Training Plans

[Andrew Jamieson]

Hi There,

I have been using GC for a few years now for personal use and a few riders I coach. I write a riders training plan in an excel spreadsheet to prescribe training to do, then review power files using GC (I have an ok system syncing ride files using dropbox - thanks for whoever posted about that!). 

I have had a good look through GC help and posts on this group, but can't see an answer to my question. It is possible I have looked right past it, so apologies if this is the case.

My question is:

How do you coaches (or self coached) out there write your training plans?

1. Spreadsheet
2. In GC somehow?
3. Google or other calendar?
4. Training Peaks or Cycling Analytics?
5. Napkin?
6. Other?

I love GC for analysis of data and it's other features, but this is the one thing that stops me using it 100% for the riders I coach. It would be good to have it all it one place. I would love to hear what others do.

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,

Andrew.

[Fragkiskos Vellis]

Very interesting subject. It is one of my "concerns" the las months.

I am self-coached and I am trying to figure out the best approach.

I use GC for reviewing my training sessions. I also upload them to Garmin Connect. 

I have tried to use Garmin Connect's scheduling of workouts. Seems to work, but not perfect.

Lately, an improvement of that is that you can synch the Garmin calendar with the Google calendar (which I also use for my other personal and professional scheduling).

I also use an Excel file for the yearly planning (Friel's template). 

Stil looking for the solution that would fit my needs 100%...  I would be interested to hear ideas!

[Mark Liversedge]

Hi Both,

Yes it is a shortcoming in the current release of GoldenCheetah, and something we have talked about a few times. I know many coaches use a spreadsheet, and some use online services like TrainingPeaks.

We will be adding planning in 3.2. It is a priority for this year and will be at least in a development release before the end of this year, if not by the time the 2015 TdF starts.

There are lots of opinions on how it should work, this seems a good thread to start voicing them !

Mark

[Toby Smithson]

Great! As a coach, I'm looking for a planning solution.

I use TP, GC, YouTube, Facebook,.pdfs, Dropbox and my own spreadsheets.

I'd like to see something that follows the coaching process and includes...

- Objectives/Goal setting
- Target tracking and reporting
- Process to identify athlete weaknesses
- A coach dashboard to track athlete correspondence, training note entries with alert functionality
- Coach/athlete to do list

Happy to get involved.

Toby

[art...@gmail.com]

Hi,

to set up my training plan I am using some different excel spreadsheets and Polar ProTrainer. I am orientate myself close to Jo Friels recommendations in "Trainings Bibel for Triathlets". At first, every year is the decision how many hours I am able to spend for training. After that I weight the sports. Every sport (Swim, Bike, Run, Stabi) get a percentage depending on the training phase (PREP, BASE, BUILD, PEAK).  For this I am using two sheets. With the first one, I determine the hours and the percentage for the weeks in the different phases and in the second one I have a matrix of all weeks in a year, in what phase each week is, the start and enddate of the phases and how many units, km and hours (split of for every sport) each week should have. With this information I schedule the units and fill them with contents in Polar ProTrainer. With ProTrainer I get a good overview about the Hours, KM, Units of a week and it´s quit easy with it to copy the units to other days and it is currently the only way to get my files (Swim and Run) from my Polar RS400.


cheers
Andy

[Ruud Goorden]

In addition to above just some other thoughts:

- being able to make a workout (and save the workout in a library) on the minute / intensity level (e.g,

- 10 min @ 90% FTP
- 5 min @ 50% FTP
- 10 min @ 90% FTP
Etc.

And to drag and drop this to an agenda (diary style sheet) to a certain time of the day. Also being able to add some extra comments with that

"As icing on the cake being able to send these workout files through by e-mail or by putting them somewhere (dropbox?) so someone can sync them in their agenda. Also being able to Sync them directly (or indirectly) to your Garmin head unit". Or that they can be easily printed in a style
Which you can put on your stem."


- based on the above planned workout an ATL, CTL, TSB as planned
- based on the actual ATL, CTL, TSB a further calculation based on planned
- in addition being able to see the overview of planned rides in terms of ither metrics like time in L2, L3, etc.

