Running !

[Mark Liversedge]

OK, so I succumbed to a Garmin FR620 this lunchtime.

So running metrics are likely to appear soon.

Anyone got any ideas on what stuff would be "cool" ?

Mark

[Ale Martinez]

Glad you ask ;-)

This is my short wish list to use GC for running:

1) Pace zones based on threshold pace (or VDOT)

2) GOVSS/RunScore (http://www.physfarm.com/govss.pdf), rTSS also may be interesting but I think the algorithm it is not public.

3) Model(s) on CP chart using speed (CV/AWD, Riegel, etc)

[Ben Blizard]

Oh, so AWESOME!  

I've got a 620, and really believe a correlation between cadence, ground contact time, and how well the run goes

(my "belief" may be wrong or not-scientifically-proven, but still, I think it).

Getting into : http://www.runscribe.com/, which will have more, different metrics.

Can you make the GC running metric import flexible?  My impression is that the question of "what are the important running metrics?" is still getting sorted out.

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[Mark Liversedge]

Love the rose charts. Am starting to actually enjoy running so suspect lots more will come over the NH winter !

Mark

[Mark Liversedge]

Yes, will work through that.

I think the first thing to do is to find a way of differentiating between a bike ride and a run; I suggest that the "Sport" metadata field be used and initially will assume it is a bike ride unless it contains the word "Run" or "Run" translated into the local language ?

I'm working through support for the new running dynamic metrics in the FR 620 .FIT file at present....

Mark

[Ale Martinez]

That scheme would be compatible with current running data imported from WKO+, which is a plus, IMHO.

Also we would need pace/speed zones and it would be interesting to have them parameterized for sport, even when they are not very useful for cycling -indoor track could be an exception- they are also useful for swimming.

The same applies for HR zones and, perhaps, power zones.

[Martin Wifling]

Hi Mark,

I would love to see something similar to the Quadrant Analysis Chart - but I do not know yet how useful it would be.

The QA should be relatively straight forward for running on flats. It should show if it is easier to run higher cadences but shorter stride lengths or vice versa and wheres your personal optimum or where you need improvement (and you can focus in training on stride length or cadence).
It gets more tricky when adding altitude. Maybe a loophole could be using an algorithm like NGP which takes altitude into account. Anyway, an algorithm which provides the analog metric to Power is crucial. I dont know if the maths behind NGP is open to the public (and I doubt you will get it from TP).

As Garmin is not so strong in the runnning market, it might be relevant to support Polar gear better (Polar Cadence sensor not supported yet, but Garmin is ...)

[Ale Martinez]

I think power calculations in GOVSS (http://www.physfarm.com/govss.pdf) are open and xPace, which is back-calculated as the constant pace which would give the same Lactate-Normalized Power, looks pretty similar to NGP

[Ale Martinez]

BTW, long time ago I played with the idea to add power data to running workouts using GOVSS algorithm to be able to use the nice power analysis tools in GC for running, I even built a prototype  data-processor to add the power series automagically, but I abandoned it because I have to use a separate athlete due to the lack of sport specific power zones.

[Martin Wifling]

GOVSS, thats it.

I hope Dr. Phil will still be cooperative, even if GC gets closer to Raceday when including running features?

[Mark Liversedge]

Dr Phil already gave the thumbs up its just me being a slacker and not implementing it !

[H Rumpole]

Hooray!

1.  Normalized graded pace or equivalent--

2.  Rtss or equivalent, or just permit the conversion of running times and intensities to TSS based on VDOT.

3.  Vdot/pace equivalents.

4.  Perhaps some cadence info from wahoo tickrs or footpods?

One other (unrelated) suggestion--permit typing notes directly into the calendar entry in diary view?.  In other words, click on the day, have a cursor pop up, and type away. 

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Mark Liversedge <liver...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dr Phil already gave the thumbs up its just me being a slacker and not implementing it !

[Dr. Philip Skiba]

When has Dr. Phil not been cooperative? ;-)

Always happy to help you guys out. I don’t have a whole lot of time to participate in the actual development and troubleshooting process, but it seems like you guys are very good at that anyway.

