High priority changes

[Titus Lee]

My apologies for not bringing this up earlier in the forum. Things seemed different back then.

I realize that many GRs & RERs are highly sensitive to any changes in road priorities.

However their recent edits of many high-quality roads, particularly in Quebec, Canada, greatly confuses me.

In the past, I've seen some lower-quality roads having been elevated to higher priorities.

One example is this section of the Trans-Canada Hwy; where two-lane undivided and four-lane divided sections had mismatched attributes.

While I understand that this map view is not in sync with mapmaker, it nonetheless reflects past GR edits which have since been modified.

Recently, however, the opposite has been happening:

This seems to be a localized trend in Quebec City where many Autoroutes have been downgraded from Freeway to National Highway. Another like example is Wheeler Blvd in Moncton, NB.

When considering these changes, "consistency" appears to trump all other aspects of a route. That brings up a few questions:

Do priorities change at a highway interchange to avoid "hanging dead-ends"? Although Expressways & Freeways rarely end at Major Arteries, that doesn't mean they never do.

Is this a cause for having priorities in a "graduated order"?

How is "consistency throughout the entire road network" defined? (I don't think Yonge Street is the world's longest)

This section of Lake Shore Blvd is National Highway. Further east and west however, it becomes Major Artery. Wouldn't this be considered an inconsistency?

To quote guidelines: "A Freeway ends at the first intersection that allows non-ramp access to the road. Designate all segments before the crossroad as Freeway;"

Of course, they are only guidelines and there are exceptions. But this seemingly inconsistently manner which they are applied just doesn't seem right.

[Flash]

In the past, I've seen some lower-quality roads having been elevated to higher priorities.

This is done on a case by case basis, and does not mean that all roads qualify to be raised.  You will also find roads being downgraded in priority.

 

One example is this section of the Trans-Canada Hwy; where two-lane undivided and four-lane divided sections had mismatched attributes.

While I understand that this map view is not in sync with mapmaker, it nonetheless reflects past GR edits which have since been modified.

I zoomed in on that section and then used the segment tool  to start on the undivided portion, continue along one side of the split portion, and the finish on the rejoined single portion.  When I go into the attributes, the only fields that have "Multiple Values" are Lanes and DIrection, as expected.  Also, the priority started at National Highway and continues at National Highway.  There are bits in the history of it being raised to Freeway, but you will notice there there is nothing about it being put back down.  That would be bits of the history bleeding over from other segments when they are later edited together using the segment tool, it happens and should be ignored.

I thus cannot understand what you are asking here, could you elaborate?

Recently, however, the opposite has been happening:

Again, it happens in both directions all the time, and you should not let it influence edits elsewhere.  Each edit is done on it's own merits.

Also remember that each area builds it's roads differently, and that different mappers or data suppliers might have preceded the latest Google effort in each area.  So one area might have more upgrades and another more downgrades in order to create consistency across the map.

 

This seems to be a localized trend in Quebec City where many Autoroutes have been downgraded from Freeway to National Highway. Another like example is Wheeler Blvd in Moncton, NB.

When considering these changes, "consistency" appears to trump all other aspects of a route.

You are once again trying to find a single factor on which to concentrate.  Just because several edits had consistency as a major factor does not make it THE major factor.  There is no sole major factor.  All criteria has to be considered.  And a big thing Googlers would be also working into the equation would be routing.  Sometimes a road may be changed in priority because it is being used by routing when another road is more preferred, or vice versa.

 

That brings up a few questions:

Do priorities change at a highway interchange to avoid "hanging dead-ends"?

Sometimes, yes.  Every situation is different and has to be looked at on it's own.  As an illustration, imagine an east-west freeway going all the way across the map.  Now imagine another north-south highway crossing it that is freeway to the north of the intersection and continues for a bit to the south.  Now if it was national highway for a large distance to the south and became multi-laned dual carriageway just a couple of kilometers before the intersection, then likely one would consider it just the acceleration/deceleration portion to the freeway and would leave it at national highway.  On the other hand, if it leads somewhere, such as downtown, then it might be a freeway to the south of the intersection also.  It's a case of analyzing the purpose, distance, where it leads, if there is a consistency issue to consider, and more.

 

Although Expressways & Freeways rarely end at Major Arteries, that doesn't mean they never do.

Is this a cause for having priorities in a "graduated order"?

What do you mean?  Are you saying that you would want to put a portion as National Highway in between?

 

How is "consistency throughout the entire road network" defined? (I don't think Yonge Street is the world's longest)

This section of Lake Shore Blvd is National Highway. Further east and west however, it becomes Major Artery. Wouldn't this be considered an inconsistency?

The National Highway that follows this portion of Lake Shore Blvd starts at 43.649447,-79.350694 and continues for 450km until it ends when it rejoins the freeway at 45.136085,-74.496295.  I would call that consistent.  I know I have seen GRs tell you to zoom out and look at the entire picture.  A route does not necessarily follow the road name, and may suddenly turn and follow a different road.