[Pete from AUS]

Would this be approached from the angle of loading up planned activities and seeing the effect on PMC (a "what if" style) or from the other end where you put in a target CTL and some parameters (days/hours availablity, ramp rate limits...) and GC will give you the required TSS etc per activity to get there?

[Sheldon Bole]

Hello Guys

I coach a few riders and myself. I use GC with DropBox for analysis and reporting. I am like the rest of you having problems with prescribing the training program. I started a spreadsheet many years ago which at this point is becoming quite sophisticated (maybe that should rather be automated). I can build a long term plan with specifying week focus and hours, which then gets broken down to session codes and hours for each day on one sheet. This then links through to another sheet which has the current week's outline with a description of each workout which it looks up from another sheet based on the session code. A lot of this started from Joe Friel's method but it has been hybridized with other things and experiences over the years that it now only bears a resemblance to Joe's methods.

That being said Joe's approach works really well and forms a very good starting point.

What I would like to see implemented (sorry for any repetition of what others have already said which might come in):

1. A way to define goal events (I think we're all familiar with the concept of A, B and C races).
2. The ability to plan the macrocycle for the season (and ideally also for a 4 year cycle...) around these events. This entails broadly defining hours and mesocycle (base, build, peak, race, trans, etc. - these should be preconfigured but preferably user editable/definable) for each week (or some other definable block - not everyone works on a weekly microcycle).
   
3. The ability to plan the microcycle, so specifying hours and workout per day (by time of day - I currently specify am/pm to my riders some might want to specify exact time for group training sessions). The available workouts should be filter based on mesocycle and day of the microcycle.
4. There should be a list of workouts which can be selected from a drop down list (or dragged and dropped) that describes how to do the session. This should include target zones (power, heart rate, speed, cadence and lap times as options and preferably more than one option - you might want to specify a session in zone 4 but also between 105 and 115 RPM) which then get reflected as actual numbers on the final calendar view.
5. Ideally you would be able to easily change the length (time or distance) of any intervals specified, as well as number of repetitions, number of sets and rest periods between efforts and sets. This should also be remembered so that when you come to plan the next microcycle you can see what was planned last time. Ideally you should also be able to specify maximums and minimums for each of these for all workouts so you cannot set up 20 minute lactate tolerance intervals.
6. Should also be able to specify gear (i.e. 50x15) for each session and be able to specify this for each interval. I train track cyclists and normally specify what gear they should be doing the efforts in (my excel spreadsheet actually work this out from desired lap times and cadence).
7. Be able to specify terrain and mode of training. I.e. road, mtb, track, trainer, hilly, slight downhill, flat.
8. A really really really nice to have would be a way to track effort times. I time all my riders efforts on the track and keep a record of their lap times and total times over the different distances that we train. That way it is very easy to quantify improvement. I also do this with all their pursuits, over a few years you can really build up a nice bit of information on a rider. I also record gear ridden, temperature, humidity, air density, density altitude, whether they were on aero bars or drop bars for all their efforts and pursuits.

Okay, my brain is a bit fried now and I need to get back to paying the bills.

I have a bit of coding experience (but very limited time) so would be prepared to help out with this feature where I can.

Sheldon

[Manuel Oberti]

Hello mark,

I hope that the new function schedule of the training works for those without a PM, and uses only the FC

Thank You

hello

[Pete from AUS]

This was launched recently:

http://www.todaysplan.com.au/

"The company has four founders, including well known coach and sports scientist Mark Fenner. Mark is well known for his highly regarded FTP Training coaching business, and his role as high performance coach for the Avanti Racing Team."

[Andrea Ragusa]

It would be awesome to have similar functions in GC! Hope the training plan functionality gets integrated soon so there is no need to handle other files/programs but we can "work" just on GC :)

[SpeedyChix]

I've just started to look at this as a possible option, going to try it for personal use first.

www.finalsurge.com

[Toby Smithson]

Thanks for sharing the links.

Is it possible to import/transfer a library of training sessions in to another application?