Onward, Cheetah Riders!

Phil



--

Dr. Philip Skiba
PhysFarm Training Systems, LLC

The best triathletes in the world are using RaceDay Apollo to manage their training.

Find out why at http://www.physfarm.com/apollo

[Mark Liversedge]

We wobble about on your shoulders sir !

Right, plan of action:

1. Add support for the garmin running dynamics fields to fit/tcx/json file formats (to ensure no data lost) [done]

2. Add mechanism to identify if activity is a ride or a run [next]

3. Add mechanism to set Pace zones and Critical Velocity ala Power zones/CP

4. Add Pace zone summary to ride summary

5. Add pace to cp chart (and cpx and therefore LTM charts)

6. Add pace, running dynamics to ride plot

Draw breath and see where we want to go next, but expect;

7. GOVSS / RunScore

8. CV/AWD models

9. Sport specific HR zones (cycle vs run)

10. add running cadence et al to scatter charts etc

... and so on !

Mark

[tigg...@gmail.com]

Perhaps the triathletes out here could club together and get you a swim watch for Christmas...

I don't use many running metrics but look at VDOT to estimate what I would expect to do a particular distance in.  So, for example, if I can do 21.1k in 90 mins then I could expect to do 10k in 40:39 and 42.2k in 3:07.  I use this website to get the numbers and training paces: http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

Good luck!

[Mark Liversedge]

On Friday, 26 September 2014 05:28:59 UTC+1, tigg...@gmail.com wrote:

Perhaps the triathletes out here could club together and get you a swim watch for Christmas...

NEVER. GONNA. HAPPEN.

I *hate* swimming. We climbed onto the land millions of years ago, if you want to get wet, have a bath.

:)

 

I don't use many running metrics but look at VDOT to estimate what I would expect to do a particular distance in.  So, for example, if I can do 21.1k in 90 mins then I could expect to do 10k in 40:39 and 42.2k in 3:07.  I use this website to get the numbers and training paces: http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

Ace, the whole CP / CV / VDOT thing is a good fit, nice to know there is some established science to fall back on.

Thanks for the link, ironically, IIRC Sean originally called the project GoldenCheetah after Jack Daniels, so we're coming full circle :)

Mark

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 23 September 2014 20:23:27 UTC+1, Ale Martinez wrote:

1) Pace zones based on threshold pace (or VDOT)

I am looking at this and am interested to know if the pace zones should be about race distances and reps instead of some generic intensity label.

e.g. 

Marathon pace

Half Marathon pace

10k pace

5k pace

Mile Pace

or

Recovery .. does that even make sense for running !? ;)

Endurance 

Tempo

Threshold

Vo2max

Neuro

And either way, any recommendation on formula used to generate, I could probably regress from the VDOT tables but some help would be useful.

Also, I assume pace will be minute/mile or minute/km depending upon preference (which is probably different to cycling pref ?)

Mark

[tigg...@gmail.com]

Here's a spreadsheet of VDOT that someone made earlier: http://www.electricblues.com/html/runpro.html

In terms of mins per mile or k, it's both - sorry.  My preference is mins per k but people I go running with like it per mile.

In terms of names, if you play with VDOT then it makes sense to have the Easy, Marathon, Threshold, Interval and Repetition paces that Jack Daniels uses.

Back to the spreadsheet I linked to.  This does a lot of other things (way too much data!) like age/sex grading (so how does an 18 min 5k for a 23 year old compare with a 63 year old), Joel Friel Training Zones and what might happen if it gets hotter.

I've not done any programming since 1990 (other than a bit of VBA) but if there is anything I can help with let me know.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 27 September 2014 07:21:15 UTC+1, tigg...@gmail.com wrote:

Here's a spreadsheet of VDOT that someone made earlier: http://www.electricblues.com/html/runpro.html

Ah thats really useful -- and I think we can use Daniel's Points to unify riding and running too (I will need to adjust it to work with running but that should be pretty easy to do).

