This seems like spam? walkways added in Captiva, FL

[Bill Meier]

There seems to be random "trails" (walkways) added all over the place here: http://goo.gl/U5JCL The usr "SH" has over 17,000 edits but I guess that doesn't mean they are always right? Since these have already been approved...

Here is a second group, different user. http://goo.gl/XBAPD they seem to be at best little paths beaten through the sand to the beach. Not significant...

[Andrew Sawyer]

Bill, specifically what do you have issue with these trails?  

I noticed you didn't like one that I drew in Nashua NH. 

On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Bill Meier via General Map Maker <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQeW...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

There seems to be random "trails" (walkways) added all over the place here: http://goo.gl/U5JCL The usr "SH" has over 17,000 edits but I guess that doesn't mean they are always right? Since these have already been approved...

Here is a second group, different user. http://goo.gl/XBAPD they seem to be at best little paths beaten through the sand to the beach. Not significant...

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the “General Map Maker” Google Group.
- To post a public response in this same thread, please reply to this e-mail.
- To find a list of Frequently Asked Questions, visit- http://goo.gl/yuVdY
- To post a new topic, visit- http://goo.gl/DeX9Z & select 'Post a question'
- To unsubscribe from this list, manage your subscriptions here: http://goo.gl/oGfnJ

Thanks for using Google Map Maker! =)
 
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "General Map Maker" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to google-mapmak...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Andrew Sawyer]

Wrong link, here it is: http://www.google.com/mapmaker?gw=39&fid=9935986689924242013:2445483969018959481

[Flash]

Bill, you're declaring that trails that mark places to walk are spam?  I'm curious, for what do you think trails are to be used?

[Geoffrey Perez]

Bill, for the first one, it looks like these trails are almost in the correct place (imagery shifted after placement), plus the trails look like they were drawn with the use of GPS overlays rather than the imagery itself, since it's curvy. Nonetheless, they do look like valid pedestrian paths to me.

I don't see why it should be thought of as spam when Google encourages trail mapping through campuses like here: http://googleforstudents.blogspot.com/2011/04/add-detail-to-your-campus-with-google.html (note where it says in the video, "shortcut to class"). If people can walk through areas without reasonable restriction ("keep off the grass" signs, "no trespassing" signs, fenced off, etc.) I don't see why logical paths like these can't be mapped, besides Google's own guidelines here: http://support.google.com/mapmaker/answer/1098068

Andrew's trail can be marked as I see it as a deviation from Hollis, and it joins directly at Panther because Panther already facilitates pedestrians via implicit sidewalk attributes.

On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Bill Meier via General Map Maker <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQeW...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

There seems to be random "trails" (walkways) added all over the place here: http://goo.gl/U5JCL The usr "SH" has over 17,000 edits but I guess that doesn't mean they are always right? Since these have already been approved...

Here is a second group, different user. http://goo.gl/XBAPD they seem to be at best little paths beaten through the sand to the beach. Not significant...

--

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the “General Map Maker” Google Group.
- To post a public response in this same thread, please reply to this e-mail.
- To find a list of Frequently Asked Questions, visit- http://goo.gl/yuVdY
- To post a new topic, visit- http://goo.gl/DeX9Z & select 'Post a question'
- To unsubscribe from this list, manage your subscriptions here: http://goo.gl/oGfnJ

Thanks for using Google Map Maker! =)
 
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "General Map Maker" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to google-mapmak...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--

Geoffrey Perez

http://about.me/geopgeop

[Bill Meier]

Flash,

I do agree that trails are used for walking :) But it is the converse that is the question... should every place where people walk be considered a "trail"? ... I don't believe so..

Is how I walk from apartment building A to B considered a trail just because I, and others, walk that way? Or what about the sidewalk that goes from the door of my place of work to the parking lot?

Here is another example: http://goo.gl/vnlIG You can see those "veins in the sand" .. are those "trails"? I have personally walked on them many times as I have stayed in the cottages that you can see on the map just to the east of them. I consider these random meandering of paths that just the guests of the cottages use to get to the beach. Should those be marked as "trails/paths?" I don't think they should...

I'm sure you agree that roads that you drive on aren't spam, but does that mean any place you can drive is a road? ...