To quote guidelines: "A Freeway ends at the first intersection that allows non-ramp access to the road. Designate all segments before the crossroad as Freeway;"

Of course, they are only guidelines and there are exceptions. But this seemingly inconsistently manner which they are applied just doesn't seem right.

Yes, when you look at just that one criteria.  Again, everything needs be considered.

I'm glad to answer any questions that you have, but before you continue with general questions, would you care to present your reasoning behind your latest edit?  You have again changed a road to expressway without discussing it here first.

[Kingston-Mapper]

To add my voice, I have spotted a few highly questionable priority edits in London, Ontario, where a GR promoted roads of local significance such as Western Road to National Highway priority. Having lived in London in my college/university days, I found that edit truly bizarre, as that road is barely appropriate as a cross-town route, let alone a route of national importance. If I were relying on Google's Directions, I'd be pretty annoyed if I was sent from the south to the north end of London via Western Road instead of several more appropriate routes. Western Road does not have the capacity to take on additional traffic that this kind of edit could cause Directions to favour heavily (and the default speed of 85 km/h on National Highways doesn't help, either).

I discuss this over in the Review Edits Requests as well.

[Kingston-Mapper]

How is "consistency throughout the entire road network" defined? (I don't think Yonge Street is the world's longest)

This section of Lake Shore Blvd is National Highway. Further east and west however, it becomes Major Artery. Wouldn't this be considered an inconsistency?

The National Highway that follows this portion of Lake Shore Blvd starts at 43.649447,-79.350694 and continues for 450km until it ends when it rejoins the freeway at 45.136085,-74.496295.  I would call that consistent.  I know I have seen GRs tell you to zoom out and look at the entire picture.  A route does not necessarily follow the road name, and may suddenly turn and follow a different road.

There is a consistent route designated as National Highway priority along a series of local roads through some cities and towns that once had the administrative designation of King's Highway 2, but it has led to inconsistencies on some of these local roads. For example, Division Street in Kingston is a Major Artery priority for most of its length, but a 50-metre section of it gets to be National Highway priority just because it used to have a Highway 2 shield on it many years ago. That constantly screws up directions in Kingston's downtown for the average motorist who doesn't care about the nostalgia of old administrative designations of roads.

One could make the case that the National Highway designation on the former Highway 2 is motivated by only connectivity and (former) administrative designation. Large parts of it don't meet the rest of the criteria:

- Spans long distances and connect cities or towns (some of the individual roads that were part of Highway 2 in the past in urban areas do not span long distances, most notably Queen Street in Kingston)

- Speed limits usually within a range of 50-65 mph / 70-100 kph (large parts of it are urban and are 50-60 kph)

- Usually a two-way road with a few intersections (the long urban sections have more than a few intersections)

My point being, I think that there is still some failure on Google's part to properly assess certain road priority situations, instead imposing priorities based on opinions generated by people thousands of miles away.

[Titus Lee]

In the past, I've seen some lower-quality roads having been elevated to higher priorities.

This is done on a case by case basis, and does not mean that all roads qualify to be raised.  You will also find roads being downgraded in priority.

 

One example is this section of the Trans-Canada Hwy; where two-lane undivided and four-lane divided sections had mismatched attributes.

 

While I understand that this map view is not in sync with mapmaker, it nonetheless reflects past GR edits which have since been modified.

I zoomed in on that section and then used the segment tool  to start on the undivided portion, continue along one side of the split portion, and the finish on the rejoined single portion.  When I go into the attributes, the only fields that have "Multiple Values" are Lanes and DIrection, as expected.  Also, the priority started at National Highway and continues at National Highway.  There are bits in the history of it being raised to Freeway, but you will notice there there is nothing about it being put back down.  That would be bits of the history bleeding over from other segments when they are later edited together using the segment tool, it happens and should be ignored.

I thus cannot understand what you are asking here, could you elaborate?

I was just highlighting a previous edit, now undone. Otherwise, I don't have much to say, now that everything is in right order except this pending section.

Recently, however, the opposite has been happening:

Again, it happens in both directions all the time, and you should not let it influence edits elsewhere.  Each edit is done on it's own merits.

Also remember that each area builds it's roads differently, and that different mappers or data suppliers might have preceded the latest Google effort in each area.  So one area might have more upgrades and another more downgrades in order to create consistency across the map.

 

This seems to be a localized trend in Quebec City where many Autoroutes have been downgraded from Freeway to National Highway. Another like example is Wheeler Blvd in Moncton, NB.

When considering these changes, "consistency" appears to trump all other aspects of a route.

