Workout Designer

[Mark Liversedge]

Over the holiday break I'm gonna work on bottom up planning. 

This means looking at the workouts you will perform each day. Selecting a workout from a library, editing it or even creating a new one and then putting it into the daily plan.

There are lots of implicit features in the above;

a) we have a daily load plan that defines a target for each day

b) we have a workout library we can browse

c) we have a daily workout plan that we will update

d) we have a workout editor to create or edit workouts

None of those features exist (but are planned for v4) !

So given I have two weeks I'm going to start at the bottom (d) write our workout designer. Looking around I see that both TrainerRoad and Zwift now have decent graphical editors, and PerfPro has a workout editor rather akin the Workout Wizard we already have in GC.The old Intellicoach ERG+ editor was fairly neat too, but doesn't seem to exist anymore online (at least I cannot find it).

But I want to take a slightly different approach.

Ultimately I want to:

a) Integrate with train view - edit in-line direct on the chart, rather than opening up a dialog

b) Make it easy and fast - pick and drag points quickly

c) Align to science - plot W'bal, Time In Zone, Stress etc as you design

d) Integrate with our CloudDB - the new GAE web resource Joern has developed for sharing charts.

So I'm going to have a crack at this over the next 2 weeks and will share progress here.

I'm going to start with completely new code and make it standalone, but ultimately it will become the workout chart and plot runtime telemetry too to meet goal (a) above.

Key features to start with

I only have 2 weeks or so. So the basic features to begin with will be limited to:

a) graphical editing; click, drag and drop 'points' for power/duration

b) snap to grid and 'alignment hints' when cursor aligns to existing points/CP/zones

c) undo and redo, save and save as.

If I make good progress on that, I will add

d) plot predicted W'bal as you design

e) plot predicted metrics, distributions as you design

That should keep me busy for a while.

Beyond that, interested in your views .................

Mark

[Kevin in MD]

This looks to be pretty fine grained. But for those of us who may want to use this with more than one athlete, a handy thing to have would be when you go to an editor - whatever that may be, a reminder or note of some sort so that can say for Thursday for instance - no hills, flats only. Or trainer only today, or no longer than 45 minutes, or Thursdays off. 

You would edit this ahead of time so that it repeats every week.

It sounds simple but is a great help in keeping track of who can do what on what day.

[Will]

This would be incredible! I have cobbled together a spreadsheet from other people's work with some modifications, and that is what I use at this point because the existing options don't have the features I want. I can share it with you if it would help conceptually.

But, everything you list sounds awesome. I have two small usability suggestions, if they are doable:

1. Add a "ramp up" and "ramp down" feature. Currently the workout designer in GC only supports 1 power level in an interval. For erg mode especially, ramps are nice.

2. Add an "auto lap" (checkbox perhaps?). I added this to the spreadsheet and it is very valuable. Whenever the power level changes, a lap is inserted automatically in the erg file. That way, I can always see how much time is left at the current power level by using the "lap time remaining" telemetry. Otherwise, especially with microintervals, it is very difficult to follow the workout.

Just suggestions. Thanks for your work!

Will

[Karl Billeter]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:17:03AM -0800, Mark Liversedge wrote:

> *Key features to start with*

>
> I only have 2 weeks or so. So the basic features to begin with will be
> limited to:
> a) graphical editing; click, drag and drop 'points' for power/duration
> b) snap to grid and 'alignment hints' when cursor aligns to existing
> points/CP/zones
> c) undo and redo, save and save as.
>
> If I make good progress on that, I will add
> d) plot predicted W'bal as you design
> e) plot predicted metrics, distributions as you design
>
> That should keep me busy for a while.
>
> Beyond that, interested in your views .................

I'm planning to start using the training side of GC (well, use the trainer
full stop to be honest - motivation is a little hard in the midst of
summer...).

I'd be interested in a couple of features that seem to be hard to come by in a
workout editor. Perhaps because they're not directly supported by .erg files?.

- the ability to flag workouts or parts as absolute power (useful for ramp
/ MAP tests)

- the ability to drop out of erg mode into level/resistance mode and back
into erg mode (eg. for an FTP test with structured warmup and cooldown)


Regards,
Karl

[Pete from AUS]

I would see the "low hanging fruit" features as:

- ability to filter workouts from a library based on parameters (TSS, VI, IF, T-I-Z, etc)

- manually create/clone workouts

- flag workouts in library to exclude/ignore from athlete 

-some sort of ability to plot the above parameters on a future-dated chart, such that the available workouts via the filter (as above) would change in line with the parameter ranges as at that day. Or some similar means to parameterize the training 'phase' for the purpose of filtering suitable workouts.

So say I plot a TSS range from 150 to 200 (today) to 100 to 150 (in 3 months time). IF may be set as say 0.4 to 0.6 today through to 0.7 to 1.0 in 3 months time. For any given day during that period, a range of workouts would be available to select. (and ability to select from outside filtered workouts)

A future-PMC would be built up from the selected workouts to visualize the effect of the training load.

[Julian]

I wait with baited breath.

My only suggestion at this point is to ensure that whatever system is designed for building the daily workouts is not mouse-dependent. Editing on the charts with drag and drop is great but text entry is so much faster.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Sunday, 20 December 2015 19:28:37 UTC, Julian wrote:

My only suggestion at this point is to ensure that whatever system is designed for building the daily workouts is not mouse-dependent. Editing on the charts with drag and drop is great but text entry is so much faster.

It will be mouse dependant. If you want text entry use notepad. 

[tigg...@gmail.com]

Thanks Mark.  If you have the time, it would also be good if it could deal with other sports (e.g. running and swimming) so that you could, for example, see how many hours you plan to do for each sport.

