GolfML first contact

[Jean-Jacques MONOT]

Hello,

I have just discovered GolfML, and I find this initiative very interesting.

For a few weeks, I have been analyzing for golfer friends, the possibility to get up to date map courses and information on their android smartphone or Wince GPS.

Thus, I have been using OSM database and golf proposed features to identify and map golf courses. With the help of Maperitive application, I have produced some accurate maps, and you can find here some samples : https://sites.google.com/site/maps4locus/home/golf

The idea in parallel is to develop an app (Android and Wince) that would be able to use these maps, and I was also wondering to have file format to exchange scoring with web site or PC app.

I was wondering about developping myself that format when I discovered GolfML !

Having looked to the GolfML web site, and installed application, I have some questions :

1. in the writer, no way to import .xml examples : each time I get error, but creation and re opening works

2. in the download part, there are some images of courses maps (svg colors sample.png).... but I do not find any way to produce such maps in the writer ????

3. no way also to define fairways or greens with GPS points, like I can do in OSM with ways .... 

Other questions will arrive ;-) ....

Best regards.

JJ MONOT

[minesadorada]

Hi Jean-Jacques,

re: you import problems with golfmlwriter, I am the developer of the application.  Can you make available the xml files that fail, so that I can reproduce the error you reported?

CourseWriter does not deal with SVG files and yardage books, as the help page clearly states.  It is aimed at making simple scorecards.

:G

[Jean-Jacques MONOT]

The files that fails are the one delivered with the app ! As indicated the files that i generate myself are ok.

I am using a dell pc w7 64 bits.

Concerning map, i do not want svg or png but vector description as in osm. But the trouble is much more than your app but the xml definition that nit have this possibility. It  is  pity because golf players want also map as they have gps in their smartphones.

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[minesadorada]

On Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:13:30 AM UTC+1, Jean-Jacques MONOT wrote:

The files that fails are the one delivered with the app ! As indicated the files that i generate myself are ok.

Have you downloaded the Reader application?  This uses different code to read GolfML files.  If it reads the files OK then I know that GolfmlCourseWriter is at fault.

Have you downloaded the tenerife courses zip file?  If they load correctly, then I know that the xml files included with the app are at fault.

For your general golfml questions, Pierre is the person to respond.  I'm just a Pascal developer.

:G 

[Jean-Jacques MONOT]

concerning apps :

- reader is OK (with tenerife samples files)

- writer is not OK (with same tenerif samples files) :

2012/6/24 minesadorada <torr...@gmail.com>

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[Jean-Jacques MONOT]

Yes I would like to have an answer from Pierre about extension of XML scheme .... plus : is there a web site to store and share all courses ?

2012/6/24 minesadorada <torr...@gmail.com>

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[minesadorada]

Oh.. that's embarassing :)

I'll be on it in a few days - real life calls first...

:G

On Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:48:07 PM UTC+1, Jean-Jacques MONOT wrote:

concerning apps :

- reader is OK (with tenerife samples files)

- writer is not OK (with same tenerif samples files) :

2012/6/24 minesadorada <torr...@gmail.com>

On Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:13:30 AM UTC+1, Jean-Jacques MONOT wrote:

The files that fails are the one delivered with the app ! As indicated the files that i generate myself are ok.

Have you downloaded the Reader application?  This uses different code to read GolfML files.  If it reads the files OK then I know that GolfmlCourseWriter is at fault.

Have you downloaded the tenerife courses zip file?  If they load correctly, then I know that the xml files included with the app are at fault.

For your general golfml questions, Pierre is the person to respond.  I'm just a Pascal developer.

:G 

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[Pierre Mareschal]

Hello there,

Just a quick reply to all your mails sent lately.

Part 1: GolfML

The core of GolfML is that schema that allow golfer to exchange 2 types of data:

 - Golf course data at large, and that includes golf course information like address, phone, picture, but also details about golf courses like tee distances, and GPS coordinate of fairways, greens, traps, and physical facilities.

 - Golfer data at large, and that includes: Golf score, golfer's bag (clubs), golfer stats, etc. (I'm now busy extending this to also include practice data.)

Both are, of course, closely linked or related.

That's the core of the golfml specification.

Now, from these specification, you can do what you need/want. The goal is to provide a common language to exchange data between application and/or web sites.

Of course, not everybody will use all features included in golfml.

Part 2: Openstreetmap and Related Efforts

My personal graal is to have an app that records golf score either manually (traditional score entry) or what is usually called a "location based score card", where the golfer enters successive location of the ball on the course (with some data such as the type of ground or the qualification of the shot, or other data).

There are already apps that to that, but none uses golfml, in spite of a small effort I made to convince them of the benefit to use golfml for data interchange.

Example of applications are: The oldest, and yet to be matched: mobilegolfscorer (win on pocket computer, I used it on a Garmin iQue M5 in 2006!),  Viewti GPS, or GolfShot (I'm sure you can list a few more). As a sad result, all these applications use a proprietary, non-interchangeable data format for golf courses and data collection and storage.

