Deprecate Summary in V3.6

[Mark Liversedge]

Now the overview chart is configurable and can run expressions, the summary chart is no longer required.

Since it is a real maintenance headache and UX is web-based and fugly I am going to deprecate it for v3.6.

If you have a good reason to keep it, let me know here :)

Thanks

Mark

[Alan Thomas]

Hey Mark,

Just to give some feedback on how I use the Summary chart.

The Summary view is probably the view I use most for an at-a-glance view of Activities (and in Trends). The first screen I'll look at after a workout is Summary. And then, if I think I've smashed it, I'll go down to Athlete Bests in Trends to see if I've beaten a record.

The columns at the top work for me in that it categorises like metrics together. It feels ordered and structured. I'd probably like to categorise the Metrics column more, but it works for me as is. I'm used to my ordering.

For me that top area is a functional list of data with no bloat - there are lots of ways of getting visuals in GC, but a screen of raw data I find useful and simple and fast.

The top of Summary also has quite a bit space around it - which for me means you can get a lot of data on there without it looking like it's crammed.

I use the 3.5 build, so am admittedly not able to make the most out of the Overview chart. I can see why it's been introduced though.

For me, I feel the Overview chart would look a bit overwhelming and take up more space if I tried to replicate the metrics data from Summary onto Overview due to data being in boxes. I have approx 50 metrics that I use in total on Summary for any one sport - more in Trends of course as it compiles them for all sports. I could make multiple Overviews (Max, Average, Metrics), but then I lose the one screen glance approach.

For Activities Summary I don't use the lower part of the Summary screen much (Power zones, W'bal zones, Heart rate zones, Intervals). I'm much more about the list of metrics at the top.

In Trends, the list of Athlete Bests is an area I use a lot. The list of Activities at the bottom less so, but it's nice now and again to look at how things compare all neatly lined up.

I don't know which area of Summary causes the maintenance headache - hearing how other people use it (or don't) might help to zero in on what area/s could be cut to lower maintenance. 

Anyway, hope that's useful!

Alan

[Mark Liversedge]

Hi Alan,

Yes, your feedback is useful. I think the Overview is a very different paradigm and for most cases is an improvement.

OTOH, I agree that sometimes its just the numbers that are important.

I really like the idea of creating something along the lines of a jupiter notebook or some other way of generating and working with tabular data aka a spreadsheet.

Will think on this- in the coaches interviews back in 2016 it was clear that they use Excel as a tool of choice for planning, its quick and flexible. I want to be able to support something like that in v3.7, but have no idea how !!

Thanks for taking the time to feedback your experience and opinions, it's much appreciated.

Mark

[Ale Martinez]

El sábado, 10 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 12:05:17 UTC-3, Mark Liversedge escribió:

Hi Alan,

Yes, your feedback is useful. I think the Overview is a very different paradigm and for most cases is an improvement.

OTOH, I agree that sometimes its just the numbers that are important.

I am also a numbers type (not to mention an old dog slow to learn new tricks) and I wonder, would it be possible to add a way to drill into additional numbers in Overview tiles without changing it’s essence?

For example, I like to track mileage on running shoes, the donut tile seems a natural choice, it’s simple and nice, but it show only percentages and I like to see the absolute values (km or mi in this case).

Zones tile is similar, it is simple and nice, but most of the time I ended in Summary just to see more complete info.

I really like the idea of creating something along the lines of a jupiter notebook or some other way of generating and working with tabular data aka a spreadsheet.

Will think on this- in the coaches interviews back in 2016 it was clear that they use Excel as a tool of choice for planning, its quick and flexible. I want to be able to support something like that in v3.7, but have no idea how !!

A gateway drug to ease the transition could be a preferred metrics tile to display them in a tabular, but better looking, way similar to Summary metrics.

[Mark Liversedge]

I think a data table tile would be fairly easy to write,  need to think about UX but the code would be trivial.

Maybe to aid transition we could default it to show the old summary metrics config....