[Julian]

Such snark... totally unnecessary.  

Let me clarify:

For creating the daily workouts- the ones with lots of granular intervals how would this be done without text-entry.  If there's an elegant and fast way to do it then that's awesome and I applaud the attempt, I just don't know of one at the moment.  FWIW, creating a workout on ErgDB is really easy with text and takes but seconds.  I can't see how to do that with a mouse.  Surely not an issue if you're creating one or two workouts but imagine doing a ton...  For macro and meso cycles a mouse-based interactive interface sounds totally logical and ideal but for micro cycles I dunno...  Honestly, I dunno.  I just think the snark is totally uncool.   

Another suggestion (that you can summarily dismiss as is your wont):

It would be very seamless and highly productive if the daily workouts a user creates to manage the training planning could be used to control a trainer such as the Kickr or Tacx etc... it would effectively be doubling the value of the user's time investment...

-J

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 21 December 2015 17:52:11 UTC, Julian wrote:

Such snark... totally unnecessary.  

It wasn't snark, it was genuine.

The ERG files are very simple text files, edit them directly if you want to work by editing text.

The workout editors in tools like Zwift and TrainerRoad are heavily mouse dependant, and there really is no getting away from that. Here is TR for example: https://youtu.be/ptkJVFs2z0s?t=173

Mark

[Erik Botö]

I like this idea, and I think that this is the plan. At least that is how I read Marks first post.

Cheers,

Erik

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 6:52:11 PM UTC+1, Julian wrote:

<snip> 

[Will]

GC already controls smart trainers via FE-C. Kickr definitely works well.

[Eric Christoffersen]

Lo! Like Mark says the Erg files are very simple and it is easy to edit them directly:

http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201944204-Creating-a-Workout-from-an-ERG-or-MRC-File

I entered a 5x8 over/under on my phone using kinetic inride app. Workout was 27 steps. The clicky-click was tedious and error prone. Maybe took 15 minutes. Text would be so much easier.

Some features I am sort of wanting:

- Instead of straight ramps, have a way for computer to add in a bit of wiggle.

- I don't always like knowing the workout ahead of time. Wouldn't it be fun & exciting to have a "surprise me" button (with constraints so the workout roughly hits my goals: tss, w'bal min, time)

- Interesting to build a workout with new sorts of parameters (zone, w'bal drainage, time at heart rate.) "Hey computer: wring me out 5 times!"

Eric

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 21 December 2015 23:21:44 UTC, Eric Christoffersen wrote:

Lo! Like Mark says the Erg files are very simple and it is easy to edit them directly:

http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201944204-Creating-a-Workout-from-an-ERG-or-MRC-File

I entered a 5x8 over/under on my phone using kinetic inride app. Workout was 27 steps. The clicky-click was tedious and error prone. Maybe took 15 minutes. Text would be so much easier.

Yes, unless we can make it easy :)

I'm playing with a UX where you click points to draw the power/duration line.

Its great for starting from scratch, but problematic when editing.

So I'm looking at using both schemes to edit - points and blocks.

Will post a video when I have something meaningful to show.

I fully understand your point about tediousness of overly complex click and drag.

 

Some features I am sort of wanting:

- Instead of straight ramps, have a way for computer to add in a bit of wiggle.

- I don't always like knowing the workout ahead of time. Wouldn't it be fun & exciting to have a "surprise me" button (with constraints so the workout roughly hits my goals: tss, w'bal min, time)

- Interesting to build a workout with new sorts of parameters (zone, w'bal drainage, time at heart rate.) "Hey computer: wring me out 5 times!"

W'bal workouts are something I want. But will need a new file format or something.

Adding wiggle should be a runtime option, its good to simulate road conditions and seems to help reduce fatigue in some way, but again agree its a good idea.

Mark

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 19 December 2015 08:17:03 UTC, Mark Liversedge wrote:

So I'm going to have a crack at this over the next 2 weeks and will share progress here.

Got a basic prototype for working with points working and since its unconstrained editing, no guides, snap-to, delete etc its definitely not ready for use!

I thought I'd send a quick video to show the basic idea.

https://vimeo.com/150206988

Ultimately it will be possible to work with points AND blocks, so you can work quickly and efficiently.

At least .... thats the idea !

Mark 

[Will]

That was fast!  I really like the basic concept.  It's very different from anything else out there, but seems intuitive, and it allows for ramps!

[Nathan Townsend]

lol i just deleted a post because I didn't check this video and what I wrote is basically obsolete.

EPIC work Mark.  This is really powerful and useful.  If it becomes linked to W'bal and training load metrics then it is a superb tool because it allows forward estimation of training load.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 29 December 2015 10:55:33 UTC, Nathan Townsend wrote:

lol i just deleted a post because I didn't check this video and what I wrote is basically obsolete.

EPIC work Mark.  This is really powerful and useful.  If it becomes linked to W'bal and training load metrics then it is a superb tool because it allows forward estimation of training load.

W'bal is on my todo list for this week.

I've added constraints and alignment helping today, which makes it much easier to work with, it was almost impossible before. In the picture attached you can see the points highlighting as I drag a point around to show they are aligned. When dragging points they are constrained by each other, making drag much more useful and easier.

Todo for this week:

1. undo/redo

2. select a group of points

3. cut/paste/copy

4. align/group/move/resize

5. Plot W'bal, TSS, IF as you edit

6. SAVE (!!) .. kind of important :)

I'm sticking with the 'points' approach for now and will move onto working with 'blocks' when that's done

Mark

[9606]

Can you please direct us to one or two explanations or discussions of the concept "W'bal". Thank you.

[9606]

Ignore, found some.

[Onya Bike]

Fantastic work Mark; a great addition to an already superb product!