 

In terms of mins per mile or k, it's both - sorry.  My preference is mins per k but people I go running with like it per mile.

Yeah, I think I will add that as a setting in the pace zone config. I'm the same, use KM on the bike but miles for running pace (but km for running distance!).

 

In terms of names, if you play with VDOT then it makes sense to have the Easy, Marathon, Threshold, Interval and Repetition paces that Jack Daniels uses.

Back to the spreadsheet I linked to.  This does a lot of other things (way too much data!) like age/sex grading (so how does an 18 min 5k for a 23 year old compare with a 63 year old), Joel Friel Training Zones and what might happen if it gets hotter.

I will utilise the adjustment for age/sex as that makes a lot of sense.

 

I've not done any programming since 1990 (other than a bit of VBA) but if there is anything I can help with let me know.

If you're a runner then feed ideas and pointers to the science.

I'm going to work on adding pacing zones this weekend, but also want to make the 'rides' view change when you select a run. So the chart setup for looking at a ride is different to when looking at a run -- if I'm canny I can make it invisible to users that only ride a bike... adding running is a big deal and I don't want it to 'spoil' the experience for cyclists !!

Mark

[mshalett]

Up late trying to figure out why I don't see the model data in my CP for 2014 data?

Saw your post!  Very exciting, lots of run data to import when it is implemented.

1) recovery pace is very applicable and suitable just as in cycling

2) might want to get a feeler out there for others using Polar watches for running besides Garmin?  they have good data as well including a Running Index which is an efficiency index, i.e. work vs distance, of course cadence and stride length, all of these for the RS800 run and CX, and using the now almost-orphaned desktop Polar ProTrainer 5 software developed for heart rate training

[Mark Liversedge]

I'm starting to get a bit uncomfortable linking pace zones to VDOT and the 'Daniels way'.

Critical Velocity is another different mechanism that some might want to use.

I think the best way to do this is to set some default pace zones and let folks adjust them like we do with power and HR.

That way, you can use any mechanism you like and GC doesn't mandate it.

Mark 

[Luther Gulseth]

Yes, can I like this idea? I don't see the "Like" button :) It could (should?) be tied to LTHR as a percentage. Also I would suggest allowing for a separate LTHR for running vs. cycling as my running LTHR is about 8bpm lower than on bike. I would have to spend some serious time run training to hold a 174-184bmp (177 ave) like I can for a 60min Cyclocross race.

Could it also be built (and maybe this could be for bike also?) to give the user the option to allow GC to auto-adjust (or prompt) as fitness improves? i.e. as run pace (or bike power) increases for the same HR, it could be assumed that one is getting more fit. This might also prompt the option of GC asking the user if they have tested LTHR recently, say after 3-4 weeks of continued pace/power improvement?

In Christ crucified,
Luther

--

[Luther Gulseth]

OH, I failed to mention that I'm VERY excited that you're working on this. I have two winters worth of run training in GC ready for the new system. 

If you need any test files with GPS & footpod, I have an interval workout coming up that includes every pace from sprint to warm-up/cool-down. 

In Christ crucified,
Luther

[Ale Martinez]

A good candidate for default zones are the ones in Dr. Skiba's 2nd book, since they are aligned with the ones already in use power en GC:

If the user set Daniels' T-Pace as LT Run Pace they are also a pretty good match for Daniels ones.

[Jon Beverley]

Love the new pace zones Mark. Just built from commit on the 14th - good work. ;-)

Looks like it is rounding to the nearest kmph in the athlete screen. Would it be better to 1dp?

[Mark Liversedge]

In config ?

Yeah .. there is a pending update to fix how we maintain zones.

The zones are more precise, its just the display thats rounded up.

Its something I'll come back to, I figured most people change the defaiults and let them get calculated so there's probably only 1 person in the entire world that sets bespoke zones for different time periods !

(I think its a daft feature)

Mark

[Jon Beverley]

OK wasn't sure if it was just a display issue or not.