Mark

[Paul Greenberg]

Mark:

I am a long time user but not super computer savvy in the 21st century sense (I was pretty good at FORTRAN on punch cards 40 years ago!).  

I pretty much echo Alan's comments on how I use the Summary page. No frills, just a data dump where I can see detailed results in a flash and figure out if I hit my goals. I use the Intervals below the big chart to figure out if I hit my intervals properly. W', pwr and HR charts don't get used too much, however. Attached what my Summary looks like for an interval workout. As Alan mentioned, lots of data density that may not fit in Overview.

And, I am not afraid to admit that I am pretty intimidated into trying to reproduce the Summary chart in Overview. 

Maybe someone can build a module to move the chart into a big box in Overview or some detailed instructions for novice programmers.

Paul Greenberg

[José Luis García Pallero]

Hello:

I totally agree with Alan and Paul: Summary tab is one of the utilities I use most often. It is for me the best way to get the best overview of a session, and it has also very valuable information such as the time in zones and its relation with W' bal. For me, the two screenshots Paul has sent contain a very valuable data in an easy to understand form. And all on a single tab! Also I use the summary tab in Trends section as I like to see the general values for a season or other time range. It's a pity that Summary it's removed.

[Valvero]

In the new version without a summary, how can we view all the laps with their corresponding associated data?

[Mark Liversedge]

In the performance plot you just select them all and the metrics are shown in the interval summary.

But I think the data table tile could be adapted to support data for intervals.

Will think on it.

Mark

[Ale Martinez]

El sábado, 10 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 05:44:31 UTC-3, Alan Thomas escribió:

In Trends, the list of Athlete Bests is an area I use a lot.

For this use case I think the new Trends Overview Bests Tile is a superior alternative, besides a better looking graphical representation (see https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/wiki/UG_ChartTypes_Trends#overview) it allows to quickly switch to the activity where the best was achieved in Activities View just clicking on the corresponding bar, analyze the context there including finding the specific segment using find intervals, and then go back using the top left navigation buttons.

[José Luis García Pallero]

El dom, 11 jul 2021 a las 20:36, Ale Martinez
(<amtri...@gmail.com>) escribió:

>
> El sábado, 10 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 05:44:31 UTC-3, Alan Thomas escribió:
>>
>> In Trends, the list of Athlete Bests is an area I use a lot.
>
> For this use case I think the new Trends Overview Bests Tile is a superior alternative, besides a better looking graphical representation (see https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/wiki/UG_ChartTypes_Trends#overview) it allows to quickly switch to the activity where the best was achieved in Activities View just clicking on the corresponding bar, analyze the context there including finding the specific segment using find intervals, and then go back using the top left navigation buttons.

One of the most useful things for me in the Summary tab of the Trends
view is the power profile information as numbers instead of graphical,
i.e., the best power values for different times. How can be configured
the Overview tab in order to see such information? Also, I think the
Summary tab shows more information in a more compact style than
Overview, as information such as Balance, Torque effectiveness, IF,
etc. needs only one text line, and in Overview a tile is needed, which
needs more space

>
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[Ale Martinez]

El domingo, 11 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 15:46:16 UTC-3, jgpa...@gmail.com escribió:

El dom, 11 jul 2021 a las 20:36, Ale Martinez
(<amtri...@gmail.com>) escribió:
>
> El sábado, 10 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 05:44:31 UTC-3, Alan Thomas escribió:
>>
>> In Trends, the list of Athlete Bests is an area I use a lot.
>
> For this use case I think the new Trends Overview Bests Tile is a superior alternative, besides a better looking graphical representation (see https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/wiki/UG_ChartTypes_Trends#overview) it allows to quickly switch to the activity where the best was achieved in Activities View just clicking on the corresponding bar, analyze the context there including finding the specific segment using find intervals, and then go back using the top left navigation buttons.

One of the most useful things for me in the Summary tab of the Trends
view is the power profile information as numbers instead of graphical,
i.e., the best power values for different times. How can be configured
the Overview tab in order to see such information?