Just a suggestion; when working with points it would be useful to have the point coordinate - reporting the elapsed workout time, power, and %FTP (or %CP) - optionally displayed when adding/moving points.  It would also be good to have the same information displayed when hovering over points of previously created workouts.

Another vote for adding the ability to drop out of ERG mode for selected sections of the workout (e.g. for FTP tests with structured warm-up/cool-down).

Thanks for all of your hard work and dedication!

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 29 December 2015 16:09:16 UTC, Onya Bike wrote:

Fantastic work Mark; a great addition to an already superb product!

Just a suggestion; when working with points it would be useful to have the point coordinate - reporting the elapsed workout time, power, and %FTP (or %CP) - optionally displayed when adding/moving points.  It would also be good to have the same information displayed when hovering over points of previously created workouts.

Ha! I just added that to top right as was going cross-eyed trying to guess it (will add %FTP).

 

Another vote for adding the ability to drop out of ERG mode for selected sections of the workout (e.g. for FTP tests with structured warm-up/cool-down).

Yes, switching modes is cool -- just not supported in the standard ERG format, not sure how to handle it. 

For anyone following along I am open to ideas on this .. I am very pedestrian myself. Pyramids and sufferfest are my staple on the turbo.

Mark

[9606]

How about the ability to use +/- buttons on the Computrainer controller to adjust FTP in the middle of a workout.

On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 2:17:03 AM UTC-6, Mark Liversedge wrote:

[Onya Bike]

Thanks Mark... you can add mind-reading to your list of talents! :)

Happy New Year!!

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 29 December 2015 17:32:45 UTC, 9606 wrote:

How about the ability to use +/- buttons on the Computrainer controller to adjust FTP in the middle of a workout.

A little off topic, this is about the designer ;)

The controller keys do the following when running an ERG file:

STOP/Reset = Stop 
F1 = new lap/interval 
F2 = change display size *** DEFUNCT ***
+/- = increase/decrease load/gradient 
F3 = shift key so... 
F3 and + = fast forward through workout 
F3 and -  = rewind back in workout 
F3 and F1 = fast forward to next Lap marker 

Mark 

[9606]

Thanks.
BTW where is this info shown. I thought I had read most of the GC manuals.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 29 December 2015 22:22:13 UTC, 9606 wrote:

Thanks.
BTW where is this info shown. I thought I had read most of the GC manuals.

Its on a post on the forums from way back -- it should be in the wiki -- feel like adding it ? 

[9606]

Indeed it is 'way back'.

Let me get more familiar with Train and CT.

Typically I prefer to give $$ rather than time. GC is such a fantastic piece of work i may try some wiki work.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Wednesday, 30 December 2015 15:35:57 UTC, 9606 wrote:

Indeed it is 'way back'.

Let me get more familiar with Train and CT.

Typically I prefer to give $$ rather than time. GC is such a fantastic piece of work i may try some wiki work.

No worries :)

We will be setting up some crowdfunding in 2016.

Cheers

Mark 

[Will]

Sorry to remain off topic, but I didn't know about the +/- buttons either!  That's an awesome feature.  That's a really easy way to get my Vectors to "agree" with the Kickr.  It looks like it only works when playing an ERG file, or in manual mode, but doesn't work when playing a PGMF file to do a VideoSync/RLV.  Is there a function to reduce the gradient in a VideoSync, or is it best to just make a more tame version of the PGMF?

Thanks,

Will

[Mark Liversedge]

On Wednesday, 30 December 2015 20:54:23 UTC, Will wrote:

Sorry to remain off topic, but I didn't know about the +/- buttons either!  That's an awesome feature.  That's a really easy way to get my Vectors to "agree" with the Kickr.  It looks like it only works when playing an ERG file, or in manual mode, but doesn't work when playing a PGMF file to do a VideoSync/RLV.  Is there a function to reduce the gradient in a VideoSync, or is it best to just make a more tame version of the PGMF?

Thats an ommission, I probably just didn't think about it at the time.

We should add it.

Mark 

[9606]

As one is picking points and creating a workout, can a W'bal line be created & shown in the back ground? How about TSS?

[Mark Liversedge]

On Wednesday, 30 December 2015 23:50:22 UTC, 9606 wrote:

As one is picking points and creating a workout, can a W'bal line be created & shown in the back ground? How about TSS?

Yes thats on the list from the 29th :)

I've had a few distractions this week at home so progress has stalled, but will pick up again.

First thing is to get undo and redo working... need to bake it in early.

Mark 

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 28 December 2015 22:30:12 UTC, Mark Liversedge wrote:

On Saturday, 19 December 2015 08:17:03 UTC, Mark Liversedge wrote:

So I'm going to have a crack at this over the next 2 weeks and will share progress here.

So another progress video here: https://vimeo.com/150467252

I've got redo/undo, constraints and guides for editing points and plotting w'bal, TSS and IF as you edit.

I need to look now at

1. selecting points and working with them (delete, resize, align)

2. copy paste to repeat sections

3. save (!!)

4. plotting whilst recording (i.e. dual edit/play mode)

Once thats done I'll look at improving coverage i.e.

5. work with slope/distance workouts not just power/duration

6. editing blocks rather than points (like all the other workout editors do)

7. pre-defined segments (warm up, pyramid, over/under etc)

8. adding text prompts (using TrainerRoad extension in ERG format)

9. Interval discovery (using sustained interval approach / recovery cut off)

Still open to ideas ..................

Cheers,

Mark

[Mike Patton]

Looking good, Mark! How about a 'snap to grid' with user-defined grid spacing. For example, snapping to 30s intervals or 25w (or %FTP) would be really useful to get the 'bones' of the workout set up, and then you could toggle off snap to grid to refine.