You are once again trying to find a single factor on which to concentrate.  Just because several edits had consistency as a major factor does not make it THE major factor.  There is no sole major factor.  All criteria has to be considered.  And a big thing Googlers would be also working into the equation would be routing.  Sometimes a road may be changed in priority because it is being used by routing when another road is more preferred, or vice versa.

 

 And how is routing determined? Is it "made up as you go"?

 

That brings up a few questions:

Do priorities change at a highway interchange to avoid "hanging dead-ends"?

Sometimes, yes.  Every situation is different and has to be looked at on it's own.  As an illustration, imagine an east-west freeway going all the way across the map.  Now imagine another north-south highway crossing it that is freeway to the north of the intersection and continues for a bit to the south.  Now if it was national highway for a large distance to the south and became multi-laned dual carriageway just a couple of kilometers before the intersection, then likely one would consider it just the acceleration/deceleration portion to the freeway and would leave it at national highway.  On the other hand, if it leads somewhere, such as downtown, then it might be a freeway to the south of the intersection also...

A-573 leads to a military base. A-440 & A-973 lead to downtown. Aren't those destinations considered "somewhere"?

Roads are used by travellers to reach multiple

 

Although Expressways & Freeways rarely end at Major Arteries, that doesn't mean they never do.

Is this a cause for having priorities in a "graduated order"?

What do you mean?  Are you saying that you would want to put a portion as National Highway in between?

 

That is implied by what you are saying:

 

Now if it was national highway for a large distance to the south and became multi-laned dual carriageway just a couple of kilometers before the intersection, then likely one would consider it just the acceleration/deceleration portion to the freeway and would leave it at national highway.

 

I'd agree with you too if it's just a short stretch past a highway interchange, but this is taking the concept too far.

[Flash]

 And how is routing determined? Is it "made up as you go"?

No, routing is too complex to be made up as you go; as each intersection increases the possibilities exponentially.  It takes months before additions or changes make its way out to Directions.  So if you make an inappropriate change and it happens to get indexed soon afterward, it could be some time before a correction can make it's way out to Directions.  That's a big part of why high priority roads have been vetted and they would likely them largely untouched; because messing with them can have long term consequences; with users being poorly or misrouted for months.

 

A-573 leads to a military base. A-440 & A-973 lead to downtown. Aren't those destinations considered "somewhere"?

Roads are used by travellers to reach multiple

So what you are saying is each of those roads is a side highway off of the freeway that take traffic to something local.  That's the definition of a regional highway.

Remember, National Highway, Expressway and Freeway are all roads with the same purpose, and it is largely just the build that distinguishes them.  They each are roads that span large distances and connect cities and towns.  Being built to the standards of an expressway or freeway is not enough alone to elevate a road's status, it has to meet the national highway criteria also.  So they are all national highways.

Regional highways, major arteries and even minor arteries might be built to different levels, but we do not have different priorities to distinguish them.  A major artery that is split into dual carriageways with ramps is still just a major artery.  Only national highways get elevated even higher when the build is improved.

Most major cities are going to have a limited number of national highways passing through them.  And most national highways will pass through, not stop, unless it is a coastal city or for some other reason the highway does not continue.  One thing to consider; over the years many major cities have had alternative routes built to a higher standard set up, so through the city itself there might be a split into alternative routes that later merge back together and now the main route through town will not necessarily follow the named or numbered highway.  This is why the GRs and RERs have been saying you need to zoom out and get the overall picture of what is going on.

In the case of Quebec, there is one national highway passing through the city east to west, and one passing north to south.

• East to west the highway begins as 138 and then splits to have two parallel routes of 138 and the freeway 40 (old and upgraded routes), which continue to parallel each other as they continue to the next city.
  
• North to south the 175 appears to have been the main route at one time, but since it passes through downtown alternative routes were built, and now the main route follows 175 then 40 then 573.
  

So, for example, the 573 is only freeway/expressway for the portion along which it is the main route through the area.  When the main route turns to follow 40, the remainder of 573 becomes a regional highway, as it is then a funnel route to bring traffic into the main route.

The 440 and 973 too are funnel roads from downtown to the major routes that pass through the area.  They thus qualify as at least regional highways.  But they are also part of the national highway system; you can travel along them to pass completely through town.  The thus get National Highway, but the don't get expressway/freeway because they are not the main routes through town and should not be considered by directions when someone is passing through town.

 

 

I'd agree with you too if it's just a short stretch past a highway interchange, but this is taking the concept too far.

NB 15 follows this concept perfectly, it is a road that funnels traffic to the main route through town.  The GRs have already told you this when you tried to change it the first time; they stated you needed to zoom out and observe that the main route in the area passes along the outskirts of Moncton.  That is thus the road that gets the highest priority.  This portion of NB15 doesn't go anywhere, it is a funnel from downtown into the freeway/expressway system. It is a more important funnel than alternatives such as the 128, 126, and 490; so it ranks a national highway priority to tell the system that it is preferred over those others; but it is still a funnel.