For each metric configured in Bests just add a Bests tile in an Overview chart

 

Also, I think the
Summary tab shows more information in a more compact style than
Overview, as information such as Balance, Torque effectiveness, IF,
etc. needs only one text line, and in Overview a tile is needed, which
needs more space

Form this use use case I proposed to add a preferred metrics tile in a previous message in this same thread 

[Mark Liversedge]

I've added a data table tile and will code it up this week, at the least we can setup some examples in the default UI setup.

Mark

[Ale Martinez]

El sábado, 10 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 16:04:09 UTC-3, Ale Martinez escribió:

El sábado, 10 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 12:05:17 UTC-3, Mark Liversedge escribió:

Hi Alan,

Yes, your feedback is useful. I think the Overview is a very different paradigm and for most cases is an improvement.

OTOH, I agree that sometimes its just the numbers that are important.

I am also a numbers type (not to mention an old dog slow to learn new tricks) and I wonder, would it be possible to add a way to drill into additional numbers in Overview tiles without changing it’s essence?

For example, I like to track mileage on running shoes, the donut tile seems a natural choice, it’s simple and nice, but it show only percentages and I like to see the absolute values (km or mi in this case).

Zones tile is similar, it is simple and nice, but most of the time I ended in Summary just to see more complete info.

I have to reckon my previous attitude was kind of: Overview is nice, but for beginners... so I didn't use it too much.

Now Summary is gone, and past the mourning period, I started to really use Overview.

What I liked of Zones table summary is to have all the information in one screen: percentage and time in zones plus zone limits.

Trying to obtain the same information without Summary goes like this:

1. Zones tile in overview shows only zone (short) names and percentages (its nice, but limited)
2. To get time in zones I need to mentally backcalculate or got to the corresponding Histogram Chart
3. To remember my current zone limits I need to go Athlete config > Zones > Power/HR/Pace > Sport

Interestingly, Garmin Connect mobile designers have found a way to present all the information in one little chart putting the bars horizontally:

I have no idea how complex is to achieve this, but it looks nice and informative.

[José Luis García Pallero]

Also one of the more informative data present in the old Summary tab was the W'bal zones (see attached), where you could see not only the time spent in each zone, but the percentage of this time above critical power. This detail I think is provided I think only bu GC. Could be possible to reproduce such information with an overview tile?

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[Ale Martinez]

El lunes, 12 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 17:12:51 UTC-3, jgpa...@gmail.com escribió:

Also one of the more informative data present in the old Summary tab was the W'bal zones (see attached), where you could see not only the time spent in each zone, but the percentage of this time above critical power. This detail I think is provided I think only bu GC. Could be possible to reproduce such information with an overview tile?

Likely not at a glance, but hover and click over the bars could be an intuitive way to access more detailed information.

[Ale Martinez]

I think both alternatives I commented for Zones likely involve lot of work on graphical design and coding, which likely is not realistic for v3.6

OTOH, looking at the code, we still have a summarize method to generate the HTML for each Zone table (Power/HR/Pace/W'bal) which could be used to present the detailed information when you click on the corresponding Zones tile, similar to Interval Summary.

Perhaps this could be a reasonable compromise to preserve the modern look and feel, but still allowing easy access to the complete information.

[Mark Liversedge]

Nah, I'll fix it properly. We can delay release, no one is clamouring for it ! :)

Mark

[José Luis García Pallero]

El mar, 13 jul 2021 a las 17:04, Mark Liversedge
(<liver...@gmail.com>) escribió:

>
> Nah, I'll fix it properly. We can delay release, no one is clamouring for it ! :)

Is it possible to have installed in Linux both the 3.6 June, and 3.6
July pre releases or could cause any problem in .goldencheetah/
folder?

