Border between Nagorno-Karabakh Republic and Azerbaijan

[PlusNinety]

Hi

There're borders

• between recognized Cyprus and unrecognized Northern Cyprus( link ),
• between recognized Serbia and unrecognized Kosovo( link ),
• between recognized Israel and unrecognized Palestine( link ).
  

Therefore I want to ask, why there's no border between recognized Azerbaijan and unrecognized but de facto independent since 1991 Nagorno-Karabakh Republic?(link)
It consists of Shahumyan, Martakert, Askeran, Martuni,Hadrut and provinces between these and Armenia and Iran(Shushi, Kashatagh(includes azerbaijani Lachin, Qubadli and Zangilan provinces)).
I think if there're Northern Cyprus, Kosovo and Palestine, then Nagorno-Karabakh Republic should be on GM either.

Thanks&Regards
Vi Khan

[Mr-G]

There is no independent Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.

[PlusNinety]

There's - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno_Karabakh_Republic, and it's de facto independent just like Kosovo, N.Cyprus and Palestine, but de juro it's part of another country. But all the routes between Azerbaijan and Karabakh. You can reach Nagorno-Karabakh only via Armenia.

[I MAP]

This will take a lot of time to be fixed, if required !

[PlusNinety]

I could help with fixing that border, I know that region well. The northern border goes by tops of Mrav Ridge, the eastern by fields, there're both Azerbaijani and Karabakh front lines(there I think should be border from each side like in Cyprus ). The southern border is with Iran and western with Armenia.

[Serge]

Changing the country borders is forbidden for the users. And you also can not help with this, because "there I think should be border" is really not enough. The countries borders and territories can be changed by Google team only, on the basis of official documents. However, if you are able to provide such documentation, I think that the designation of the border of the Nagorno-Karabakh will be possible. But it is just my opinion.

[I MAP]

Until then, the only thing in your hands is posting in the forum which has already been done and the other is using submit feedback if it hasn't been used already

[Alex Alexander]

The Dead Zone in Cyprus is not correct at the eastern end by the town of Deryneia

as users cannot move political borders.

[PlusNinety]

Thank you Serge

Couldn't you tell me please what kind of official documents you mean?

[I MAP]

Government related documents

[Raffi]

I have brought this issue up before on here as it is a serious omission to not represent the existence of Karabakh google maps in any way.  It is there, you cannot access it from Azerbaijan, and if you are an interested map user it is only natural to look for the borders on google maps.  It's quite surprising that it is not there (like N. Cyprus, Kosovo, Palestine, Abkhazia etc.)

There is no question that Karabakh should be shown, but there are two potential borders that can be shown.  One is the cease-fire border, which I tried adding once and it was denied.  I drew the entire cease-fire line which is probably the most useful information to convey to users.  It was very easy to determine where the cease fire line is as you can draw a line in between the trenches on the eastern frontier, and along the mountaintops of the Mrav range in the north to Armenia.  This is the de-facto border, and the one visitors to the region need to be aware of.  The other border that can be shown is the official boundaries of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast of the Soviet Union.  The borders are quite well documented, if for some reason those boundaries are preferable.  I think personally both should be shown, but for goodness sakes, at least show one!

It's not difficult, it is important, and it would be consistent to include Karabakh's borders.  I just wish someone out there was listening...

[PlusNinety]

Thank you I MAP

I found the constitution text, attributes of statehood on the official website of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic of Foreign Affairs.
Found a map of NKR on the official website of the government(link), but it's small. I found it on a large scale (link) .
On the website of the office of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic in Washington DC I found this map.

Is it enough? And if you consider that yes, how do you think, where should I send this all?
Thanks.

[Mr-G]

This country (Nagorno-Karabakh) remains unrecognized by any UN member state, including Armenia. Only Transnistria (unrecognized country), South Ossetia (unrecognized country), and Abkhazia (unrecognized country), UN non-members, recognize the state. But this states are NOT recognized from any UN member state too, so i think the best way is to let this borders as they are now.

The only way (and best in my opinion) is to add this region in the Azerbaidjan country with the category state/province. Also you must add all the states/provinces from Azerbaidjan. Then it will be an state/province border between Azerbaidjan states/provinces like in Georgia, Rusia or any country.

Hope you will take my advise as good one.

[Mr-G]

This is a good map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Azerbaijan_economic_regions.png) with the Azerbaijan regions, so anyone who want to make a good thing can add this regions in Azerbaidjan country like state/provinces (added with the polygon tool) with all the detailes (population, postal code and some official information).

Keep mapping and i wait for your opinion about my proposal.

[Mr-G]

See this map too, with official information:http://www.azembassy.us/images/stories/map.pdf

[PlusNinety]

Hi Mr-G
These are economic regions and if I'm not mistaken they have no any political power, they are not provinces/states.
Azerbaijan is devided into 74 provinces - 66 districts and 12 cities(in Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic 7 districts and 1 city). (link)
All the provinces have already been mapped  on GMM. Even in Nagorno-Karabakh there're both Azerbaijani and Armenian names of provinces(Kelbajar / Shahumyan, Shusha/Shushi, Askeran/Khojali, etc.)

I think to add Nagorno-Karabakh as a province and change categories of its 10 regions form province/state to district/county. I guess it's a good solution.
Or we can add these economic regions as a states, change all existing provinces to districts, but Kelbajar-Lachin and Yukhari Karabakh will be united into Nagorno-Karabakh.
What do you think about it?
Thanks&Regards
Vi Khan

[Raffi]

Hi Mr. G.  -  As I said, I think that Karabakh should be treated exactly the same as N. Cyprus, Kosovo and Palestine.  It is de-facto independent and all we are saying here is that a dashed grey line should be used to show where it is.  We are not saying it should be drawn as a completely independent country - though it actually does function as one.

[Mr-G]

Best will be to add these economic regions as states/provinces and change all existing states/provinces to districts and do not unite Kelbajar-Lachin and Yukhari-Karabakh in Nagorno-Karabakh, but make another shape including the next states/provinces (listed below) as Administrative Area. I think this will be best, because Nagorno-Karabakh region do not include Kelbajar-Lachin:

- Nagorno-Karabakh area

- Shusha region

- Lachin region

- Kelbajar region

- Aghdam region

- Fuzuli region

- Jabrayil region

- Gubatly region

- Zanghilan region

See here this map for guidence and do your best.

Tell me if this is the best solution or you have another opinion and if you decide to make this changes put the links to the review sub-forum for faster aprove.

[Mr-G]

The Nagorno-Karabakh region don't have the same status as Northern Cyprus, Kosovo, Palestine or other countrie because was not regognized by any country - not even Armenia who is most interested in this problem (like the listed countries - recognized by many UN countries). So, i think my above proposal is the best in this case and we must not have partizan opinion in this political delicate case.

Thanks.