Another way to look at it is to imagine travelling south along the portion of NB 15 north of the Trans Canada.  When it reaches the Trans Canada, if it continued to be freeway/expressway, this would confuse Directions.  The downgrade to National Highway tells Directions "If the person is bypassing Moncton, have him turn onto the Trans Canada to stay on the major route."  If they are going downtown, the system would have them stay on the NB 15.  So this works perfectly and reflects reality; the NB 15 south of the Trans Canada is not as important a road as the Trans Canada.

And it does not have to be just for Directions either.  Imagine someone travelling through the area to a further destination driving down highway just observing the roads on his GPS (not using Directions).  If it is clearly marked that he needs to turn to stay on the freeway system, he will do so.  If it isn't, but instead shows that the freeway continues and another crosses it, then he will continue along NB 15 only to find out that the freeway stops.

It seems that in these cases you still are not doing what the GRs have advised you to do, and that is to zoom out and look at the overall picture.  The Freeways and Expressways are major routes covering large distances; branches off of them that are still part of the national highway system will sometimes need downgrading to make the main route obvious.

Now, do NOT go out with this information and start downgrading a bunch of roads with it.  I'm giving you the thought process on these particular roads.  Other things have to be considered on other roads, with overall routing being a major factor.  That is why Google has looked at it from the "big picture" point of view and is satisfied with the results; Maps is routing people as it should for major routes and thus high priority roads should not need much adjusting.

[Titus Lee]

 

Remember, National Highway, Expressway and Freeway are all roads with the same purpose, and it is largely just the build that distinguishes them.  They each are roads that span large distances and connect cities and towns.  Being built to the standards of an expressway or freeway is not enough alone to elevate a road's status, it has to meet the national highway criteria also.  So they are all national highways.

 

But where do these routes begin? Guidelines allow for Freeways and Expressways to terminate at highways - Regional and/or National.  Besides, there's nothing about Freeways necessarily being a cross-country route.  Usage criteria only states that it "provide non-surface travel to areas", (usually "between towns")

Another way to look at it is to imagine travelling south along the portion of NB 15 north of the Trans Canada.  When it reaches the Trans Canada, if it continued to be freeway/expressway, this would confuse Directions.  The downgrade to National Highway tells Directions "If the person is bypassing Moncton, have him turn onto the Trans Canada to stay on the major route."  If they are going downtown, the system would have them stay on the NB 15.  So this works perfectly and reflects reality; the NB 15 south of the Trans Canada is not as important a road as the Trans Canada.

Not all travellers are bypassing Moncton, neither should traffic patterns be overgeneralised.

It seems that in these cases you still are not doing what the GRs have advised you to do, and that is to zoom out and look at the overall picture.  The Freeways and Expressways are major routes covering large distances; branches off of them that are still part of the national highway system will sometimes need downgrading to make the main route obvious.

Isn't the main route already indicated by Trans-Canada Hwy shields?

In the case of Quebec, there is one national highway passing through the city east to west, and one passing north to south. 

 

There are at least three more crossing the city east to west. The latter of which is markedly superior.

• Boulevard Ste-Anne - Boulevard Wilfred-Hamel (Route 138) 
  
• Boulevard Laurier - Grande Allée (Route 175)
  
• Boulevard Charest - Autoroute Charest - Autoroute Dufferin-Montmorency (Aut. 440)

[Flash]

 

But where do these routes begin? Guidelines allow for Freeways and Expressways to terminate at highways - Regional and/or National.  Besides, there's nothing about Freeways necessarily being a cross-country route.

They generally begin at a port or some other logical place.  I'm unsure why you are asking and thus don't know what else to tell you.

 

Usage criteria only states that it "provide non-surface travel to areas", (usually "between towns")

They most certainly do not say just that.  You're once again focussing on one thing and ignoring everything else.  There are plenty of criteria.  But the big thing is, national highways (including expressways and freeways) are almost exclusively long routes that connect the cities along the routes.  So look at the big picture... the route that keeps going will normally be the highest priority, the spurs off it going to local places or other roads will be lower.

 

Not all travellers are bypassing Moncton, neither should traffic patterns be overgeneralised.

No one has done that.  The route into Moncton is the 2nd highest priority road in the area, as it should be.

 

Isn't the main route already indicated by Trans-Canada Hwy shields?

No, those have nothing to do with routing.  And the Trans-Canada Hwy is not always the highest priority route.

 

In the case of Quebec, there is one national highway passing through the city east to west, and one passing north to south. 

 

There are at least three more crossing the city east to west. The latter of which is markedly superior.