>
> Mark
>
> On Tuesday, 13 July 2021 at 15:34:46 UTC+1 Ale Martinez wrote:
>>
>> I think both alternatives I commented for Zones likely involve lot of work on graphical design and coding, which likely is not realistic for v3.6
>>
>> OTOH, looking at the code, we still have a summarize method to generate the HTML for each Zone table (Power/HR/Pace/W'bal) which could be used to present the detailed information when you click on the corresponding Zones tile, similar to Interval Summary.
>>
>> Perhaps this could be a reasonable compromise to preserve the modern look and feel, but still allowing easy access to the complete information.
>

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[Ale Martinez]

El martes, 13 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 12:04:07 UTC-3, Mark Liversedge escribió:

Nah, I'll fix it properly. We can delay release, no one is clamouring for it ! :)

Excellent! Let me know if I can help. 

[Ale Martinez]

El martes, 13 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 12:15:54 UTC-3, jgpa...@gmail.com escribió:

El mar, 13 jul 2021 a las 17:04, Mark Liversedge
(<liver...@gmail.com>) escribió:
>
> Nah, I'll fix it properly. We can delay release, no one is clamouring for it ! :)

Is it possible to have installed in Linux both the 3.6 June, and 3.6
July pre releases or could cause any problem in .goldencheetah/
folder?

There should be no problems, AFAIK.

[Manuel Zeller]

Hi,

btw, where can I download the Summary Chart?

I have deleted it and want to have it back?

Greets

[Ale Martinez]

El viernes, 16 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 17:53:55 UTC-3, manuel...@gmail.com escribió:

Hi,

btw, where can I download the Summary Chart?

Summary is a fixed built in chart, it cannot be uploaded or downloaded.

 

I have deleted it and want to have it back?

 It can be added as explained in https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/wiki/UG_Side-Bar_Activities-view for v3.6dev2106, it is not available anymore in v3.6dev2107 for the reasons discussed in this thread.

[Manuel Zeller]

OK, so it is already removed in the latest snapshot built, right?

I tried to import the chart from the january dev build but I got an error message "Unable to process chart file. Bad chart type (14)."

:-(

[Inti Loaiza]

Hi,

Sorry but i don't understand the reason to remove summary charts. During years I saw many people asking to reproduce summary charts on WKO application, specially report with top 10 MMP at 5', 10', 20' etc.  After a hard ride I love look that chart at trends section with my bold MMP. Also I love summary chart at activities section in numbers. Work, maximum HR. compare intervals, etc.

Why remove your better chats so far.. What's next, Intervals??. Two things your competitor cannot match

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 20 July 2021 at 03:46:51 UTC+1 Inti Loaiza wrote:

Hi,

Sorry but i don't understand the reason to remove summary charts.

It is unmaintainable, ugly and largely replaced by the overview.

Mark

[tomaz....@gmail.com]

Hi Mark,

I can perfectly understand your argument regarding "high maintenance" from development perspective. 

But from user perspective I still miss the summary chart in activities and trends. I think it is extremely useful - it provide bunch of information in a very clear way. I hope there will be a " spreadsheet" chart available to replace the summary chart. 

Just my 2 cents,

           Tomaz

[José Luis García Pallero]

El mar, 20 jul 2021 a las 10:39, tomaz....@gmail.com
(<tomaz....@gmail.com>) escribió:

>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I can perfectly understand your argument regarding "high maintenance" from development perspective.
> But from user perspective I still miss the summary chart in activities and trends. I think it is extremely useful - it provide bunch of information in a very clear way. I hope there will be a " spreadsheet" chart available to replace the summary chart.

I agree. From development perspective maintaining is a key task. But
from aesthetics... well, it is totally personal... from my point of
view Summary chart is not ugly, but almost perfect. I find ugly for
example the new Overview as the tiles waste lot of space and I prefer
simple text information instead of colours. I think it would be nice
to create tiles containing "Totals", "Averages", "Maximumns",
"Metrics"..., i.e., replicate the old Summary (in single ride and
trends) tab via tiles in Overview.

>
> Just my 2 cents,
> Tomaz
>
> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:22:27 AM UTC+2 Mark Liversedge wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday, 20 July 2021 at 03:46:51 UTC+1 Inti Loaiza wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Sorry but i don't understand the reason to remove summary charts.
>>
>>
>> It is unmaintainable, ugly and largely replaced by the overview.
>>
>> Mark
>

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[bob.d...@gmail.com]

Overview does not replace the activities summary tab. It does not have a view to show an athlete's lap (interval) data in a clean table.