Agree about the amending from defaults being little used.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Thursday, 25 September 2014 19:57:52 UTC+1, Mark Liversedge wrote:

Right, plan of action:

1. Add support for the garmin running dynamics fields to fit/tcx/json file formats (to ensure no data lost) [done]

2. Add mechanism to identify if activity is a ride or a run [next]

3. Add mechanism to set Pace zones and Critical Velocity ala Power zones/CP

4. Add Pace zone summary to ride summary

5. Add pace to cp chart (and cpx and therefore LTM charts)

6. Add pace, running dynamics to ride plot

I've done all of these now -- apart from 5 that now doesn't make sense to me -- we already have speed.

Now I could add 'Pace' as an option and just show speed with a pace axis ?

Other than that, where next -- what should I add ?

Mark

PS: Also added all the running dynamics to scatter and 3d plot. 

[Ale Martinez]

I agree it would be enough to be able to show speed in pace units in CP-chart, enabling Zone Shading would be nice.

In the ride chart also it would be useful to show speed with a pace units axis when it is a running activity.

Would be interesting to be able to enable Shade Zones, Show in Zones and Use Polarized Zones in Speed Histogram and to be able to show the axis in pace units.

BTW, pace zones works very nice! Perhaps would be a good idea to change the defaults to Dr Skiba guidelines for pace instead of the ones for power, but it's a minor detail.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Friday, 17 October 2014 20:14:02 UTC+1, Ale Martinez wrote:

Would be interesting to be able to enable Shade Zones, Show in Zones and Use Polarized Zones in Speed Histogram and to be able to show the axis in pace units.

Cool -- I'll do histogram next.

 

BTW, pace zones works very nice! Perhaps would be a good idea to change the defaults to Dr Skiba guidelines for pace instead of the ones for power, but it's a minor detail.

What are the recommendations ?

Should be really easy to change the default values.

Mark

[Ale Martinez]

[olesendan]

Hi MArk.

This is really great news. I have a really old post about this.

I do not know anything about programming, but I do knoe a bit about running and runners. I think it would by a mistake to tie things to only jack D. In the running community, there are servel ways of use training zones. So the best thing would be, to let the use define for him self. ex. pace zones runners can use up to 10 different zones, because the diff. in pace is so small between diff. distances.

I really suprised that running is goming to GC. but when I get a hold of my self, I will help with ideas.


Greetings from Denmark
Dan Olesen

[olesendan]

Hi Mark.

Have you tied running up to your new W'bal. That would be really useful, because a lot of the running quality sessions are intervals. and also when one wants to plan session in the future.

Greetings from Denmark
Dan Olesen

[olesendan]

Yes, this is the way to do it. There is simply to many diff ways of interprenting zones in running.

Greetings from Denmark
Dan Olesen

[massarob.info]

cool features indeed;
I build, and it's pretty straight forward even if I never used Linux/Ubuntu, based on the new git/sourcs files but..
OT
can anyone help me with the Windows version?

Il giorno martedì 23 settembre 2014 19:39:41 UTC+2, Mark Liversedge ha scritto:

OK, so I succumbed to a Garmin FR620 this lunchtime.

So running metrics are likely to appear soon.

Anyone got any ideas on what stuff would be "cool" ?

Mark

[Derek Hung]

How about rTSS so us triathlete can track run and bike stress both separate and together?

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 1 November 2014 06:44:00 UTC, Derek Hung wrote:

How about rTSS so us triathlete can track run and bike stress both separate and together?

Unlikely. But we will implement a running stress metric.

 

[Hwangnyc]

Hey Mark,

Any idea when the running feature will be available for testing?

[Mark Liversedge]

Hi,

Gareth builds development builds all the time, check there:

http://goldencheetah.stand2surf.net

Mark

[Ale Martinez]

Shade Zones and Show in Zones is enabled for Pace in Speed Histogram, just in case someone wants to give it a try.

