Solid, accurate edits being automatically denied

[Mark Sullivan]

Hi, I need some guidance here. It seems that someone marked my as a spammer or something because all of the edits I make are being automatically denied.

 I make edits all the time on businesses that I work with to try and correct their information. I try to only report non owner-verified listings that have incorrect information that is verifiable on the web.

Here's an example. I recently reported an incorrect address on an un-owner-verified listing, here's the link to it http://maps.google.com/maps/place?q=Royal+Flush+Plumbing+%26+Heating,+Schenectady&hl=en&cid=1858017020387658612.

Here is the response I received. Note the 3 citations I listed in the comments to reviewer section that clearly indicate that my edit is correct.

Dear Mark

Your change has been denied by Vullanki, a trusted reviewer.

Reason: Other
Comments:
Hi, we couldn't verify the changes made. Hence unable to approve the edit. Thanks!
Reply

This change has total 0 approvals and 1 denials

Previous comments:

·  http://www.superpages.com/bp/Schenectady-NY/Royal-Flush-Plumbing-Heating-L0125766745.htm?=

http://www.dexknows.com/business_profiles/royal_flush_plumbing_and_heating-l808513901

http://directory.wfaa.com/biz/royal-flush-plumbing-heating/schenectady/ny/12309/7274471 (by you)

[Flash]

You gave us a link to the Places page, not the Map Maker edit.  Are you making these changes in Maps rather than Map Maker?

[fhdogs]

Hi Mark, I can't comment about the edit, or the straight denial with requesting more information, but I can tell you that you should avoid links like that in your edits. They are all copy written sources. 

Also I personally never use directory sites even for "research". Generally those type of sites use the same databases Google has access to. So an error on one ends up being an error everywhere. Stick to what you know, or what the actual POI tells you.

But again, the denial without a request I don't know. 

-Mike

[Flash]

I saw that in another thread you commented that you leave a lot of citations in an edit.  If you place a bunch of links to copyrighted material in your comments, then often it cannot be approved.  If it was, the owners of that material could claim their information was stolen.

If you make the edits in Map Maker, we can then engage in conversation with you and ask you to undo it.  But if they are made in Maps, we only have the option to deny it.

Map Maker is for mapping personal knowledge only.  If you drive by a place all the time and know the address is wrong, state that in your comments... "I live here, I pass this business all the time, the address is wrong."  What is really helpful also is if you can update the business URL if they have their own website.

[Mark Sullivan]

In many text boxes throughout the different methods to edits listings, there is help text that asks for information on how the reviewer can validate the information I'm providing. While I can understand the copyright concerns, I'm wondering what kind of information Google wants in these fields if not links to validate what I am correcting.

I am constantly being automatically denied edits and I've tried many different methods (I meticulously track every edit I make, and the methodology involved, e.g. edits, report a problem, mapmaker, troubleshooter, etc.) In the absence of explicit detail from google on how to help clean up the bad data, my tracking can be elucidating. While I know many people just create a different user account and get power user status in order to continue editing, I want my name removed from this blacklist because I'm making proper edits.

Who do I talk to in order to get removed from this list?  I went from a 88% positive response from Google on my Edits in February to 65% in March, and now below 25% for April. Please help.

Thanks, Mark

[Flash]

The information they want is just what I told you; personal knowledge.  If there has ever been a request for something other than that, please link us to it.

If there are comments from an approver, then you are not black listed and you are not being automatically denied; these were manually done.  Again, I'll ask, where are you editing from?

It is good to hear that you want to get this right rather than just create a new account; that is the type of person we all like to help to become a better mapper.  To help you further, can you link us to your Map Maker profile so that we can look at some of the edits and help determine if the reviewer has been not doing his due diligence?

[Mark Sullivan]

I make edits via Edits, Report a Problem, MapMaker, and sometimes Troubleshooter. Here is a recent edit made through Mapmaker where the listing doesn't even have a street name or number. http://www.google.com/mapmaker?gw=55&editids=sK80tf9iMdfltT2aR2&iwloc=0_0

Here is my Mapmaker profile: http://www.google.com/mapmaker?gw=66&uid=202621021700520842480

[assa...@gmail.com]

Mark, don't put links into the comment field. There are only a few occasions where this is allowed. Google has instituted a virtually blanket practice of not allowing links to avoid Copyright issues. Take Flash's advice and only use "local knowlege" or info already on the Map to substantiate your edits.

You cannot make edits via Report or Feedback (unless you are suggesting edits because the feature is uneditable in Map Maker). Abusing these feature, if that's what you're doing (I don't know) will likely get your account flagged.