I DO NOT KNOW AND I WOULD BE INTERESTED TO KNOW how these companies managed to get golf course information? Did they buy data? From who? When? How up-to-date are those data? How much does it cost? Of do they build those data on demand? In the later case, are they willing to share/sell/give those data to the community?

Of course, we all dream about a "central repository" where we could store all our golfing data and use them for free, but this repository does not currently exists.

Again, golfml's purpose is not the repository itself, but rather the data format used to communicate with it.

Soooo, at one point in time, since there is a collaborative effort around that openstreetmap initiative, I was wondering whether openstreetmap (OSM) could not become that "central repository" of golf courses. OSM would first focus on geographical data (course coordinate, including tee boxes, fairways, greens, and hazards, etc.) but we all feel there is another set of data needed, directly related to golf: Pars, handicap rating, etc. OSM offers some facility to add those meta data (layers), and preliminary effort has been undertaken for golf as mentioned in a previous mail (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Golf_course). But no commitment, or dedicated effort has been done to extend OSM to include golf course (meta-)data.

(note: Data will remain useless unless we provide a golf scoring/gps app together with it.)

Inside golfml, there is a possibility to add/include geographic coordinate for simple points such as tee boxes or complex surfaces like fairways, or greens. Examples, such as the SVG drawings are NOT part of the golfml standard, but were provided to illustrate the usefulness of golfml and the ease of (xsl) transformation to go from golfml to printable yardage books.

Transformation or links to OSM should be straightforward for geographic data, and not too difficult for data supported by OSM (tee scores). Golfml's geographic data is loosely based on Google/Keyhole KML format. Again, as mentioned, initiative like Maps4Locus (https://sites.google.com/site/maps4locus/) may help merge both.

What I'd love to have (personal):

1. A free, collaborative, central repository of golf course GPS coordinates (I mean coordinates of tee boxes, green centers, etc., not just the coordinate of the club house.)

2. A GPS enabled mobile device app that knows which course (and hole) I am currently playing and provides me with hole details such as distances to green and hazards, and scoring information (par, handicap index, etc.). Ideally, that app should allow me to record my scorecard both manually, and by entering successive golf ball positions on the course.

We are getting there, but in proprietary, closed, formats. I'd love to be able, at least, to extract my golfing data for personal performance analysis. (Even if some apps already do that.) I also would like to be able to enter golf course data in an app when it is not available. Golfml is the Esperanto to allow all these apps to communicate. That also includes numerous websites that allow you to record round scores, calculate your handicap (according to the local rules in your area), etc. All these web site again to use proprietary formats for data exchange. I once talked to oobgolf.com, where they had at least a look at golfml, but they found it too generic, to complex for their usage.

3. Next Steps

1. Decide that OSM is the way to go to store golf course data, propose and extend OSM to include all golf-related data (including scorecards, etc.)

1b. Build 2 way bridges between OSM and GolfML (via Maps4Locus?).

2. Keep using GolfML for golfer data (bags, scorecards, stats, and practice records...) and build apps around it (Thank you Gordon.) Invite/encourage websites to use golfml to exchange data with golfers and apps (marketing). In the meantime, invite to use OSM/Golf data for golf course "definitions".

OK, enough for today. It isn't raining today. Time to go golfing.

Best regards,

Pierre

PS: Golfml does not "belong" to anybody. It belong to us all. So if you have suggestions, simplifications, please feel free to suggest improvements.

The Golf Markup Language

[Jean-Jacques MONOT]

Hello  Pierre,

Thank you for your long and constructive response ! 

I have a few remarks 

1. GolfML

I am not so familiar with XML, and that's why I did not see any way to describe fairways, holes, etc ... with GPS points ... but  looking deeper in your reference data, I see that it is possible.

To help me, I would like to get :
- a .xsd file describing the full structure of GolfML : I use a software framework (Windev) in which I can manipulate easily such elements but I need the full structure
- in the google site, the structure is well described : http://code.google.com/p/golfml/wiki/Egolfml, .... but how do you generate this description ? manually ? or using an XML edition tool ?

By the way, I am looking for an XML editor, free of course .... could you advise me one ?

2. OSM

The philosophy of OSM is to provide a database for cartographic elements. Thus, OSM may not accept to  "extend to include all golf-related data (including scorecards, etc.)" that are not really physical elements, and may overload the server ..... In OSM, you should store only elements that are really visible in the field (scorecards are not  .... ) : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice. 

But we can keep on working and thinking about the best cooperation between OSM and GolfML, as OSM is the best way I think to have geographical identification of courses. Maybe we could check and then propose to put the proposed features for Golf to voting .... and see how we could present/modify GolfML in order to have OSM golf tags as sub-set of GolfML ? 

Best regards.

JJ MONOT

2012/6/25 Pierre Mareschal <golf.marku...@gmail.com>

[Pierre Mareschal]

Hi Jean-Jacques, and the others.

