Moxy

[Mark Liversedge]

Hey,

I've just received a Moxy Muscle Oxygen Monitor in order to add support into GoldenCheetah v3.11.

Its a small (size of a matchbox) device that straps on the leg and shines infra-red light through muscle to measure hemoglobin concentration and oxygen saturation whilst you ride.

It is likely to absolutely revolutionise the way we measure and track adaptations and the cardiovascular response to exercise; when combined with HR and Power data it is going to be very powerful. There is lots of published science to help us use this new data in very interesting ways. This means a whole new set of discovery and learning for you and me, so to get started the science section has been updated to include a little more regarding cardiovascular systems.

SO .. what we gonna do with it in GoldenCheetah ?

(1) We already support importing and plotting of the data it provides, but we're going to extend that to enable it to be captured and plotted when working on the turbo; train view becomes a 'home lab' **. I'm also going to add some improvements to download and merge for use with the Moxy.

(2) There are lots of interesting physiological indicators and measures that we can derive using the right algorithms and test protocols - and we're going to add them across all the views; find power at LT1 and LT2, track arterial and venous blood flow, track mitochondria capacity, track saturation recovery / half-life as a function of intensity.

(3) Track impulse-response and plan future workouts; unpicking changes in your power-duration data by understanding the CV adaptations that resulted from past training to plan future training.

There are lots and lots of other possibilities .. this is an exciting area that is literally taking off now !

Regards

Mark

** obviously with limitations -- but the serious point here is that virtual training, video, gaming etc are well served by new tools like TrainerRoad, Zwift, VirtualTraining, PerfPro etc (when Justin Knotzke and I wrote the train view in 2009 none of those tools existed) -- GC will keep a focus on broad device support, science and testing and indoor training.

[Mark Liversedge]

I rode today with a moxy and power meter and got some interesting data; here is HHb vs W'bal.

Fun times.

Cheers

Mark

[Mark Liversedge]

And O2Hb vs W'bal

Mark

[Richard Wharton]

Mark, this is great!! Cycling Center Dallas will have a unit at each studio and we will be offering them for testing and personal coaching in November. Look for is to blog the data and results as we go, at least with myself as the guinea pig.

[VeloTraining]

I'm going to watch and hopefully contribute to this development with great interest, once I've got my head around the basics of GC properly :-)

[Mark Liversedge]

I've added it to the train view now; interesting that perfpro also supports the Moxy - does it try to derive more from the data? (blood flow, HHb etc) 

Mark

[Richard Wharton]

Sitting next to Jon Tarkington and watching Neal Henderson give his lecture about indoor training. Moxy is on the slides many many places.

This is a good thing. Let's all get faster!!!

[Mark Liversedge]

And Dr Skiba is next !

Envious.

Mark

[Luther Gulseth]

I love it! Question, is the $1000 Moxy the only O2 monitoring device you are looking to support, or are some of the various medical quality USB devices a possibility?

in Christ crucified,
Luther

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[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 1 November 2014 16:57:40 UTC, Luther Gulseth wrote:

I love it! Question, is the $1000 Moxy the only O2 monitoring device you are looking to support, or are some of the various medical quality USB devices a possibility?

If its got an API we'll support it, but at present the Moxy is the only option.

I would expect pricing to fall as it becomes more popular, its kinda like powermeters 10 years ago.

The BSX device for example just doesn't provide useful data.

Mark 

[Andy Coggan]

On Saturday, November 1, 2014 12:03:41 PM UTC-5, Mark Liversedge wrote:

On Saturday, 1 November 2014 16:57:40 UTC, Luther Gulseth wrote:

I love it! Question, is the $1000 Moxy the only O2 monitoring device you are looking to support, or are some of the various medical quality USB devices a possibility?

If its got an API we'll support it, but at present the Moxy is the only option.

http://www.artinis.com/product/portamon 

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 1 November 2014 18:19:58 UTC, Andy Coggan wrote:

If its got an API we'll support it, but at present the Moxy is the only option.

http://www.artinis.com/product/portamon 

Interesting, I wonder if they're planning on selling it to consumers.

Have sent an email.

Mark 

[Andy Coggan]

No idea. It has been used by researchers, though - e.g., http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23852494

There are a few others out there as well. 

[Christian Charette]

Is the Moxy support done trough the .csv file or from the cadence data?

I just did a lactate test and we also used a Moxy monitor.

