maker http://www.google.com/mapmaker?gw=39&fid=0x4039543670749e67:0xf2c6e10ed45832e4 The shorter name is marked as "Preferred" and visible on all map views. Due to the rendering algorithms in Google geo products, Official names have actually a lower chance of being displayed on a map than preferred names. That is why I proposed to add names as preferred, rather than official. Although it seems counter productive, it actually helps to get the names in your language displayed on the map. Marking feature names as preferred instead of official also avoids political loaded discussions as Rich already mentioned some posts earlier.

[rjhintz]

Here's a use case I would like to see addressed:  

I am a traveler in the Nagorno-Karabakh region (I think we may be able to agree that it is a region, though perhaps not).  I am in town 1 and want to go to town 2, also in the region.  

I telephone a taxi service.  I have a Google Map showing the region. I don't read Armenian, the local language.  Using the map, how do I pronounce a name for the other town so I can be driven there?  In this case I can't pronounce the Armenian script and the Azerbaijani Latin, if shown, would probably not be recognized.

By the way, those of you interested in some active political discourse are welcome to contribute to the appropriate Wikipedia articles.  That's really not our focus here. 

--

Rich

[Nigar Gasim]

Since when Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan is a disputed territory?! Yes, all Azerbaijani cities, towns, villages are occupied in Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan by Armenian Armed forces, however, Azerbaijan did NOT give up any of the occupied territories including, but not limited to Nagorno-Karabakh region. Moreover, NO ONE, not even Armenia, recognized any "NKR": http://www.epress.am/en/2011/01/27/why-armenia-cannot-recognize-abkhazia-south-ossetia-independence.html

I can't teach history here. Facts speak for themselves.

[Vi Khan]

Hi Rich

I just came to say I'm sorry but I'm not going to continue any discussion with Yana Werner, gr8vision, rrm, Nigar Gasim, etc. I don't believe these are different users, they appeared one after one and they were making the same edits, approving edits of each other and living the same comments. There're many good mappers in Azerbaijan(Anar, Elcin, AzER, XP670, Rashid and others) and I want them to represent Azerbaijani side in this discussion.

Thanks&Regards,
Vi

[rjhintz]

Hi Vi,

  I have no authority here, but it's fine with me if you continue to discuss naming. I just don't think the political discussion adds any value or resolves anything in this forum, no matter from whom.

Thanks for your note.

--

Rich

  

[Umbraro]

As I said, it doesn't matter of a territory is disputed or not :) Please leave the political part of the issue out of the discussion because it is not relevant for the naming of features here. What is relevant is if feature names in different languages add value to the map.

[rrm]

Rich,

You are wrong from the start - this area in NOT DISPUTED in any way. This is legally and internationally recognized territory of
Azerbaijan Republic, and THIS CANNOT BE CHANGED!
There is no such thing as legitimate local authorities in Nagorno Karabakh, unless you state from your liberal and democratic principles that after depriving the local Azerbaijanis from their rights of vote in Karabakh, kicking them out, destroying their homes and property. stealing everything from the occupied territories, this could be considered as disputed area??
You are probably forgetting that changing names on the occupied territories is not a nice practice, but actually constitutes a crime.
I don't think that you want to associate yourself with the people which will be eventually  responsible for their crimes in Karabakh, do you?  So, are you seriously considering to stand for it?
 
I am seriously suspecting that you do not understand all the gravity of this situation. Good analogy would be to support Germans in World War II to annex territories. I certainly hope that you are not of that kind.    

Your suggestion about the ordering of names is not good, either.

The way it would be is following.

1. The official names are Azerbaijani and have to be LOCKED !
2. Azerbaijani names ANYWHERE on the territory of Azerbaijan (obviously including all its parts, Karabakh and Nakhchivan, cannot
be written as  Obscured - this is nonsense. 
3. Armenian names could be Obscured, but CANNOT be Official. Preferred is Azerbaijani names in English.

