name entry for roads with ordinal numbers

[geopgeop]

Okay, so the most common street name in the United States and Canada is Second Street / 2nd Street. This is a name with an ordinal number. I actually see nothing in the guidelines on how to deal with street names with ordinal numbers (but guidelines do deal with numbered highways, which is a different subject).

Am I right that all street names with such ordinal numbers should only be input as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. and not First, Second, Third, etc. even as an additional name because they would automatically be parsed and converted internally anyways when searching using the spelled out version? What happens if a community exclusively uses the spelled out name for First through at least Ninth on street signs, rather than 1st through 9th? Or how about cities that use both like in San Francisco, such as these for Third Street / 3rd Street: http://goo.gl/maps/rJLi9 http://goo.gl/maps/9uTZ5 and http://goo.gl/maps/kGuoT

Many style guides, in dealing with street names, say to spell out First through Ninth and leave 10th and above using numerals and letter suffixes. How should we deal with that here on Google Map Maker? What about international variants?

[Flash]

I go with what the city/county uses, as they are the ones giving it the official name, so that is officially how it should be done.  So in some towns I use 1 Avenue, and in others 1st Avenue, and then if it is the official name I've used in others First Avenue.  I don't just use signage, I find out what the official name is as per the city/county; as signs will contain abbreviation.  If there's an official name and then a common name (1st vs 1), then I give it multiple names and start using the Primary, Official and Obscure tags as appropriate.

[Geoffrey Perez]

Hmm... GMM uses physical addresses, not mailing addresses, so I don't know if this holds much weight, but this USPS document on page 13 says for numeric street names to use exactly whatever it says on the ZIP+4 file: http://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/pubs/Pub28/pub28.pdf

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Flash via General Map Maker <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQcd...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I go with what the city/county uses, as they are the ones giving it the official name, so that is officially how it should be done.  So in some towns I use 1 Avenue, and in others 1st Avenue, and then if it is the official name I've used in others First Avenue.  I don't just use signage, I find out what the official name is as per the city/county; as signs will contain abbreviation.  If there's an official name and then a common name (1st vs 1), then I give it multiple names and start using the Primary, Official and Obscure tags as appropriate.

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Geoffrey Perez

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[Andrew Sawyer]

I've been wondering this myself as well.

Some would say "1st" cannot be a name as ordinal numbers aren't letters and "1st" should only be used as an Abbreviation. I would always have a ordinal number "1st" as an abbreviate name. For example the First New Hampshire Turnpike in Northwood NH I labeled the abbreviation as "1st NH Tpke"

Now on the Official name I think it is easy: How does the governement recognized the name. If it's "1st" use that if it's "First" use that.

On the Primary name generally I think the street sign is the best indicator of this as it represents what people are looking for. Or you could use the name most people use for the Address.

I think that if for some reason the full spelling of the ordinal number isn't present it should be there, if not just as an Obscure number so it doesn't evade search.

Just putting out my general thought but wonder what others think.

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From: geopgeop via General Map Maker <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQet...@googlegroups.com>

Sender: General Map Maker on behalf of geopgeop <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:46:08 -0800 (PST)

To: <google-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: General Map Maker on behalf of geopgeop <google-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: name entry for roads with ordinal numbers

Okay, so the most common street name in the United States and Canada is Second Street / 2nd Street. This is a name with an ordinal number. I actually see nothing in the guidelines on how to deal with street names with ordinal numbers (but guidelines do deal with numbered highways, which is a different subject).

Am I right that all street names with such ordinal numbers should only be input as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. and not First, Second, Third, etc. even as an additional name because they would automatically be parsed and converted internally anyways when searching using the spelled out version? What happens if a community exclusively uses the spelled out name for First through at least Ninth on street signs, rather than 1st through 9th? Or how about cities that use both like in San Francisco, such as these for Third Street / 3rd Street: http://goo.gl/maps/rJLi9 http://goo.gl/maps/9uTZ5 and http://goo.gl/maps/kGuoT

Many style guides, in dealing with street names, say to spell out First through Ninth and leave 10th and above using numerals and letter suffixes. How should we deal with that here on Google Map Maker? What about international variants?

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[Flash]

Be warned, I've found that USPS will often use different names as it goes along the street; in other words one building gets one name and another gets something else; so they definitely are not a source to find out the official name.

Andrew will remember working with me on one road that was less than 10 blocks long, but we had to apply 8 names with each varying as to what portion it applied to due to it starting in one city, ending in another, the centre was unincorporated territory for which the county was responsible, those authorites each  had applied a different version of the name, USPS used different ones, and every street sign had a different version even when within the same authorities boundaries.

[Geoffrey Perez]

So let's just standardize the ordinals like we do the numbered highways, then. Another thing about some ordinals is how Navigation should say them out loud. Say one city says One-Oh-Fifth Street while another says One-Hundred-Fifth Street. It is of course somewhat ambiguous if all Google could see is 105th Street, though from that, the latter would be the "correct" term...

There might even be places that use Oneth instead of First (like Thirty-oneth), though I might be grasping at straws here. Or, oh jeez, the fractional roads.

1/4 Street = One-quarter Street or One-fourth Street?

Should we even get into the multitude of readings in other languages (think Japanese goroawase)? Thank goodness Japan isn't yet open to Map Maker yet. That would be horrendous.

Oh, I have a real-life example of a numbered road in a different language in Las Vegas, Nevada, United States: http://goo.gl/maps/bFTr8

The sign says "RUE 13 NO." Obviously, it came from French. Is it a truly French name, read as "Rue Treize Nord", or is it a hybrid name, read as "Rue Thirteen North"?

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Flash via General Map Maker <google-mapmaker+noreply-APn2wQcd...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Be warned, I've found that USPS will often use different names as it goes along the street; in other words one building gets one name and another gets something else; so they definitely are not a source to find out the official name.

Andrew will remember working with me on one road that was less than 10 blocks long, but we had to apply 8 names with each varying as to what portion it applied to due to it starting in one city, ending in another, the centre was unincorporated territory for which the county was responsible, those authorites each  had applied a different version of the name, USPS used different ones, and every street sign had a different version even when within the same authorities boundaries.

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[Steve Ruge]

I think you need to standardize based on what you see in the field. People driving using navigation are going to want to see what they hear. I also like the idea of referring to whatever the local agency has available.

[Kingston-Mapper]

In Ontario (Canada), my experience has been that a lot of numbered streets were originally entered as "1 St", "2 Ave", etc., incorrectly. At least in English-speaking regions of Ontario, from my experience the full spelling (First, Second, etc.) are used officially as well as on signs. I find that ordinal numbers are used when there is a large number of these streets, such as in New York.