Secondary fuels at gas stations getting their own POI

[Flash]

I need some advice as to how have people have handled or seen handled a situation like the following edit.  I am reviewing http://www.google.com/mapmaker?gw=55&editids=U9XVeOulWfhV0cL3Yz, where the mapper has mapped a Clean Energy natural gas refueling depot. I checked the Clean Energy website and this is listed as a location. However, I also recognized this location as a Chevron gas station, so I went to their website and confirmed that this is still one of their locations.

There are obvious errors I will need to deal with when educating the mapper, such as a lack of address. My question before I begin to do so is; would this normally be mapped with both a Cheveron POI and a Clean Energy POI? Or should it just be a Cheveron POI with Natural Gas listed in their description? Would someone needing natural gas be able to find this station if it was only in the description?

This is something I can see coming up more in the future; many of the stations around here such as Shell, Chevron and Canadian specific brands of gas stations will have another brands propane, LNG and CNG; with the name of this other brand prominently displayed on the sign and the hold tank. But before you ask, my thread title is not meant to indicate that every time a station carries it's own brand of diesel, racing gas, etc. that it should be considered; I am just referring to another company that has it's own website and own list of retail locations.

[Geoffrey Perez]

I would say the feature can be marked separate but with identifiers in the name. GMM Help does allow features like "Starbucks (within Safeway)" after all. Just make sure the identifiers aren't too excessive as well.

I'd have the Chevron POI as the primary feature and the separate Clean Energy POI refer to it, of course.

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[Nuclear Moose]

This is something that I continually wrestle with. Let's look at the Starbucks/Safeway situation - if you can call that Starbucks directly or if they have their own mailing address, like a unit # inside the address of the Safeway, then I don't have any second thoughts about added the Starbucks POI.

In the case of a business offering a niche product that is branded differently than their own products, like what Flash is talking about, then I hesitate to add a POI for that. To me, that information belongs in the description. As long as it's searchable, then that's what counts. Some might say that the product deserves its own POI as it really is separate and distinct from the rest of the business, and so that if someone was looking for "Clean Energy" products they would easily find them. Okay, fair enough. But what about Airmiles?

Would we put an Airmiles POI at every business that offers that service? My answer: No. Put it in the description. How about a VISA, MasterCard or American Express POI? Each of these things might bring a customer to your door, right? In a very short time POI clustering makes maps nearly useless.

Here's another aspect of this - let's say Chevron doesn't renew its contract with Clean Energy next year. Rather than having a simple update to the Chevron POI description, we now have to look at a POI being deleted. Who knows how long it might take for that edit to be reviewed and approved. It's a lot of work and potentially could take several reviews prior to removal, whereas a simple edit of the Chevron POI description field has far less overhead.

I know that probably the vast majority of editors want the POIs, and figure it's G's responsibility to map the map look pretty, but if we clutter maps up with endless POIs, we aren't making a very good product. Maybe it's time to have a new feature like some kind of Super POI or something where we have this kind of situation addressed but done under a single point.

It's easier to create something flexible rather than create a whole bunch of policies and best practises which take a lot of time to learn and apply properly.

Just some food for thought. Let's hear your ideas and comments!

[Flash]

What I would really love to see is a Gas Station POI have a checklist of all possible fuels.  After all, this is a map, with the majority of users driving vehicles, and alternative fuels for said vehicles are becoming more and more popular, so this could be one of the most important things to be mapped from the vehicle drivers point of view.

[Saikrishna Arcot]

Erm...Flash, did you copy the right link?

[Flash]

Obviously not;  and sorry if I offended anyone on that.  It was something I was sending to my wife at the same time, she laughed her head off.  But I seem to be having issues lately with the wrong URL showing in the wrong tab as I switch back and forth; I think I need to disable a bunch of extensions and see if they are the culprits.  It was just a Jimmy Kimmel clip off of TV, but since people from around the world visit here, I don't want to offend someone else.  Deleting the above and reposting with the correct link.

The lack of a separate phone number and a dedicated employee is sort of what has me leaning towards declining the edit.  The problem is, the new mapper has done multiple locations throughout Vancouver, all of which have yet to have the actual gas station marked with a POI.  I don't want to discourage them.

I just took another look, and the mapper is doing other cities as well.  It appears that if the gas station was already mapped, the mapper is just adding a note to it.  However, in one case in Vancouver where the mapper just added a note to the Esso POI, a GR has gotten involved and used very poor techniques; if you are thousands of miles away you shouldn't be telling the person outright that they are wrong, but rather you should state that your info doesn't match and can they provide more info.  This one isn't on the Clean Energy website, but I know the station and I know they have natural gas, and "Natural Gas" can be clearly seen on the Esso sign in Street View.

Any other opinions out there?

[Steve Ruge]

Clean Energy has also hit the Denver/Boulder Metro. In my case I have been approving them because they are usually at a separate pump on a separate island.

Technically you can call them - you will be calling the corporate office - but they seem to be leasing island space or selling their product to the existing station.

This technically is not the station doing their own brand as I understand it - it is the parent company Clean Energy supplying those pumps separate of say Shell, etc.

I may be wrong but this is an interesting topic.

