Priest and Cook squaring the circle in Goan society

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Carvalho

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Jan 29, 2025, 9:15:09 AM1/29/25
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Dear members,

I need your opinion on this. Researching one family of nineteenth century Velsao, Goa, I discovered through archival documents in Lisbon, that one brother from Velsao travelled to Zanzibar and was likely a table waiter and cook, and most likely illiterate, but later hugely successful. Although there was some reason to treat this information taken from a 1890 source with some scepticism, it did have details for the employer etc. and in the main not really discreditable.

I have now discovered through the assistance of the brilliant geneologist Richard Souza, that another brother born in 1829 was ordained as a priest.

Was not the priesthood in Goa driven by caste and largely restricted to upper-castes?

How do I square this information?

Your help would be most appreciated.
Selma

Frederick Noronha

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Jan 29, 2025, 1:40:50 PM1/29/25
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(1) I'm not sure where this "priesthood was restricted to the upper castes" argument comes from. It may be something I'm ill-informed about. But, when it comes to basic beliefs about Goa's past, I believe a re-check is often called for. A lot of "facts" that we take for granted or are widely accepted today might not exactly be true (for instance, Catholics were always a minority in Goa; the Goa Inquisition was brutal; the Portuguese were harsh in their suppression of Konkani; Konkani documents were destroyed by the Portuguese, which is why none exist today; the haat-katro khambo was the place where hands of criminals were amputated; etc.)

(2) It is also possible that the non-elite section did not enter the Catholic priesthood, not because they were expressly disallowed, but because they were deprived of the qualifications needed to enter the same. For instance, if poorer sections of Goans could not become doctors or engineers for much of our history, it wasn't because they were pointedly blocked from doing so, but the social reality then denied them the basic qualifications to enter those fields. Willing to amend my views if other details surface. Am however also aware that some religious Orders had restrictions on the entry of non-Europeans, and that seminarians mention caste bias and informal caste-wars (often Bamon-versus-Chardo rivalry, and bigotry against the 'lower' castes)  in religious training institutions till very recently, if not now too.

(3) Poverty and caste need not go hand in hand. There were periods of poverty even among the "high" castes. This sometimes happened due to the early death of the father (then, the only earning member, as in the well-documented case of FN Souza).

(4) Caste-based position in Goan society might not have been translated in a very linear manner to class-based positions in some other part of the globe. Melvyn Misquita, in his unpublished book(let) on the sinking of the S.S. Brittania [https://www.cmbower.co.uk/Articles/OtherProjects/Britannia/Goa/MelvynMisquita.html] mentions Catholics of a Bamon background from a village like Aldona, who were working as stewards and roomboys on the British colonial cruise-liner, that got torpedoed during WWII. I guess this was good money when converted back home, even if it didn't translate in terms of the local caste hierarchy.
FN

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Eric Pinto

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Jan 29, 2025, 1:56:32 PM1/29/25
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Admission to Rachol was restricted to Charda and the Brahmin groups. They were conversant with
the Portuguese language and belonged to the civil services.  The new era dates to the early 70's when 
the language of instruction also changed to English and Konkanni.

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Carvalho

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Jan 30, 2025, 4:05:11 AM1/30/25
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This is my reading to, that it was restricted to Brahmins with the odd chardo admitted. Although I do believe there were some sudhirs too, rare but yes. It seems only in the later part of the 19th century, caste and class began to align, before that more fluidity is observed.

PS: We are now firmly established, said priest was of the chardo caste.

Thank you,
selma


John de Figueiredo

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Jan 30, 2025, 12:23:49 PM1/30/25
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Why was Portuguese dropped as language of instruction? It could not be because it was a “colonial language” because English is definitely a colonial language. Historically, English was never a language spoken by Goans in Goa.
John
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Frederick Noronha

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Jan 30, 2025, 1:47:58 PM1/30/25
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Any sources which point to certain castes being debarred from the (Catholic) priesthood in colonial Goa? Or was it because of social and/or educational handicaps these sections faced? Also, any pointers on permissions or blocks to Indians entering the priesthood, and in which period of time? FN

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Joao Paulo Cota

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Jan 30, 2025, 4:22:43 PM1/30/25
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The French government signed the Treaty of Cession in 1956 with India, which guaranteed French to be included as part of Pondicherry's future, post 1954 referendum.
The Portuguese government was treated as a war enemy, unlike the French, hence the Indian government preferred Portuguese to go away and Goa to embrace what India had to offer - English and Hindi.
The Portuguese also did not encourage Konkani being openly spoken on the streets, as per my older family member / older friend chats. Usage of Konkani was suppressed.
Hence, it could had been a tit for tat game... to get rid of the Portuguese and traces of their language.