[Tom Daly]

A number of posts here mentioned Excel for planning, some based on Friel. Are any of these shared anywhere - I'd appreciate one for cycling

[Steve Tucker]

To be honest if you are at all familiar with excel it is a simple matter to lay out a programme taken directly from Friels Training Bible.

I have a sheet for the annual plan exactly as Friel

I have a sheet as a diary

I have a sheet to plan week by week which I take from the requirements in the annual plan, on the left I plan the daily workouts week by week and on the right I put what I actually did.

I also have a 4th sheet where I table Efficiency Factors and decoupling when I do such a ride

[Julian]

I created this Excel workbook a few years ago... Another member of this forum modified it a bit after I shared it.

It allows you to plan out daily stepped workouts and see on a virtual PMC what would happen based on your plans.  You can then plot reality against your plans... anyhow, might be useful...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6564666/Training%20Template.xls

[Mark Liversedge]

Hi,

That sheet looks like its quite a lot of work to setup.

Do you find you go back and tweak it during the season or is it a one-off activity ?

The reason I ask, is I recently was advised that "a coaches default assumption is that the plan is wrong", i.e. they are constantly tracking and looking to "fix" it where its not working ...

.. and making that process work is as important as making it "easy" to set the plan up in the first place.

Mark

[Julian]

I haven't used that workbook in a while as my training has changed and blah blah blah...

When I did use it I would basically plan out one cycle at a time- perhaps a month or so... and see how I tracked along the plan and then move on to the next cycle.  That way I avoided having to fill out a year's worth of training only to inevitably have to tweak it later on.  Keep in mind that I had been working with a coach for several years prior to that workbook so I knew a lot about training.  As a beginner that workbook would be overwhelming and to a degree, useless.  Knowing about the different cycles and stimulus-response-adaptation model is key to any training...

It was mostly a useful exercise in "if I do exactly this, then this will be the outcome" 

You are correct in that the default position *should* be that the plan is failing, will fail or has failed and needs to be modified (that's why I believe software will likely never fully replace the trained coach).  That said, there are plenty of instances where a pre-packaged training plan may be very useful particularly if it's interactive and allows modification and adaption... 

-J 

[Mark Liversedge]

On Friday, 20 February 2015 21:47:50 UTC, Julian wrote:

I haven't used that workbook in a while as my training has changed and blah blah blah...

When I did use it I would basically plan out one cycle at a time- perhaps a month or so... and see how I tracked along the plan and then move on to the next cycle.  That way I avoided having to fill out a year's worth of training only to inevitably have to tweak it later on.  Keep in mind that I had been working with a coach for several years prior to that workbook so I knew a lot about training.  As a beginner that workbook would be overwhelming and to a degree, useless.  Knowing about the different cycles and stimulus-response-adaptation model is key to any training...

It was mostly a useful exercise in "if I do exactly this, then this will be the outcome" 

You are correct in that the default position *should* be that the plan is failing, will fail or has failed and needs to be modified (that's why I believe software will likely never fully replace the trained coach).  That said, there are plenty of instances where a pre-packaged training plan may be very useful particularly if it's interactive and allows modification and adaption... 

-J 

Yes, I am with you. And totally wrt software being no replacement for a good coach !

I think an important point is to make this about being the coach, whether you are self-coaching or coaching others. 

Where I am nervous is making a tool that is flexible enough for coaches that have very different philosophies and approaches whilst making it usable for a novice coach. Its the same challenge as with the analysis side !

I think we should continue down the road of revealing complexity rather than starting* with it... but its going to be fun :)

Mark

* some folks say that the complexity isn't hidden enough for new users...

[Chris Cleeland]

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Mark Liversedge <liver...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think an important point is to make this about being the coach, whether you are self-coaching or coaching others. 

Where I am nervous is making a tool that is flexible enough for coaches that have very different philosophies and approaches whilst making it usable for a novice coach. Its the same challenge as with the analysis side !

I think that is an incredibly difficult challenge. What a novice coach needs is software that coaches him/her through a methodology.  That requires that the methodology be clearly described and that the common case through the methodology is the what the software does by default.  This is a place where CPS and subsequently WKO+ 2.1 really shined--they were laserbeam-focused.  Of course, they were also feature-limited and remain so (QA is interesting but not compelling enough to warrant an upgrade IMHO).  They support the coggan/allen approach to training and that's it--and only really a small slice of that approach, to be honest.

