Master/Slave Datastore, thanks for all your hard work

[Chris Ramsdale]

Hey App Engine Users,

Almost 4 years after launch, we’ve seen fantastic growth both in Google App Engine and the apps that run on it. And although the Master/Slave Datastore was a big part of our early success, it's time to announce the deprecation of the Master/Slave Datastore in favor of the High-Replication Datastore (HRD). HRD has provided us with higher availability and better, more predictable performance. Many upcoming features will be HRD-only and we strongly encourage you to migrate all your applications as soon as possible using the migration tools found in the Application Settings tab of the Administration Console. The deprecation period will follow the guidelines set in our terms of service. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact us at ms-datastore...@google.com.

Chris

Product Manager, Google App Engine

[Robert Kluin]

I think this is a really good idea. It will encourage people with
apps to move, and help further persuade new apps to not use
master-slave. I have not spoken to anyone who regretted the move to
high-replication.

Robert

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Google App Engine" group.
> To post to this group, send email to google-a...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> google-appengi...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en.

[Chris Ramsdale]

Great to hear, Robert. I'm really looking forward to helping others make the move as well.

-- Chris

[Andrei]

3 years from now?

On Apr 4, 4:42 pm, Chris Ramsdale <cramsd...@google.com> wrote:
> *Hey App Engine Users,*
> *
>
> Almost 4 years after
> launch<http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/developers-start-your-engines....>,

> we’ve seen fantastic growth both in Google App Engine and the apps that run
> on it. And although the Master/Slave Datastore was a big part of our early
> success, it's time to announce the deprecation of the Master/Slave
> Datastore in favor of the High-Replication Datastore (HRD). HRD has
> provided us with higher availability and better, more predictable

> performance<http://googleappengine.blogspot.com/2012/01/happy-birthday-high-repli...>

> . Many upcoming features will be HRD-only and we strongly encourage you to
> migrate all your applications as soon as possible using the migration

> tools<https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/adminconsole/migration>

> found
> in the Application Settings tab of the Administration Console. The
> deprecation period will follow the guidelines set in our terms of

> service<https://developers.google.com/appengine/terms#Deprecation>.

> If you have any questions or concerns, please contact us at

> ms-datastore-deprecat...@google.com.*
> *
> *
> *Chris*
> *
> *
> *Product Manager, Google App Engine*

[andrew]

I've seen a number of "HRD - not impressed" posts in this and other groups.

Are the customer benefits compelling?
....doesn't matter any more as the writing is on the wall...

We can't migrate until the migration tools support migration of all data from all name spaces.
Repeated posts asking about that have lead to...........silence.....

[Andrei]

will gae last 3 years?
google wave, google buzz, ... gae?

[Alfred Fuller]

We've already lasted 4 years, which makes us an outlier in your list :-).

[Ray]

No one regret moving to HRD not because its great, instead its the M/S sucked too bad lately. 30 minutes download evey week is a disaster for 

any kind of app hosting on it.

At the mean time, HRD still isn't flawless.  I am still having around 1% percentage of datastore timeout from any kind of datastore accesses like a simple get_wih_id().  It is slower than M/S and cost more (the /G cost is now the same since Google raised the price for M/S too, but the slower respond still cost more on instance number)

The most stinky part is how Google advertise it as a 100% up time service when it is generating more exceptions than most shared MySQL hosting outside.  I know I know, its about scalability.  But how many apps are having hundreds or thousands of DB access every second that can benefit from its scalability which can compensate the constant flaw?  

On Thursday, April 5, 2012 4:46:57 AM UTC+8, Robert Kluin wrote:

I think this is a really good idea.  It will encourage people with
apps to move, and help further persuade new apps to not use
master-slave.  I have not spoken to anyone who regretted the move to
high-replication.

Robert

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 15:42, Chris Ramsdale <cram...@google.com> wrote:
> Hey App Engine Users,
>
> Almost 4 years after launch, we’ve seen fantastic growth both in Google App
> Engine and the apps that run on it. And although the Master/Slave Datastore
> was a big part of our early success, it's time to announce the deprecation
> of the Master/Slave Datastore in favor of the High-Replication Datastore
> (HRD). HRD has provided us with higher availability and better, more
> predictable performance. Many upcoming features will be HRD-only and we
> strongly encourage you to migrate all your applications as soon as possible
> using the migration tools found in the Application Settings tab of the
> Administration Console. The deprecation period will follow the guidelines
> set in our terms of service. If you have any questions or concerns, please

> contact us at ms-datastore-deprecation@google.com.