I hope, you would consider this preposition seriously. Do not transform Map Maker service into charade.
Thanks to those gang of abusers, it certainly looks like it now.

rrm

[rrm]

Vi Khan,

Do  no try to present yourself better than you are. You have deliberately spammed the area with your ridiculous edits. Don't refer to all other "Azerbaijani" users - I am pretty sure if they are, indeed, Azerbaijani mappers, they would not shake hands with you. NEVER. 
I am the Azeri person, whom you are constantly denied, while 100% of my edits are correct and valid, while your edits on the territory of Azerbaijan all are FALSE.
I told you in our exchange of comments - that you do not know the area.You even tried to make change in the area, you have absolutely no chances to see or know. I have multiples proves of that. Who are you trying to fool here.
I am really sorry for those admins who have approved that crap Vi Khan, Raffi etc. put on OUR map.

Well, if you would be a bit intelligent, you would probably recognize that all comments against your  "activities" are indeed come from different people.  One no need to be Mr. Sherlock Holmes for that.

rrm
   

[gr8vision]

dear Raffi, the Google policy is very clear, please don't twist it or misinterpret it. Your own reply is contradictory, in fact. Google supports and relies only on official, unbiased, neutral sources - and that's UN, ISO, and U.S. State Department.

[gr8vision]

Raffi, if you go that deep into history, then please note that when "Erebuni" was founded by the Urartian (Bianlini) people, there were no Armenian-speakers either. Instead, there were only native Caucasian-speakers - the Urartian people, who were later (around 6th century) assimilated by the invading Armenians. Please keep that in mind next time, history of the region is quite interesting and tricky. 

[gr8vision]

Serge, your "nick" can be used as many times as necessary on the public forum as long as it complies with rules of the forum. Thanks.

Meanwhile, please show any proof of the highly offensive words you have targeted at me. I have shown that Google's official policy is different from your understanding of it, and it relies solely on official, neutral and unbiased sources such as UN, ISO, and U.S. Government, to delineate borders, name countries, name cities, name towns, villages and regions. All other names cannot be "official" or "preferred", nor can frivolously "translated" (instead of transliterated) or even made--up names be used. Thanks.

[gr8vision]

When one says "improve", it should be the opposite of "abuse" and "spam". Yet "ABUSE" is the best definition of the activity of users like ViKhan (PlusNinety). Just because he has been here for over a year and has tons of edits doesn't mean he has good intentions, good knowledge, or acts in good faith. Unfortunately, his track record proves otherwise -- ABUSE, ABUSE and once more ABUSE.

As of 5 users appearing 'at the same time' - you better believe it, or better, just check the IP addresses as well as analyze stylistically the writing style of all these users, not to mention their times of activity. It's hard to believe that you successfully managed a large forum if you don't discern between different people based on their times of activity, writing styles, etc.

[Nigar Gasim]

1. Quantity is not always quality, my friend... Looking at the quality that Google Maps are in -  i don't even need to give you an example.
2. Well, Serge, i am sorry to disappoint you, but don't always rely on your experience. There are always exceptions to the rules. Most of us still believe that there are only 3 dimentions when others can almost prove 11...
3. FYI: there are many more than just "five users" who think and write the same at the same time on the same theme. Once everyone else will find out how Google Maps misrepresents Azerbaijan and Azerbaijani territories, believe me, we are going to have many more people speaking up their minds, and to be honest with you, we all are either well coordinated or ..... just speaking The Truth.
4. Here i would like to thank you for highlighted in red text from your quote below. It is called UNITY.
5. Please, do me a favor and add "ABC" or spell check option here. I think it's a must in any decent forum.... 

Regards,

Nigar

 

P.S. True Official and Preferred Name. No clones here. LOCKED - meaning Non-editable... just like Maps should be....