Trying to make GC support multiple methodologies is a good idea, but I think there is a limit.  Just like abstracting software components, the interchangeable elements (in this case, coaching methods) must have more similarities than differences.  In software, if entities are too dissimilar to exhibit an "is-a" relationship, then you either have to adapt (with a possible loss of fidelity/capability) or change to a "uses" relationship.

For awhile I've been thinking about how GC could be divided into two parts: a common datastore for training-related data, either directly collected or computed/derived as a result of some model, and UIs that implement methodologies and models for analysis, prediction/planning, etc. Put more concretely, you might have a coggan/allen methodology GUI, or a Skiba, or a Friel. How these are implemented I'm not sure--maybe completely separate apps, maybe plugins for a GUI shell, maybe "skins" or "personalities" in a monolithic (similar to what we have now) application.  If the datastore backend is separable, e.g., in a library that can be linked in, there is no reason it couldn't be used as the backend for a web-based interface to training data.

The thing is that in order to do that well, those who define the model and the UIs need to have sufficient enough experience/information with different models that they can design a rich enough abstraction to implement without over-abstracting.  I think there's been enough water under the bridge with GC that we might be approaching the right level of experience/knowledge to do that.  From what I've seen, Mark's already got a good start on the datastore idea already.

 

* some folks say that the complexity isn't hidden enough for new users...

Or even for experienced users, IMHO :)

--

Chris Cleeland

[Alex Simmons]

I built my own software that we've been using for several years now and it does most of this and more. It's deployed as a compiled version of Excel VB. Ugh, I know. I'm no programmer but I know Excel and can work my way round VB pretty well.

From the list below, it does:
1. yes
2. yes with easy to follow formats that show how the season/year looks with all events highlighted and auto colour-coded, but see comments* below

3. yes, can choose from 3 workout types per day from drop downs - durations, intensity etc auto-calculated

4. yes plus ability to pre-define weekly training blocks to use as a starting point, and workout levels are auto calculated (and can be custom modified by coach if needed)

5. yes, every workout available in the library can be customised by coach and prior training blocks can be saved and reloaded if so desired (normally we are looking at most recent training plan and compare that with what client actually did). Our library is fairly fixed as we use a consistent library for our business, but that can be modified as needed (e.g. recently added some extra workout types the coaches asked to have - it's pretty trivial to add them)

6. Not specifically programmed but coach can customise any day and workout however they like. If it were a common need for us I'd probably have programmed it.

7. yes, although that done thru the library of workouts

8. Not that exactly as that sounds like a post-hoc analysis, but I do have a place to record key performance test data that is tracked in summary form for the client so there is a record e.g. of FTP setting changes, MAP or other performance tests.

Plus:

- integration with an online client event calendar so when the coach uses the planning tool they are working with the current live version of calendar that the athlete maintains (races, days unavailable etc). This is something that used to be the bane of our coaches, life is so much better now.

- integration with PMC data if desired, and shows past and planned training in PMC format with some chart controls for long view or zoom in, adjust constants etc

- planning tools such as training time availability and alerts, auto inserting race and other event dates into micro planner, auto colour coding etc

- ease of adjusting season commencement dates

- multiple workout types per day (I've allowed for 3 - if coach really wants more they can customise or we can create a new workout type in the library with descriptors)

- physiological and athlete summary, and season and long term goals

- choice of various way to generate training levels and workout intensity (e.g. MAP, FTP, 20-min MMP, or even HRthresh or HRmax)

- load, edit, save individual rider training block data

- user form for ease of use

- the training is produced in a format that is our copyright, although output of training can really be delivered however one likes (e.g. csv for upload somewhere)

- auto display of forward and priority 1 event schedule, broad plan outline, goals, physiological data, training availability, training levels, performance test tracker, and other key data in training schedule summary page

- information pertaining to our business (e.g. service level, date coaching commenced)

- probably a bunch of other stuff I've forgotten as I'm not looking at it right now

I have two versions, one our coaches use to plan design and deliver training in a consistent professional format/layout, and one to create more general semi-custom non-coached training plans which are uploaded to and delivered via our online platform. 