>
> Chris
>
> Product Manager, Google App Engine
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Google App Engine" group.

> To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com.

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> google-appengine+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Andrei]

Why don't you move it for me, I do not mind
When I started only MS option was available
It's your problem to move my data now

[stevep]

Ray wrote: " I am still having around 1% percentage of datastore

timeout from any kind of datastore accesses like a simple
get_wih_id()."

I have not seen this. If you and others are seeing 1% get_by_id()s
failing due to timeouts, it needs to be diagnosed by G. stat. Be sure
to report it.

If it is a common issue, and remains so with G. acknowledging its part
and parcel of their PaaS, then it really is time to move to AWS for
me.

-stevep

On Apr 5, 6:26 pm, Ray <windz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No one regret moving to HRD not because its great, instead its the M/S
> sucked too bad lately. 30 minutes download evey week is a disaster for
> any kind of app hosting on it.
>
> At the mean time, HRD still isn't flawless.  I am still having around 1%
> percentage of datastore timeout from any kind of datastore accesses like a
> simple get_wih_id().  It is slower than M/S and cost more (the /G cost is
> now the same since Google raised the price for M/S too, but the slower
> respond still cost more on instance number)
>
> The most stinky part is how Google advertise it as a 100% up time service
> when it is generating more exceptions than most shared MySQL hosting
> outside.  I know I know, its about scalability.  But how many apps are
> having hundreds or thousands of DB access every second that can benefit
> from its scalability which can compensate the constant flaw?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, April 5, 2012 4:46:57 AM UTC+8, Robert Kluin wrote:
>
> > I think this is a really good idea.  It will encourage people with
> > apps to move, and help further persuade new apps to not use
> > master-slave.  I have not spoken to anyone who regretted the move to
> > high-replication.
>
> > Robert
>

> > On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 15:42, Chris Ramsdale <cramsd...@google.com> wrote:
> > > Hey App Engine Users,
>
> > > Almost 4 years after launch, we’ve seen fantastic growth both in Google
> > App
> > > Engine and the apps that run on it. And although the Master/Slave
> > Datastore
> > > was a big part of our early success, it's time to announce the
> > deprecation
> > > of the Master/Slave Datastore in favor of the High-Replication Datastore
> > > (HRD). HRD has provided us with higher availability and better, more
> > > predictable performance. Many upcoming features will be HRD-only and we
> > > strongly encourage you to migrate all your applications as soon as
> > possible
> > > using the migration tools found in the Application Settings tab of the
> > > Administration Console. The deprecation period will follow the guidelines
> > > set in our terms of service. If you have any questions or concerns,
> > please

> > > contact us at ms-datastore-deprecat...@google.com.

>
> > > Chris
>
> > > Product Manager, Google App Engine
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > > "Google App Engine" group.

> > > To post to this group, send email to google-a...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > > google-appengi...@googlegroups.com.

[Ray]

AppEngine has had some pretty bad days recently.  I was lucky enough to capture two dashboard with just a few hours apart which shows how bad the HR datastore could be:

The first two image show the hourly "Avg Latency" of the requests, the first one was the data around 8 hours ago, the other one was a few hours back.  Normally the requests finish in a few hundreds ms, which are mostly get by key datastore access.  When HR datastore misbehave, there are many deadline exceeded error right on db access and even if they complete, they become very slow. (from you chart you can see 3s to 9s latency in average).  The two time periods are having similar traffic and no special code was running to cause the problem.

There were no code change, no abnormal status on the status page.  They are typical (although this one is worst than normal in terms of error percentage) HR performance for me, HR datastore has constant errors, just not worst than M/S.  

The third image shows how unstable HR datastore could be. Those errors are mostly caused by timeout on db access.

> > > To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com.

> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > > google-appengine+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Ray]

The images are here: (Google Groups had problem on file attachment apparently)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/182081/photo1.png

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/182081/photo2.png

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/182081/photo3.png

[stevep]

Wow, very sorry to see that. The last few weeks of threads have been
increasingly worrisome. I read a very candid interview with Netflix
CIO recently about AWS. He noted that AWS is always behind feature-
wise because they never want to screw things up for their production
users. My sense is that G. intends to gain share by an ever-increasing
feature set, and the tradeoff is situations like these. Swords are
always double-sided it seems. -stevep

On Apr 6, 7:49 pm, Ray <windz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The images are here: (Google Groups had problem on file attachment
> apparently)
>

> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/182081/photo1.pnghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/182081/photo2.pnghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/182081/photo3.png

> >> google-a...@googlegroups.com.

