political fundraising on golang.org!

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peterGo

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Jun 14, 2020, 9:36:38 AM6/14/20
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Recently, a political message with a fundraising link appeared as a banner atop golang.org websites: https://golang.org/, https://pkg.go.dev/.

content/static: add Black Lives Matter banner to top of site
https://go-review.googlesource.com/c/website/+/237589

    <div class="Header-banner">
    Black Lives Matter.
    <a href="https://support.eji.org/give/153413/#!/donation/checkout"
       target="_blank"
       rel="noopener">Support the Equal Justice Initiative.</a>
    </div>

How was this decision made?

Go is a programming language. For political fundraising use personal Twitter and Facebook accounts.

Peter

Amarjeet Anand

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Jun 14, 2020, 9:49:34 AM6/14/20
to peterGo, golang-nuts
I second Peter.
This is absolutely unbelievable.

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Sam Whited

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Jun 14, 2020, 9:59:12 AM6/14/20
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This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
is a social issue. It is a justice issue. It seems quite obvious to me
that this is different than if they had put a fundraiser for a candidate
for office, for instance, in a banner.

It amazes me how often people come out of the wood work to criticize the
politicization of things as soon as anyone posts a black lives matter
banner, but would be perfectly happy with banners for another cause. Of
course, I don't know if that's you or not, so I'll leave you with some
questions: If you have a problem with this, consider whether you'd have
the same problem with a banner for a cancer research foundation during
the U.S.'s cancer awareness month, for example. If the answer is no,
consider why that might be and work on it. If the answer is yes consider
why a banner that doesn't hurt you but could help a lot of people
bothers you so much.

This *is* related to Go, because it's a community issue and Go is a
community as much as it's a language. Communities of privilege staying
silent on these matters and leaving it up to others, often to
communities that have expended many generations worth of emotional
capital on this already and who often are dismissed by the very people
who need to hear their message, is part of the problem. We don't want to
be part of the problem, so let's do our part, however small, with the
platforms we have.

—Sam

Robert Engels

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Jun 14, 2020, 10:11:07 AM6/14/20
to Sam Whited, golan...@googlegroups.com
I agree it is an important social issue, but in this particular case I believe the funds are directed to specific political parties so the boundary between supporting social issues and political contributions is murky. I am not saying it shouldn’t be done but it should be more transparent.
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Robert Engels

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Jun 14, 2020, 10:14:22 AM6/14/20
to Sam Whited, golan...@googlegroups.com
Major correction, this is not the .org I was thinking of. I have no knowledge that what I said is the case with the EJI.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/1F48211E-9F77-4A8B-B83C-BF9B8987FB56%40ix.netcom.com.

Sam Whited

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Jun 14, 2020, 10:14:57 AM6/14/20
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They are directed to the Equal Justice Initiative which is a non-profit.
In the united states 501(c)3 not-for-profit organizations are barred
from certain kinds of political speech including endorsing individual
parties or candidates. The banner does not point to any particular
political party.

—Sam

Robert Engels

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Jun 14, 2020, 10:17:03 AM6/14/20
to Sam Whited, golan...@googlegroups.com
Thank you, I had already corrected my statement. Sorry to everyone.
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Amarjeet Anand

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Jun 14, 2020, 10:54:44 AM6/14/20
to Sam Whited, golang-nuts
Thanks Sam for the details
Now it makes sense and I can see where it is coming from.

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Eric S. Raymond

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Jun 14, 2020, 4:45:14 PM6/14/20
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Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com>:
> This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
> is a social issue. It is a justice issue.

It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not belong.

Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
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Amnon Baron Cohen

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Jun 14, 2020, 4:58:13 PM6/14/20
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I, for one, applaud the posting of the banner.

Solidarity!

Sam Whited

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Jun 14, 2020, 5:07:13 PM6/14/20
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What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
and important to do so? I don't see anything political about the topic
unless you count that some of the solutions are political (but this one,
donating to a respected non-profit, is not, so I still don't understand
your point).

—Sam

Axel Wagner

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Jun 14, 2020, 5:43:58 PM6/14/20
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Hi,

the Go Team and the Go Project are composed of people and expressing an opinion - *especially* a political one - is well within their right (If I was a conservative American I would wax poetically about the first amendment here).
Let's not pretend this is about politics or not. This is about *what* politics. Some people will feel turned away if you support marginalized groups. But not doing so will turn away other people. And as far as I'm concerned, if I'm given the choice, I know perfectly well which of the two I'm fine turning away. Black lives matter. And if you don't feel that way or don't want to support that message, as far as I'm concerned, I won't be sad to see you leave.

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Robert Engels

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Jun 14, 2020, 6:09:00 PM6/14/20
to Axel Wagner, golang-nuts
Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not correct. You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how best to do so. It doesn’t have to be political at all. 

On Jun 14, 2020, at 4:43 PM, 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



andrey mirtchovski

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Jun 14, 2020, 6:12:55 PM6/14/20
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Hi,

I have a non-profit I'd like to support. Who do I ask to put a banner
on golang.org for me?

