Could anyone help with these translations please

[alan machado]

beirame

tafecira

cotonia

pecas de cotonia

graa/ gran

ora (something to do with money?)

quatcuto

cerqueja

most of these are related to cloth items, circa 16th century

Thank you 

Alan

[Victor Rangel-ribeiro]

Dear Alan, we would be better able to help you if you could give us some of the context in which you found these words!

Grateful for the work you've been doing.

Victor

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[alan machado]

Hello Victor 

Thank you for your sentiments.

These words appear in Albuquerque's Cartas and have reference to rewards given out to persons who fought alongside him during the capture and retention of Goa. It appears rewards were largely by way of different varieties of cloths, rice, and money.

Hope to bring out something on the nature of help he received from Indians. Pissulencar has given some names and references, but there were many more who were involved. It needs to be highlighted.

Any inputs/ suggestions are most welcome.  

Thank you once again

Alan

 

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[Carvalho]

Hi Alan,

These are really hard. After much AI permutations (not to be trusted at all) I got these translated as Latin words. I think you will have to ask someone familiar with Latin for help to break the code. Also sometimes I have found particular words as used at the time will be repeated within other documents of the era which sometimes break the code but that's a longshot.

cotonia as cotton

pecas de cotton as parts or pieces of cotton

cerqueja as the gorse plant

quatcuto as four times

Take care,

selma

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[University Librarian, Digital University Kerala]

See the translation given by ChatGPT.

Here are possible translations or interpretations for the provided words, which appear to be of Portuguese origin or influenced by it. However, some of them may be misspelled or archaic, and exact meanings may vary depending on context:

1. beirame – Likely derived from "beira," meaning "edge" or "rim." It could mean "border" or "margin."
2. tafecira – Might refer to "tapecaria," which means "tapestry" or "carpet."
3. cotonia – Possibly a misspelling of "algodão" or "coton," referring to "cotton."
4. pecas de cotonia – Likely translates to "pieces of cotton" or "cotton items."
5. graa / gran – Could mean "grace" (graça) or "grain" (grão), depending on the context. "Gran" might also refer to "grand" or "large."
6. ora (something to do with money?) – "Ora" means "now" or "hour" but could also relate to a context involving timing or monetary value.
7. quatcuto – May be a misspelling or regional term. Could relate to "quatro" (four) or something entirely specific to a dialect or context.
8. cerqueja – Likely linked to "cerca" (fence) or "cerquejar," meaning "to encircle" or "to fence off."

If these words come from a historical or regional text, additional context could clarify their meanings or intended use.

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[Cliff Pereira]

Dear Victor this is the best I can do. 

I recall that Ora is something to do with money, but that was decades ago. No idea on Quatcuto.

Beirame - Portuguese for a fine cotton cloth (like in kurtas) made in India.

Tafecira - Portuguese for a kind of calico (Chira) fabric from India.

Cotonia - Italian term for "cotton". - In modern Portuguese "Algodão"

Pecas de cotonia - Itallian "Pezzi di cotone" or pieces of cotton. - in modern Portuguese "Pedaços de algodão"

Graa/Gran - Perhaps from Portuguese Grã meaning "grain".

Ora (something to do with money?)

Quatcuto 

Cerqueja - It could be derived from "Cereja" meaning "cherry" and applied to the bright red dyed cloth from India.

Regards

Clifford 

---

From: 'Victor Rangel-ribeiro' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: 30 November 2024 1:35 AM
To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [GRN] Could anyone help with these translations please

 

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[Mervyn Maciel]

Dear Victor, 

May I take this opportunity to thank you for your infectious zest for life despite your “young “ age!!

You are an inspiration to me - just out of hospital following chronic bleeding in my brain!

I am home now surrounded by a loving and  caring family since I lost my darling wife, Elsie, to Covid, without being able to see or give her a final embrace after 70 years of a very happy marriage!

With  all good wishes.

Mervyn 

Sent from my iPhone

On 29 Nov 2024, at 17:35, 'Victor Rangel-ribeiro' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Sonia Gomes]

Merwyn, for me you are a great inspiration. Hope to meet you someday.
Regards
Sonia

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[Victor Rangel-ribeiro]

Mervyn, you have touched my heart! Glad you are out of the hospital; has the bleeding in the brain been taken care of? You've had seventy years of a very happy marriage before Elsie passed away; I had only fifty-four with my darling Lea before she passed away years ago. But Elsie will continue to be part of your life, as Lea continues to be part of mine, each and every day; remember the line, "I carry your heart with me; I carry it in my heart." God bless you and your loving family!

Mog asuni!   

Victor

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/26C56DB0-F935-47ED-8E72-E1E9ADDEB464%40gmail.com

.