Christian

[Mark Liversedge]

The CSV file is supported for import.
We are also working on direct download from the device.
I will be adding a tool to move speed+cadence values into SmO2 and tHb later

Mark

[Ruud Goorden]

The bsx device does not provide useful data? How do you know about that?

[Mark Liversedge]

On Tuesday, 4 November 2014 07:28:13 UTC, Ruud Goorden wrote:

The bsx device does not provide useful data? How do you know about that?

It just provides power at the LTP aka FTP.

See dcrainmaker and the comments after the article from BSX: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/09/bloodless-lactate-threshold.html

Mark 

[Mark Liversedge]

Direct download is now working, so you don't need a windows pc :)

Mark

[Ruud Goorden]

I'll send you a .csv file when I have the thing. Maybe it will still be worth to build in GC. Also in combination with powerdata and the Moxy data :)

[Mark Liversedge]

Cool -- if there is more data available then we can use it :)

[Mark Liversedge]

On Thursday, 30 October 2014 20:51:52 UTC, Mark Liversedge wrote:

SO .. what we gonna do with it in GoldenCheetah ?

(1) We already support importing and plotting of the data it provides, but we're going to extend that to enable it to be captured and plotted when working on the turbo; train view becomes a 'home lab' **. I'm also going to add some improvements to download and merge for use with the Moxy.

All of the above is now done with the exception of the merge tool. Will look at that later.

This was just a case of integrating Moxy, you don't really get much more than a few graphs !

 

(2) There are lots of interesting physiological indicators and measures that we can derive using the right algorithms and test protocols - and we're going to add them across all the views; find power at LT1 and LT2, track arterial and venous blood flow, track mitochondria capacity, track saturation recovery / half-life as a function of intensity.

This is the current focus for the Moxy;

a) measure and track recovery rates of O2Hb et al above/below CP. (will also include HR, i.e Moxy not required)

b) measure and track arterial flow and therefore SV via modelflow method (and also recovery rates from above)

c) measure and track mitochondria capacity

Mark

[Ruud Goorden]

Looks good ! but how do you derive this?

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 8 November 2014 13:49:50 UTC, Ruud Goorden wrote:

Looks good ! but how do you derive this?

There are lots of studies and articles on pubmed about this and other things.

Just search for NIRS and you'll find loads of stuff .. some we can implement and some to guide how to use/interpret  the data you get.

Some examples;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23154991

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22582211

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22894482

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19712759

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19227462

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24870579

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24782786

.. the answers are out there !

(along with new questions)

Mark

[Ruud Goorden]

Great tnx!

[Pete from AUS]

Mark have you tried using Moxy data for establishing your "limiter" system?

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 8 November 2014 23:57:03 UTC, Pete from AUS wrote:

Mark have you tried using Moxy data for establishing your "limiter" system?

Sounds interesting, how do you do it ?

Mark 

[Pete from AUS]

Plenty of conceptual info around but I haven't got to a detailed instruction yet
http://forum.moxymonitor.com/?forum=256086
http://my.moxymonitor.com/blog/bid/344620/Training-Intensity-Zones-Muscle-Oxygen-and-the-Limiting-System
http://my.moxymonitor.com/muscle-oxygen-monitoring-for-cycling

[Mark Liversedge]

Well. Apparently experts fear to tread here.

That makes a difference from claiming to have pioneered it 10 years ago, I suppose.

Lets collect data and learn from it whilst others talk about it.

Mark

On Saturday, 8 November 2014 15:52:34 UTC, Ruud Goorden wrote:

Great tnx!

[Prol]

As Dustin Freckleton wrote:

Muscle oxygenation changes are currently transmitted via BLE to the users smart phone for real-time visualization and stored in the web for post workout analysis. BSXinsight does not support the MO2 profile at this time. This is because sports watches currently do not support it either. We are members of the ANT+ community and are actively working with their technical groups to make this a more mainstream feature. This is an important advancement we would like to see the community make in the near future.

[Mark Liversedge]

Hi Prol,

My understanding is it only measures relative oxygenation; i.e. changes up and down, but not absolute.

So its great to find an inflection point and thus your lactate threshold (MLSS) but nothing else.

But happy to add it, if it can do something more, when it arrives.

Not at all sure how the 'tied to one athlete' thing could work either (?)