[Mark Liversedge]

We may add that, interval data can be viewed in the interval sidebar anyway.

[Mark Liversedge]

The feature list is being discussed here, to uplift overview:

https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/issues/3910

So far we have a table display on trends and activity view that can display pretty much what anyone would want (it uses the data filter expressions)

We need to add a way to access intervals data to the expression language then that will be easy to display.

Here is the old "Totals" section of the ride summary as an overview tile:

And here is a filtered list of rides that were performance tests with the 30 min peak power, amongst other details:

Mark

[José Luis García Pallero]

It looks very nice, Mark. Thank you for the time spent adding this feature. Will be possible to add in the same way as Total the setions Averages, Maximums, etc. (for an activity and trends)? And the Athlete Bests in trends?

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[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 27 July 2021 at 22:03:56 UTC+1 jgpa...@gmail.com wrote:

It looks very nice, Mark. Thank you for the time spent adding this feature. Will be possible to add in the same way as Total the setions Averages, Maximums, etc. (for an activity and trends)? And the Athlete Bests in trends?

Because it uses the expression language you can display any data the expression language can get, so yes.

More interestingly, you can now make new calculations and filter, which has never been possible before.

Mark

[tomaz....@gmail.com]

Mark thank you very much for your effort - it looks great.

 I assume that the user will be able to add or modify similar "list fields" as CP/FTP Tests in your template trends Overview. 

Will be such type of field available also for activities Overview - creating list of intervals for example ?

Thanks,

      Tomaz

 

[Mark Liversedge]

On Wednesday, 28 July 2021 at 06:44:27 UTC+1 tomaz....@gmail.com wrote:

Mark thank you very much for your effort - it looks great.

 I assume that the user will be able to add or modify similar "list fields" as CP/FTP Tests in your template trends Overview. 

Will be such type of field available also for activities Overview - creating list of intervals for example ?

Yeah, thats why I said "We need to add a way to access intervals data to the expression language then that will be easy to display." :)

[Mark Liversedge]

We've been working away to improve overview as part of the feedback here, adding summary tiles of data tables and also now you can add user charts too.

I must confess I was a little irritated by the feedback about losing the ride summary, but now most of it is back in there I love it.

So as they say; listen to users- one voice might be wrong, but never a chorus.

We will be adding intervals and some other goodies too, expect a dev release sometime before the end of August.

Mark

[TJDunnigan]

Thank you, Mark and the others working on this. I did not speak-up, but I did miss the Summary data (but not the presentation of it).

This updated overview looks terrific.

[Hwa Runner]

Mark, this looks fantastic. Thanks a lot for your effort.

I'm looking forward to using the new overview.

[Paul Greenberg]

Thanks for doing this!

I think I can speak for many in saying that you, Ale, and the rest of the GC team are the best! We really appreciate your time and effort to make GC the software of choice for the detailed and sophisticated analysis of athletic performance.

-Paul

[José Luis García Pallero]

It looks great! Thank you for your effort, Mark

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[Ale Martinez]

Awesome Mark, great job! Besides nice Overview is very-very powerful and flexible now, congrats!

Legacy options for the Data Table are very handy, thanks!

[Valvero]

Great job Mark!! 

You have achieved a very powerful overview. How can we download it?

[bob.d...@gmail.com]

Looks nice. Thanks for all that you do. Can't wait to download the dev release.

[Derek Clegg]

is there a tutorial on how to create these tiles?

looks great, thanks for the hard dev work

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 9 August 2021 at 20:49:56 UTC+1 derekc...@gmail.com wrote:

is there a tutorial on how to create these tiles?

We need to do a couple of tutorials, obvously overview but also user charts. I think we should also create some examples so folks can play and adapt them.

Will do this as part of the v3.6 release process.