• Boulevard Ste-Anne - Boulevard Wilfred-Hamel (Route 138) 
  
• Boulevard Laurier - Grande Allée (Route 175)
  
• Boulevard Charest - Autoroute Charest - Autoroute Dufferin-Montmorency (Aut. 440)

And your point?  I was talking about routes through the city, not just in the city.  None of those pass through the city.  They exist in the city only.  I covered them when I stated "over the years many major cities have had alternative routes built to a higher standard set up, so through the city itself there might be a split into alternative routes that later merge back together".  They are just alternative routes within the city, but there is only the two routes that I mentioned.  Within the city those routes spit and then merge back together, and you only end up with one major route coming in and one major route leaving.  The main route that vehicles will take when following the route gets the highest appropriate priority, the others get lower so that the system and map users both know which route to take when continuing on through.  Again, zoom out and look at the big picture.

[Titus Lee]

But where do these routes begin? Guidelines allow for Freeways and Expressways to terminate at highways - Regional and/or National.  Besides, there's nothing about Freeways necessarily being a cross-country route.

They generally begin at a port or some other logical place.  

I'm unsure why you are asking and thus don't know what else to tell you.

 

Doesn't A-440 begin near the port of Quebec? Tell me these routes can also begin downtown at a major artery. How else would this qualify?

Not all travellers are bypassing Moncton, neither should traffic patterns be overgeneralised.

No one has done that.  The route into Moncton is the 2nd highest priority road in the area, as it should be.

 

Wheeler Blvd as Expressway would still remain second in priority to TC-2.

I covered them when I stated "over the years many major cities have had alternative routes built to a higher standard set up, so through the city itself there might be a split into alternative routes that later merge back together".  They are just alternative routes within the city, but there is only the two routes that I mentioned.  Within the city those routes spit and then merge back together, and you only end up with one major route coming in and one major route leaving.

There are only two major routes through Minneapolis/St. Paul, right?  Perhaps alternate routes should be downgraded to make the main route obvious. 

See what I mean?

[Flash]

Doesn't A-440 begin near the port of Quebec? Tell me these routes can also begin downtown at a major artery. How else would this qualify?

Once again you are looking at road names instead of routes.  Routes can have multiple road names long them and switch from one to another.  The national highway in this case sharts in Natashquan, QC and just happens to pass through Quebec City 1000km later.  You need to quit looking at short stretches within cities, and zoom out to see the big picture.  Various reviewers keep saying this over and over again, I'm not sure why you keep looking at these small stretches.  Small stretches are not national highways.

 

 

Wheeler Blvd as Expressway would still remain second in priority to TC-2.

But it's not an expressway.  The "express" in expressway refer to the fact that they are direct, fast routes.  This has a roundabout in it and loops around the downtown core.  It's hard to justify National Highway for it; but the fact that is it is a better route than the other regional highways in town.  You're trying to get it as close to TC-2 as possible, when fact is that this is not a road that connects cities; but rather is a collector road that loops around collecting from low priority roads..  Zoom out and look at the purpose and function of the road, not the build.

 

I covered them when I stated "over the years many major cities have had alternative routes built to a higher standard set up, so through the city itself there might be a split into alternative routes that later merge back together".  They are just alternative routes within the city, but there is only the two routes that I mentioned.  Within the city those routes spit and then merge back together, and you only end up with one major route coming in and one major route leaving.

There are only two major routes through Minneapolis/St. Paul, right?  Perhaps alternate routes should be downgraded to make the main route obvious. 

Actually, no, there are quite a few major routes through that urban area.  It doesn't have geography issues preventing approaches from all sorts of angles.  This is one of the reasons why you shouldn't be fooling with high priority roads unless you are highly aware of the entire picture.

Minneapolis/St. Paul also has 7 times the population of Quebec and 48 times the population of Moncton.  Expect more major routes through it and more major routes within it as it is, well, more major.

 

See what I mean?

I see a city that is multiple times bigger again, and thus is likely to have more higher priority roads.  I see a route the is completely straight, making it a very good route to pass through the city. And it does pass right through; the routing continues as national highway on both ends; making this part of several different possible routes completely through the city and beyond.  I see a route that is actually built to expressway standards, but has been limited to national highway designation so as to not specify that it is a more primary route than others; meaning the big picture has been looked at.  What I see is so much more going for this road; thus proving that giving Wheeler Blvd the same national highway designation as this road is marginal at best.  This just proves that Wheeler likely only gets national highway to elevate it above the other highways, because it does not have all that much going to for it otherwise other than the build.

This is what is meant by looking at the big picture.

[Andrew Sawyer]

What does the highlighted blue on your image represent? I don't get the context.

---

From: Titus Lee via General Map Maker <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQcZ...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Titus Lee <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 15:45:22 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Titus Lee <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: High priority changes

Here's the "big picture".

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[Titus Lee]

Premature post. The blue lines represent high priority roads.

On Monday, March 25, 2013 5:50:26 PM UTC-5, Andrew Sawyer wrote:

What does the highlighted blue on your image represent? I don't get the context.