The coach software provides a platform to take the drudgery work out of preparing training and to a presentation standard we expect, and frees up the to coach focus on what's important, i.e. sort out what training should the athlete be doing. 

It does not tell the coach how to plan or what training to schedule, that's up to them to decide, and they are free to layer on their own style to the training, but there are also standard options available for a coach to use as a template to help them get started, or for lower service level clients where coach isn't going to spent half a day agonising over minor details of next week's plan.

Apart from making life easier for the coaches and improving efficiency, it also has improved our business's standard of service - ensuring consistent quality of output, timeliness, reduction in training schedule mistake rate - especially calendar errors, ability for coaches to share and discuss issues wrt a client coaching matter and have a consistent platform for that, ability to easily transfer a client to another coach if needed.

It would be far better developed in a different platform for future proofing but it is what it is and it works and works well.

* While creating a broad overview of a plan for a season is fine, life rarely permits one to execute to a plan as you might lay it out, nor how an athlete might respond and be in need of a change in training direction and as such I see no point in being overly specific beyond the next 1-4 weeks. Add onto that often goals do vary for a variety of reasons (life issues, opportunistic, injury/illness, events change etc).

[Ruud Goorden]

Wow. Great input to read Alex!

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 23 February 2015 04:38:23 UTC, Alex Simmons wrote:

I built my own software that we've been using for several years now and it does most of this and more. It's deployed as a compiled version of Excel VB. Ugh, I know. I'm no programmer but I know Excel and can work my way round VB pretty well.

Thanks for your post. 

 

The thing I'm most curious about is how you go about linking meso cycles to actual workouts.

e.g. Meso cycle: 4 week "Build" block --> e.g. 20 specific workouts with Erg+ type definition

.. and then manage the round trip back again.

Cheers

Mark

[Alex Simmons]

Well it may be that I don't quite understand the intent of this statement "Meso cycle: 4 week..." and the round trip back again, hence perhaps my interpretation of this differs from the OP's and/or yours.

What I mean is:

Firstly we'll define a broad period of training from the full season layout of the race calendar view. 

e.g. From that helicopter view of the season it might be I decide that a 5 week long race specific preparation phase is needed from week X to week Y and right before a taper and priority 1 race period. Before that I might have blocks of training of various lengths. Various overviews, base, endurance, etc. Call them what you like, and also add notes on whatever particular focus matters during that block.

The planner enables me to easily mark that period as such with a drop down, and when I get to planning the specific workouts in the micro planner, it identifies that this period is "Race Specific Preparation" or whatever moniker is used. Those a customisable, and if you really want you can type whatever name you like. We do however use colour coding for such things, so having them in the library is better when it comes to final presentation of the training schedule in the format we use.

OK. That's nice, and in an ideal world by the time we get to that block we'll be able to train accordingly.

However as time and training progresses along and other stuff happens, meaning the "best laid plans of mice and men..." go to shit for whatever reason, well the tool means you can quickly reshape the season plan to account for the new scenario/dynamic. 

Maybe there isn't as much time available for specific prep as you had first planned. Or maybe the rider's race director hasn't quite decided on which races they'll be doing. Or illness/injury strikes. Or they get selected or offered an opportunity that wasn't originally expected.

Well then let's reshape the overall plan from now 'til then to make the best use of the time we do have and based on what we now know, or perhaps we need a chat to revise the events/goals altogether. Had an example of that the other week. Athlete gets waylaid by injury, so the plans for an early season stage races had to be abandoned, and the season restructured accordingly.

As for the specific detail of what training is included in any period, well that's up to the coach to decide and they use the microcycle planner to build the overall structure for that week/fortnight/month, and the specific workouts to be scheduled on each day. There are tools that help quickly assign how much work per week and per day and per workout, and these are fully adjustable, and tools to help coach manage these within the training availability constraints for that athlete as well as show the specific calendar events if they occur during that cycle.