Mark

[Ruud Goorden]

The things start to ship half of december (that is what I have read regarding planning). Since I live in the Netherlands and the thing has to go through customs by the time I have it someone else probably sent you a file download ;). Wrt to the Moxy data visualisation. It is in a development build??

[Mark Liversedge]

On Monday, 10 November 2014 21:20:21 UTC, Ruud Goorden wrote:

The things start to ship half of december (that is what I have read regarding planning). Since I live in the Netherlands and the thing has to go through customs by the time I have it someone else probably sent you a file download ;). Wrt to the Moxy data visualisation. It is in a development build??

Yes, 2d,3d and Ride Plot.

Mark 

[Ruud Goorden]

Nice!

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 8 November 2014 08:47:57 UTC, Mark Liversedge wrote:

On Thursday, 30 October 2014 20:51:52 UTC, Mark Liversedge wrote:

SO .. what we gonna do with it in GoldenCheetah ?

(1) We already support importing and plotting of the data it provides, but we're going to extend that to enable it to be captured and plotted when working on the turbo; train view becomes a 'home lab' **. I'm also going to add some improvements to download and merge for use with the Moxy.

All of the above is now done with the exception of the merge tool. Will look at that later.

Have now updated the merge tool to be more general purpose and building on the excellent work Damien had already done.

I will update the adjust page to show shared series ala compare mode so you can see how they overlap too, but thats for another day.

Here is a video of it in action: https://vimeo.com/111875430

Cheers

Mark 

[Ruud Goorden]

Looks really really really great!!! TNX!

 

And now the other challenge starts ;)

 

Op zondag 16 november 2014 18:16:11 UTC+1 schreef Mark Liversedge:

[Pete from AUS]

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/muscle-oxygen-sensor.html

[Michael Churchward]

Pretty disappointed that the parties involved haven't been able to smash their heads together and come up with a usable Ant+ MO profile for Moxy and BSX to use and for Garmin to record into their FIT file type.

I'm an Insight kickstarter, but knowing what I know now I would not have bought one. While I'll still be able to do tests just fine, the data will be otherwise useless because it won't be tied to my activities in a common file - i guess I'll be manually transcribing test numbers into the comments section of GC. I want Moxy functionality at Insight prices and I guess that doesn't exist yet.

@mark: If/when Insight start logging realtime data are you likely to prioritise integration of the data to GC? How are you doing this with the Moxy at the moment? Is the data recorded into a FIT file, or is the data sync'd somehow?

On Friday, 31 October 2014 07:51:52 UTC+11, Mark Liversedge wrote:

Hey,

I've just received a Moxy Muscle Oxygen Monitor in order to add support into GoldenCheetah v3.11.

Its a small (size of a matchbox) device that straps on the leg and shines infra-red light through muscle to measure hemoglobin concentration and oxygen saturation whilst you ride.

It is likely to absolutely revolutionise the way we measure and track adaptations and the cardiovascular response to exercise; when combined with HR and Power data it is going to be very powerful. There is lots of published science to help us use this new data in very interesting ways. This means a whole new set of discovery and learning for you and me, so to get started the science section has been updated to include a little more regarding cardiovascular systems.

SO .. what we gonna do with it in GoldenCheetah ?

(1) We already support importing and plotting of the data it provides, but we're going to extend that to enable it to be captured and plotted when working on the turbo; train view becomes a 'home lab' **. I'm also going to add some improvements to download and merge for use with the Moxy.

(2) There are lots of interesting physiological indicators and measures that we can derive using the right algorithms and test protocols - and we're going to add them across all the views; find power at LT1 and LT2, track arterial and venous blood flow, track mitochondria capacity, track saturation recovery / half-life as a function of intensity.

(3) Track impulse-response and plan future workouts; unpicking changes in your power-duration data by understanding the CV adaptations that resulted from past training to plan future training.

There are lots and lots of other possibilities .. this is an exciting area that is literally taking off now !

Regards

Mark

** obviously with limitations -- but the serious point here is that virtual training, video, gaming etc are well served by new tools like TrainerRoad, Zwift, VirtualTraining, PerfPro etc (when Justin Knotzke and I wrote the train view in 2009 none of those tools existed) -- GC will keep a focus on broad device support, science and testing and indoor training.

[Mark Liversedge]

On Friday, 21 November 2014 03:54:12 UTC, Michael Churchward wrote:

Pretty disappointed that the parties involved haven't been able to smash their heads together and come up with a usable Ant+ MO profile for Moxy and BSX to use and for Garmin to record into their FIT file type.