Another idea is to be able to zoom in the same way the full plot currently works, especially if you have a longer workout.

Finally, I'm sure this wouldn't be trivial, but if you are already working on user formulas, how about a formula-style short-form that could cook up an erg file quickly. For example, I might write a workout like 2x(4x2'@400w, 5' rec@200W), 20' rest. If I consider the link between the planning components you've described and this granular workout designer, it might be a useful bridge.

Again, nice work, and I'm looking forward to giving it a try!

[Claus Assmann]

On Fri, Jan 01, 2016, Mike Patton wrote:

> Finally, I'm sure this wouldn't be trivial, but if you are already
> working on user formulas, how about a formula-style short-form that
> could cook up an erg file quickly. For example, I might write a
> workout like 2x(4x2'@400w, 5' rec@200W), 20' rest. If I consider

If you define a grammar for that, you might be able to write a simple
script in your language of choice (awk, perl, python, ...) to generate
the text format (which you can then import?).
That shouldn't be too hard (maybe someone did it already?)

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 2 January 2016 00:52:44 UTC, Mike Patton wrote:

Looking good, Mark! How about a 'snap to grid' with user-defined grid spacing. For example, snapping to 30s intervals or 25w (or %FTP) would be really useful to get the 'bones' of the workout set up, and then you could toggle off snap to grid to refine.

Great idea. Snap to grid. Will add to the todo list.

 

Another idea is to be able to zoom in the same way the full plot currently works, especially if you have a longer workout.

I have that in mind for the future -- the coordinate system I use is abstracted to deliberately allow for this.

I want to think about how this might work alongside making a workout shorter or longer too...

 

Finally, I'm sure this wouldn't be trivial, but if you are already working on user formulas, how about a formula-style short-form that could cook up an erg file quickly. For example, I might write a workout like 2x(4x2'@400w, 5' rec@200W), 20' rest. If I consider the link between the planning components you've described and this granular workout designer, it might be a useful bridge.

That's getting awfully close to the actual text format !!

I wonder if being able to toggle to editing the text might be useful (to tidy it up etc), rather like WYSIWYG html editors that toggle between raw html and the page editor. Will think on it, because that would mean round-trip editing of the comments and stuff which I haven't considered.

 

Again, nice work, and I'm looking forward to giving it a try!

Joern and I are going to get some dev builds out before the end of Jan so folks can play (and test the new 5.6 builds, so dependant on QT releasing it).

Mark 

[Luther Gulseth]

#7, pre-defined segments, could this also include user-defined segments? I tend to need much longer warm-ups than normal workouts give, especially for power interval or race effort levels.

Maybe this could include select and save as?

Luther

[Mark Liversedge]

I've recorded a summary video of where the workout editor is at, now the holidays are over for most of us.

I'm done with the 'points' concept and now shifting on to the 'blocks' concept (which is how most workout editors work).

Cut/Paste and on-screen feedback/guides are my next priority.

https://vimeo.com/150662873

As before.. really interested in hearing your thoughts or ideas for this.

Mark

[Will]

Wow, that's incredible.  It has come a very long way in a short time -- it's almost a finished product!  It seems like all it needs is the block mode and it'll be more functional than most trainer programs (point editing, w'bal and MMP graphs are unprecedented, I believe).  Editing or creating gradient workouts would be really cool at some point.  Adding text messages into the workout, like TrainerRoad, would also be really nice but I'm not sure where to fit it into that GUI.

I like the idea of being able to make a quick skeleton by typing a line of text, like 5x(5x30sx30s@110x65%CP) or something like that, but that is a bit tangential to the current project.

As an aside, I've seen discussion on and off about taking train mode out of GC and making it a standalone app, but I personally like having them integrated.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 4 January 2016 15:49:17 UTC, Will wrote:

As an aside, I've seen discussion on and off about taking train mode out of GC and making it a standalone app, but I personally like having them integrated.

I agree. Especially as more and more models appear.

Mark 

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 2 January 2016 00:52:44 UTC, Mike Patton wrote:

Finally, I'm sure this wouldn't be trivial, but if you are already working on user formulas, how about a formula-style short-form that could cook up an erg file quickly. For example, I might write a workout like 2x(4x2'@400w, 5' rec@200W), 20' rest. If I consider the link between the planning components you've described and this granular workout designer, it might be a useful bridge.

I'm working on this "quick code" for defining a workout. Having spent ages on the pointy-click approach this is very appealling.

I'm going to translate a workout into a code format that you can edit, and as you edit the workout changes.

Obviously, if users aren't comfortable working this way they can just ignore it, but it could be a really powerful feature, and merges the notepad approach with the point and click world. 

Here is the syntax I'm thinking of, interested in hearing thoughts. It doesn't have the power of nesting that you are proposing, but I will be making it round trip - i.e. existing workouts will be expressed as a code you can then edit as well as use to create from scratch. Thinking of calling it a 'qwkcode'.

1575     // convert the points to a string that can be edited

1576     // it is a list of sections separated by commas

1577     // of the form

1578     //

1579     //       N - repeat N times

1580     //     ttt - duration N[ms]

1581     //    @iii - intensity as % of CP

1582     //    @iii-ppp - from iii to ppp intensity

1583     //    rttt - recovery for ttt

1584     //    @rrr - recovery intensity

1585     //    @rrr-sss - from rrr to sss intensity

1586     //

1587     //    e.g.