[Ale Martinez]

Polarized zones for Pace (and HR) is done, I'm not sure on the pace units thing yet, so I will take a look at CP chart first, shading and CV/exp model(s) would be the target.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 18 October 2014 18:26:27 UTC+1, olesendan wrote:

Have you tied running up to your new W'bal. That would be really useful, because a lot of the running quality sessions are intervals. and also when one wants to plan session in the future.

Greetings from Denmark
Dan Olesen

Hi,

Its not /my/ model, it is Dr Skiba et al. I just wrote some code :)

But I agree it would be cool to try and use the same concept for running.

And to help there is a Critical Velocity Model (D' and CV) that we /could/ apply this to for running without having to jump through too many hoops. 

I have no idea if W'bal /should/ be applied to running, but it might be fun to try and see what happens?

(we can always remove it if its not valid)

Mark  

[olesendan]

Hi Mark.

From what I have read in different studies about the CP concept. Them it should be useful for both cycling, running, swimming and Rowing, when using Distance instead of watts. That is aleast my understanding of the original litterature. And with the modified formula with sevel Tau's(from velodoc I think?) it should be able to ajust for all the differencies in runners. What do du think?

Greetings from Denmark
Dan Olesen

[Kevin in MD]

Using critical pace for running or swimming or whatever sport you like is well established. Probably the most info is written on swimming but it is definitely used for running. 

Instead of W' you have D', but it's all the same math. Instead of joules per second it's meters per second. But then most people invert to give the results as pace per mile or per km.

You could also use the run power calculation in Phil's GOVSS and then keep the critical power and W'. I think that's too clever by half for this application since even if you do all the calculations in power, you'd have to convert back to equivalent minutes per mile on flat ground (xPace) for people to make sense of it. 

[Martin Wifling]

How are the running workouts distinguished from biking?
I have installed the latest development build (22/11) and recorded today a run with my Garmin Edge 705, but the running metrics are not calculated? Update of my user produced not problem during installation. What am I missing?

[Mark Liversedge]

If the file has a sport of Run* or contains garmin running dynamics data then we recognise it as a run.

Happy to add other mechanisms but these seem the fairest.

Mark

* or translated to equivalent in the language used (once translations are done)

[Martin Wifling]

I´ve tried "Run" and "Running" in Sport as this is the only option with my Edge 705, so no running dynamics in the file are present. But that does not cause GC to calculate the running metrics.
I have imported the file directly from the device and changed the Sport in GC and I did the change in Garmin Connect and exported it as tcx (see below). Neither way was succesful ...

xmlns:ns4="http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/ProfileExtension/v1">
  <Activities>
    <Activity Sport="Running">
      <Id>2014-11-23T10:28:41.000Z</Id>
      <Lap StartTime="2014-11-23T10:28:41.000Z">

Run* should work for Running and Run as well?

[Mark Liversedge]

"Run" is what we look for.

Of course depending on the metrics they will need speed, distance, altitude etc

I assume you have setup pace zones and CV ?

Mark

[Martin Wifling]

Yes, CV and Pace zones were set. Got it to work now after a restart incl. clearing the cache with all cpx files and run again!

Thanks! Looks great!

[Christian Charette]

I had renamed my "Sport" Field to "Sport Type" is there an easy way for me to rename it back to "Sport" and not have to reenter all the type of each ride? (I have a auto fill for: Road,MTB,CX,Stationary Trainer,Run).

Last time I renamed a field I lost all my data :(

Thanks

C.

[Mark Liversedge]

Hi,

No obvious way to do that.

Mark

[Christian Charette]

Do I just have to batch script the .json files or is it store elsewhere?

[Christian Charette]

I manages to change it... and it looks like it's working:

find . -type f -name \*.txt -exec sed -i.bak ‘s|Sport Type|Sport|g' {} +
find . -name \*.bak -delete (after a validation)
deleted the metricDBv3 and Index folder from the cache folder

restart GC

but now I have "Run" in "Sport" and it's not applying the Running concept to the stats or the graphs...

Christian

[Ale Martinez]

Do you have CV defined for the date range in the charts?

[Christian Charette]

I found my problem, I did have CV info but the run was from a prior date! It's working fine now :)

C.