[PlusNinety]

Nagorno-Karabakh include the whole Lachin-Kelbajar and Yukhari Karabakh(link). On that map are shown Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast that existed before 1991 and surrounding regions that now are part of Karabakh.

[PlusNinety]

Northern Cyprus is recognized only by Turkey, Karabakh by partly recognized S.Ossetia and Abkhazia and by not recognized Transnistria.

[Mr-G]

Someone from Google thinked to this problem before us and solved it like i propose now. See here the link:

http://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=40.300476,46.411743&spn=2.136576,3.482666&z=8&iwloc=0_0&gw=39&fid=0x12345:0x3a3c94eaeef638f3&lyt=large_map&htll=39.898866,46.588972&hyaw=222.1265699770203

We must wait an opinion from Google staff. Anyway this administrativ area is locked to editting (and i think i know why).

Keep mapping!

[Mr-G]

See here that not all the territory is controled by Nagorno-Karabakh Republic:

Former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast
District (Rayon)	Area (km2)	Under NKR control (km2)	%
Askeran	928	928	100
Hadrut	679	679	100
Mardakert	1,705	1,305	76.5
Martuni	792	632	79.8
Shusha	280	280	100
NKAO	4,384	3,824	87.2
Rayons of Azerbaijan SSR other than in NKAO
Shahumyan	558	0	0
Kelbajar	1,936	1,936	100
Lachin	1,835	1,835	100
Kubatli	802	802	100
Jebrayil	1,050	1,050	100
Zangelan	707	707	100
Aghdam	1,150	842	73.2
Fizuli	1,390	462	33.2
Azerbaijan	8,870	7,634	86.1

[I MAP]

You can send your suggestions at mapping and then google.com

And I also believe that your concern will be answered by someone from Google

[Farko]

Well, I guess Nagorno- Karabakh is indisputable area of Azerbaijan and no need to separate it with dashed lines. But if NK area is gong to be marked in dashed lines, then it should definitely carry out a label: "Under Occupation of Armenian Forces" or "belongs to Azerbaijan and invaded by Armenia"... 

[Yuska]

Google is a reputable source and should rely on reputable and recognized international sources. Some representative office of separatist regime of Nagorno-Karabakh, and registered in Washington as FARA agent, and representing himself as "diplomat" certainly can't re-draw borders by posting an artificial map of the occupied territories of Azerbaijan as presenting it as some NKR. Reputable sources such as UN, all governments around the world, most notably, US, UK, France, and so forth, various government agencies in several countries picture the Azerbaijani territorial integrity intact. If Armenians occupied these territories by force, that doesn't mean, 2-3 Armenian users here will find a sneaky way to redraw international borders as accepted by the international community. By the same token, Azerbaijan could storm and occupy a territory of Armenia tomorrow. Should it them release its google users to come and lobby for change of international borders here in Google Maps? It's insane.

[Serge]

@Yuska: Is it too loud declaration are you doing now? Please don't start to divide users by Armenians and Azerbaijanis. Keep in mind that this is an international project, be polite.

[Yuska]

Serge, the reason why I came that loud is because apart from proposing irredentist redrawing of international borders, this particular user ViKhan has been marking me as abuser within the last 2 days while I requested changing back names of towns in Nagorno-Karabakh to their proper internationally recognized names and did provide impartial sources to support the requests. How is this behaviour on part of VikHan not a division to Azerbaijanis and Armenians? Nationalist aspirations should be put aside and international laws and conventions should be held high. Otherwise, we would see new "republics" popping up on google maps every day since there quite a few minorities with nationalist agendas. I am just speaking of reality...

[Yana Werner]

Changing international borders by some irresponsible users (better to call them "abusers") is absolutely ridiculous. Those users must be permanently banned! International borders is not a joke for someone to register in google and start playing with them. There is no state called "nagorno-karabakh republic". This region is an internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan Republic. It is recgonized as such by UN, OSCE, Council of Europe, European Union (including its European Parliament and European Commission). There are numerous resolutions supporting territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, including its Nagorno-Karabakh region. Not only cannot be any border between Azerbaijan and an illegally occupied (by Armenia) territory of Azerbaijan, Nagorno Karabakh, there must not be any mentioning of this entity in Google Map in the first place.
The internationally recognized border of Azerbaijan must be frozen in Google Map permanently, unless a change is approved by the United Nations. Without that, Google Map must not let the users vandalize the map and compromise Google's credibility and reputation.

Yana

[Yana Werner]

Dear Serge. It is not about dividing users between Armenians and Azeris. It is about dividing them between responsible and irresponsible users. Just think rationally: can, for example, Mexican users redraw the borders in Google Map and add Texas to Mexico? It will be ridiculous, don't you agree?
There is no state called "nagorno karabakh republic". Then how on Earth can it have its borders?
Google Map is a wonderful resource, and why people love it is because it is precise as math, chemistry, physics, geography. If some "FARA-registered" users attempt to politicize this great resource, they undermine first of all its reputation. I think they should be simply banned!

[gr8vision]

Regrettably, many towns, villages and regions of the Republic of Azerbaijan have also been changed by a slew of Google Maps users, who not just introduce wrong and erroneous information into the map, but are marking all legitimate corrections as “spam” and “abuse”. They do it “more than twice, in a malicious manner … with a view to post inaccurate information or in a manner that results in spam” (from Google Mapmaker Moderation Guidelines for Users: http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/guidelines.html)

For the Republic of Azerbaijan, there is only one official language, and that's Azerbaijani. Additionally, English is recognized as the international language for touristic and business purposes. Plus, Google is an American company, so naturally, English is the accepted language. That's all, just these two languages. Thus, all Azerbaijani cities, towns, villages and regions, including all of Nagorno-Karabakh and around it, and their OFFICIAL, INTERNATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED and thus the only correct names, can be only in Azerbaijani and English. 

The only OFFICIAL and AUTHORITATIVE sources on the map names (city, town, village and region names) are those from the: 

1) U.S. Government, 
2) Government of Azerbaijan, and
3) the United Nations
and in some cases from authoritative international organizations that have an editorial process, like the International Organization for Standardization (ISO), from .gov, .int and .mil domains. Anything else is unofficial. Here are these official and authoritative sources:

1)      U.S. National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency: http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/namefiles.htm

Direct link to the database file on Azerbaijan: http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/cntyfile/aj.zip

It contains all Azerbaijanis cities, towns and major villages along with their GPS coordinates, as recognized by the U.S. Government.