If a feature doesn't have a physical address then the proper action is to add the address if known or remove it for lack of a physical address. When I am by a computer I can actually look into your profile and edits more closely.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Mark Sullivan <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Mark Sullivan <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 09:41:43 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Mark Sullivan <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Solid, accurate edits being automatically denied

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[Flash]

I was hoping that we might be able to see some details of your denied edits; sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.  Unfortunately, it appears that I'm not able to get a view of what you actually did on your denials.

Can I ask you this, where there any that were made in Map Maker that were denied without you first being asked to clarify, undo or make changes?  As I said, we can't do that via Maps edits, but it should always be done on Map Maker edits.

I think the biggest thing to making sure that your trust level goes up is to attempt to always make your edits from Map Maker.  I would say that less than 1% do I have to go to Report a Problem.

I can also tell you that having denials in the past does make a reviewer take a second look, but if your edit is good then it should be approved.  We all have denials from our learning phase, but eventually you do enough edits that the denials are less that 1% of your total work, and so it displays as 100% approved.

[Flash]

Andrew - The missing street number edit is one of the bad transfers from Places.  It shows as a street name only, but when you hit details you see the street number of 112.  When you then open it to edit it, there is only a city listed.

Mark - For that one, did you try to correct the address, or ask for it to be deleted?  Was it done through Map Maker, and if so did you get a response asking you to do something or was it a straight denial?

[assa...@gmail.com]

Flash - I was aware that bug was lingering. I thought he was talking about a lack of an street name and #. I know I have typically found the number on the history (if it has a long one) or from sluthing. I would never deny one of those edits unless it made things worse. Its annoying to have to approve and then clean up the mess.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Flash <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Flash <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 10:01:53 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Flash <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Solid, accurate edits being automatically denied

Andrew - The missing street number edit is one of the bad transfers from Places.  It shows as a street name only, but when you hit details you see the street number of 112.  When you then open it to edit it, there is only a city listed.

Mark - For that one, did you try to correct the address, or ask for it to be deleted?  Was it done through Map Maker, and if so did you get a response asking you to do something or was it a straight denial?

--

[Mark Sullivan]

@Andrew - You say to only use Mapmaker for edits and that abusing the features of Report a Problem and Edits on maps would get one flagged. I've obviously been flagged but I have not been abusing them. I'm wondering how to get un-flagged. Using the same methodology in March (65% approval) as the month before in February (88% approval) and then diversifying a bit to include Mapmaker and be more diligent about giving citations (which I now understand is NOT the way to go) in April (25% approval), why would I all of a sudden be flagged?  Why were my edits good in February but not in April if I'm using the same methods?

@Flash - A couple things. First, to answer your most recent question about how I made the Edit to CSR Security Services. I wanted to correct the address because it is incorrect. Because the correct address was not close enough to where the pin marker was, I had to first move the pin by carefully comparing another tab with the correct address and the edit tab to make sure I was marking the exact location where the correct address was. I then was able to change the address to the correct street name, #, and everything. Below is the response I got that seems to be auto generated (because I get this a lot.)

CSR Security Services:

Denied

Changed 20 hours 1 mins ago by Mark

Geometry

Changed:

Location moved

Before change

After change

Address

Changed:

Hillview, KY 40129, United States  →  112 West Blue Jay Road, Louisville, KY 40229, United States

Denied 7 hours 19 mins ago by Vullanki

Reason: Other

Hi, we couldn't verify the changes made. Hence unable to approve the edit. Thanks!

cont'd from before the paste: To answer your other question about an example where there wasn't any feedback about the denied edit. Here is a link for you with an edit I made that was auto-denied: http://www.google.com/mapmaker?gw=55&editids=sK80tf9ecxptJ8JgjP&iwloc=0_0

@ALL: I'm thoroughly confused on the differences between Maps, MapMaker, and Places. I work with many business owners that have no clue how a Place was created for their business at an incorrect location, or missing the suite number, or why it has an address that is 10 years old. My question is, how do I correct these problems. If @Andrew is saying that I shouldn't emply the Report a Problem or the Maps Edits method, then how does Google want me to do correct the poor data. I would like to do things the correct way but it seems that I've been flagged by somebody (or algo) because of not reporting or making edits or mapping in the "proper" way.

Any clarification on these issues would be wonderful.  Thank you both for helping me look at this. I've been trying different things for 2 months now to figure out what is going on when I should have just come straight to the forums with my problems/questions. 