I can not find it at the moment, but there was either an explicit guideline or a comment by a reviewer that driveways under 500' should not be drawn on the map. I suspect the reason is that it adds clutter and everyone could draw in their driveway with little added value (or perhaps a decrease in value). Their driveways are also private. I understand the modivation for longer driveways to be able to be drawn and I have such a long driveway myself (1000')

If you extend that to trails, I do think a trail should have a minimum length as well as probably being available for public access. In my example above, those are "private" in that they are just ways the guests in those cottages get to the beach. I happened to turn left around that bush and you happened to turn right... Now, we have two trails? ... As you can see in the view above, the trails branch out like the delta of a river from the "main trail" ...

To some degree this can be a question of semantics, but I do think the following should influence whether something is marked on the map as a trail

1) it is of some minimal length
2) it is open to the public
3) I admit this is fuzzy, but... "it was intentionally created for people to walk on" ... yes I know that this doesn't hold true for everything. a "beaten path" over time was not intentioally created in advance with foresight to aid in walking but perhaps should be marked.
4) Just because you can walk on it, or hundreds of people walk on it doesn't make it a "trail"

(I can't quite pin down exactly what should be the definition of "trail" for Map Maker but the above are just some quick thoughts that came into my head)

This was one set of "trails" I was commenting on. I do apologize for my use of the word "spam". That was inappropriate. The better question is are these significant enough to be marked trails?

Here is a more detailed zoom of the area I mentioned above: http://goo.gl/T8RKU At the very least they are not drawn very accurately. Over the roofs of buildings, on top of roads and zig-zagging through the middle of parking spaces. Should the walkway/path between sets of tennis courts be marked as a "trail" in Map Maker? I don't feel it should. Do you feel these should? Yes, people walk although "that path" From the satellite view it is not clear that these marked lines are anything of significance.

====

Andrew, with your trail at

http://www.google.com/mapmaker?gw=39&fid=9935986689924242013:2445483969018959481

my comment reflected the fact that the trail line was not completely drawn in and stopped and veered into the road at a random point rather than continuing on the "trail". I  have highlighted the path that the trail continues to make in red as you can see here. http://goo.gl/bHgpy I highlighted the rest of the path in transparent red. You can see some of it but also refer to the original satellite imagery to see what I drew on.

My thoughts are that with too lenient definition and application of "a trail" we are going to have the world covered in "trails" ...

My intent was not to offend either of the people whom I made specific comments about their work on the maps.

Perhaps part of the issue as well is what is the formal dictionary definition of a trail vs. what Map Maker considers a trail? I think we should all agree that the general rule of anything that is put on the map is "does this enhance map maker, what it shows and how it provides guidance?" As  you know, a number of features that appear on other maps have been dropped from map maker. I can't put my finger on it at the moment (I tried a search of the map maker help) but I believe the paths of electric transmission towers has been removed.

I hope this discussion was useful and can spur some additional thoughts from all of you. I believe we do all have the same goal... make map maker (well the generated map of course..) better. Just that there are varying degrees of what we feel quality that does that!

Bill

[Geoffrey Perez]

Perhaps they were drawn accurately at the time of placement since from the position of the roads it looks as if the imagery was shifted. I could go in and realign all the the roads and trails if you'd like (tedious) or Report a Problem to Google via Maps to fix the alignment (easier but uncertain of completion time), and hopefully it might look cleaner once that's done.

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the “General Map Maker” Google Group.
- To post a public response in this same thread, please reply to this e-mail.
- To find a list of Frequently Asked Questions, visit- http://goo.gl/yuVdY
- To post a new topic, visit- http://goo.gl/DeX9Z & select 'Post a question'
- To unsubscribe from this list, manage your subscriptions here: http://goo.gl/oGfnJ

Thanks for using Google Map Maker! =)
 
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "General Map Maker" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to google-mapmak...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Bill Meier]

Andrews trail review:

Since this was brought up by Flash and Andrew, I wanted to address my specific issue with Andrew's trail that he questioned me about. Here is the trail:

http://goo.gl/Oks2g

You can read his history and his sighting of the Google guidelines for trails at http://support.google.com/mapmaker/answer/1098068?hl=en

The initial part of the addition seemed odd and caught my eye at first was that the trail was drawn with the west end deviating from the actual path. He was adding a feature that did not exist on the map. The trail does not veer towards the southwest and meet Panther Drive as he drew it.

