Again with a caste query in Portuguese

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Carvalho

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Feb 2, 2025, 7:05:09 AM2/2/25
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Dear members,

Those who know Portuguese I really need your imput on this. Here is a sentence which doesn't make sense straight away to me or to the one or two people I've enquired with. 

It starts with puro sangue...about 3 lines down. I'm attaching the sentence here for you. I don't want to make a mistake in interpreting it and I would really, really appreciate your help, so that I can arrive at a consensus.

Many thanks,
selma
Sem nota alguma.jpg

cristiana bastos

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Feb 2, 2025, 8:34:24 AM2/2/25
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HI Selma -- "sem nota alguma na sua casta" seems to me "no reference to his caste" (literally: "no any note on his caste") but there may be more subtle interpretations
best 

c

Cristiana Bastos
Institute of Social Sciences | University of Lisbon | Av Anibal Bettencourt, 9 | 1600-189 Lisboa, Portugal 





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Jules Fausto Mendonca de Sa

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Feb 2, 2025, 9:10:39 AM2/2/25
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Hi Selma, 

It appears to be that whilst there is no doubt in relation to legitimacy (sangue puro) they have also identified that they were unable to identify caste. I also do not believe that the family in question that you are referring to would have any issues as they belonged to a noble and well established Chardo family from Velsao. Members of the family in the olden days were said to have been carried by servants on their machila from Velsao to Margao.

Just to let you know that I have noticed that official birth registries in Goa did not define castes but classified a large chunk under Aryan race. I do believe that the Curumbins were the only ones classified as Dravidians. 

I now leave it to the more learned scholars on this group.

Kind regards

Fausto


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From: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: 02 February 2025 09:31
To: Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [GRN] Again with a caste query in Portuguese
 
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Victor Rangel-ribeiro

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Feb 2, 2025, 9:56:04 PM2/2/25
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I agree with Cristiana's interretation.
Victor

sandra lobo

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Feb 3, 2025, 2:13:40 AM2/3/25
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I think that "sem sem nota alguma na sua casta" reinforces the idea that he is pure blood. That is, that there isn't any information that may create a doubt about the purity of his lineage. I'm not familiar with these enquiries in the 19th century, but would say that the enquiry on blood views asserting without doubt the person's caste. Caste in Portuguese language is/was used refering to very different situations, not only caste as we think regarding castes in India (for instance referring to types of grapes or types of people), but has always the connection of breed, type, class.





Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


         

Home (gieipc-ip.org)                              https://praticasdahistoria.pt/

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De: 'Victor Rangel-ribeiro' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Enviado: 3 de fevereiro de 2025 02:55
Para: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Assunto: Re: [GRN] Again with a caste query in Portuguese
 

Kelwin Monteiro

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Feb 3, 2025, 6:05:25 AM2/3/25
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I was wandering, if there is any academic writings or any available written sources, primary or secondary that highlights on the System of Castes in Goa, particularly on the identification of Castes based on the villages/ surnames during the  Portuguese era and thereafter. 

Warm regards, 
Kelwin. 

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Cliff Pereira

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Feb 3, 2025, 6:05:43 AM2/3/25
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Agree with Christina
Sent from my iPhone

On 3 Feb 2025, at 10:56 AM, 'Victor Rangel-ribeiro' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Panandiker, Rahool

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Feb 3, 2025, 6:06:10 AM2/3/25
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One other [possible/nuanced] interpretation:

 

<<This looks like a formulaic use of the epoch that I am not acquainted with. Still maybe: with no stain in his caste, i.e. euphemistically, nothing to be noted about...>>

 

I got this interpretation from my brother in law who happens to be a professor at the ULisbon in the Fac de Letras.

 

Cheers

 

Dr. Rahool S. Pai Panandiker

Managing Director and Senior Partner

 

“ Voici mon secret. Il est très simple: on ne voit bien qu’avec le cœur. L’essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.” – St. Exupery

 

From: 'Victor Rangel-ribeiro' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, 3 February 2025 at 08:26
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Subject: Re: [GRN] Again with a caste query in Portuguese

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Thank you.

Carvalho

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Feb 3, 2025, 6:06:23 AM2/3/25
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Thank you everyone. 
Warm wishes,
Selma

Carvalho

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Feb 3, 2025, 6:06:51 AM2/3/25
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com, Sandra Lobo
Dear Sandra,

This is also the interpretation I think it is. I have examined many similar documents trying to crack the phrase, and this sem nota is used to form a double negative. In most cases the phrase used is "antecedents a good generation." Also at the bottom of this document are the signatures of four people to attest to the antecedents of this man, and the parish priest is the same one who has signed off on all the family baptism certificates so he would be well aware of his caste. 

I have seen 19th century documents where the word casta was also used to simply denote from a certain place, as we would use nationality. So yes, care must be taken when interpreting the word caste.

Warm wishes,
Selma

Paul Castro

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Feb 3, 2025, 6:07:05 AM2/3/25
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The dictionary gives one meaning of ‘nota’ as ‘mácula, defeito’ (stain, defect). Could that be the meaning here? It would make sense syntactically.

 

Best,

Paul

 

Carvalho

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Feb 3, 2025, 9:58:14 AM2/3/25
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Yes, Paul, I am thinking this too. In fact the word defeito is used in other ordination papers to form this same sentence. Also in Salcette Konkani (which massive borrowings from Portuguese) the word fota means stain.

Take care,
selma

Carvalho

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Feb 3, 2025, 8:43:19 PM2/3/25
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Thank you Dr Panandiker. That seems to be the general consensus forming. 

I'm thankful for the imput regarding my queries. I returned from two study trips to Lisbon with 1600 photographed documents. Mercifully many were in English and French. I have had hundreds of Portuguese documents transcribed and translated. I seek scholarly consensus only when a word or phrase is very tricky. I hope I'm not bothering anyone with my queries.

Best wishes,
Selma

William Robert Da Silva

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Feb 5, 2025, 5:24:35 AM2/5/25
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Would a word or statement alone give the 'mind' or mentality behind the Portuguese sense of caste, (in India jati and varna), castico, mestico, nativo(s) etc. casa, casar, casado, soldado, and also "puro sangue,"  "sem nota alguma na sua casta" seems to me "no reference to his caste" (literally: "no any note on his caste").
There were fidalgo in Goa from Portugal, there were soldado, Portuguese and Indian, many were not married, many married; and some took Indian (dead soldiers' wives, gentile and Muslim, perhaps Jews too. 
A soldado had an Indian woman for wife; he (soldado) married (cazar, to marry) and became a casado. There was a fidalgo, son of somebody of status; he was castico. There were nativos. He or soldado took a wife, native, the offspring became mestico, mixed. Casta meant chaste, pure. Incestus, incest meant impure; unchaste. D Barbosa described this system among Nairs of Kerala as casta, chaste; caste. Indian word would have been jati, zat. It refers to internal purity. There are two social-cultural (value) systems operating here and reported in Portuguese. Indians wrote little on these; printed nothing. Some excellent field study and archival study would give Goa and others a good insight into the structure and function of societies in that 'occupied' or colonial period, The Seaborne Portuguese Empire. Selma's documentation would go a long, one way, and field work will go one more way; together, we will have some clarity of explanation and understanding.
W R Da Silva

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