Mark

[Jérôme launay]

Tanks a lot for your work with the new overview !

I have two questions about this.

Is the use of a Python chart as an overview tile planned ?
Is it possible to display a tile according to a filter? For example hide "pace zones" if the activity is not running (isRun=0) ?

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 9 August 2021 at 22:29:52 UTC+1 launayj...@gmail.com wrote:

Tanks a lot for your work with the new overview !

I have two questions about this.

Is the use of a Python chart as an overview tile planned ?

Not for v3.6, possibly in 3.7 and we will only support plotting to QT widgets if we do (no plotly/web)

Is it possible to display a tile according to a filter? For example hide "pace zones" if the activity is not running (isRun=0) ?

Yes, on trends view their is a filter setting for each tile.

Mark

[Jérôme launay]

Thanks for your answer.

About the tiles I may have misunderstood, I was talking about a way to show/hide a tile depending on the type of activity on the activity view, for example to have in the chart options a filter that activates a context (run/bike/swim).

Regards,

Jérôme

[Ale Martinez]

El martes, 10 de agosto de 2021 a la(s) 08:08:55 UTC-3, launayj...@gmail.com escribió:

Thanks for your answer.

About the tiles I may have misunderstood, I was talking about a way to show/hide a tile depending on the type of activity on the activity view, for example to have in the chart options a filter that activates a context (run/bike/swim).

When Overview came up I tried that approach used in summary: hide the tile when the metric is not relevant for the activity or doesn't have the necessary data, but visual effect is not good and the layout is hard to configure since it changes according to the selected activity, so it was discarded.

The new approach Mark designed is to have different perspectives for each view, perspectives can be sport and/or data specific using a perspective filter and can even be selected automatically when you select another activity. See https://groups.google.com/g/golden-cheetah-users/c/ZYpGopKNBs8/m/hNckH_CaAAAJ for a discussion. 

[Jérôme launay]

Thanks for the hint Ale. I was already using different perspectives for specific data and another to have a layout using tile view to see map at the same time, since this is the new approach I will duplicate perspectives on for each sport identical with only the overview tab changing (using filters).

[Ward Muylaert]

This Bests tile only has one sorting direction as far as I can tell: descending in value. This makes it a bit pointless for a Bests overview of your times on a distance. E.g. as a runner I'd be interested in best times over, say, 5000m. So I select the Best_5000m Metric, buuut that just shows me my slowest times for the distance. Am I missing something or should I create a bug report for this?

On Sunday, 11 July 2021 at 20:36:11 UTC+2 Ale Martinez wrote:

El sábado, 10 de julio de 2021 a la(s) 05:44:31 UTC-3, Alan Thomas escribió:

In Trends, the list of Athlete Bests is an area I use a lot.

For this use case I think the new Trends Overview Bests Tile is a superior alternative, besides a better looking graphical representation (see https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/wiki/UG_ChartTypes_Trends#overview) it allows to quickly switch to the activity where the best was achieved in Activities View just clicking on the corresponding bar, analyze the context there including finding the specific segment using find intervals, and then go back using the top left navigation buttons.

[Mark Liversedge]

Sounds like a bug, the metric should be set as type Low in the code.

Mark

[Ale Martinez]

It is a refresh config problem, similar to https://groups.google.com/g/golden-cheetah-users/c/cDvn3lsW-10/m/QBOfT5E_BAAJ, when the metric changes the symbol used to get values is updated but the metric pointer used to get metric properties is not.

The workaround is to restart GC.

[Ward Muylaert]

On Wednesday, 11 August 2021 at 19:09:26 UTC+2 Ale Martinez wrote:

It is a refresh config problem, similar to https://groups.google.com/g/golden-cheetah-users/c/cDvn3lsW-10/m/QBOfT5E_BAAJ, when the metric changes the symbol used to get values is updated but the metric pointer used to get metric properties is not.

The workaround is to restart GC.

So it seems! Thanks for the tip.

[Mark Liversedge]

This has been fixed now, see:

https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/issues/4002