[art...@gmail.com]

Hi Mark,

is there a way to combine TSS and GOVSS in one PMC to see the complete stress score of bike and run or I have to put the value of GOVSS into TSS to get it?

thanks
Andy

[Mark Liversedge]

We could create a metric to do that, the question is whether that is valid ?

[art...@gmail.com]

Hm, if it valid? I don´t know but how else I can see the complete stress score if I e.g ride my bike and have a run after it? Not sure if is necessary to create a metric. I am tried to set up a PMC chart where both (TSS and GOVSS) are regarded to have the complete stress score. But I haven´t been successfuly with it! Before GOVSS were avilable I calculated rTSS and put it into TSS to get it. Maybe this was wrong but the only way for me to have an overview.

[Mark Liversedge]

My question is more for Ale or Dr Skiba -- is it appropriate to mix TSS and GOVSS scores; i.e. do they represent the same thing (stress) with the same index/scale and same half-life ?

Mark

[Ale Martinez]

AFAIK the scale is the same and they are normally added to try to have a kind of total training load score, even when this practice is questionable and I don't know of any publication using combined scores. Perhaps a sligthly more general way would be to have a weighted sum with configurable weights to account for different responses.

IIRC wko+ first add TSS and rTSS to have TSScombined and then computes CTL/ATL with one set of time constants while RaceDay first computes the cumulative stress scores for each discipline, each with its own time constant, and then adds them to have combined cumulative stress scores, this second scheme seems to make more sense ,if you have nailed the time constants indepently.

[Kevin in MD]

While that is actually included in raceday (rolling them all together) it isn't a valid use. If you do two workouts today a run and bike and then add them together for a total stress score for the day, you are assuming that run stress has the same effect on bike performance as bike stress does, and vice versa. That isn't true at all. Only a single study has investigated this cross over and found some carry over of bike training stress to run performance but not vice versa, and damn if I can find it right now. 

While people seem to want to do this, it is best to leave them separate.

The question of whether run training has different decay constants than bike constants is an emphatic yes, what they should be however is a bigger question than you probably realize. To a large degree, it misses the point alltogether. 

All this came from performance modeling, which shows widely varying decay constants between athletes and between sports within athletes, the whole purpose of the effort is to see how my constants differ from yours and act on that information to specialize my raining to my own constants. 

Turns that is a big ask in several ways both practical and statistical. Andy Coggan years ago decided to establish default constants from looking at what was published at the time. That included highly trained athletes, recreational athletes and different sports. Given the constraints faced at the time that wasn't unreasonable. But it does lead us down this road where we are getting away from what performance modeling was about, finding individual constants.

My own opinion is that the constants used are too long for amateur adult cyclists,on the other hand I haven't made a case on what it should be either so i can't object too strenuously.

In the end what it means for GC, go ahead and setup different sports as separate, don't lump them together. But use the default constants for both cycling and running in the absence of something better.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 25 November 2014 17:47:18 UTC, Kevin in MD wrote:

In the end what it means for GC, go ahead and setup different sports as separate, don't lump them together. But use the default constants for both cycling and running in the absence of something better.

Makes sense. I will look at allowing different values for running and cycling.

Mark 

[olesendan]

 Hi Kevin in MD.

If wee look at it from Coggans TSS, where it "simply" is Training stress score, then it should not matter if you were doing cycling or running first in that particually day, should it? because TSS is simply an expresion for the stress you have put on the aerob systems. Or am I missing something?

But I do not know if GOVVS is build from the same paragime?

But of course, the more values we try to put in the model, the more prone for errors it will get.

[Kevin in MD]

Dan, 

While in terms of simple stress then maybe. However, implicit in the definition of any stress score is the other side of the coin, that is that a given stress affects us (usually our performance) in a known way. Unless we have some sort of idea in our mind that stress translates to changes in performance, then stress scores are of no use.

The reason we track TSS or mileage or hours spent training is that we believe that it will translate in some sort of fashion to our performance. You might think that your average tss over the past 90 days will correlate with performance for example, if i increase my 90 day average I will increase performance by the same percent. Of if I decrease my average training for the 3 days leading into the race, I will increase my performance.