[Flash]

I'm thinking this mapper must work for them as she is mapping them all.  I looked at a few edits in other areas, and sometimes these are stand alone stations; so I guess they would get their own POI then though I think they don't have an attendant and are card lock.  But here in BC you must have an attendant dispense propane; there is no self-serve allowed; so I suspect it would be the same for natural gas.  Therefore the gas station employee would help you.  Even if they didn't, it is the same employee collecting money for gas and for the natural gas, so it's not really a business within a business.  As I think about it more, if we allowed it, then Coke and Pepsi could start putting markers at every gas station and argue is is a similar arrangement.

[Josh Manchester]

This all comes down to advertising and whether or not you want people to see what alternative products are sold.

This came up a few years ago in a discussion I was having about how to change the way the American public (and others) saw alternative fuels and vehicles.  The problem that we had was that you needed a good infrastructure to be able to support alternative fuel cars but how do you do it without having to invest capital into building your own fuel stations.  So the idea to use the infrastructure that was already in place, i.e. your Shell and Chevron stations, to sell the product.

Now the kicker, most people will not spend their money on an alternative fuel car if the fuels aren't sold locally.  Now if I were to go searching for a place to purchase these fuels I would not think to look at a Petroleum dealer that sells Unleaded and Diesel fuels.  I would be searching for the alternative fuels by name, like CNG, LNG, Hydrogen etc...  If more people know that these fuels have a good infrastructure maybe we can get the public to buy more of these alternative fuel vehicles.

Just my two cents and a vote for the POI for the fuels themselves instead of a bi-line in the description of a Petrol selling station.

[Nuclear Moose]

A search will pick up the fuel type whether it is a separate POI or in the description of the gas/petrol station, so why pollute the map with unnecessary POI markers?

[Steve Ruge]

I'm still approving these as separate POI's because in Clean Energy's instance these are

a) separate pumps NOT connected to the stations they appear at

b) card locked - meaning that the local station owner does not take payment for the fuel dispensed at these pumps

You can confirm the card lock status at the company's website at http://www.batchgeo.com/map/a5a159d0d5184251fdcc848a766a4aba where they list on each point what payment type is accepted.

This may be wrong but I'm sure if it is my mentor will bring it up in one of my monthly reviews. Technically this fuel type should not be attached to the parent gas station company because they are not the merchandiser and do not accept payment for the fuel - at least at the Colorado USA stations I am checking - the money and fuel providing are going to Clean Energy through the card lock.

Again YMMV.

[DdDave]

I think these are have more similarities to ATM machines then they do to coke machines and such.  I would defer to this link, and use a separate POI based on the fact that it operates separate from the main gas station pumps as described by Steve.

[Flash]

They seem to be different in each area.  Ones I looked at in street view in the south were cardlock operations on their own; no gas station at the same location.  Steve describes in his area that they are card lock and a separate island.  But in my area they are just another pump on the same island and you are buying it from the station.  I think every area needs to be handled differently.

[Moid]

Hey guys,

This is being discussed internally. Appreciate your patience till I post back with an official update. 

Regards,

Moid

[Moid]

Hi Guys,

We've had this discussed internally. In this particular case, the gas station can be marked as a boundary and 'Clean Energy' listing can be added as a separate POI. This allows us to remove the listing, in case they move out of the gas station. 

Since some listings are already in place, I request you to make the appropriate changes. 

PS: This shouldn't in anyway mean that we can go about marking each and every kiosk/vending machine :)

[Flash]

Sorry to drag this one up again, but I was looking for it because someone wanted to map a kiosk/vending machine.

I was going to refer him here, but I see that the list of permitted businesses basically says wherever I can complete a business transaction, and then specifies in the permitted list "Kiosks (automated, unmanned transactions)".  I thought I should therefore update this thread so people are aware that Moid's advice has been superseded.

I shall start with the Coke machines in my town, and then move on to Pepsi, water and energy drink machines.  After I'll work on the parking meters; downtown Vancouver should drive my edit count through the roof, with about 40 meters per city block.

Too bad payphones are pretty well a thing of the past......

[Craig Hartel]

Don't forget about the newspaper vending machines! What about the ticket dispensers for transit (or do they have transit out in the boonies where you live <evil grin>). 

[Andrew Sawyer]

@Craig I thought Transit features were off limits. Or is that just the US ;-)

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From: General Map Maker on behalf of Craig Hartel <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQdV...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Craig Hartel <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:23:43 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Craig Hartel <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Secondary fuels at gas stations getting their own POI

Don't forget about the newspaper vending machines! What about the ticket dispensers for transit (or do they have transit out in the boonies where you live <evil grin>). 

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[Craig Hartel]

Hmmm good point. I stay far away from those features anyway, but hey, there probably isn't a "transit ticket vending machine" category so maybe it would make it through anyway! :^)

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 8:32:54 AM UTC-7, Andrew Sawyer wrote:

@Craig I thought Transit features were off limits. Or is that just the US ;-)

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From: General Map Maker on behalf of Craig Hartel <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQdVC_05skEtRo3SVecNaJSs8fTiHESYoIRG@googlegroups.com>

[Flash]

When I mail a letter, I complete my transaction at a mailbox.....