 

2)      UN cartography - listing of all Azerbaijani cities and towns, under the appropriate regions:

http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/maplib/ungegn/session-20/working-papers/working-paper-82.pdf

 

3)      Map of Azerbaijan by the UN: http://www.un.int/azerbaijan/img/map_hi_res.jpg
Another map by UN: http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/azerbaij.pdf

 

4)      An additional UN map that shows borders of nations, which is important to notice the three (3) Azerbaijani exclaves that are inside Armenia: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/geonames/

 

5)      U.S. State Department map of Azerbaijan: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2909.htm

 

6)      The UN and the only internationally-accepted standard to spell place names in Azerbaijan is ISO_3166-2:AZ - here's more on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:AZ

 

7)      Independent source listing Azerbaijani spellings of town names: http://www.geopostcodes.com/index.php?pg=browse&grp=1&sort=1&niv=3&id=476&l=0

 

Other references, from blogs, commercial and personal websites, .com, .net, .org, .ru, etc., domains (e.g., some unofficial personal and commercial websites and blogs like nkrusa.org, nkr.am, karabakh.net, arev.ru, or user created articles in Wikipedia) cannot be accepted. They are worthless and represent unofficial, personal position of a small group of people, a fringe theory. Only government and otherwise very authoritative sources can be consulted and used for serious maps.

 

Likewise, there can be no so-called "Nagorno Karabakh Republic (NKR)" on the territory of Azerbaijan as such a nation-state does not exist. Please see the roaster of UN members: http://www.un.org/en/members/index.shtml

Just in case, let's also check ISO, to see if there is any internationally-recognized standard that recognizes ISO: http://www.iso.org/iso/country_codes/iso_3166_code_lists/country_names_and_code_elements.htm

Do you see any so-called "NKR" there? No. But we do see Azerbaijan, Armenia, Russia, Iran, Turkey, Georgia, United States.

And see that no one, not even Armenia, recognize any "NKR": http://www.epress.am/en/2011/01/27/why-armenia-cannot-recognize-abkhazia-south-ossetia-independence.html   Needless to say that a "country" without any recognition is not a country after all - it is, in the words of U.S. State Department's Assistance Secretary of State Elizabeth Jones, who said this about NK in 2005, "criminal secessionists who rule there to be removed. It is not appropriate for this kind of instability and criminality to exist right in the middle of Europe."

Thus, links to some self-created Wikipedia articles or some blogs about some "NKR" are not proof of anything and are without any merit. 

No one recognizes the so-called "NKR" - neither Armenia, nor Azerbaijan, nor U.S. Here are relevant quotes from the U.S. State Department and the European Union:

1) “The United States does not recognize Nagorno-Karabakh as an independent country, and its leadership is not recognized internationally or by the United States. The United States supports the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan…” Source: “The United States and the Conflict Over Nagorno-Karabakh”, Fact Sheet, Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs, Washington, DC, February 7, 2005, http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/fs/41401.htm

2) “The first point to make is obviously that we don't recognize Nagorno-Karabakh as an independent country. The future status of Nagorno-Karabakh is a matter of negotiations in the Minsk process. Our position is to support the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, and we don't believe that these elections will have an impact on the peace process or the Minsk process”. Source: State Department Briefing: Azerbaijan. Briefer: Adam Ereli, Deputy Spokesman, U.S. Department of State, Daily Press Briefing, Monday, August 9, 2004, 1:05 p.m. EDT

3) “The independence of Nagorno-Karabakh hasn't been recognized by the United States or any other nations. The so-called parliamentary elections held in Nagorno-Karabakh shouldn't prejudge the final legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh in terms of talks on the settlement to the conflict”. Source: Robert Hilton, spokesman of the Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs of the U.S. Department of State, 28.05.2010, http://pda.today.az/news/politics/68849.html

4) “The OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chairs took note that the authorities of Nagorno-Karabakh held a referendum on December 10 on a draft 'Constitution' of the so-called 'Nagorno-Karabakh Republic,' which no member of the international community - including the Co-Chair countries - recognizes as an independent state. The Co-Chairs do not believe that such a 'referendum' will contribute to a negotiated settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. Any future legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh should be determined without the threat or use of force and only as the result of political negotiations between all parties in the framework of the Minsk process. Conducting such a referendum now, thus pre-empting the final legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh, rather than forging a compromise is particularly unhelpful at a moment when the OSCE Minsk Group-mediated negotiations between Armenia and Azerbaijan appear to be on a constructive path. The Co-Chairs expect that the results of this referendum, which are not internationally recognized, will have no negative effect on continuing prospects for an agreement between the sides on basic principles for the settlement of the conflict.” Source: Statement by the OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chairs on the 10 December Referendum in Nagorno-Karabakh, OSCE Press Release, Moscow/Paris/Washington, December 11, 2006 http://www.un-az.org/undp/bulnews45/stateosce1.php

5) “The 43-nation Council of Europe today called on the Nagorno-Karabakh de facto authorities to refrain from staging the one-sided "local self-government elections" in the province, planned for 5 September. "These so-called 'elections' cannot be legitimate," stressed Council of Europe Committee of Ministers' Chairman and Liechtenstein Foreign Minister Ernst Walch, Parliamentary Assembly President Lord Russell-Johnston and Secretary General Walter Schwimmer. They recalled that following the 1991-1994 armed conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, a substantial part of the region's population was forced to flee their homes and are still living as displaced persons in those countries or as refugees abroad.” Source: Council of Europe urges Nagorno-Karabakh to refrain from ''elections'', CoE, Strasbourg, 24/08/2001, http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Press/StopPressView.asp?ID=1247

6) “In the meantime, ethnic Armenians had established a “government” in the Nagorno-Karabkah region with its “capital” in Stepanakert (or Khankendi in Azerbaijani). This “government” is not recognised by any of the Council of Europe member states, nor by the OSCE, European Union and the United Nations. Armenia maintains close political, economic and military relations with them, but does not recognise the area as an independent state and hence has not established diplomatic relations with this “government”.” Source: Parliamentary Assembly of Council of Europe (PACE), "The conflict over the Nagorno-Karabakh region dealt with by the OSCE Minsk Conference", Rapporteur: Mr David Atkinson (UK), Report by Political Affairs Committee, Doc. 10364, paragraph 13, 29 November 2004, http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc04/EDOC10364.htm

So please, dear editors, please refrain from making any malicious and incorrect edits that are not based on official and authoritative sources.

[Saikrishna Arcot]

For the record, the names of the feature can be in any language, even if it not the official or a recognized language in the country. There are some features in the US that, for example, have English and Japanese names, even though Japanese isn't an official language of the United States.

[Farko]

Dear Serge, yes indeed this project is international, but Google Maps Service intends to be as local as possible since it is indicated in Terms of Service: "The Service is intended to reflect the local knowledge of users,". Then no wonder why any conflict or dispute becomes local. The service works perfectly when users don't have conflicting knowledge about the local names or they do not aim to abuse the service and change a name just because they feel like. So for example right now dozens of towns and cities in South-Western part of Azerbaijan (internationally recognized territories) are renamed from their official names to some names that preferred by some (or just one) users. So right now an Azeri guy who lived in for example, Zangelan (Zəngilan) signs in maps.google.com and sees his city's name has been renamed to Kovsakan, just because an Armenian guy or whoever felt like this is the best name. Then he may also have a right to deny every time that Azeri guy from Zangelan tries to correct the name. 