In fact some people have put forth suggestions a little more complicated than the 90 day and 3 day average, and found that it kinda works. That is to say it works when looking at stress in the same sport. 

Bot how does the other sport affect it? We don't know. If I increase the 90 day average of miles pedaled, it probably will increase my performance. Got it. But what about 90 day average of miles ran? What about 90 day average overtime hours at work? What about 90 day average of meters swam? 

Unfortunately, no one knows.

So if you just add stress scores together, you are assuming that 100 points of stress from biking or running affects you the same way no matter what outcome you are looking at. It clearly doesn't.

Another extreme way to look at it, you swim for an hour at threshold pace, you bike for an hour at threshold power. Both of them make you quite tired, but which will affect your bike performance? If you add them together, you are assuming that they both affect you the same way. 

[art...@gmail.com]

Hi Kevin,

thanks for it. I got you points but this was not really the intension. The idea was not to sum up the stress score to see how my performance is overall. It´s more about how big was the impact of the training and fits the next training (doesn´t matter if biking or running) with the content (intensity, time, ...) or is the better decision to do a RECOM or perhaps get a day off. In triathlon training you run often in that question and I think this could be a good indication. I still want to use a single PMC for biking and running to see the specific affect on each typ of sport. This all based on Allen/Coggan "Training and Racing with a Power Meter" Chapter 11.

thanks and regards
Andy

[Ale Martinez]

I think the study you are referring is this one by Millet et al: Modelling the transfers of training effects on performance in elite triathletes

I agree it is better to have training loads separate and using its own time constants, no argue with that.

Notwithstanding, I think it is a good idea to have a combined stress score to have an idea of the total training load (to find out when it was too much or to try to find a correlation with overall performance), but as an addition no a replacement, in the same way you have the possibility to add training hours (or TRIMPs) corresponding to different activities and you must be careful to assign a meaning to it, but it is not forbidden by the program.

[olesendan]

Hi Alle.

I'm just saying from my understanding of what Coggan have been writing about TSS, then it is simply an Training stress score. The Idea behind the PMC, was to see the "Freshness" of an athlete. It is by it self not tied to the actual performance, is this not correct. Performance moddelling is something different and more complicated. And I do know, that wee all try to corelete the PMC to performance. But TSS is only stress not performance.

No?

I think, as you might have written earlier, that Skibba in raceday formulates this. But in his performance moddel, you have to track actual performance, and incorpurate this to the moddel, is this not correct? I think i rember this, from trying the program.

I believe, as an way to track global Training stress, an combined TSS with the possibility for it own metrics is a good way. But it is not an actual performance model. It should give an idea of, when one, should have an feel of readiness.
But as others have written, it should not be instead of individualy sports depended TSS.

Greetings from Denmark.
Dan Olesen

[Mark Liversedge]

On Wednesday, 26 November 2014 23:00:49 UTC, olesendan wrote:

I believe, as an way to track global Training stress, an combined TSS with the possibility for it own metrics is a good way. But it is not an actual performance model. It should give an idea of, when one, should have an feel of readiness.
But as others have written, it should not be instead of individualy sports depended TSS.

CTL is claimed to describe the athlete's "performance potential", so you have to ask, does your running training improve your cycling performance ?

Mark 

[Karsten]

Hi Mark,

First of all many thanks for Golden Cheetah and all the work you and other contributors have put in. I really like using the program for my cycling training and would like to try using it for running in the off-season, too. Since I am not a heavy runner, I use my Garmin Edge 800 for the gps track, speed and heart rate and have set up pace zones in GC.

Now when I import a run and set the sport to 'Run', GC displays pace information in the summary but the activity is not distinguished from the others in the PMC or other trend charts. Since my running speed, average heart rate, etc., are quite different from cycling, I would like to separate both. My cycling activities are not tagged for a specific sport since this was not necessary before.