The MO Profile and FIT format exists and we already support it. Garmin are dragging their feet on implementing it in their devices.

I just hope they get there in the end (and personally, hope that SRM support it in the new PC8).

 

I'm an Insight kickstarter, but knowing what I know now I would not have bought one. While I'll still be able to do tests just fine, the data will be otherwise useless because it won't be tied to my activities in a common file - i guess I'll be manually transcribing test numbers into the comments section of GC. I want Moxy functionality at Insight prices and I guess that doesn't exist yet.

When we see what the BSX device actually provides then we'll support it in GC.

 

@mark: If/when Insight start logging realtime data are you likely to prioritise integration of the data to GC? How are you doing this with the Moxy at the moment? Is the data recorded into a FIT file, or is the data sync'd somehow?

The data from Moxy is recorded in train view as you ride (using the MO profile), imported from CSV or FIT files, downloaded directly over USB and stored in our JSON file format.

All of this is in v3.11 and should be released in January. Gareth is already pushing out development builds.

Cheers,

Mark 

[Mark Liversedge]

On Saturday, 1 November 2014 18:19:58 UTC, Andy Coggan wrote:

On Saturday, November 1, 2014 12:03:41 PM UTC-5, Mark Liversedge wrote:

On Saturday, 1 November 2014 16:57:40 UTC, Luther Gulseth wrote:

I love it! Question, is the $1000 Moxy the only O2 monitoring device you are looking to support, or are some of the various medical quality USB devices a possibility?

If its got an API we'll support it, but at present the Moxy is the only option.

http://www.artinis.com/product/portamon 

Here are some others, similarly not targetting consumers and priced accordingly.

It looks like Moxy and BSX are the only game in town for now.

Mark 

[Ruud Goorden]

I actually spoke with Artinis and they did not give me the impression to come up with a reasonable price for their Portamon nor a new device.
As for BSX it should be able to export data in different fileformats (.csv etc). At least that's what they told me (and it was verified by their engineers..)

[Ross Holman]

Mark,

Fantastic work (as usual) on supporting MOXY in GC.

I have read just about every line about MOXY including the information in their forum posts and I get that it is a fundamentally different paradigm to existing training approaches. However, I have yet to make the commitment to buy one because of the lack of clarity over exactly how to interpret the data it produces and how to apply that into a training regime that produces measurable improvements.

So having done a reasonable number of rides with MOXY my question to you (and any other MOXY early adopters) is have you been able to interpret the data produced in any meaningful way, particularly related to your power, to guide your training. For example can you tell when you are recovered between intervals, can you use it to judge intensity and duration for intervals, has it helped you to identify MLSS?

Ross

[Pete from AUS]

We need someone to write a book "Training and Racing with a NIRS device"

[Mark Liversedge]

On Friday, 21 November 2014 23:01:10 UTC, Pete from AUS wrote:

We need someone to write a book "Training and Racing with a NIRS device"

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 9:05:15 AM UTC+11, Ross Holman wrote:

So having done a reasonable number of rides with MOXY my question to you (and any other MOXY early adopters) is have you been able to interpret the data produced in any meaningful way, particularly related to your power, to guide your training. For example can you tell when you are recovered between intervals, can you use it to judge intensity and duration for intervals, has it helped you to identify MLSS?

Couple of things;

(1) too soon to say about utility, I've collected data but haven't performed any specific tests so its a bit random. My goal so far has been to get data in. Next is thinking about what to do with it.

(2) I have recorded it on the Moxy but no realtime display as I ride. But again, with indoor riding it may well prove very useful when riding tests and intervals as you indicate; to temper effort or guide recovery between bouts.

Mark 

[Ross Holman]

'He who shall not be named' has been trying one out so maybe the book is in the works :-)

[Ruud Goorden]

Hi Mark

 

Just a question. Maybe it's in this thread and if it is i am sorry. But do you also support (if file exports can be made) exports from Peripedal? Because Moxy is already is integrated in there dragging the Moxy line left and right in GC might not be necessary then?

Op zaterdag 22 november 2014 19:59:02 UTC+1 schreef Ross Holman:

[Mark Liversedge]

Do you have a file to try?

So long as it is a FIT file we should be ok.

Obviously merge is only required for data not recorded in train view and imported alongside other recorded data.