---

From: Titus Lee via General Map Maker <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQcZKOEN8b_-cHJHtzXhd2B1igKPTcAaN_3c@googlegroups.com>

[Titus Lee]

Now how's this?

Blue: primary routes

Light blue: alternate city routes

Lime green: alternate through route

[Flash]

Now you are starting to understand.  Before you were confused that some of those alternative routes had been downgraded.  But the purpose is to tell routing what the primary route through town is, so it knows which way to send someone that is passing completely through town.

[Titus Lee]

So... shall I go ahead with these changes?

http://goo.gl/JppNH

http://goo.gl/mQu8F

http://goo.gl/4idHL

http://goo.gl/3USg1

http://goo.gl/iLuIm

http://goo.gl/vw2wW

http://goo.gl/aeKvU

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 6:11 PM, Flash via General Map Maker <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQcd...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Now you are starting to understand.  Before you were confused that some of those alternative routes had been downgraded.  But the purpose is to tell routing what the primary route through town is, so it knows which way to send someone that is passing completely through town.

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[Flash]

Go ahead with what changes?  You've presented zoomed out map views of roads.  And quite a few of these roads are in Quebec City, where we've been discussing your lack of understanding of the reasons for road priorities?  Where did we jump from trying to help you understand to it needed changes?

In any case, if you think you've found a road that needs changing; as we've discussed you need to present the exact road you think needs changing.  Tell us from where to where you think the priority needs changing, to what you think it should be changed, and then present an argument for the change that considers every aspect of the priority.  Also consider that Google has already vetted the road and looked at the overall picture, and so present an argument that considers the overall pictures and why the road does not fit into it.  Explain also your local knowledge with all the roads in the area.

Do not do things like this: https://www.google.com/mapmaker?gw=39&fid=0x89d3125d7366c56d:0x242ac05bdbc641e3  You've been told over and over again that you need to quit focussing on one aspect.  This one you focussed on zero aspects!!!  You are modifying based on a single aspect of a different road; stating that this road needs to change because freeways (the other road) normally end at national highway.  Where in the guidelines does it suggest that you should change a road's priority to accommodate another road?

Even more confusing, why are you also proposing in another edit that the other road's freeway status get downgraded?  How does that work, if this road should supposed be upgraded because the freeway terminates at it?

[Titus Lee]

Félix Leclerc Autoroute (Aut. 40) from Aut. 73 to Rte. 138: 

Change priority to Freeway

Reasons: Entire route is built as such. This is the main route across/around the city. Continues as a National Highway.

Charest Boulevard (Aut. 440) from Frank Carrel St. to Courone St. (Rte. 175): 

Change priority to National Highway

Reasons: Has many intersections and lower speed limit. (Original Expressway plans were cancelled.)

*Undoing another MM's recent change from National Highway to Expressway. 

EITHER:

Oak & Elm Streets (Buffalo, NY) from Kensington Expwy to I-190 ramps.

Change priority to National Highway

Reasons: This is the continuation of a major route 

OR:

Kensington Expressway (NY-33) from Scajaquada Expwy to Oak/Elm St terminus

Change priority to National Highway

Reasons: "To make main route (NY-198) more visible"

--

[Flash]

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:59:43 AM UTC-7, Titus Lee wrote:

Félix Leclerc Autoroute (Aut. 40) from Aut. 73 to Rte. 138: 

Change priority to Freeway

Reasons: Entire route is built as such. This is the main route across/around the city. Continues as a National Highway.

Do you mean from 46.754211,-71.423492 to 46.789247,-71.313715?  Not changes are necessary, it is already at Freeway.

 

Charest Boulevard (Aut. 440) from Frank Carrel St. to Courone St. (Rte. 175): 

Change priority to National Highway

Reasons: Has many intersections and lower speed limit. (Original Expressway plans were cancelled.) 

*Undoing another MM's recent change from National Highway to Expressway. 

It has already been set there by a Googler.  When changes happen, they get re-vetted.  If you make a change, it is going to get re-vetted a week or two later.  There is no need to jump right in after someone else makes an edit to "correct" it; the vetting process will examine it and will set it where Google wants it to be; whether a GR or yourself was the last editor.

 

EITHER:

Oak & Elm Streets (Buffalo, NY) from Kensington Expwy to I-190 ramps.

Change priority to National Highway

Reasons: This is the continuation of a major route 

Is it a continuation?  I see two major routes that pass completely through the downtown core.  Then separately there is the Kensington Expressway which can be stated to start downtown (which also happens to be a port).  Your proposed change would not be continuing the route, but rather would be tying it into existing routes.

The other two keep their status as they go through downtown because they continue onward; so the consistency rule applies (I'm looking at the national highway being maintained down S. Elmwood Ave despite this being a non-nondescript street).  But the route that follows the Kensington Expressway does not continue to the south.  There is no need to continue the route through downtown as it does not continue out the other side.