The policy says not to use third party documents that include official maps. But then it says that the Service prefers factual information rather than fictional or personal. Then how does the Service differentiate between factual and personal? Because I guess what Yuska and Yana Werner are saying is that their suggestion of factual name was rejected by another user who tries to keep his/her personal version. 

I think the only way to handle this is to check official names given by that country and approved by international organizations, such as United Nations. Otherwise, it's an endless game where the Service will be wasting resources and moderators' time.  

[Raffi]

Hi Farko, but your solution is also not helpful, because that would exclude local knowledge in this case completely.  Towns and Villages that are majority Armenian and have been for 100 or 500 years might end up with the Azeri names that the locals never have used, and that Azerbaijan tries to impose on them.  For example Karintak and Stepanakert.  Either the Azeri and Armenian names should show up together, or the name used by the actual city/village government should be used as the preferred name, with the other names being added as "official" or something like that.  If this were the official policy, that would make things much easier to moderate on mapmaker.

[Raffi]

Yana, this analogy is completely wrong.  Texas is a US State, and Mexico does not claim it, and it is not de facto independent.  Have you on the other hand tried visiting Karabakh?  It is a place, it does exist, and you need to get a Karabakh visa to go there, and if you try to cross the border between Karabakh and Azerbaijan, I'm not sure which side will shoot you first, but they will shoot and you will realize that Karabakh is an actual state with actual borders.

People love Google Maps because it shows them what they will find when they go to various places.  The omission of Karabakh is a serious one, and many people looking for it must be turning to other resources to find out what Google Maps is keeping from them.

N. Cyprus, Kosovo and Palestine are all indicated with grey dotted lines.  They are in similar situations as Karabakh.  Karabakh should be treated the same.

[Raffi]

Yuska, if you want to speak of reality, here it is.  The Azeri government is on a mission to wipe out the Armenians.  They drove them out of Baku, Sumgait, tried to drive them out of Karabakh, and even destroyed all of their historic tombstones and churches in Nakhichevan.  That is the reality.  They are, even after having lost control over Karabakh, trying to rename towns (like Stepanakert for god's sakes) and wipe out the Armenian names even on the maps.  It's disgraceful, and this policy of trying to eliminate the existence of Armenians is the reason why Karabakh can never again be a part of Azerbaijan.  Your behavior is the very proof that Azeris will not make good stewards of Karabakh...  

But that is all irrelevant in this conversation.  What is relevant is that Karabakh DOES exist, and Google Maps are here to reflect reality.  When someone wants to visit the village of Karintak, they look for Karintak, not "Dastakert". When they want to look for the road from Yerevan to Stepanakert, they look for Stepanakert on the map, not "Xankendi".  You know this, and I know this, so why would Google maps give preference to the names you try to impose on the local population that has already gained de facto independence, and has never used nor been interested in your names????

[Raffi]

Do all of you who are crying for only internationally recognized border to be shown in Azerbaijan feel the same way about Northern Cyprus, Kosovo and Palestine or is this merely a double standard you are trying to impose on Armenians and Christians?  

Do you not see the direct analogy here, and how hypocritical it is to show borders for those places and not for Karabakh?

[Raffi]

Serge - I should clarify that nobody here is talking about adding "country" borders.  Simply about adding a dashed grey line and a label for Karabakh within Azerbaijan, simply to show google maps users where it is, and what it's current, de facto borders are.  See how the division Greek and Turkish Cyprus is drawn to see what we're talking about.

[Farko]

Hi Raffi, local knowledge creates a lot of versions and I don't think the service should act as if it tries to resolve what version should be used and preferred over the officially known one. It's like people living around Minneapolis-Twin Cities call it just Cities, or those living in Indianapolis calls it just Indy. So should we just suggest Google to use these names for the sake of being local? 

About the history, it's totally wrong that Armenian's were in majority for 100-500 years, please check Russian census 1897. Azerbaijanis (or Tatars called by Russians to mislead their Turkic origins) were in majority in almost all towns and cities, both of Azerbaijan and Armenia. So, there are so many cities or villages of Armenia should be renamed to Azerbaijani ones, if you speak about local/historical preference. 

Another problem with going back history is that many cities in the region are renamed every several decades. For example, Gyumri used to be called Alexandropol, then Leninakan and now back to Gyumri. So should a local feel like calling it Leninakan, should s/he be granted with a permission? Or like Saint Petersburg of Russia could be renamed as Leningrad... 

When you say actual, probably you mean current names given by Armenian forces who occupied Nagorno Karabakh and surrounding areas of Azerbaijan. I believe this issue has not been resolved yet and de-jure Nagorno-Karabakh is recognized as a part of Azerbaijan. De-facto I can call Yerevan as Irəvan because I like to do so, but I don't jump to edit google maps, just because of my "de-facto"es (although Yerevan has always been Irəvan before Armenia renamed it), Even though I know some Armenians try to abuse good intentions of this editing service. 

[Yuska]

How did I know you were going to use a "Christian" card like a part of Armenian propaganda? 

No, I am personally for neither Kosovo, Northern Cyprus or any unrecognized state, although those you listed are at least recognized by a few nation states. Nagorno-Karabakh is not recognized by any state, not even Armenia. International borders are drawn by international community and with their consent, through legal processes, not through occupation and ethnic cleansing of 800,000 Azerbaijanis and 3 Armenians users in Google Maps. Where is the logic?

[Raffi]

Locals calling Indianapolis "Indy" is not the same as there being a city or village wholly populated by Armenians, who have an Armenian name for it, and a local government that calls it by the Armenian name, and a De Facto Independent state that calls it by the Armenian name.  These are so different as to not be worth comparing.  What I am describing - most people would say is an instance where the name should clearly come up in Armenian.  

Also, in regards to "Indy", "Irevan" "Leninakan" and "Leningrad", certainly these should be included on Google maps.  That's the beauty of the "add a name" feature.  You can add these as obscure or something so that people searching for them can find them.  So there is no problem there.

[Raffi]

The point is that Kosovo, N. Cyprus and Palestine are not wholly recognized states.  The fact that N. Cyprus is only recognized by Turkey is political, just like the fact that Armenia decided not to recognize Karabakh yet is simply politics, and the fact that no country wants to recognize Abkhazia yet is simply politics.

Karabakh, like these places, is a state that exists, is de facto independent, and ought to be represented on the maps with a similar grey dotted line, so that people using the maps will know where the heck it is!

[gr8vision]

Sure, but the name will still be the official name, just written in different language. But not something completely different. For example, region and city of Lachin cannot become Berdzor, and region and city of Kalbajar cannot become Karvachar, etc. Yet that's exactly what the vandals are doing. 