1. GolfML

I am not so familiar with XML, and that's why I did not see any way to describe fairways, holes, etc ... with GPS points ... but  looking deeper in your reference data, I see that it is possible.

To help me, I would like to get :
- a .xsd file describing the full structure of GolfML : I use a software framework (Windev) in which I can manipulate easily such elements but I need the full structure
- in the google site, the structure is well described : http://code.google.com/p/golfml/wiki/Egolfml, .... but how do you generate this description ? manually ? or using an XML edition tool ?

By the way, I am looking for an XML editor, free of course .... could you advise me one ?

You can download the XSD and a few XML sample files that include GPS coordinates in the "source" area on the site.

To edit XML, I use Oxygen XML on Mac(OSX). (I'm a Mac guy.) It isn't free, but I like it, got use to it, and use it for all XML/XSL processing.

To generate the documentation, I use XSDDOC, a free Java tool. I prefer to write in a single document, add comments to the code directly and then let xsddoc generate the doc.

I modified xsddoc a bit to generate google wiki files (I basically modified the linking mechanism). I then upload wiki generated files directly through the project  SVN google code repository.

(BTW: Oxygen XML contains a SVN GUI front end that integrates with their editors.)

I have a ant file and shell scripts to generate docs, package samples, etc. Let me know if you want it. I will not put it on the golfml repository because they're not related to golfml.

2. OSM

The philosophy of OSM is to provide a database for cartographic elements. Thus, OSM may not accept to  "extend to include all golf-related data (including scorecards, etc.)" that are not really physical elements, and may overload the server ..... In OSM, you should store only elements that are really visible in the field (scorecards are not  .... ) : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice. 

But we can keep on working and thinking about the best cooperation between OSM and GolfML, as OSM is the best way I think to have geographical identification of courses. Maybe we could check and then propose to put the proposed features for Golf to voting .... and see how we could present/modify GolfML in order to have OSM golf tags as sub-set of GolfML ? 

I definitively have to have a closer look at OSM. I understood they had some "layer" mechanism.

The existing effort around golf hasn't been officially approved I think. We should test it, amend it if necessary, and get it to an approved status.

Some people are already using it as it is (Maps4Locus).

I don't think we have time/energy to start a new web site for golfml. We should join an existing one. Golfml is not about the "data" (=content), it is about the "format" (exchange format).

A few years back, I made a targeted mail to a lot of golfing sites. It attracted quite a few people to golfml (I had a big peak in google analytics). I had serious contact with three of them, but I couldn't carry the effort. So I think that a good start is to do this again.

It is sad to see that there are a lot of individual efforts. (Ask me if you want a list, but basically google "golf gps app" to get a list!) They all come up with some "course editor", smartphone app, community web site, etc. Individually, they all think they have a valuable asset, their data is goldmine, they do not want to share it, but none of that is true. The value of their asset only comes from the time they spent in developing it (and that they have to reimburse). They sell a few hundred apps at best and that's it. I'm not sure anyone of them makes a living out of it. May be some american apps, with a larger public, and a reasonable price (20+ US$). You can't make money with a golfing gps app at $1. (Unless you're Angry Golfer and swing balls at constructions that collapse.)

What I'd like to do it remove the golf course mapping/golf course info from their equation, to offer a way to exchange it.

I do not believe in a "central repository". Everyone will keep his repository closed. But I believe in exchange between those repositories, and in the ability for one app to get course mapping information from more than one source.

Actually, thinking loud, I think that a useful web site would be a site when people would search for a course, and then be able to download the information for that course (in golfml or alternate format). But the web site does not need to contain the information (at most "cache" it.) Rather, the web site should be able to connect to existing golfing sites, get the information from one of them, and transform it into golfml format (or another one). We are looking at a kind of "partnership" web site, where companies would interface their search engine to ours. I'm thinking about a google search site focussed on golf.

Note that the domain name opengolfmap.com, so some people may think about it...

Pierre

[Jean-Jacques MONOT]

Hello Pierre,

Some remark  :

"The existing effort around golf hasn't been officially approved I think. We should test it, amend it if necessary, and get it to an approved status.

Some people are already using it as it is (Maps4Locus)."

-> sure ! "some people" : it's me who builded Maps4Locus web site.

Concerning OSM, I have not enough time nor energy to modify and propose golf features to voting, but I would support this initiative.

By the way, I would like introduce a new way that is missing, I think :

"golf =practice" ... 

By the way, are you french ? Pierre Mareschal sounds french .... 

Best regards.

JJ MONOT

2012/6/26 Pierre Mareschal <golf.marku...@gmail.com>

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[very whys]

Hi,

i have downloaded the golfml writer and when i go to create the golfml file after entering course data i am getting the following error:

An error has occurred that is not your fault.

Unable to create new golfml file

"c:\golfmlcoursewriter\golfclub.xml"

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks,

Colin