A coach can choose from some pre-fabricated weeks (e.g. "Base week 2", "Race prep week 1", "Race on Saturday") if they'd like to get some suggestions, but in reality every individual is different, and their training is individually customised by the coach accordingly.

Building some logic to automate this further is certainly possible with some business rules, but IME the individualisation of training schedules is best handled by the coach themselves. So many variables: terrain available, weather conditions and indoor v outdoor opportunity, current form, training history, changes in short term training availability/opportunity compared with typical pattern, bike available, let alone their actual fitness, training loads, rider psychology etc. It'd need an AI application to manage all these factors. So we use CI instead. Coach Intelligence.

The more experience you gain as a coach and the better you know your athletes, the more intuitive you become and the less you rely on tools to make training schedule/workload/workout decisions. But better tools do mean at least a half decent method exists to semi-customise plans for people if you want to service clients on a tighter budget.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 23 February 2015 22:56:17 UTC, Alex Simmons wrote:

Well it may be that I don't quite understand the intent of this statement "Meso cycle: 4 week..." and the round trip back again, hence perhaps my interpretation of this differs from the OP's and/or yours.

What I mean is:

Firstly we'll define a broad period of training from the full season layout of the race calendar view. 

e.g. From that helicopter view of the season it might be I decide that a 5 week long race specific preparation phase is needed from week X to week Y and right before a taper and priority 1 race period. Before that I might have blocks of training of various lengths. Various overviews, base, endurance, etc. Call them what you like, and also add notes on whatever particular focus matters during that block.

And the characteristics of the block will likely specify a target intensity distribution, volume frequency ? (i.e. codify what 'base', 'build', 'endurance' etc etc.

   

The planner enables me to easily mark that period as such with a drop down, and when I get to planning the specific workouts in the micro planner, it identifies that this period is "Race Specific Preparation" or whatever moniker is used. Those a customisable, and if you really want you can type whatever name you like. We do however use colour coding for such things, so having them in the library is better when it comes to final presentation of the training schedule in the format we use.

Yeah, we would likely create a 'season' type date range (but maybe call it a cycle / block / phase).

 

OK. That's nice, and in an ideal world by the time we get to that block we'll be able to train accordingly.

However as time and training progresses along and other stuff happens, meaning the "best laid plans of mice and men..." go to shit for whatever reason, well the tool means you can quickly reshape the season plan to account for the new scenario/dynamic. 

Yes, and this is where 'round trip' comes into play -- you lay it out, you tweak things etc and then when you go back to the top level and adjust the plan from  a higher level (e.g. extend phase by a week, decrease intensity / volume) that needs to be reflected in the lower level workouts (but you may have some that are VERY specific (e.g. a test).

 

Building some logic to automate this further is certainly possible with some business rules, but IME the individualisation of training schedules is best handled by the coach themselves. So many variables: terrain available, weather conditions and indoor v outdoor opportunity, current form, training history, changes in short term training availability/opportunity compared with typical pattern, bike available, let alone their actual fitness, training loads, rider psychology etc. It'd need an AI application to manage all these factors. So we use CI instead. Coach Intelligence.

Absolutely understand that, its more about the tool helping avoid lots of monotonous updates.. and was curious to know how you handled it ? 

 

The more experience you gain as a coach and the better you know your athletes, the more intuitive you become and the less you rely on tools to make training schedule/workload/workout decisions. But better tools do mean at least a half decent method exists to semi-customise plans for people if you want to service clients on a tighter budget.

I understand that, the distribution across the season to hit things like a target TSB of -5 / CTL 100+ for 2 specific races, including an appropriate taper whilst honoring the fact that the athlete can only train on T,W,F,Sun and etc means that computers are going to be much better at identifying the load distribution than a human (esp, if the human is working with goals and periodization) -- but once thats done the human can 'tweak' the workouts and maybe block parameters to suit reality or as things change.

Creating a tool to record the plan is great, but I think we should add a little more value .. but that's also where we will likely hit the problems of different coaches approach to planning ... I was curious to know how you managed that, it seems the coaches do all the hard work ?

Cheers !

Mark