Meanwhile, there are 5,000 languages in the world - are you suggesting that we translated all cities into all those languages? OK, fine, it was a joke - how about we "limit" translation into French, German, Spanish, Russian, Persian, and Arabic? All of those great nations had something to do with the region, after all, sometimes in history. And there are even some ethnic populations of them - like Russians and Germans, Persians and Arabs, still living in Azerbaijan. So what, should we have the city names in all those languages? Of course not, it's enough to have them in just two, Azerbaijani and English. 

In all cases, names have to abide by a legal and standartized definition and criteria. There are only a few options: 1) United Nations (UN), 2) ISO standard, and 3) U.S. Government's GIS/GPS data. My approach, shared by many here, abides by all three of these. 

[gr8vision]

this is a very hateful and slanderous message! Please refrain from such racist and hateful messages against the good people of Azerbaijan! No one drove Armenians out of anywhere -- there are still tens of thousands of Armenians living in Baku, Sumgait, Ganja, etc., according to annual reports from the U.S. State Department. 

Meanwhile, in Armenia, all Azerbaijanis were driven out, and nearly all cultural and architectural heritage destroyed. Don't take my word for it - see for yourself: according to media and official Armenian government sources, there is only one functioning mosque, Blue Mosque (Goy Mescit), remaining in entire Armenia today, which is in Yerevan (it was reclassified by Armenians as Persian, despite being built in 1766 by the Azerbaijani Turkic khan of the Yerevan Khanate), and one semi-destroyed non-functioning one, also in Yerevan, built in 19th century. Both of these mosques are on the "protection" list of the Armenian Ministry of Culture. All other mosques have been destroyed -- the last one was literally bulldozered in 1990 (see below for references). Here's the link to the official Armenian government website that claims the Blue Mosque is "Persian": www.gov.am/u_files/file/kron/G1043746.pdf

List of mosques in the city of Yerevan that existed there in the first thirty years of the 19th century from an Armenian book: Bournoutian, George A. (1992). The Khanate of Erevan under Qajar Rule, 1795 - 1828. Costa Mesa, CA: Mazda Press, p. 205:
1) ‘Abbas Mirza (in the fortress) Mohammad Khan (in the fortress), 
2) Zali Khan,
3) Nouruz ‘Ali Beg,
4) Sartip Khan,
5) Hosein ‘Ali Khan (Gok-Jami),
6) Hajji Imam Vardi,
7) Hajji Ja’far Beg (Hajji Nasrollah Beg).

Meanwhile, according to the official Russian Imperial archival source, Caucasus Calendar (Kavkazskiy Kalendar, Кавказский календарь) published in 1870 in Tbilisi (Тифлис) and covering the year 1869, page 392, there were this many Shia Muslim mosques (doesn't include Sunni mosques): Erivan Guberniya (nearly entirely in today's Armenia): 269, Tiflis Gubernia (mostly today's Georgia): 7 and Elizavetpol Guberniya (Azerbaijan): 156. So there used to be at least over 200 Shia mosques in today's Armenia in the second half of the 19th century. Today, only 2 remain. What happened to the rest 200 or so is a rhetorical question.

"In Yerevan one night, a friend took me to see a pile of rubble behind an apartment building at 22 Ulitsa Khunyantsaya. It had been, he whispered, a small, simple Azerbaijani mosque back in the days when Azerbaijanis still lived in Armenia. Then, during the cycle of pogroms and izgnaniya, the Armenians of the neighborhood had descended on the mosque and torn it apart with pics and crowbars, and a bulldozer had come to level the pile. Once in a while, after listening to an Armenian passionately list the uncivilized and genocidal acts of the Azerbaijanis against his people, I would mention the destruction of this mosque. Almost invariably, the response was an indignant denial that such a thing could have occurred. Even Rafael Papayan, the chairman of the new Supreme Soviet's commission on human rights - a man who server several years as a political prisoner in the pre-glasnost days - insisted that such a tale could not be true. "Absolute disinformation," he told me. "The only mosque that was in the city is still preserved, and I can show you where it is." He was not lying; he simply did not know what had happened. It was not the sort of thing the Armenian press would report. It was not the sort of thing the people of Yerevan would talk among themselves. To do so would threaten their self-image as civilized victims." Source: Robert Cullen, “ROOTS,” The New Yorker, April 15, 1991.

And here's how Armenia and Armenians look after what they describe as their heritage:

“Stone fragments with Armenian letters inscribed on them were scattered on the ground. Two huge heaps of headstones not far from each other. ... It was in Yerevan, the capital of the Republic of Armenia, in April 2006. This construction site was on Aygegortsneri Street, on the road between the Nork and Nor Nork districts. "I wonder who the owner of this is," my son said. I had taken him along with me to show him how we Armenians treat our national treasures. "What difference does it make who the owner is?" I said. The headstones had been brought here from somewhere else. Apparently they had been in someone's way, and he or she "liberated" the territory and decided to use them as building materials. No one had tried to prevent the dislocation, the carnage of headstones. There was a dead dog lying right between the piles of headstones, next to the symbols of eternity, and, a few steps away, a broken piece of a cross. We Armenians are now building one more restaurant or hotel using our ancestors' headstones. ... But who will protest, who will fight against us, here at home? Perhaps we should appeal to various international organizations and ask them to come and protect our treasures from ourselves? Do you think that after seeing these pictures the minister of culture or the prosecutor general or some other official will take this matter up? Of course not-they have more important things to do. One is planning an upcoming pan-Armenian cultural event, another is planting trees, a third is building a hotel, or putting up an "elite" apartment building in the center of Yerevan, or staging a show about fighting against corruption in the National Assembly.” Source: Edik Baghdasaryan. “We Need to Defend Ourselves from Ourselves”, HETQ.am, April 10, 2006, http://archive.hetq.am/eng/society/0604-tapan.html

“The accompanying photo showing polished facing tiles being affixed to the outer walls of the 13th century Gandzasar Monastery in Artsakh has created a growing furor in Armenia. The "brain" behind the move belongs to wealthy Russian-Armenian businessman and benefactor Levon Hayrapetyan who hails from Karabakh. We dare say that concerned Armenians overseas have been shocked as well at this nonsensical defacement of our cultural and historical monuments.” Source: Gandzasar Fiasco: Who is Responsible for Monastery Defacement?, HETQ, 11:01, July 7, 2011, http://hetq.am/eng/news/2718/