1588     //    4x10@90r3@65   - 4 time 10 mins at 90% CP followed by 3m at 60% of CP

1589     //    5x30s@150r30s  - 5 times 30seconds at 150% of CP followed by 30s at 'recovery'

1590     //    20m@60-140     - 20 minutes going from 60% of CP to 140% of CP

1591     //

1592     //

1593     //    A complete workout example;

1594     //    3m@65,1@100r3@65,5x5@105r3@65,10@65

1595     //

1596     //    Which decodes as a "classic" 5x5 vo2max workout:

1597     //    1) 3minute at 65% of CP to warm up

1598     //    2) 1minute at CP followed by 3 mins recovery at 65% of CP to blow away the cobwebs

1599     //    3) 5 sets of 5 minutes at 105% of CP with 3 minutes recovery at 65% of CP

1600     //    4) 10minutes at 65% of CP to cool down

I reckon sharing workouts could be as simple as cutting and pasting a qwkcode. A library might just be one text file of them.

Obviously, thats a bit radical, so probably just use it in the editor only :)

BTW, the editor is coming along well, it works when performing a workout so can be used to edit and adjust directly before performing a workout.

Here's me editing a workout...

.. and then running it in the same widget.

Cheers,

Mark

[9606]

Why is the 'r' needed to signify a recovery period?

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 18 January 2016 11:37:28 UTC, 9606 wrote:

Why is the 'r' needed to signify a recovery period?

So we can repeat effort/recovery without nesting.

Mark 

[Arend teRaa]

Looks great! How about an option to specify watts rather than just a percent of CP?  5x5@250wr3@....  

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[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 18 January 2016 12:30:03 UTC, Arend teRaa wrote:

Looks great! How about an option to specify watts rather than just a percent of CP?  5x5@250wr3@....  

I have eneded up back at absolute values since percentages need lots of precision and it makes it horrible to edit.

I think we may end up editing a summary form of the erg file in a text edit.

This workout:

Becomes this:

"1m@66   1m@88   8m@121   1830s@143   2m@220r2m@143   4x30s@281r30s@121   30s@281r5m@121   10x30s@281r30s@121   1m@88   5m@88"

But... this workout:

Becomes this !

 "214s@99   219s@149   76s@187   21s@200   37s@187   29s@200   84s@187   132s@193   78s@200   17s@250   27s@225   13s@200   19s@250   27s@225   50s@200   18s@250   252s@212   156s@225   117s@212   27s@225   19s@230   39s@212   61s@225   30s@237   91s@244   37s@225   10s@250   9s@225   16s@250   31s@237   13s@244   30s@225   27s@275r376s@99   27s@200   33s@225   37s@212   12s@225   31s@212   12s@225   28s@212   13s@225   22s@212   7s@200   31s@225   37s@212   13s@200   39s@212   12s@225   99s@212   17s@250   90s@237   16s@244   76s@225   31s@200   25s@212   30s@200   9s@225   59s@212   76s@237   28s@200   13s@250   36s@212   25s@237   187s@225   24s@275r286s@99   159s@237   41s@250r387s@99"

SO.

I think editing a "summarised" ERG file alongside the GUI may help in some situations, but it really depends on the kind of workout you are editing. Maybe good for tidying things up ?

[9606]

Much prefer % rather than w.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 18 January 2016 13:18:25 UTC, 9606 wrote:

Much prefer % rather than w.

Yeah, me too.

I've updated the properties button to show/hide the workout details on the right (which can be edited).

I'm looking to make the hover highlight the row in the rhs table so you can work interchangeably between gui/text.

Will keep playing with it.

Mark 

[Mark Liversedge]

A new demo of the workout editor, here:

https://vimeo.com/152278941

It lets me use the 'qwkcode' to create/edit workouts with text instead of graphically.

I'm finding that really nice, but easier editing an erg file in tabular format(cut / paste / delete is much easier).

It also shows the use of PD model to highlight "impossible" intervals and running the workout in the editor.

As ever, really interested in your feedback and ideas.

Mark

[Erik Botö]

Mark,

It looks absolutely awesome to me! I love the quick code support, and in combination with the graphical editing it must surely work for all types of users. You've done an awesome job! 

Cheers,

Erik

[Onya Bike]

Hi Mark,

What you’ve managed to achieve in such a short time is really impressive!

A few thoughts...

Having spent some time recently playing with MRC and ERG files I think your qwkcode format is a revelation!

It would great if GC included some sort of conversion tool, or export/import functionality, to create qwkcode instructions from existing ERG or MRC files, and vice-versa.  If GC supported this conversion functionality I suspect it would also entice new users, who just wanted to utilize an easy way of creating ERG/MRC files, to take a look at GC.  Once they see the complete GC package they’ll soon realize it provides so much more and the GC user-base will expand.

I far prefer working with %FTP rather than absolute values, so it would be great if qwkcode supported %FTP based instructions as well as absolute power values.  Perhaps there could be something like a user configuration setting that forced GC to round up/down to the nearest watt (or 5 watts, or whatever) when %FTP is entered in a qwkcode instruction – perhaps this would help with the precision issues you mentioned?

I’m not sure how user comments/instructions could be incorporated into qwkcode, but if that was possible I could see qwkcode becoming the preferred method of creating ERG or MRC files (or even an eventual replacement!).

Thanks again for such a superb product and forward thinking development!

[Chris Cleeland]

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Mark Liversedge <liver...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, 18 January 2016 12:30:03 UTC, Arend teRaa wrote:

Looks great! How about an option to specify watts rather than just a percent of CP?  5x5@250wr3@....  

I have eneded up back at absolute values since percentages need lots of precision and it makes it horrible to edit.

Is that precision really justified?  Considering that the anchor point (whether CP or FTP) is not a fixed value from day-to-day, but rather hovers within a range, the same is true for derived values. Why not just round to the nearest multiple of 5W?