> >> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >> > > > google-appengi...@googlegroups.com.

[samleh...@yahoo.co.uk]

I really hope it would be possible to migrate to HRD without changing appip. Due SSL issues I have been using any straight appspot appid related links. Therefore I don't want to change appid or register domain and lose SSL.

Thanks.

- Sami Lehtinen

[Chris Ramsdale]

Andrew,

Regarding the migration of all data from all namespaces (as well as other updates to the migration tools), we're actively working on these changes. The initial HRD migration tools was the first iteration and Blobstore migration was the next. And now that we've announced the deprecation of M/S, we'll be doing even more to help folks migrate their applications over.

In terms of "HRD - not impressed", are there specific issues that you've had with your application(s)?

-- Chris

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/google-appengine/-/3N0GdxJvHAsJ.

[Chris Ramsdale]

Andrei,

Have you tried using the HRD migration tool? Are there specific problems that you had that prevented you from using this utility?

-- Chris

[Chris Ramsdale]

Ray,

Very interesting data, indeed. Although, it's tough to make any suggestions as to what was going on without any other context. If you'd like, we can take a look at your app to see if there is something out of the ordinary that would lead to the latency numbers that you're reporting.

-- Chris

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/google-appengine/-/BwVDunKB5hsJ.

To post to this group, send email to google-a...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengi...@googlegroups.com.

[Chris Ramsdale]

There are no concerns regarding the longevity of Google App Engine. All growth curves (# of active apps, # of developers, overall revenue) are healthy and the product has the backing support of Google as a whole. 

Coming out of Beta last year was the first step, and since then we've continued to grow the team and add highly requested features such as SSL and Python 2.7. This is only the beginning and we're all looking forward to what we can do over the next year, three years, and ten years.

-- Chris

Product Manager, Google App Engine

[Andrei]

Thanks Chris
Why do i need to know how you store my data, in HDR MS or anything
else
I want to use API - that's it
You are asking me to move my data from one type of db to another
That sound like sysadmin job, which is yours

[Brandon Wirtz]

GAE is a PaaS not a IaaS. Your comment implies you are treating GAE as the
latter not the former. As long as that is your mindset you will always be
very sad, and unhappy with the service and how your software performs on it.

[andrew]

Hi Chris,

Migrating all data from all namespaces (I.e. a transparent migration of all data that is then accessed by same app via same API, which is what Andrei is asking for I think) is must for us migrate.....so just waiting for that.

I tend to agree with Andrei, and consider PaaS as including IaaS, and expect google to manage details of data below the Data store API...

Comment about HRD was a reference to posts from other who have already migrated.

Andrew

[Alfred Fuller]

Migrating all data is supported already (unless I am missing something). Does it say otherwise somewhere?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/google-appengine/-/Q2LDR4erhcsJ.

[Andrei]

Yes, I've been unhappy with GAE for a year now (started GAE in 2009)
But it's a joy for me to work on aws

[Barry Hunter]

On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 12:12 AM, Andrei <gml...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, I've been unhappy with GAE for a year now (started GAE in 2009)
> But it's a joy for me to work on aws

Well go use it then!

If you found a platform that works for you, then great, use it.

Its important to realise a particular platform isn't going to suit everyone.

Concentrate your efforts where you are most productive, you will be
happier for it.

It's always painful, when you find something isnt what you expected it
to be - and it doesnt live up to your expectations.
But rather than dwell on that, move on quickly; and chalk it up to experience.

[vlad]

Ray, with graphs like these maybe it is time to check into SLA if you are a paying customer.

[Andrei]

Thanks
I have app developed in 2009 that is on MS
I really want a manager, may be Chris, to explain why in GAE
environment I need to
move manually my data from one of their own db type to another
Is that too much to ask

[Andrei]

https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine

What Is Google App Engine?
Google App Engine lets you run web applications on Google's
infrastructure. App Engine applications are easy to build, easy to
maintain, and easy to scale as your traffic and data storage needs
grow. With App Engine, there are no servers to maintain: You just
upload your application, and it's ready to serve your users.

I guess it's not easy to maintain and it's not "just upload your
application"

And here
https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/java/gettingstarted/usingdatastore
It says you can still use MS, it does not say Google will delete MS
data after 3 years