“Armenian historians accuse their government of letting the country’s rich architectural heritage go to ruin, and warn that thousands of important monuments are on the verge of collapse. “If we don’t get involved now, as swiftly as possible, it’s going to take a huge amount of money to restore these monuments in future,” Samvel Karapatyan, a historian and heritage campaigner, said. According to Karapetyan’s Research on Armenian Architecture group, half of the country’s 24,000 registered historical buildings require urgent repair, and most of the rest need work to reinforce them. Even the Echmiadzin cathedral complex, the spiritual centre of the ancient Armenian Christian church, is in trouble with water seeping into its foundations. ... The government earmarked 213 million drams, around 590,000 US dollars, to restore 12 buildings last year, but the national auditing agency has since pointed to inefficiencies and other problems with the work. Karapatyan says official restoration projects have been dogged with problems. “In the last 15 or 20 years, there has not been a single project completed without defects,” he said. ... Apart from underfunding, Karapatyan said vandalism and plain neglect were major problems. Many old buildings are unprotected against opportunists looking for ancient objects to steal. Asoghik Karapetyan, the priest in charge of the archives at Echmiadzin, said disused churches were particularly vulnerable to treasure hunters, and there was little the authorities could do. “Sadly this trend exists, although it is not widespread. It isn’t just the church that must combat it – all believers must set themselves the task of changing the way people think,” he said. “Other people visit monuments and churches and write things on the walls. This needs to end; the reason lies in human ignorance and indifference to cultural treasures.” ... Last year, donations helped pay to put a cover over the collapsed dome at the Akhtala church, after water poured through and severely damaged 900 square metres of fresco work. But according to archaeologist Shavarsh Avetyan, it was too late to save much of the art, which was in the Byzantine style with inscriptions in Greek and Georgian as well as Armenian. Avetyan says the government in Yerevan spends too much time complaining about the lack of conservation of historic Armenian buildings in Turkey and Georgia, and too little money securing treasures that are under its own control. “The Soviet authorities used to destroy churches,” he said. “Now the churches fall down by themselves because of the failure to protect them,” he said.” Source: Galust Nanyan. ARMENIA’S CRUMBLING HERITAGE. Ancient churches at risk from poorly-funded restoration work, weather damage and vandals. IWPR, CRS Issue 579, 17 Feb 11, http://iwpr.net/report-news/armenia%E2%80%99s-crumbling-heritage

[Raffi]

Calling the addition of Armenian names "vandalism" is not acceptable.  Leaving out the Armenian name is not acceptable.

And there is absolutely no reason why the Iranian, Russian, Chinese, Kurdish and Swahili names should not be added.  They are supposed to be and in time they will be.

[gr8vision]

Raffi, state one reason why any non-Azerbaijani names should be added in Azerbajian? And also, why don't you spend as much energy on adding Azerbaijani, Russian, Georgian, Turkish, and Swahili names to all the cities and towns in Armenia? Because in time, it can be added, too. 

[Raffi]

I am not going to totally get into this side conversation with you.  If you want to delude yourself about the anti-Armenian pogroms of Sumgait and Baku that even drove out the Armenian world chess champion Gary Kasparov, you go ahead.  If you want to deny the Azeri president said if one Armenian was left in Karabakh by a certain date he would be hung in Baku, that's your call.  And if you want to compare the destruction of a cemetery of 16th century fine art khachkar tombstones worthy of UNESCO world heritage designation by the Azeri military with the use of some plain Armenian gravestones by a restaurateur, that is also your business.  There is only one truth, and your attitude and denial is the pervasive one in Azerbaijan which makes it impossible for Karabakh to ever be ruled by Azerbaijan again.

[Raffi]

lol

[gr8vision]

No, for a state to "exist" it has to be legitimate, i.e., recognized. Otherwise, it's like a madman who has his parallel reality that "exists". The whole point about having a real nation-state is to enjoy and take advantage of legitimacy, recognition, membership in UN, being part of ISO standards, have your own country phone code, banking code, your own country top-level domain name, etc. But Armenia-occupied Azerbaijani territories do not have that, as they remain to be Azerbaijan's. No one buys your line about the, as US Assistant Secretary of State Jones described them 'criminal secessionists', to be a "state", or to be "independent". Here's the view of U.S. Government:

“The actions taken by the government of Armenia in the context of the conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh are inconsistent with the territorial integrity and national sovereignty principles of the Helsinki Final Act. Armenia supports Nagorno-Karabakh separatists in Azerbaijan both militarily and financially. Nagorno-Karabakh forces, assisted by units of the Armenian armed forces, currently occupy the Nagorno-Karabakh region and surrounding areas in Azerbaijan. This violation and the restoration of peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan have been taken up by the OSCE.” Source: William J. Clinton, President of the United States of America, Presidential Determination (PD) PD No. 98-11 of January 26, 1998 and No. 99-8 of December 8, 1998, Memorandum for the Secretary of State, Re: "Assistance Program for the New Independent States of the Former Soviet Union").

“Armenia supports ethnic Armenian secessionists in Nagorno-Karabakh and since the early 1990s has militarily occupied 16% of Azerbaijan” Source: CIA World Factbook 2010: Azerbaijan, ISSN 1553-8133, https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/aj.html

“The Republic of Armenia has claimed that all Armenian citizens participating in hostilities in Nagorno Karabakh [region] or [remainder of] Azerbaijan are merely 'volunteers.' Human Rights Watch / Helsinki found that this claim is not true...”

“In addition to committing troops to the conflict against Azerbaijan and in support of the Nagorno Karabakh rebels, the Republic of Armenia also has provided material aid to the rebels...” Source: Human Rights Watch / Helsinki (HRW). Seven Years of Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, December 1994, 136 pp., ISBN 1-56432-142-8.

[Serge]

Dear @gr8vision, @Yana, @Werner, @Yuska (Sorry if someone else has forgotten or accidentally added) Your claims that's just these two languages only correct on Google maps in your area, and can be in Azerbaijani and English only - this is nonsense.

Any user can always add the names to any feature in any language.

Without deleting an existing name! Just push on [Add more names] on the left panel when editing the entire road or feature). Select the Language (in which the name of the road has been entered). You also need to select an appropriate Type.

From Map Maker Help:

We encourage mappers to add names in multiple languages to add value to the information that's available on Maps. It also helps us display the name correctly based on users' browser settings.

For instance, if you enter the name of the feature in French and set the language appropriately, the name will be displayed in French to the people who have their default browser language set to French.

For more information see Road names and Shape Name

[Raffi]

I'm done talking in circles.  Karabakh exists, even though you don't want it to.  We think a grey dotted line similar to the ones for N. Cyprus, Palestine and Kosovo should be added.  That's all.  It's very simple.  You disagree.  That's your right.  End of conversation.

[gr8vision]

Of course you are absolutely wrong on every single count - Garry Kasparov, whose father is Jewish, and therefore, he is Jewish, is not only universally loved in Azerbaijan, but he didn't live in Azerbaijan since early 1980s, long before the conflict, and was not driven out anywhere. Please refrain from such slander! You are only embarrassing yourself with such hatemongering and malicious information that is based on propaganda claims. 