I still need to add a tool to shift S+C or HR out for those Moxy users that record this way (the Moxy can be configured to send Smo2/tHb on speed and cadence ANT+ messages).

Mark

[Daniele Marrama Saccente]

Hi MARK

MOXY was approved by the FDA? 

http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/default.htm

[Mark Liversedge]

On Wednesday, 26 November 2014 11:59:20 UTC, Daniele Marrama Saccente wrote:

Hi MARK

MOXY was approved by the FDA? 

http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/default.htm

Thats a question for Moxy, but it does have an FCC ID since it is a communication device.

It is an interesting question though, since it relates directly to accuracy and I haven't seen any claims in that regard.

Mark 

[Daniele Morbidelli]

Hi All,

I should get a moxy soon and planning to use it for my indoor workouts.

What is the version of GC which support SmO2 and tHB?

Daniele

[Mark Liversedge]

Cool !

It is in the 3.11 development release.

Are you planning to run on Windows, Linux or Mac ?

Mark

[Daniele Morbidelli]

Hi Mark,

the plan is to start with Windows, then possibly on Linux.

Daniele

[Daniele Morbidelli]

Hello Mark

I've managed to perform my first workout/assessment and opened through GC 3.11
I would say almost all good.
Just a couple of things:
1. I had a couples of drops to 0 in tHB and the graphs for tHB was basically a straight orizontal line with these 2 vertical drops. In order to have a valuable graph I used excel and I've adjusted the scale to have it closer to the SmO2.
2. I wonder if it would be possible to do the same in GC: having a graph with SmO2 and tHB with adjusted scales.

I've attached the .fit file.

Daniele 

[Mark Liversedge]

YES :)

The tHb scale is terrible, I do want to fix that, its rubbish at the mo -- it is all about scaling.

You are not the first to raise it, I will fix it soon.

You did spot HHb and O2Hb are also available ?

Mark

[Daniele Morbidelli]

Hi Mark,

yes HHb and O2HB look good ;)

One more thing, in order to have the tHB graph more "friendly" I had to use a mobile window average.
Would be great to have this possibility in GC (same as for the power).

Daniele

[Marcel Laponder]

Hello,

I hope this is the right place to ask, I have downloaded Goldencheetah for Mac, and want to use it to display moxy. I cant find a way for any of the Moxy data to display in any graphs? Is the moxy currently supported in the Mac version? 

Many thanks

Marcel

[Mark Liversedge]

You need to install and run v3.2 which is currently a development build.

see goldencheetah.stand2surf.net.

Mark

[Marcel Laponder]

Thanks so much, Ive got my graphs now.

Regards

Marcel

[Mark Liversedge]

Cool.

If you have thoughts, ideas or reflections please feel free to share here !

Mark

[Marcel Laponder]

Hello Mark,

I have played around with GC now for a couple of hours. I have paired my Moxy and Garmin to the Train view so that I have live numbers. I am seeing a graph being plotted but the scaling is too small. Is there a way so that the scaling can be changed? i think at the moment the scaling is based on cadence and watt numbers, everything is squashed into the bottom of the graph?

the tHB (Total HB Mass) is scaled to one decimal point and for better accuracy should be scaled to 2 decimal points. eg. 13.64 instead of 13.6. I think this is why in the activities tab under the Oxy graph the tHB flat lines. tHB tends to be between a scale 12 and 14. Where as the scaling for the other Oxygen values are displayed proportionately correctly. 

Other than that things look good so far.

Marcel

[Mark Liversedge]

On Sunday, 26 April 2015 08:46:37 UTC+1, Marcel Laponder wrote:

Hello Mark,

I have played around with GC now for a couple of hours. I have paired my Moxy and Garmin to the Train view so that I have live numbers. I am seeing a graph being plotted but the scaling is too small. Is there a way so that the scaling can be changed? i think at the moment the scaling is based on cadence and watt numbers, everything is squashed into the bottom of the graph?

the tHB (Total HB Mass) is scaled to one decimal point and for better accuracy should be scaled to 2 decimal points. eg. 13.64 instead of 13.6. I think this is why in the activities tab under the Oxy graph the tHB flat lines. tHB tends to be between a scale 12 and 14. Where as the scaling for the other Oxygen values are displayed proportionately correctly. 

Other than that things look good so far.

Thanks for the feedback -- must admit the scaling and precision is wrong, I fixed it in the ride plot but should apply the same here for tHB. Will fix it up before we release 3.2.

Mark