 

--

Chris Cleeland

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tue, 19 Jan, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Chris Cleeland <chris.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is that precision really justified?  Considering that the anchor point (whether CP or FTP) is not a fixed value from day-to-day, but rather hovers within a range, the same is true for derived values. Why not just round to the nearest multiple of 5W?

Its the round trip that has the problem, what you create -> %age -> what you create.

I'm looking at how to get around it :)

Mark

[9606]

Can the left hand section (where the workout are listed) include folders. It would be nice to group folders by either time or type, user defineable. I have many .mrc and .crs files that I tire of scrolling through.

On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 2:17:03 AM UTC-6, Mark Liversedge wrote:

Over the holiday break I'm gonna work on bottom up planning. 

This means looking at the workouts you will perform each day. Selecting a workout from a library, editing it or even creating a new one and then putting it into the daily plan.

There are lots of implicit features in the above;

a) we have a daily load plan that defines a target for each day

b) we have a workout library we can browse

c) we have a daily workout plan that we will update

d) we have a workout editor to create or edit workouts

None of those features exist (but are planned for v4) !

So given I have two weeks I'm going to start at the bottom (d) write our workout designer. Looking around I see that both TrainerRoad and Zwift now have decent graphical editors, and PerfPro has a workout editor rather akin the Workout Wizard we already have in GC.The old Intellicoach ERG+ editor was fairly neat too, but doesn't seem to exist anymore online (at least I cannot find it).

But I want to take a slightly different approach.

Ultimately I want to:

a) Integrate with train view - edit in-line direct on the chart, rather than opening up a dialog

b) Make it easy and fast - pick and drag points quickly

c) Align to science - plot W'bal, Time In Zone, Stress etc as you design

d) Integrate with our CloudDB - the new GAE web resource Joern has developed for sharing charts.

So I'm going to have a crack at this over the next 2 weeks and will share progress here.

[Stéphane Frati]

Hello
as this is my first post, I'd like to congratulate the team for this wonderfull software: kudos !

If I could add a suggestion, a bell ring (or any sound) played when a LAP is triggered would be interesting.

My explainations: the synthax of the .mrc file is fixed (BELL does not exist, I believe). 

In the meantime, I'd like to have an sort of hearing of what is happening in background of my computer when I read my mails in the meantime I use my hometrainer and GC.

So, a checkbox to produce a bell ring/sound each time a new LAP is reached in the workout would be good.

PS: It might be interesting to have a synthetised voice telling the text or power for handicaped people who would want to use it.

PS2: sorry for my poor english/french.

ad'ciao

Stephano

[Will]

Incredible improvement. I eagerly await the next development build! I really like the quick code. May I suggest that text notifications (during the workout) be added in the quick code area?

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 19 January 2016 21:22:51 UTC, Will wrote:

Incredible improvement.  I eagerly await the next development build!  I really like the quick code.  May I suggest that text notifications (during the workout) be added in the quick code area?

And lap markers too.

Mark 

[Julian]

WOW!

This is really something else, Mark.

Is there any insight as to how workouts created with absolute values will work when shared with another user with a different CP or uploaded to something like ErgDB or another workout sharing server...

A thought with respect to organizing workouts as I can see a central server being totally inundated with individual workouts- is there any way to allow a user to add tags to a workout so that they can be classified and searched or even filtered: I'll tag all my workouts with #Julian2016 or #Julian2016Base1 so that I can quickly filter out the workouts I don't want to see...

[Will]

I'd assume it will work like the current system, where the absolute values are in there, but your CP is in there as well so it can scale to the CP of anyone using the ERG.

Will

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 19 January 2016 22:42:28 UTC, Julian wrote:

Is there any insight as to how workouts created with absolute values will work when shared with another user with a different CP or uploaded to something like ErgDB or another workout sharing server...

I haven't implemented save yet.

It will support the current mechanism to write a .ERG with an FTP=xxx value so it can be scaled making it compatible with TrainerRoad. We will support .MRC as well they are relative. I also spoke with Jon at Zwift and will support their ZWO format. 

I don't know what to do about .pgmf (Tacx).

 

A thought with respect to organizing workouts as I can see a central server being totally inundated with individual workouts- is there any way to allow a user to add tags to a workout so that they can be classified and searched or even filtered: I'll tag all my workouts with #Julian2016 or #Julian2016Base1 so that I can quickly filter out the workouts I don't want to see...

I will be adding metadata to the workout, thats what the properties thing was originally for. Which means adding a section to .ERG etc that other tools won't parse (but should ignore).

Workout Library management is the next step. Thumbnails, search/filter etc are all part of that. 

Mark

[Onya Bike]

Random thought... Some sort of workout generator would be very cool.

Where you select the type of workout – recovery, easy, medium, sweet-spot, hard, insane etc. - and total workout duration, and GC builds a workout with suitable warm-up and cool-down based on your current (or user defined) CP and W’ values.

Would probably be best suited for the harder sessions, where the interval durations and power targets are tailored to push you to your theoretical limit, but could be useful for easier sessions; particularly if generator adds randomized slopes and power target fluctuations during longer intervals.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Wednesday, 20 January 2016 11:23:48 UTC, Onya Bike wrote:

Where you select the type of workout – recovery, easy, medium, sweet-spot, hard, insane etc. - and total workout duration, and GC builds a workout with suitable warm-up and cool-down based on your current (or user defined) CP and W’ values.

Sounds like a job for the existing workout wizard.

 

Would probably be best suited for the harder sessions, where the interval durations and power targets are tailored to push you to your theoretical limit, but could be useful for easier sessions; particularly if generator adds randomized slopes and power target fluctuations during longer intervals.

I'd like to make 'jitter' a function when you execute a workout. So you can apply it to any workout to simulate a bit of 'road-feel'.