Does GC not pick up the fact that it is a running activity because I use the Edge 800? Alternatively, is there a way I can filter for default sport, i.e. blank field, in contrast to 'Run' for the running activities or do I have to go back and mark them all as a 'Ride'?

I was thinking I could have a separate TRIMP PMC for running then if possible.

Many thanks!

Karsten



Am Dienstag, 11. November 2014 21:45:31 UTC+1 schrieb Mark Liversedge:

Hi,

Gareth builds development builds all the time, check there:

http://goldencheetah.stand2surf.net

Mark

On Tuesday, 11 November 2014 20:30:46 UTC, Hwangnyc wrote:

Hey Mark,

Any idea when the running feature will be available for testing?

[Ale Martinez]

Karsten, at the moment activities automatically tagged as runs are only those having running specific data series such us Vertical Oscillation, Ground Contact Time and Running Cadence, any other should be assigned Sport="Run" (or the translated equivalent) to be recognised a running.

You can set a filter for other-than-runs activities, even if not tagged, with Sport<>"Run" (or isRun=0) to have separate charts, PMC or any other.

[Karsten]

Ale,

Thanks for the quick answer and the explanation re running specific data series! Figured it out now and got both displayed in the sidepane under filters :-)

Kind regards

Karsten

[olesendan]

Hi Mark.

Sorry for the late reply.

As a multisport athlete, I do believe that from the stress point of view, the total stress put on your body, matters. again I'm looking at the PMC from the point, where an daily applied over 42 days, should in theory give supercompensation, if you then remove the acute stress, you should be fresh to do your best. I believe that is the original interpression of TSS, CTL, ATL. This information could be recieved with an overlay of sport specifik PMC's, is this possible? maybe it is easier, dealing with diff. time constants?

[mdwolf...@gmail.com]

CTL is claimed to describe the athlete's "performance potential", so you have to ask, does your running training improve your cycling performance ?

If you look at it from a "performance potential" view, as a triathlete I view a combined PMC as my triathlon performance potential.  I like to view my PMC as bike/run combined and I also have a bike only PMC and run only PMC.  The overall PMC is great for monitoring overall training stress.   

[Andrea Sabba]

See this link https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/issues/1164, I hope the smart recording issue I've have found with Forerunner 220 will be fixed with this incoming features.

N.B.: the smart recording is the only recording mode available on Garmin Forerunner 220.

Andrea



Il giorno martedì 23 settembre 2014 19:39:41 UTC+2, Mark Liversedge ha scritto:

OK, so I succumbed to a Garmin FR620 this lunchtime.

So running metrics are likely to appear soon.

Anyone got any ideas on what stuff would be "cool" ?

Mark

[Mark Liversedge]

Thanks Andrea,

It is an oversight on our part - it only interpolates for TCX files, not FIT.

You can run tools > fix gaps in recording to do the same thing manually until we fix it.

Mark

[Andrea Sabba]

I think it would be great have these metrics:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/using-pace-zone-index-pzi


- PZI (Pace Zone Index).
- Training Pace Zones.
- FTP (Functional Training Pace).
- rTSS (Running training stress score)

These are metrics very similar to FTP (Functional Training Power), Power Zones, TSS introduced by Allen-Coggan for cycling, WKO already include these features.

Thanks for the great work guys, GC rules!

[Ale Martinez]

Andrea, features like this are already available in the development version, here is a summary with screen captures (it's in spanish but it has few text anyway): http://www.amtriathlon.com/2014/12/analisis-del-entrenamiento-de-carrera.html

[Andrea Sabba]

Thank you Ale,

I'll try the development version.

Happy new year!

Andrea

[Steven]

Hi,

I use PZI zones (http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/using-pace-zone-index-pzi), it would be also nice, to have these in golden cheetah. 

Also some kind of best 1k, 3k,5k effort / pace would be nice, because in the plan runners can use these paces for the different kind of training, and also to check the changes in form. Is it possible to have a chart like watt/kg chart, and all the categories but for runners. I mean best marathon (world class) is 2'54'' / km, and so on, half marathon, 10k, etc.