(reductio ad absurdum)
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/0A551BF9-F25D-43C4-A678-2E449CC56716%40ix.netcom.com.

Axel Wagner

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Jun 14, 2020, 6:20:04 PM6/14/20
to Robert Engels, golang-nuts
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:08 AM Robert Engels <ren...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not correct. You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how best to do so. It doesn’t have to be political at all. 

No, it is *inherently* political to try and silence the support of marginalized people.
That's what's happening here, to point out the obvious. Some people (the Go project) expressed support for a marginalized group and now, you and others are trying to silence them. That's a political act. Which is why I say, it's not about "if politics", it's "which politics". You are saying your political activism is okay, but theirs isn't.

Axel Wagner

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Jun 14, 2020, 6:21:40 PM6/14/20
to andrey mirtchovski, golang-nuts
You could start here. If the Go team is comfortable putting a banner in its support on the page, they might do so.
(You are using "reductio ad absurdum" wrong).

Dan Kortschak

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Jun 14, 2020, 6:24:19 PM6/14/20
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In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all actions
are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*.
Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political
action and what doesn't varies between people.

robert engels

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Jun 14, 2020, 7:23:21 PM6/14/20
to Axel Wagner, golang-nuts
I never said once that what the Go team was wrong, or not within their rights - all I ever called for was transparency so people can educated decisions on the subject. After more research into EJI I even stated I was wrong about possible political affiliations in this case. 

Maybe you were reading someone else’s post ???

All I pointed out was that someone objecting to this may not be doing based on political party affiliations. Do you think all Democrats think alike on all issues? This is the problem with society at large these days - you can be aligned on the goals and disagree on how you get there but if you disagree with the vocal minority then look out.

You know nothing about me, my background, my politics - or morals for that matter - so please be more respectful. Nothing I said on this topic was in any way disrespectful of anyone - yours clearly has been.

Ian Lance Taylor

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Jun 14, 2020, 7:30:56 PM6/14/20
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Let's please all remember to be respectful and charitable in this discussion, per the gopher values in the code of conduct.  Let's not let this go off the rails.  Thanks.

Ian

Axel Wagner

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Jun 14, 2020, 8:15:33 PM6/14/20
to robert engels, golang-nuts
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 01:22 robert engels <ren...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
All I pointed out was that someone objecting to this may not be doing based on political party affiliations.

No, what you said is, that objecting to the banner may not be *political*. You didn't mention parties and neither did I. And I stand by my statement, that objecting to the banner *is* inherently a political act. And that claiming to object on the grounds that you don't want politics in the Go project is thus paradoxical.

Jesse McNelis

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Jun 14, 2020, 9:52:24 PM6/14/20
to andrey mirtchovski, golang-nuts
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 8:12 AM andrey mirtchovski <mirtc...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

I have a non-profit I'd like to support. Who do I ask to put a banner
on golang.org for me?

(reductio ad absurdum)

This sounds like a great idea to me. It would probably need to be a non-profit that furthers the Go language by expanding the reach and appeal of the community to underrepresented groups.
Perhaps someone could put together a policy on what kind of non-profits that would involve and this could be an ongoing thing.

Jon Reiter

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Jun 15, 2020, 12:29:15 AM6/15/20
to Dan Kortschak, golan...@googlegroups.com
Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause.  And that's illegal in much of the world.  Per google, google operates in 219 countries.  This could force community members to argue in any of at least 219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law.  Not the golang code of conduct, local law.  That is a decision that impacts the entire community.

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Axel Wagner

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Jun 15, 2020, 2:48:50 AM6/15/20
to Jon Reiter, golang-nuts
I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve as a testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the police.
Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for a foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live in the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by any judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project page is the least of your worries.

Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of conduct as not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood that. Just pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire community" is pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does.

Marian Kopriva

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Jun 15, 2020, 2:52:39 AM6/15/20
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I agree with Peter's sentiment here.

Rusco

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Jun 15, 2020, 5:16:23 AM6/15/20
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This is political hijacking of the Golang project, I am disgusted !







On Sunday, 14 June 2020 14:36:38 UTC+1, peterGo wrote:

Axel Wagner

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Jun 15, 2020, 5:24:25 AM6/15/20
to Jon Reiter, golang-nuts
Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.

Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate around how what you may say is violating them. But just because it's laws I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about real.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:33 AM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a significant number of people.  It is not hard to imagine a setting in many major cities around a world where a banner like this appearing during a presentation or training session could cause problems.  I am not the source or enforcer of such rules -- but I am responsible for ensuring I comply with them.

I don't know where you live or work or travel but is in insensitive to dismiss this as a non-issue for everyone that uses go.  To the extent it is an issue it's a local legal issue.  In that way the go code of conduct isn't the primary concern.

Eric S. Raymond

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Jun 15, 2020, 5:56:19 AM6/15/20
to Sam Whited, golan...@googlegroups.com
Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com>:
> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
> and important to do so?

The ensuing dispute over its appropriateness is enough evidence that
it is political.

Axel Wagner

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Jun 15, 2020, 6:56:15 AM6/15/20
to Jon Reiter, golang-nuts
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:56 AM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:
It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)" or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.