Mark 

[9606]

Yes, jitter would be nice. I have tried to include jitter in my .mrc files but it is a tedious process.

[Sebastian Zdyb]

Hi,

Is there any way in GC workout view to setup the interface similar to trainer road or Perf pro Studio, where we can have all the relevant numbers/charts at the bottom of the screen or top, so it is easier to watch web videos like YouTube etc.?

I can't minimize GC window enough to have also browser open at the bottom or top.

Thanks,

Sebastian

--

[Mark Liversedge]

On Friday, 22 January 2016 21:20:53 UTC, Sebastian Zdyb wrote:

Is there any way in GC workout view to setup the interface similar to trainer road or Perf pro Studio, where we can have all the relevant numbers/charts at the bottom of the screen or top, so it is easier to watch web videos like YouTube etc.?

I can't minimize GC window enough to have also browser open at the bottom or top.

You can remove and resize the charts and dials that are shown and the size of the window.

Mark 

[Brian Larson]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 11:14:15 AM UTC-5, Mark Liversedge wrote:

On Tuesday, 29 December 2015 16:09:16 UTC, Onya Bike wrote:

Another vote for adding the ability to drop out of ERG mode for selected sections of the workout (e.g. for FTP tests with structured warm-up/cool-down).

Yes, switching modes is cool -- just not supported in the standard ERG format, not sure how to handle it. 

For anyone following along I am open to ideas on this .. I am very pedestrian myself. Pyramids and sufferfest are my staple on the turbo.

It seems to me it doesn't matter how GC implements it, as long as the .erg files are backwards compatible.

For example,  the slope mode trigger could be a comment after the standard wattage line, and GC will obey it as well as display the wattage you should be aiming at (or above) as a dashed or partially transparent line. If comments aren't supported, GC could just add an additional header line giving the times for switching to slope mode. I (and many others) will really appreciate being able to do FTP tests with controlled warmups with this.

Btw, It seems like you were saying elsewhere that one could press the -/+ keys while training to decrease/increase the overall scale, but this has no effect on Mac.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Sunday, 24 January 2016 09:18:05 UTC, Brian Larson wrote:

Btw, It seems like you were saying elsewhere that one could press the -/+ keys while training to decrease/increase the overall scale, but this has no effect on Mac.

That's using the buttons on a computrainer handlebar controller.

We badly need to add keyboard controls when playing a workout.

Mark 

[stsc...@gmail.com]

Since the new workout editor has replaced the old chart in train mode, I've noticed that scrolling up/down still allows scaling the workout up and down when actively training, but it doesn't have any effect besides changing the display.

I'm unsure what the ideal/preferred UI would be here: allow scaling by scrolling and have the changes applied live, but not saved? "Lock" the workout during active training but allow unlocking for on the fly changes? 

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 1 February 2016 23:24:17 UTC, sts wrote:

Since the new workout editor has replaced the old chart in train mode, I've noticed that scrolling up/down still allows scaling the workout up and down when actively training, but it doesn't have any effect besides changing the display.

I'm unsure what the ideal/preferred UI would be here: allow scaling by scrolling and have the changes applied live, but not saved? "Lock" the workout during active training but allow unlocking for on the fly changes? 

Yes, it should adjust on the fly.

Mark 

[Nenad]

Hello Mark,

Thank you for your great work. I have used GC 4 and new Workout Designer for one month now, but I did not find possibility to create Laps in new WD???

Am I wrong?

Regrads,
Nenad

[Mark Liversedge]

Its not in there yet, the progress is mapped here: https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/issues/702

Mark 

[Jean Div]

This all looks great! I had made a very hacky way for +/- using excel and copy/paste (attached for anyone that is curious). This is much more elegant. Would be great to have some kind of a quantitative measure as to how much +/- - either a %age or an adjusted FTP? Think I have posted elsewhere about this. Not nagging.. just seemed relevant :-)

A few other stray thoughts.. I can see myself using the 'Quick Code' the most, and then dragging to tweak the last 10%. VERY smart implementation! I was wondering.. could you build the quick code to include more than just outright watts, so for example..

20m@100 - (standard) 20m @ 100W

20m@Z5 - 20m @ the mid-point of Zone 5 wattage

20m@160bpm - 20m @ 160 HR

20m@Z5HR -  20m @ the mid-point of Zone 5 wattage

Also, when the workout is saved in 3.3, all the data fields are blank. It's a little useful to have the Saved Workout name as the Workout Title, by default.

Keep up the good work!

Jean

[Nathan Townsend]

Ideas for development of the workout designer.....

I think it could benefit from a "chart options" settings box as per other graphs in GC.  This could include the usual features such as

1. Manually set x-axis and y-axis range.  I found that using the autoscroll function to increase the y-axis it kept jumping suddenly up to 6000 W.  I couldn't figure out hwo to adjust the x-axis to less than 60 mins. I would be nice to just be able to set the axis manually.

2. Choose what to show and not to show (eg: workout only, W'bal curve, P(t) curve, summary metrics such as TSS, IF, time in power zones, time in W'bal zones etc).

3. W'bal model selector (integral versus differential). 

[Erik Botö]

I've submitted a pull request for adding laps using qwkcode, https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/pull/2045. I'll be happy to change the way I added it if you have any feedback on either the code or qwkcode addition, right now it's done by adding "L" to the end of the qwkcode lines you want to split into laps. Still no way of graphically adding laps yet though.

Cheers,

Erik

 

Mark 

[Mark Liversedge]

Yes, I saw that. 

Does it create lap markers for each of the 3 intervals you'd get with "3x1200@300r300@100" ?

Mark 

[Erik Botö]

 Yes, a lap marker at the start/end of each interval/rest period.