From: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: 30 January 2025 09:45
To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [GRN] Priest and Cook squaring the circle in Goan society
 

Carvalho

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Jan 30, 2025, 4:23:01 PM1/30/25
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Have just burned my eyes blind trying to see ordination papers of 18th century Goan priests. Looks like what they were really looking for were men of "clean blood" or "pure blood" without mixing of Jewish, Muslim, Mulatto and caste. Anything else they could deal with :-)

Take care,
Selma

fredericknoronha

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Jan 30, 2025, 4:29:41 PM1/30/25
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Add to it: that the Indian Administrative Service (some from the ICS were still serving in the 1960s) would be familiar with English. Besides, those who were fluent in English, from the Goan diaspora, and there were quite a few of them (in other parts of India, and a sprinkling in Burma, more in Karachi, East Africa... the last of whom of course were not yet returning till the 1970s). A book on Moira just out reminds us that the Opposition leader, Dr Jack de Sequeira, was Burma-born.

Though few notice it, English also went largely unscathed by the Goa OLA (Official Language Act, 1987), though Romi Konkani was sidelined (by defining Konkani as Devanagari Konkani).  The anti-English politics in primary schools in the 1990s were something else, though.  FN

JOHN DE FIGUEIREDO

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Jan 30, 2025, 7:22:39 PM1/30/25
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Sorry but that is not correct. Since 1750 I do not know of any attempt by the Portuguese to suppress Konkani. Quite the opposite. They advocated the development of Konkani as the work of Cunha Rivara and Mourao Garcez Palha demonstrates. There were also Marathi schools in Goa approved by Mourao Garcez Palha's grandfather who was Viceroy of India. There was significant opposition to Konkani from some Goans (such as Suriargi Ananta Rao, for example).
What I cannot understand is why Portuguese was banned at the Seminary of Rachol in favor of English. The Seminary of Rachol was not a government institution, so the "tit for tet" explanation does not apply to them.
John   

William Robert Da Silva

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Jan 31, 2025, 3:50:22 AM1/31/25
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Without systematic archival and field research all the questions raised above receive partial answers or no answers worth considering. Much of what appears here is archival, partially so, in proposed answers and many more queries. When in Goa at GU from 1998-1997 I did extensive fieldwork and the result is surprising on caste and Goan priesthood besides many other issues. "He, he! ti bhas amchi nhoi-re; ti bhas tenchi." On the premises of Rachol and in Old Goa Konkani liturgical translation groups and Bible reading text groups the Church terminology was systematically 'sanscritised, ritually made 'Vedic.' See the difference between Rachol and Pilar, Fr Juze Vas and Agnel D'Souza. See the language of Manddo, Dulpodd, shigmo, fugddi etc. etc. The 'romanisation' of the script and wrong pronunciation attached to them. See Dadu Majrekar and SB, GSB, Antruzi etc. See Kunnbi, Kharvi, Gabit etc. etc. and the converted from various caste-occupational groups. I could go on and write for about a year daily about what I have in my archive. Let us stop here. All the best.

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Joao Paulo Cota

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Jan 31, 2025, 3:50:56 AM1/31/25
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John, the suppression of Konkani is well documented and was corroborated by various older Goan folk whom I had met and spoken to, my late grandfather and father included, but I forgot to add it had happened during modern times, in the last decades prior to 1961.
Yes, pre-1900's there was no problems about Konkani being spoken in Goa - the Jesuits were strong supporters of Konkani and other native languages - despite pushing for Latin and Portuguese too - but since they were expelled from Goa, there was no official support to the Konkani language. It just merely existed.
Konkani did get a push in the 1840's due to the introduction of Manddes and Dulpods in Goan folk music form, where educated Portuguese and Goans would ask their servants to translate Portuguese lyrics into Konkani. Hence the language spread amongst more refined cultural circles in Goa.
However, mid 20th century things changed. Possibly due to Salazar's policies, I wonder.
Portuguese is still spoken at Rachol seminary as well as at the Bishop's palace, but amongst older priests on conversations, I visit both places regularly. I wonder if the Rachol seminary students themselves have anything to do with this, as most new generation post 1961 do not speak Portuguese and many students come from very poor backgrounds too, hence Portuguese would be hard for them to understand, unlike English. Perhaps English was a solution to bridge language barriers at Rachol? I doubt Government policies had anything to do with the language switch at Rachol and Saligao seminaries.
Joao Paulo




John de Figueiredo

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Jan 31, 2025, 6:37:38 AM1/31/25
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It would be helpful for me to know if there is any written document indicating that the Portuguese government suppressed Konkani from the year 1750 till 1961. I could not find a single one. There was even a chair of Konkani and Marathi at the Liceu Nacional Afonso de Albuquerque (funded by the Portuguese government). Professor Martinho Faleiro and Professor Esvonta Sinai Talaulicar (both of whom I knew well) taught those languages at the Liceu. I do not know if that chair survived because of lack of attendance. 
Let us not blame the Portuguese government for what appears to be neglect on the part of many Goans. Cunha Rivara’s appeal fell on deaf ears (with some rare exceptions, as we all know). Prior to the year 1750 is different.
And I continue to be surprised at how quickly the Portuguese language was eliminated at the Seminary of Rachol, thus depriving their students from first hand knowledge of important written materials on the history of Goa. Sad.
John
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Joao Paulo Cota