It's also not difficult to imagine Orcs and wizarding schools and intergalactic star flight. Doesn't make any of them real.
Are you aware of the optics of responding to a question about real precedence with a different imagined problem?
 
This banner differs only in degree of risk.

Quantitative differences easily become qualitative ones. Being pricked by a needle or getting knifed in the stomach only differ by degree of stabbing. But if I told you that my doctor is trying to kill me, you'd rightly point out that that's an imagined problem.
 
It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount.

Assuming that was true, this non-0 amount would still needed to be weighed against the benefits and in this case, the very real plight of people of color across the world. Who are in very, painfully real danger to their lives.
To make that tradeoff, at the very least, we'd need to know the actual amount. But so far, the amount appears to be an actual zero.

This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments. It's about not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.

It is, for some people. In fact, it seems to me the only "concern" that was brought up by multiple people. Even if it might not be what this is about for you, you should at least still be aware that you are supporting that as well.

As an aside it is not nice to be told my concerns are trivial.  I'm concerned. I'm not the only person on this list that has expressed concerns. That should be enough for the issue to be taken seriously (regardless of outcome).

I disagree with this logic. There are millions of anti-vaxxers or flat-earthers. Doesn't mean their claims and concerns have any merit.


On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 17:23 Axel Wagner <axel.wa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.

Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate around how what you may say is violating them. NBut just because it's laws I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about real.

Space A.

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Jun 15, 2020, 8:58:18 AM6/15/20
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Agree with Peter. It's not the right place and time and disrespectful for the rest of the World. You don't even imagine what problems, social or political, people who live far away from US face each and every day.

K Davidson

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Jun 15, 2020, 9:18:33 AM6/15/20
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This mailing list is for the Go Programming Language, there are other places on the internet to discuss unrelated topics.

Please keep posts limited to things about go.

Axel Wagner

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Jun 15, 2020, 9:27:31 AM6/15/20
to Jon Reiter, golang-nuts
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:04 PM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok.  I live in Singapore.  Here is a statement from the Singapore Police Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or risk being deported:
Is that concrete enough?

No. The scenario you outlined was that you might link to golang.org or show it in a talk and have that be interpreted as political fundraising. The post is specifically concerned with foreigners organizing public protests. That's basically the polar opposite to "a page I linked to for unrelated reasons also contained a banner-ad for a political non-profit". This is a Ship of Theseus argument. You"re replacing "linking to a site containing a banner" with "political advocacy" and that again with "organizing a public protest" and you are replacing "there's a warning about doing X" with "doing X will cause you real and immanent danger" and you're replacing "Fundraising for a social justice movement" with "interfering in a foreign election". And you're pretending that it's still the same argument.

But it's not. What I'm skeptical on is the specific claim, that this banner will land you, or anyone, in trouble when linking to golang.org.

I would not want any banners that could appear to be political to appear on my screen while giving a public talk.

Then don't show them. You can show screenshots and censor them, for example. But "I don't want to show this piece of info" can hardly be translated to "you shouldn't show it".

I do not want any such banners anywhere near any documentation I might send to a colleague or client.  I want 0 risk of these things happening.  I do not think it is fair to equate this to orcs and wizards.

Sam Whited

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Jun 15, 2020, 9:33:05 AM6/15/20
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Why is it disrespectful to the rest of the world? In what way does
supporting the Black Lives Matter movement and an important not-for-
profit diminish from other problems that also need solving?

One of my neighbors recently put it this way: would you walk up to
someone at a breast cancer awareness march and ask "what's wrong with
you, don't you know that all cancers matter?!". Of course you wouldn't.
So ask yourself why people are so willing to do that with this issue in
particular.

—Sam

Sam Whited

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Jun 15, 2020, 9:34:10 AM6/15/20
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This is an important issue about the Go Community and who feels welcomed
here, which is also covered by this mailing list.

Marvin Renich

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Jun 15, 2020, 9:44:40 AM6/15/20
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* 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> [200614 20:15]:
> No, what you said is, that objecting to the banner may not be *political*.
> You didn't mention parties and neither did I. And I stand by my statement,
> that objecting to the banner *is* inherently a political act. And that
> claiming to object on the grounds that you don't want politics in the Go
> project is thus paradoxical.

My opinion, and the way I interpreted Peter's original post, is that
this banner is extremely inappropriate, independent of its social or
political views, because it is completely off-topic for the discussion
of the Go language and introduces a highly controversial non-technical
issue into places where people go to discuss a specific technical topic.

I find it even more offensive that it is not just a banner promoting
awareness of a social issue, but contains a request and link soliciting
money.

My alignment for or against any social issue has absolutely no bearing
on my opinion that this type of banner is inappropriate in this context.
I also believe that the people who run these websites have the right to
place banners of this nature if they wish, but they also have a
responsibility to _not_ do so.

...Marvin

Space A.

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Jun 15, 2020, 9:48:16 AM6/15/20
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Because there are hundreds or thousands of initiatives to support suffering and dying people in African, Asian, Eastern European, and what else countries that will never be supported by top banner at golang.org.