Also, as stated, according to the U.S. State Department's annual report, there are tens thousands of Armenians living in Azerbaijan, yet no Azerbaijanis remain in Armenia (they used to be well over 200,000 till 1987). 

The Azeri president never said anything what you are alleging. Please prove it - this is a very false propaganda claim that has absolutely no basis or merit. But there are many things that CURRENT Armenian President said - would you like me to cite them here? Sure, here:

In the words of the current President of Armenia and then the Armenian military commander Serzh  Sargsyan: "Before Khojali, the Azerbaijanis thought that they were joking with us, they thought that  the Armenians were people who could not raise their hand against the civilian population. We were able to break that [stereotype]." Source: Thomas de Waal, "Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through peace and war", New York & London: New York University Press, 2003, p. 172.

How about multiple Azerbaijanophobic, Turcophobic, anti-Mongolian, and Islamophobic comments top Armenian officials have made over the years?

"In response, the demonstrators attacked the police, chanting slogans “Turks, Turks”, meaning to be and sound very offensive. ... But the reality is Levon Ter-Petrossian started this racist approach in his numerous speeches by introducing the term “Tatar-Mongols” to describe the Armenian government, calling their actions worse than what “Turks” have been doing to the Armenian nation and bringing a sharp division between Armenians from Karabakh and Armenia proper." Source: Armenian Opposition Promotes Racism Again, The Armenian Observer Blog, Posted on November 12, 2010, http://ditord.com/2010/11/12/armenian-opposition-promotes-racism-again/

"Judging from all LTP has really studied this stage of Mongol-Tatar caravanserai in a very good way and at present he is trying to use the same methodology in the political processes in Armenia. But Armenia is not a Mongol-Tatar caravanserai, LTP’s methodology won’t work here.” Spartak Seyranyan believes." Source: ARMENIA IS NOT MONGOL-TATAR CARAVANSERAI, "Hayoc Ashkharh" daily newspaper in Armenia, Tuesday, 4 March 2008, #41/2593, http://www.armworld.am/archive.php?day=4&month=3&year=2008&lang=_eng

"Another part of the protest mass does not understand how the ANC, which still calls the current authorities “a Mongol-Tatar yoke”, could agree to negotiate with the man whom it accuses of usurping power". Source: NAIRA HAYRUMYAN, Political vacation: Opposition takes ‘time out’, but issues another ultimatum to authorities, ArmeniaNow, 01.07.11, http://www.armenianow.com/commentary/analysis/30790/armenian_national_congress_rally

"According to a transcript posted on an opposition website, former president and opposition Levon-Ter Petrosyan called Armenia’s current administration a “Tatar-Mongolian” regime, a euphemism for “invading Turks,” just seconds into his speech on Friday, June 20, 2008". Source: Enough of the Racism, Mr. Petrosyan!, Blogian, 21 Jun 2008, http://blogian.hayastan.com/2008/06/21/enough-of-the-racism-mr-petrosyan/

Nikol Pashinyan at the Armenian National Congress rally in Yerevan on June 22, 2011: "The kleptocratic, Mongol-Tatar government must leave. On these days, we are asked about the dialogue why we are ready to engage in a dialogue with the bandits." Source: BANDITS MUST BE ELIMINATED THROUGH OFFENSIVE, Lragir newspaper, June 30, 2011, http://www.lragir.am/engsrc/country-lrahos22451.html

"MP Galust Sahakyan (Republican), who used to learn music, says there is a Mongol-Tatar motif in the song, and one would rather say the Armenians are going to sing a Mongol-Tatar song. ... Artashes Geghamyan, the leader of the National Unity, endorses Galust Sahakyan's `public stricture that the esthetic taste of the top-officials of Armenia likes Mongol-Tatar music.'" Source: EUROVISION, ANDRE AND MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT, Lragir newspaper, March 24, 2006.

About the Armenian Minister of Agriculture Sergo Karapetyan: "The journalists also asked about the results of minister’s decision on including the Christian priest into the works of agriculture ministry. “I do not understand. Are you Christians at all or you are Muslims?” replied the minister annoyed." Source: “Are you Christians at all or you are Muslims?” Armenian official annoyed at journalists, August 13, 2011, http://news.am/eng/news/70895.html

[Serge]

P.S. Would highly recommend to look at how many languages ​​are named the features, for example, Tashkent, Yerevan, and even Baku. Removal of names in other languages ​​- it's sabotage. Such an action is unacceptable in the international open project.

[Mr-G]

This discussion it's sensless because we (as users) cannot edit borders of any country (because of users like you). Only Google employs can add or change borders.

In my opinion, is not the case for NK to be added, not even with green dotted lines.

Administrativ area (as i propose above, in my other posts) is the best solutions. And yes, city and other features name in this region can be added as azer and armenian also (first azer - prefereted, second armenian - prefereted).

I am not partizan of any of this sides, but if one region it's not recognized from any UN- country members (including Armenia in this case), then no borders should be there.

That's it. WE must wait for an official posision from Google.

[gr8vision]

Dear Serge -- for starters, the mere suggestion (not a rule or requirement!) you cited is for ROADs and SHAPEs, not for cities, regions, villages. 

Secondly, no one prevents users from adding Azerbaijani names to Armenian cities, for example, to Yerevan, Gyumri, Echmiadzin, etc. 

Thirdly, it's one thing to TRANSLATE a name, e.g., Yerevan in English becomes Ереван in Russian, and it's a completely different thing to TOTALLY CHANGE the name, like what Raffi and others have done with Lachin, Kalbajar, Karki, Khankendi, Fuzuli, Aghdam, Jabrail, Zangilan, etc. 

[gr8vision]

Dear Serge - real and true sabotage is when anyone either removes Azerbaijani names (and their correct English spelling) from any Azerbaijani cities, towns, villages or regions, as well as when they make those names secondary, under some imaginary names of regions, i.e., Kelbajar, the official and only internationally-recognized name of a region and town suddenly finds itself under some "Karvachar".

Likewise, it's totally wrong to virtually occupy someone's lands - yet that's what some users have done with the exclaves of Karki (off of Naxcivan region of Azerbaijan), and Askipara and Barkhudarly (off of Qazakh region of Azerbaijan). These are all concrete and real examples. Please help us fix this nonsense and outrage, and as you have correctly termed it, SABOTAGE. Thanks. 

[Serge]

@gr8vision: I see not even a "suggestion", but a hate speechs. And also I see a complete lack of desire to read the Map Maker Help a little deeper - Political regions: Name

[Raffi]

I hate continuing on an off-topic conversation, and especially with someone who clearly is not interested in hearing the truth, but here is what Kasparov has to say about Baku and the anti-Armenian pogroms: http://kasparovchessfoundation.org/About/bio.html

The fact that you choose to recognize him as a Jew only, and refuse to acknowledge he is half-Armenian is quite sad.