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Jan 31, 2025, 10:08:14 AM1/31/25
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The material I refer to on various topics I deal with, is available both online and in hard copy. A lot of my Portuguese India section library books content are not online, in various languages.
Hence I need to find out where the information is. Will definitely let you know when I get hold of it.
BTW, there is a lot of things that happened in Goa under the PIDE operations that are not and I doubt it will ever be on the public domain. Some of it revolves around the Konkani language usage in Goa.
Having spoken to both PIDE related and living Goan freedom fighters as well, afraid there is a lot of oral accounts that are not recorded into historical records and I doubt it will ever be. 
I am not really interested in reviving any of it myself, but if any of the above people do it, it would bring new information to the public domain. So far, it is confidential.
I too agree that it is sad that the information written in Portuguese and Latin at Rachol seminary might just turn to dust someday, unless it is digitised in time. I was supposed to had gone to check some Jesuit records in their underground library records, but unfortunately ran out of time due to my book publication last December. 
But will do so in the future.
Joao Paulo


Sent: 31 January 2025 09:21

Carvalho

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Jan 31, 2025, 2:39:43 PM1/31/25
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I don't claim to have done a thesis on Goan priests, but since this is a research forum, I'm sharing what I've come to know to be the case in the particular person I am persuing. In 1853, having studied at the Sao Thome Seminary in Madras, he returned to Goa to answer his Latin exam at Rachol. His family were interrogated to confirm that he was of "clean blood" without any Jewish, Muslim, Mulatto intermingling or any race disapproved of by law. Separately, it was also confined that he was of "pure blood" without a doubt about his caste.

Take care,
Selma


fredericknoronha

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Jan 31, 2025, 3:07:31 PM1/31/25
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The argument of "clean castes and lineage" for Goan priests has been mentioned by the freedom fighter Verissimo Coutinho (later US-based, and at the Loyola University, Chicago, when he wrote this in 1975). Coutinho cites Tristão de Bragança Cunha's work as below, to argue that the "Portuguese Church's acceptance of caste inequality was evident":

QUOTE One of the major reasons for the maintenance of the
caste system in Goa, was that it served the political aims of
the Portuguese by keeping the Catholics divided. The Portu-
guese Church's acceptance of the caste inequality was evident
from the order of the Third Council of Goa which ordered that
the Catholic priests be of the honored and clean castes and
lineage so that the other Christians would respect them.59 UNQUOTE

Given that much of Goa's history has been written in highly polarised times, with strong ideological lenses in place (on both sides), maybe we need a critical perspective on how we understand the same today. Also, The Third Provincial Council of Goa took place in 1585. Your views?

FN

JOHN DE FIGUEIREDO

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Jan 31, 2025, 3:29:54 PM1/31/25
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Selma,
Can you please share with us who interrogated his family and who signed the statement that he was of "pure blood" etc.?
John

Jules Fausto Mendonca de Sa

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Jan 31, 2025, 4:07:53 PM1/31/25
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Hi Selma,

This question was part of a process that was applicable to all the Priests ordained from the 1700s right to the early part of the 1900s. In addition it was also required to provide genealogical evidence that all members came from a legitimate family background. (Ilegitimacy was frowned upon). As far as I am aware I have not come across any instance where this part was exempted save for the case where a second candidate ordained from a particular generation or who had commenced the process to drop out later, were exempted as the requirements were fulfilled by the first candidate from that generation.

This source has been a great help to genealogical buffs like myself in the construction of family trees as it allows one to go several generations. 

I hope that this clarifies the situation. 

Kind regards

Fausto


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Sent: 31 January 2025 18:06

Carvalho

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Jan 31, 2025, 4:41:39 PM1/31/25
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Dear John,

You shall have to wait for the book :-) 


Take care,
Selma

Carvalho

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Jan 31, 2025, 4:43:07 PM1/31/25
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Dear Fausto,

True but the writing is very difficult to decipher :-) 

One of the things that should have happened is a transcription of all these digitised documents. But maybe there is hope, because I am very sure in a few years AI will be able to do spontaneous translations.


Take care,
selma

John de Figueiredo

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Jan 31, 2025, 10:29:18 PM1/31/25
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Dear Selma,
I certainly will wait for your book. The document you mention is important. The reason for my questions is because that type of discrimination was prohibited by the Marquis of Pombal but because the Goans continued to discriminate for 11 more years ignoring Pombal’s orders, an order from the Viceroy/Governor sought to end the discrimination once and for all restating Pombal’s order. Therefore both the dates and the people who issued such opinions are relevant: whether they were Goans or Europeans. There is a 19th century document in which the Archbishop of Goa recommended a Parish Priest for promotion to Vicar stating that he deserved the promotion because he was a Brahman. This shows an action/reaction between the Goans and the Portuguese. The Portuguese ordered an end to discrimination, the Goans resisted, and the Portuguese gave up and went along with the local practice. It is my understanding that it was not until the 20th century that Archbishop Dom Jose’ da Costa Nunes prohibited such discriminations in the Seminaries and promotions and threaten those who violated his order with excommunication.   
John
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On Jan 31, 2025, at 4:41 PM, 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


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