 

 

On Sunday, August 21, 2011 12:37:45 PM UTC-5, Serge wrote:

When I say "improve", I mean the quantity and quality of the new features, created by users

When I'm looking on rrm or Yana Werner profiles, I see no one feature created (but see them entered into the project in one day). 

At the same time, viewing these profiles and reading the posts of gr8vision, Ruan_SA, rrm, Yana Werner, Yuska, I have the impression that I'm talking with a single person. I'm administrate a quite big Internet-Forum for 5 years. Sorry, but using my experience, I can't believe that in one day came five users at once, who think and write the same in the same theme.

[rjhintz]

Hi rrm,
  As I read Google Map Maker policies and practice, your proposal for naming is inconsistent with them.

Any name that is an accurate former or historic name can be characterized as Obscure.

I never said that names, in any language, specified should be characterized as Official. In fact, I said the opposite.

I don't understand what "Preferred is Azerbaijani names in English" means. Azerbaijani names can be Arabic, Cyrillic, or Latin (characters).

If you mean Latin, I agree, and have said, that features may have Azerbaijani (Latin) Preferred names as well as Armenian Preferred and [other languages] Preferred.

I agree with Umbraro that the question of disputed territory isn't relevant.  I shouldn't have included the concept in the discussion.
--
Rich

[Aliyev]

Rich,

I believe that you understand that there si big difference between "disputed" and "occupied". the Territory of Dagliq Qarabag (Nagorni-Karabakh as you refer to it) is occupied by Armenian forces. I do not want go in details I levae it to you to educate yourself on these matter. as you already said it is not political forum.

I think we need to have more constructive discussion rather than argue with each other

I agree with proposal above in this forum which I can outline as following

1. Revert all changes submitted by ViKhan and others
2. All cities and villages must show their official Azeri names (in Latin) and MUST BE LOCKED in order to avoid any further discussion
3. English transliteration should be added as second option
4. All other countries (languages) are welcome to add their version

My last point is that whatever Google Map is, it must obey all international laws. This will start damaging Google reputation and will lead to blocking Google service in many countries. Google must respect governments and rules

[rjhintz]

Hi Aliyev,
  Your proposal to revert all changes by "Vi Khan and others" is indiscriminate and not allowable by Map Maker policy.  Would you include gr8vision, Yuska, and Yana Werner, for example, in "others"?

I disagree with your proposal for assigning names characterized as Official for the reasons I gave earlier, several times.

Your proposal for English transliteration is too vague for clear understanding.

Your proposal for how names in other languages would be added is also lacking specifics that would allow evaluation.
--
Rich

[rrm]

Raffi,

Please do not repeat propaganda cliches here.  No one really believes in that misinterpretation of the history, what Armenian are trying to
do for quite some time.

Places in that area may be truly old, but Armenians have nothing to do that that. This place existed long ago before Armenian appearance. Armenians are Indo-Europeans,  which have no connection to the Caucasian people, who inhabited Caucasus from the immemorial times.
Azerbaijanis do not deny that they are Caucasian by origin - Caucasian Albania is one of the states/areas which formed Azerbaijanis down the centuries. By the way, Nagorno Karabakh (Upper Karabakh) was the part of Caucasian Albania, and still has its Christian heritage, that what Armenians have been trying  to  seize and convert.

Besides, I have no desire whatsoever to discuss historical aspects with people who have absolutely no idea about the area they are trying to spoil and litter with those made up names from made up history. 
Respect the laws and regulations of the Azerbaijani Republic, get some proper education and study this matter like a scientist - historian, not like a street shoemaker, which manipulates ideological cliches to justify the aggression against Azerbaijani people.
 
rrm
rrm

[rrm]

Hi,

Speaking of double accounts - I still do not have a prompt answer from admins - who was behind a mysterious "user" account,
who has put denials on many of my entries/edits.   I demand to reveal this user true identity. It is most likely one of the gang members.
I don't want to tolerate some double standards here. If some of the "old" mappers do have double accounts for some sneaky things,
they must surrender and reveal their double account names.

 rrm

[rrm]

Hi Rich,

It is good that so-called 'disputed territory" is out of consideration.  The territory can not be disputed after the act of aggression and occupation that what Rep. of Armenia committed on our lands. 