 

OR:

Kensington Expressway (NY-33) from Scajaquada Expwy to Oak/Elm St terminus

Change priority to National Highway

Reasons: "To make main route (NY-198) more visible"

NY-198 forks off of this route.  The main route follows the Expressway the entire time.  The fork does not diminish this route in any way; it is going to a different place.

I'm unsure why you want to make any of these changes.  Is routing not working as expected?  What is your extensive experience travelling each of these routes?  You did not cover all the aspects of the priorities nor provide your personal experiences with the roads.  You did not present arguments as to why the current routing is wrong.  Considering Google vetted these roads and that they almost certainly have many more resources than yourself in regards to these roads, I see no reason to change them.

 

[Titus Lee]

Félix Leclerc Autoroute (Aut. 40) from Aut. 73 to Rte. 138: 

Change priority to Freeway

Reasons: Entire route is built as such. This is the main route across/around the city. Continues as a National Highway.

Do you mean from 46.754211,-71.423492 to 46.789247,-71.313715?  Not changes are necessary, it is already at Freeway.

 

No. Eastward to 46.884681, -71.144232. 

Charest Boulevard (Aut. 440) from Frank Carrel St. to Courone St. (Rte. 175): 

Change priority to National Highway

Reasons: Has many intersections and lower speed limit. (Original Expressway plans were cancelled.) 

*Undoing another MM's recent change from National Highway to Expressway. 

It has already been set there by a Googler.  When changes happen, they get re-vetted.  If you make a change, it is going to get re-vetted a week or two later.  There is no need to jump right in after someone else makes an edit to "correct" it; the vetting process will examine it and will set it where Google wants it to be; whether a GR or yourself was the last editor.

OK. (It got approved in the first place?)

 

EITHER:

Oak & Elm Streets (Buffalo, NY) from Kensington Expwy to I-190 ramps.

Change priority to National Highway

Reasons: This is the continuation of a major route 

Is it a continuation?  I see two major routes that pass completely through the downtown core.  Then separately there is the Kensington Expressway which can be stated to start downtown (which also happens to be a port).  Your proposed change would not be continuing the route, but rather would be tying it into existing routes.

The other two keep their status as they go through downtown because they continue onward; so the consistency rule applies (I'm looking at the national highway being maintained down S. Elmwood Ave despite this being a non-nondescript street).  But the route that follows the Kensington Expressway does not continue to the south.  There is no need to continue the route through downtown as it does not continue out the other side.

 

OR:

Kensington Expressway (NY-33) from Scajaquada Expwy to Oak/Elm St terminus

Change priority to National Highway

Reasons: "To make main route (NY-198) more visible"

NY-198 forks off of this route.  The main route follows the Expressway the entire time.  The fork does not diminish this route in any way; it is going to a different place.

I'm unsure why you want to make any of these changes.  Is routing not working as expected?  What is your extensive experience travelling each of these routes?  You did not cover all the aspects of the priorities nor provide your personal experiences with the roads.  You did not present arguments as to why the current routing is wrong.  Considering Google vetted these roads and that they almost certainly have many more resources than yourself in regards to these roads, I see no reason to change them.

Just to know that downtown is an acceptable freeway terminus.

[Titus Lee]

Wait. Didn't you say downtown is a "local destination"? (No freeway endings)

[Flash]

Félix Leclerc Autoroute (Aut. 40) from Aut. 73 to Rte. 138: 

Change priority to Freeway

Reasons: Entire route is built as such. This is the main route across/around the city. Continues as a National Highway.

Do you mean from 46.754211,-71.423492 to 46.789247,-71.313715?  Not changes are necessary, it is already at Freeway.

 

No. Eastward to 46.884681, -71.144232. 

No, that would not be appropriate.  First, it's not a freeway the entire length; it follows regular road as it goes through the downtown core.  This is not a freeway or even expressway by any stretch of the imagination.  So you would have to go back and forth in priorities; which would not be consistent.  Secondly, it isn't the main route through town.  If one were passing through town west to east it is fairly obvious that the 40 is the more major route.

Just to know that downtown is an acceptable freeway terminus.

And

Wait. Didn't you say downtown is a "local destination"? (No freeway endings)

It was never said that a downtown core was not an acceptable freeway terminus.  But you've been searching for singular features you could use to edit other roads that had that same feature.  A route out of a downtown core is not automatically a freeway/expressway.  Neither is a route of out a downtown core automatically not a freeway/expressway.

In this case, this is no just a downtown, it is also a port.

But most important of all; the point the expressway starts is where the long route heading all the way to Rochester starts.  "Usually terminates at" and al the other things you've tried to focus singularly upon are not absolutes.  If the route starts at that point in the real world, then there's no getting around it.