On Friday, May 18, 2012 12:06:52 PM UTC-5, Andrew Sawyer wrote:

Flash - I was aware that bug was lingering. I thought he was talking about a lack of an street name and #. I know I have typically found the number on the history (if it has a long one) or from sluthing. I would never deny one of those edits unless it made things worse. Its annoying to have to approve and then clean up the mess.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Flash <google-mapmaker@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Flash <google-mapmaker@googlegroups.com>

Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 10:01:53 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-mapmaker@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Flash <google-mapmaker@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Solid, accurate edits being automatically denied

Andrew - The missing street number edit is one of the bad transfers from Places.  It shows as a street name only, but when you hit details you see the street number of 112.  When you then open it to edit it, there is only a city listed.

Mark - For that one, did you try to correct the address, or ask for it to be deleted?  Was it done through Map Maker, and if so did you get a response asking you to do something or was it a straight denial?

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On Friday, May 18, 2012 12:06:52 PM UTC-5, Andrew Sawyer wrote:

Flash - I was aware that bug was lingering. I thought he was talking about a lack of an street name and #. I know I have typically found the number on the history (if it has a long one) or from sluthing. I would never deny one of those edits unless it made things worse. Its annoying to have to approve and then clean up the mess.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

---

From: General Map Maker on behalf of Flash <google-mapmaker@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of Flash <google-mapmaker@googlegroups.com>

Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 10:01:53 -0700 (PDT)

To: <google-mapmaker@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of Flash <google-mapmaker@googlegroups.com>

[Flash]

I believe the reason you've seen your denial rate go up is partially because you're using more citations; but also because this is the time period during which Google was forced to adopt the more stringent requirements. So an edit with a citation might have been accepted in January or February, but the same edit wouldn't be accepted now.

Can I just confirm one thing?  The CSR Security Services edit, was that made in Map Maker?  I'm sorry to be so nit-picky; but if we can get all the information in clear form, then when one of the Google forum mods reads this, he can determine if the back line agent needs coaching.  I can assure you that denials until now have not been automatic; and that comment from Vullanki shows you that he reviewed it.  If it was a Map edit, that is all he can do.  If it was a Map Maker edit, then he didn't follow procedure.

In general, most of what you see on maps was scrapped from databases and websites.  We'll never know exactly what sources, Google must negotiate for rights to use many of them, but lets assume some to create some examples.  Lets say that Google has the rights to use a list of business licenses for a city, but it is 3 years old.  Let's further assume that the city messed up and listed your client at an address 3 years after he moved.  So now Google will place a marker at that location that he hasn't been in for 5 years.  If you delete it, it will get put back in the next time Google checks that database.  Instead, you want to use Map Maker to mark the location as closed, and then put a marker at the new location.  If it is just a small move, you can also relocate the marker.  In either case, when the database gets checked again, it will find that the marker already exists (with subsequent edits) and will not add it again.

That's a simplified approach, but basically the many sources of data Google has will have errors; Google is trying to build a more accurate map than any of the sources available.  You can help by making edits, and we are recommending Map Maker to you because it gives the largest range of edit options, and because it allows communication back and forth with the reviewers.  Map Maker is used to review Maps edits and some Places edits also, but because they are different tools we don't have the feedback/discussion option and thus only have a approve or deny option.

Maps edits are intended more for the person that makes one correction and never does another edit.  It is also the only option in an area before Map Maker opens in that area.

Places is for an owner to claim there business and prove their claim.  The data they then enter is used in part to create the final marker on Maps; but we still have the option in Map Maker to edit it if the owner doesn't keep it up to date or tries to use his claimed status to now spam.

[Mark Sullivan]

@Flash - Thank you for the detailed reply. For the record, I only began using citations when I began to be robo-denied (or at the very least I thought that was the case.) I hadn't been using them in the past and it was a recent effort to show Google that the edits I was making were legitimate and not spam. I now understand that to be the wrong approach. Although it is interesting to not that scraping is essentially a copyright infringement in the first order, regardless of whether it can be proven or not, and I find it odd that Google will do it for their spiders to get and confirm data, but not users who are specifically suggesting that as a potential data source to confirm the edit that is actually coming from a google user, freely and willingly.  Anyways, I get the point; I just want to do things the way that is acceptable and correct so thank you for your input.

For the edit on CSR Security Services, Yes, I did use Mapmaker to both move the marker location (so I could get the correct street names to populate) and subsequently correct the address. I can go through and find other examples of similar denials if that would help my stature as a mapper on Google's platform, which brings me to my next question that I'm still unclear on.