My drawing at http://goo.gl/bHgpy indicates where the trail actually goes. I believe the conflict came about in the interpretation of Google's rules above and how trails near roads should be treated. In his comments he mentions "The reason it was added this way was that trails aren't supposed to be added when the parallel a road way" ... Well.. yes and no...

To be specific, the guidelines do say "A trail that runs parallel to the road should not usually be drawn as a separate feature. You should update the Bicycle & Pedestrian Info of the existing road when the trail follows the shape of the road". I believe this was his motivation for ending the trail as he did and just draw the "short cut" over from the walkway to the road.

However in addition the guidelines say "You can draw a trail parallel to a road when ...  [parts of] the trail deviates significantly from the road." The east side of the trail does significantly deviate from the road so it was appropriate to draw that part of the trail.

The above section does say that you should draw the trail parallel to the road in places if at some points it also deviates from the road. Because of that I do believe the correct representation for the trail is to draw it in it's entirety. Some of the trail deviates from the road and some of it does not.

Rather than terminate the trail where it began to approach the road I believe he should have continued the trail parallel to the road as shown in the satellite view with my annotations: http://goo.gl/bHgpy

It is unfortunate that you can not see the rest of the trail as it is obscured by trees but I think Andrew has an idea where it goes? My guess is that it stops and intersects the road into the police parking lot?

====

So in summary

1) The trail was drawn over an area of land where the trail clearly did not go (the southwest veer of the trail to meet the road). That makes that part of the map inaccurate.

2) The guidelines do allow the parts of a trail that run parallel to a road to be drawn when parts of the trail also deviate from the road

3) The satellite image does give you a good indication of where the trail goes and finally ends so that section could be drawn

I'd like to improve my skills as a map maker and reviewer. Please help me and critic my more detailed review as I presented above. This is my best application of the "trails" guideline to this situation.

Thanks for you time,

Bill

[Flash]

I do agree that trails are used for walking :) But it is the converse that is the question... should every place where people walk be considered a "trail"? ... I don't believe so.. 

Map Maker is not a tool for your to inject your personal opinion of what should and shouldn't be mapped.  While we can't/don't map areas like a sports field where you can cross in any way; we do map definite trails.  Your examples are all examples of that.  That is what is recognized as a trail in the English language, even if you have a different definition.

I realize you are new here and may not understand all the guidelines and conventions; but you need to realize that also.  If a bunch of experienced mappers are doing the same thing but you don't understand it; it is more likely you don't understand how such things are handled rather than it being spam.  You definitely shouldn't be marking items as spam if you are unsure.

If there is a sidewalk along a road, we don't map it, but we indicate it on the road itself.  We do so even if there is a separation between the two.  However, if the trail has an official name, we map it.

When trails separate from a road (ie. not simply running parallel) and rejoin it or a different road, we just map the separated portion.  At the ends where it can then be considered sidewalk we then make a connection into the road so that walking and biking directions will work.

This is all from the guidelines.

 

Is how I walk from apartment building A to B considered a trail just because I, and others, walk that way

If it can be seen in the aerials, then yes; that's the definition of a trail.

 

Or what about the sidewalk that goes from the door of my place of work to the parking lot?

Probably can be mapped.  The marker for your work should be at the front door.  There's a reason for that, so that when the trail is drawn to your front door, walking directions will take people right to the door.  For driving directions, it will take you right to the intersection of the trail and the road.  So drawing in the trail makes directions exact.

 

Here is another example: http://goo.gl/vnlIG You can see those "veins in the sand" .. are those "trails"? I have personally walked on them many times as I have stayed in the cottages that you can see on the map just to the east of them. I consider these random meandering of paths that just the guests of the cottages use to get to the beach. Should those be marked as "trails/paths?" I don't think they should...

"paths that just the guests of the cottages use to get to the beach"... what exactly do you think the world trail means?  Paths that people use is called a trail.  The two words are synonyms.  But to prevent even the smallest amount of confusion; Google calls these "Trail / Path".  Each of the examples you have linked to are designated "Trail / Path".  So your argument really is that you don't think that paths where people walk should be marked as paths.  That makes no sense at all.

I'm sure you agree that roads that you drive on aren't spam, but does that mean any place you can drive is a road? ... 