Cheers,

Erik

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 9 August 2016 22:03:45 UTC+1, Erik Botö wrote:

 

 Yes, a lap marker at the start/end of each interval/rest period.

I've merged it in, but you should check the save/load because the markers don't match before and after save.

Mark 

[Will]

Thanks for adding this!

Will

[Erik Botö]

Will do! Do you have an example of when this happens? 

[Erik Botö]

Ah, it's then the workout starts with a lap. Does it make sense to have a lap at time zero, or should I just make sure that there's no lap at time zero at all (loading or editing qwkcode)? 

[Mark Liversedge]

On Thursday, 11 August 2016 11:36:02 UTC+1, Erik Botö wrote:

Will do! Do you have an example of when this happens? 

Before save:

After save:

Its a tricky one, the qwcode is derived by looking at the Erg file and condensing it as much as possible. It tries to be clever, but the lap marke are breaking it.

See: QString WorkoutWidget::qwkcode()

Mark  

[Mark Liversedge]

On Thursday, 11 August 2016 11:43:16 UTC+1, Erik Botö wrote:

Ah, it's then the workout starts with a lap. Does it make sense to have a lap at time zero, or should I just make sure that there's no lap at time zero at all (loading or editing qwkcode)? 

I think the qwkcode needs to be smarter at condensing 4x .. sequences

Mark 

[Erik Botö]

I thinks your example shows two problems. 

1. The lap markers doesn't match before/after.

2. The intervals are split up into multiple qwkcode lines.

Number 2 is due to the interval load being too low so it's not considered an effort in the qwkcode handling, try using e.g. 300 watts intervals and #1 is the only remaining problem. I thought you had a threshold for intervals on purpose, haven't looked into to that part of the code in details to know if it's needed or not. I'll be happy to look into both things though, it's fun to be coding a bit again. 

Cheers,

Erik  

[Mark Liversedge]

Yes! So basically I just highlighted my own bug :)

I originally thought recovery should be below threshold if the effort is above, but actually it doesn't matter -- its all about on/off not over/under. We should fix that - are you looking at it?

On the markers then yeah there is nothing wrong with the first interval starting at the beginning of the workout.

Cheers

Mark

[stephane.frati]

Hello,

Just a simple remark : would it be possible to add a « bip sound” when a lap is reached ?

 

De : golden-che...@googlegroups.com [mailto:golden-che...@googlegroups.com] De la part de Mark Liversedge
Envoyé : jeudi 11 août 2016 13:47
À : golden-cheetah-users <golden-che...@googlegroups.com>
Objet : [Golden-Cheetah-Users] Re: Workout Designer

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[Nenad]

Hello,

I am common user od Train mode in GC. Adding laps does not work with me. I am on lattest V4-DEV1607. After adding L on the end of interval, I am losing this interval. After trying to save GS crashes and stops work

[Mark Liversedge]

Its not in the July development build, since it was committed in August.

It shouldn't crash though!

Mark

[Nenad]

OK. I am waiting you for upload Avgust development build.

[Erik Botö]

I'll look into both things! 

Cheers,

Erik 

[Daniel Cotrim]

Hi. Checkout: https://trainerdb-84bdb.firebaseapp.com

I started recently a workout creator project for web, that we can visually create, edit and share workouts.
Currently, it's an alpha release, we can play with.
I used lot of ideas from GC, and data from www.73summits.com.

My intention is to make it public and free.

In parallel, I'm working on a training app for Android that will work with the site , pulling and getting the training data, allowing to view and share. 

The app is already running, soon I will provide a link on the site . Initially it will work with the ANT + , cadence , speed and HR and the GC power curves .

I appreciate any suggestion or opnion.

Thank's.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Friday, 12 August 2016 21:09:14 UTC+1, Daniel Cotrim wrote:

Hi. Checkout: https://trainerdb-84bdb.firebaseapp.com

I started recently a workout creator project for web, that we can visually create, edit and share workouts.
Currently, it's an alpha release, we can play with.
I used lot of ideas from GC, and data from www.73summits.com.

My intention is to make it public and free.

Cool stuff Daniel !

Its nice and easy to use, and impressed you got the qwkcode thing working :)

 

In parallel, I'm working on a training app for Android that will work with the site , pulling and getting the training data, allowing to view and share. 

The app is already running, soon I will provide a link on the site . Initially it will work with the ANT + , cadence , speed and HR and the GC power curves .

Keep posting here on your progress, sounds really interesting.

BTW, if you're open source feel free to re-use any of the GC code if it helps.

Mark

[TJDunnigan]

Hi Daniel,

Your site is very nice. The designer is intuitive to use and presents a clean and clear look.

It would be nice if the created workouts could be better organized. Like the erg.db site, one finds a ton of workouts, some clearly good, others seemingly goofy or so athlete specific they are of no use.

The search function on your site is good, but since each workout is poorly documented its functioning is limited. 

To me, it would be nice if the workouts could be tagged by creator in a couple of different, but limited, ways (e.g. L5 intervals, threshold training, recovery) so that one could choose from a menu and see a more specific selection. 

Tim

[Daniel Cotrim]

Hi Tim, Thank's for feedback. I'm very happy that you liked the design. Actually, I am not very good on it. I appreciate your suggestions because I've been working on the tags and search
features in the last days. I just published a new version with some improvements in theses areas. Tell me what you think.

Daniel

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[Jean Div]

Looks VERY smart Tim

Good work!

[Neil Pugh]

Today I completed my first own designed workout with lap markers attached. Such an easy and intuitive system, a huge addition to the usuability of Train mode, love it.

[Mark Liversedge]

Cool. Lets see the workout :)

[Neil Pugh]

A bit dull but here goes.

[Neil Pugh]

And this is for today