But this is a different situation than your Quebec CIty example above where it does pass all the way through downtown.  Because it passes through and beyond, consistency needs to be considered in Quebec.  The route that follows Kensington Expressway, on the other hand, starts at that point and is consistently an expressway.  Also, as discussed, overall routing must be considered; and in Quebec you wouldn't want to route people passing through town through the downtown roads.

[Titus Lee]

No. Eastward to 46.884681, -71.144232. 

No, that would not be appropriate.  First, it's not a freeway the entire length; it follows regular road as it goes through the downtown core.  This is not a freeway or even expressway by any stretch of the imagination.  

 

Charest Boulevard E? Apparently it was set as Expressway by a Googler.  

Your reasoning explains my past edit.

So you would have to go back and forth in priorities; which would not be consistent.  

Secondly, it isn't the main route through town.  If one were passing through town west to east it is fairly obvious that the 40 is the more major route.

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 7:57:41 PM UTC-5, Titus Lee wrote:

Félix Leclerc Autoroute (Aut. 40) from Aut. 73 to Rte. 138: 

Precisely what I mean! 

It was never said that a downtown core was not an acceptable freeway terminus.  But you've been searching for singular features you could use to edit other roads that had that same feature.  A route out of a downtown core is not automatically a freeway/expressway.  Neither is a route of out a downtown core automatically not a freeway/expressway.

 

In this case, this is no just a downtown, it is also a port.

http://goo.gl/maps/GCvXy 

But most important of all; the point the expressway starts is where the long route heading all the way to Rochester starts.

Long route from where? I-90 is the main route.

Kensington Expressway is a regional link between downtown and the airport. (Last time in Buffalo I took I-190)

The point this expressway starts is were the long route heading to another province starts.

 "Usually terminates at" and al the other things you've tried to focus singularly upon are not absolutes.  If the route starts at that point in the real world, then there's no getting around it.

But this is a different situation than your Quebec CIty example above where it does pass all the way through downtown.  Because it passes through and beyond, consistency needs to be considered in Quebec.  The route that follows Kensington Expressway, on the other hand, starts at that point and is consistently an expressway.  Also, as discussed, overall routing must be considered; and in Quebec you wouldn't want to route people passing through town through the downtown roads.

 

Again, A-440 through downtown Q.C. is not the route I was talking about.

[Flash]

You need to move this to the new forum if you wish to continue.

Charest Boulevard E? Apparently it was set as Expressway by a Googler.  

Your reasoning explains my past edit.

Why are we discussing changing it if you making the changes anyway?

Be prepared that it will now be vetted in a week or two.  If they change it to something else, that is NOT spam.

 

So you would have to go back and forth in priorities; which would not be consistent.  

Secondly, it isn't the main route through town.  If one were passing through town west to east it is fairly obvious that the 40 is the more major route.

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 7:57:41 PM UTC-5, Titus Lee wrote:

Félix Leclerc Autoroute (Aut. 40) from Aut. 73 to Rte. 138: 

Precisely what I mean! 

Maybe you meant it, but you never said it.  You are being asked over and over again to explain things in full.  You didn't do so.  Given your history, it was natural to assume you wanted to put this up to freeway.

 

It was never said that a downtown core was not an acceptable freeway terminus.  But you've been searching for singular features you could use to edit other roads that had that same feature.  A route out of a downtown core is not automatically a freeway/expressway.  Neither is a route of out a downtown core automatically not a freeway/expressway.

 

In this case, this is no just a downtown, it is also a port.

http://goo.gl/maps/GCvXy 

No, it was a major port in the 1800's.  It was moved after that.  The ability to dock a boat and a few cruises a year to not make a port that requires a highway system.  Nor does a grain loading facility that brings in the cargo via rail car.  If you aren't deeply familiar with the area, you shouldn't be making edits.

 

But most important of all; the point the expressway starts is where the long route heading all the way to Rochester starts.

Long route from where? I-90 is the main route.

Kensington Expressway is a regional link between downtown and the airport. (Last time in Buffalo I took I-190)

The point this expressway starts is were the long route heading to another province starts.

I've told you why it doesn't.  If you have no counter arguments supported by the guidelines, then I guess you concede.

 

 "Usually terminates at" and al the other things you've tried to focus singularly upon are not absolutes.  If the route starts at that point in the real world, then there's no getting around it.

But this is a different situation than your Quebec CIty example above where it does pass all the way through downtown.  Because it passes through and beyond, consistency needs to be considered in Quebec.  The route that follows Kensington Expressway, on the other hand, starts at that point and is consistently an expressway.  Also, as discussed, overall routing must be considered; and in Quebec you wouldn't want to route people passing through town through the downtown roads.

 

Again, A-440 through downtown Q.C. is not the route I was talking about.

Actually, you started the post with A-440.  It's perfectly acceptable for me to bring it up again.

Now, if you're going to make edits without finishing the discussions, then expect reviewers to return to just plain denying them; and do not protest in the comments that they should have discussed it with you there.