If you want the Azerbaijani presidential quote regarding Armenians, here it is:

"If there is a single Armenian left in Karabakh this October, Azeris will hang him in Baku's Central Square ..."

(Excerpt from a public address of Abulfaz Elchibey, President of the Republic of Azerbaijan, June 1992)

Now can we please stay on topic?

[gr8vision]

Yes, unfortunately, I too, see that Raffi has been spreading a lot of hate speeches here today. That's OK, I've responded to him with facts and concrete citations to show him that his groundless accusations are just hate speech.

Meanwhile, once again, please kindly refer to my previous posts - what Raffi and some others have been doing on the map of Azerbaijan goes against all rules and standards, including those you cite. They do not simply "localize" names into other languages, they CHANGE them completely and without merit. 

[gr8vision]

Raffi, you started all this "off-topic" hate speeches, so please don't get upset that I call a spade a spade, and don't let you just throw around your hate speeches and malicious claims. Your play with quotes is hardly surprizing - please provide a verifiable citation of the forged and made-up quote of the long-deceased Elchibey. What day of the month did he supposedly say it? In which newspaper was it printed? In which language? On what page? You won't be able to show that, as he never said it, and it's all made up by Armenian propaganda, and has been circulating on Usenet for years. So please stop spreading hate, especially one based on such cheap and dirty propaganda claims.

The link about Kasparov proves my words and disproves your claim that Kasparov lived in Baku and somehow suffered from Soviet tank invasion in January 1990, which is known as Black January to all. The fact that in such a turbulent time he was able to ENTER Baku and LEAVE Baku in a matter of days shows that not only was he not harmed (and could not have been), but had total help and cooperation and assistance from all. 

BTW, it's also not true - his father's brother, Weinstein, and his family, including famous Timur Weinstein, stayed in Baku, and Timur, cousin of Garry, became a famous KVN player of the Azerbaijani all-star team. 

Also, it's not true what they say about KGB -- none other than Heydar Aliyev, a former KGB general, helped Garry Kasparov in his career, as did a KGB operative Tofik Dadashov. This is well documented and known in ex-USSR.

[Serge]

Dear both opposing sides. I think that's enough.

[gr8vision]

It's very simple Raffi - "Karabakh" does not exist as an independent or even semi-independent "state". That's unlike Palestine (see it's UN Observer Mission: http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/palestine/ ) or Kosovo, which is recognized by 79 UN member nations (http://www.kosovothanksyou.com/). Even Abkhazia and South Ossetia are recognized by 2-3 nations. And Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is recognized by Turkey and before that was recognized by others, too, plus U.S. has had direct flights there, and Greek Cyprus president meets with TRNC president. Nothing of this sort exists in the occupied Azerbaijani territories such as Karabakh. It does not exist as an independent state, it is not an independent state, it is not the same as Palestine, whose leader is called "president" by all and meets the Israeli PM and American Presidents in the White House. Can you image that for Bako Sahakyan or his ilk? Of course not! When they come to US on ARMENIA diplomatic passports, as citizens of Armenia, they are not even allowed to go inside US State Department, much less White House, and they can't even meet with an ATTACHE, much less President! All negotiations about occupied Azerbaijani territories are between Presidents of Armenia and Azerbaijan. So please don't confuse Kosovo/Palestine with occupied Azerbaijani territories. Please be real and look at the world without bias and prejudice. Do adhere to the law, and respect it. 

[Raffi]

Ah, now we're back on topic.

Is the president of N. Cyprus allow to meet with an "ATTACHE"?  Nope.  But is there a border between N. Cyprus and the rest of Cyprus on Google Maps?  Yes.  Is there in the real world a border between Armenian forces in Karabakh and Azerbaijan?  Yes.  Should the be reflected in Google Maps?  Yes, that's what we're saying.

[Anar]

Karabakh is not a country. It's occupied territory of Azerbaijan. Take a look to official documents.

[PlusNinety]

According to official documents N.Cyprus and Kosovo also arn't countries. But de facto Karabakh and all they are.

[Yana Werner]

Nice. Then I will go ahead and add Azerbaijani names to the towns in Armenia. Is it what you mean?

[Yana Werner]

Dear Serge, using your logic, shall I go ahead and add Azerbaijani names next to the settlements in Armenia without deleting the Armenian names?
Also, please note that Armenian users are deleting all the Azerbaijani names in the map of the internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan - Nagorno Karabakh and seven regions. How right is it?

[Yana Werner]

Nonsense. NK is recognized as part of Azerbaijan. There cannot be any border between NK and Azerbaijan just like there cannot be any border between Ukraine and Ukraine.

[Yana Werner]

We are listening to you, Raffi. There is neither de-facto, nor de-jure borders of Nagorno Karabakh. There is no border of NK in any quality whatsoever because it is not a legal internationally recognized entity. Only legal entities can have borders.
Also, it is funny: the cease-fire line can change many times ;) Likewise, it can disappear altogether. Will you be modifying it every day? :) I think the whole disussion is just absurd.
What you are saying as "awareness of the users" is in fact misleading of the users.
I think this poitless discussion must be closed.

[Yana Werner]

Nagorno Karabakh cannot be treated as Kosovo, N.Cyprus or Palestine. The three are recognized by one or more countries. NK is not recognized by any country. De jure, it is part of Azerbaijan and therefore cannot have any borders of its own,even grey ones.

[Yana Werner]

Goole Map must operate only with de-jure notions, not with de-facto, especially when the latter is established by force.

[Raffi]

Feel free.  There's no reason not to.

[Raffi]

No, it is already operating with de-facto borders established by force, as you can see in N. Cyprus.  What we need is consistency, and for the same to be done in Karabakh.

[Raffi]

Or like there is no border between Cyprus and (N.) Cyprus?  Or between Serbia and Serbia (Kosovo)?

There can be a border and there is in fact a border.  Both in the real world and on Google Maps.

[Raffi]

It is pointless to discuss the subject with people who won't recognize basic facts.  Karabakh is a de-facto independent country, whether you like it or not.  By saying it isn't does not make it disappear.  The cease-fire line has remained virtually unchanged since 1994.  There is nothing funny about this and if it disappears, we won't be having this conversation.  If you think the whole discussion is absurd and must be closed, feel free not to participate.  Thanks.

[Saikrishna Arcot]

+1 with Serge. Please take your argument regarding this elsewhere. The Map Maker forums isn't for debating which news is correct and whether someone moved because of the conflict or not.

[Rohit]

I am locking this thread and request you to avoid making personal remarks against other community members 

As has been noted by Serge in one of the posts above, we understand that the current borders, in certain cases, are hard to depict and we would request your patience till we have a better solution. 

We thank you for posting your thoughts but, at the same time would insist that discussions not veer off-topic or result in disrespectful comments towards each other.

Thanks,

Rohit.