"Preferred is Azerbaijani names in English" just simply means the transliteration from the Azer Latin form, which may include additional characters which are not in English alphabet. Are you aware of that?

rrm

[Aliyev]

Rich,

I do not have time to argue with you for every single small detail. My proposal is very clear and I believe you understand what I mean. But I will try to elaborate, specially for you.

1. yes, all changes needs to wiped out and OFFICIAL and INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED names of cities and villages must be restored, added as official or preferred names in the GOOGLE MAP and LOCKED so nobody can change them. OFFICIAL NAMES on  Google Map needs to be sourced from official sources such as UN, EU courts, US congressional library and government organization to which this territory belongs (in this particular case the REPUBLIC of Azerbaijan).

2. ALL GOOGLE MAP MAKERS can add different names of cities and villages in different languages (French, Armenian, Arab, Persian whatever and whichever). No restrictions.

I kind of see what you are trying to achieve here. you aim is to keep this forum topic alive and keep arguing. because Google can not resolve this issue while people are debating on the forum.

[rjhintz]

Hi Aliyev,

  Details are important.  I'll leave it to others to judge whether they are material.

Removing all changes is indiscriminate and not allowed by policy. 

Your point #1 conflates official and preferred names, which are different.  See GMM Help and previous discussion,

Your point #2, which does not address feature names with Preferred, Obscure, and similar attributes remains too vague for evaluation, especially with the qualifier "No restrictions," which seems inconsistent with your point #1.

--

Rich

[Umbraro]

Aliyev,
The locking scheme you propose is unfortunately not supported by GMM. Features can only be totally locked or totally unlocked. It is not possible to only lock one or a few attributes like the names in one or a few languages. If we are to allow names in other languages to be added then the name in your language will also be editable.

[Yuska]

I said 30,000 so you refresh your mind with statistics about Armenians specifically in Baku, Sumgait which you requested to clarify. And those are the cities where pogroms took place. In the meantime, there is no single Azeri in Armenia. Shushi is not Shushi, it's Shusha. Open your eyes and review the data. Shushi was never the name of the town. Ever since its founding by Panah Khan it was Shusha. It's not Akna, but Agdam. Take your irredentist agenda somewhere else.

[Yuska]

Rich,

 

With all due respect, do you understand the difference between occupied and disputed? There are numerous UN SC Resolutions, PACE, OIC resolutions on occupation of Karabakh and you're stating the territory is disputed? Do you understand what United Nations and law and order is? Helsinki Final Act? The territory is a part of a sovereign Azerbaijan whose territial integrity has been violated. If all minorities start popping up in various states and claim land, do you believe all those territories should be considered "disputed"? The term "DISPUTE" comes to life when its status is unidentified and contested and was not strengthened and recognized by any international law. The term "OCCUPIED" is used when a part of territory recognized and supported by international law is occupied by force. Does it make any sense?

Therefore, the legal names, that is, names recognized by legitimate government, hence by the international community, prevail and should be retained as OFFICIAL, which means the current illegitimate names added by users like ViKhan and Raffi, should be changed back to their original names as previously added by Google in the first place. Any names that are used by local Armenians or preferred by ViKhan and Raffi should be added as preferred because they are NOT official but preferred. How else can I explain the difference between the legitimacy and formal use (recognized by international community) and illegitimacy and informal use (recognized only by Armenians in the occupied territories of Azerbaijan)?!

 

Imagine I gather a force of armed men and occupy Boston by force and rename it to DILLAKH for example, open my local website and promote the name. Now, would that give a right to some DILLAKH residents or their sympathizers to go on adding the name as "official"? Does it make sense?