Is there anything I can do to get removed from this flagged status that Google has me under currently?  It seems that my edits in Mapmaker are being affected by my previous (as I understand from Andrew's posts) method of making Edits to the places pages themselves and then being flagged for "abuse" for some reason.

Thanks, Mark

[Mark Sullivan]

@fhdogs - What do you mean by "what the actual POI tells you"? I know point of interest is POI but I'm unclear on what you mean by this.

[fhdogs]

What I was trying to say was actual data provided by the POI. From the POI's website, storefront, a phone call to them, etc. 

[Andrew Sawyer]

Mark, It sounds that you are being auto-denied or are having your edits scrutinized because of adding URLs into the comments field. Were you given a reason when you were denied for those edits? 

Because you have so many edits that are denied that is probably why your CSR Security edit was denied. Its interesting that the KY Secretary of State doesn't have a business registered under that name.  I marked the creation of the Place as incomplete and also deleted it for lack of an address. 

By the way, who is Squids? That person has a resemblance to you. And if you are using two accounts to approve/validate your own edits you're engaging in some risky business. 

If your account is blocked or being auto-denied you should follow the Moderation Guidelines for Users:

Any User that has been blocked shall have an opportunity of applying to Google for the restoration of his account by sending an email toreportabus...@google.com stating appropriate reasons why his termination is not justified. The decision of Google in this regard shall be final and binding.

Do you have any other questions that haven't been answered, I'd be happy to respond to them once you clear up the issue of who Squids is.

[Mark Sullivan]

Hi Andrew, Thanks for the reply.

Squids is a coworker of mine, named Ryan. All of us here at the office work occasionally on Map Maker, although I am the main person that attempts to clean up our client's listings online when they contain incorrect or outdated information. This can often be a time-consuming process as google will have information that is 10 years old, and possibly have up to 5 different listings for the same business. Sometimes we begin work for our clients and learn that they have hired a spam SEO company in the past that has either purposely created up to 5 listings for the client using black-hat local SEO techniques, which in turn creates a lot more work for us. (We monitor google's guidelines for any changes that might affect how we do things, in addition to the most reputable Local SEO blogs by Blumenthal, Mihm, and others.)  I'm just trying to give you a little more background behind what we do so you can understand it and see that there is nothing we are doing willfully to break ANY of Google's guidelines. If we did start spamming for our clients we would risk the revenue of the entire company and our relationship with Google.

All that being said, in the past we have typically used the Edits and Report a Problem methods for correcting poor data. I am new to Map Maker and would like to make sure I'm doing things in the right way so I really appreciate your and others' feedback on these issues.

CSR Security: I was not given any reason for the denial of this edit, other than the perfunctory "Hi, we couldn't verify the changes made. Hence unable to approve the edit. Thanks!". Google uses various data sources from which to add listings, this one appears to have been scraped by the BBB, a common data source for G Places, from what I understand. I imagine google got the information for this listing from the BBB page with the same info.  As for it not being listing in the searchable KY SofS database, I don't have an answer; however, registered businesses go by many different trade names that may or may not have any resemblance to each other. Also, in some states, a trade name can be used for an Independent Contractor that files a 1099 and doesn't have a registered business (usually only for a certain period of time before they're required to register.)

Thank you for the info on restoring my account. I will send an email with an explanation of my past methodology for correcting information, and the often precarious situation of having to clean up the black-hat tactics that have been employed in the past on behalf of our clients.

Thanks and any other instructions on how to do things better given the explanations above would be much appreciated!  Also, I replied to your comment on ProNica Development (it's my own business.) Thanks again, Mark

On Saturday, May 19, 2012 8:05:23 PM UTC-5, Andrew Sawyer wrote:

Mark, It sounds that you are being auto-denied or are having your edits scrutinized because of adding URLs into the comments field. Were you given a reason when you were denied for those edits? 

Because you have so many edits that are denied that is probably why your CSR Security edit was denied. Its interesting that the KY Secretary of State doesn't have a business registered under that name.  I marked the creation of the Place as incomplete and also deleted it for lack of an address. 

By the way, who is Squids? That person has a resemblance to you. And if you are using two accounts to approve/validate your own edits you're engaging in some risky business. 

If your account is blocked or being auto-denied you should follow the Moderation Guidelines for Users:

Any User that has been blocked shall have an opportunity of applying to Google for the restoration of his account by sending an email toreportabuse-mapmaker@google.com stating appropriate reasons why his termination is not justified. The decision of Google in this regard shall be final and binding.

Do you have any other questions that haven't been answered, I'd be happy to respond to them once you clear up the issue of who Squids is.