Doesn't matter what you or I think, as I said this Maps is not a place to inject your own opinion.  If we go to the guidelines it will tell you about converting roads to trails and vice versa, which should give you a hint that you've identified the difference between these two types of lines.  For more you could go to the definition of a trail or path (stated that way to show you they are synonyms) where they state it is a "non-motorized facility".  So the guidelines say that yes, a line you can't drive on is a trail/path.

 

I can not find it at the moment, but there was either an explicit guideline or a comment by a reviewer that driveways under 500' should not be drawn on the map. I suspect the reason is that it adds clutter and everyone could draw in their driveway with little added value (or perhaps a decrease in value). Their driveways are also private. I understand the modivation for longer driveways to be able to be drawn and I have such a long driveway myself (1000')

Something you sort of remember about something unrelated has little bearing here.  You're talking about private driveways that should not be mapped.  These are public trails.  In you example at http://goo.gl/vnlIG, you would not park any trail that forks off and goes solely to a private home.  That's the way that this would equate.

 

If you extend that to trails, I do think a trail should have a minimum length as well as probably being available for public access. In my example above, those are "private" in that they are just ways the guests in those cottages get to the beach. I happened to turn left around that bush and you happened to turn right... Now, we have two trails? ... As you can see in the view above, the trails branch out like the delta of a river from the "main trail" ...

No, in your example most can take you to the public parking lot in the north, it is just the last bits that go to private cottages.  So you map all but the most eastern trails, so that someone way down the beach that asks his phone how to get to his car is not instructed to walk south to get the road to follow it to his car, but is rather lead along the most direct trails.

Look at it from another point of view; mapping all the trails except the portions leading exclusively to private property and not mapping the private driveways means that people will be able to find their way to the beach without cutting across private property.

And also, we are not talking about this example, we are talking about examples that are in one case straight, paved sidewalks in a facility open to the public and in the other case all lead to and from public places.  That's exactly how the Trail / Path designation would be used.  What good are walking directions if they only tell you how to walk down sidewalks along roads.

 

To some degree this can be a question of semantics, but I do think the following should influence whether something is marked on the map as a trail

1) it is of some minimal length
2) it is open to the public
3) I admit this is fuzzy, but... "it was intentionally created for people to walk on" ... yes I know that this doesn't hold true for everything. a "beaten path" over time was not intentioally created in advance with foresight to aid in walking but perhaps should be marked.
4) Just because you can walk on it, or hundreds of people walk on it doesn't make it a "trail" 

(I can't quite pin down exactly what should be the definition of "trail" for Map Maker but the above are just some quick thoughts that came into my head)

Again, you shouldn't be making up your own personal definitions.  Use the guidelines, and when they are unclear consult the long time users for the interpretation and/or conventions.

 

As for everything you brought up about Andrew's trail, I think you should be careful to read the guidelines before commenting on someone else's work.  You should especially do so when the mapper quotes them.  The portion you drew in red is defined as a sidewalk and is indicated by using the sidewalk attribute to Panther Drive.  Andrew was drawing in the portion where you could take a straight route across along an established, paved path rather than having to walk alongside the road.  He joins it back into the road at the first intersection where you rejoin the road system and thus are using sidewalks.

[Bill Meier]

I did find the guideline that discusses the addition of driveways so I wanted to add that information to this post. It says in part:

Driveways should only be mapped if the address is set back from the road or the driveway is used to reach the destination. A driveway should not be mapped if it’s relatively short and the destination is accessed from the road.

I guess it's left to the reader to decide what is relatively short or set back from the road. But this does indicate how to draw driveways.


On Saturday, February 23, 2013 9:37:58 PM UTC-5, Bill Meier wrote:

Flash,

...
I can not find it at the moment, but there was either an explicit guideline or a comment by a reviewer that driveways under 500' should not be drawn on the map. I suspect the reason is that it adds clutter and everyone could draw in their driveway with little added value (or perhaps a decrease in value). Their driveways are also private. I understand the motivation for longer driveways to be able to be drawn and I have such a long driveway myself (1000')

[Flash]

Don't forget that there will then be conventions, and the reviewers will enforce them.  So if you hear of lengths from reviewers, then it is not open for interpretation, but rather has been interpreted.

What you should also know is that the review guidelines give the trusted reviewers instructions to approve deletions of any driveway that does not lead to 3 or more homes.  Mapping every driveway is clutter and it also leads to people to explore private roads to see where the road on the map leads.  In general just the ones necessary for navigation are allowed.