[Joao Paulo Cota]

For those relying on ChatGPT, please note that is a machine learning algorithm that 'learns' what is fed to it. I doubt very much information of the 16^th century will be 'fed' into that piece of code.

Hence the erraneous translations of the first two items:

Beirame is a piece of cotton, used in various pieces of clothing in that period, and the cotton was produced mostly along the Coromandel coast of India. At that period of time, cotton was only produced in that geographical area.

Tafecira is about printed, multicoloured fabric, popular with lady's fashion, that has absolutely nothing to do with carpets. Approximating it as 'tapecaria' similar to spell checking software, leads the user to accept it and for the next iteration, the software will then assume tapecaria is acceptable, so it will then start reporting similar words related to carpets on future iterations of reporting. Which means, one small error from the user side, leads to a totally wrong line of reporting.

Hence if the right information is not incorporated to ChatGPT, the software will report the nearest approximation of what information is available to it.

Hence using ChatGPT for historical purposes, is a bit of a grey area and can potentially be totally wrong, if the user has zero knowledge about the subject matter. Two wrongs will never make one right.

JP Cota

---

From: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of University Librarian, Digital University Kerala <libr...@duk.ac.in>
Sent: 30 November 2024 05:31

To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [GRN] Could anyone help with these translations please

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[Carvalho]

I don't think any writer of history is using AI to interpret words, because sometimes even after 10 people have given their opinion about a word, you who are familiar with the whole document will still know none of them are exactly right and that you don't have enough context to interpret it adequately. Personally, I give the orginal word in the text and contextualise it in the footnotes.

Also, AI is depending on aggregates. So there is a possibility aggregates will produce a better translation.

Take care,

Selma

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[Mervyn Maciel]

Dear Victor & Sonia

You have both been kindness personified and I can only thank you both from the bottom of my heart.

I know my Els us using her influence with her bods to see that I am well cared for. Not fair as there more deserving cases that deserve the Lord’s attention!

I miss my Els every day and missed her more today when my family took me to a Christmas Fair at King’s  College Wimbledon where a plethora of crafts were on sale. Being a creative person, my Els would have loved every item she saw as she was a gifted potter who exhibited st our Sutton College of Liberal Arts. She could put her hands to almost anything. Was the first Goan who published her ‘Goan Cookery Book’ in yhe U.K. to wide acclaim and rave reviews which sadly our own community never supported initially! Sad! Accomplished seamstress too who mad both our daughters wedding trousseau  when just out of hospital after major surgery. She also made the 3-tier Vegan wedding cake and even made a 3-piece suit for me - not to mention the hundreds of jumpers she made for me and he dgrandchildren.

Sent from my iPhone

On 30 Nov 2024, at 15:58, 'Victor Rangel-ribeiro'via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Mervyn, you have touched my heart! Glad you are out of the hospital; has the bleeding in the brain been taken care of? You've had seventy years of a very happy marriage before Elsie passed away; I had only fifty-four with my darling Lea before she passed away years ago. But Elsie will continue to be part of your life, as Lea continues to be part of mine, each and every day; remember the line, "I carry your heart with me; I carry it in my heart." God bless you and your loving family!

Mog asuni!   

Victor

On Saturday, November 30, 2024 at 06:26:32 AM EST, Mervyn Maciel <mervynels.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Victor, 

May I take this opportunity to thank you for your infectious zest for life despite your “young “ age!!

You are an inspiration to me - just out of hospital following chronic bleeding in my brain!

I am home now surrounded by a loving and  caring family since I lost my darling wife, Elsie, to Covid, without being able to see or give her a final embrace after 70 years of a very happy marriage!

With  all good wishes.

Mervyn 

Sent from my iPhone

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/26C56DB0-F935-47ED-8E72-E1E9ADDEB464%40gmail.com

.

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[carolina costa]

Hello Alan,

I only know these 2. They have different origins but are included in Portuguese.

1.       Beirame - tecido de algodão fino oriundo da Índia. Palavra de origem persa.

2.     Tafecira -designação  extensiva a diferentes tecidos orientais semelhantes à chita, feitos de materiais diversos (seda, algodão, etc.). Palavra de origem árabe.

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.

[alan machado]

Hello all

do apologise for the delayed response in thanking you for your very helpful inputs. It's now clear that a variety of cloths of different value and status symbols, along with rice, sugar and money  were given as salary and rewards during this phase in Goa.  That is enough for my purpose which concerns understanding the nature of help given by Indians in Albuquerque's capture of Goa and early administration. Have already compiled a number of names, and other details. Any help, suggestions, inputs would be most welcome. 

Thank you once again

Alan 

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[Luís Cabral de Oliveira]

Alan,

Just one more suggestion. Do you know this book? 

https://books.google.pt/books?id=RM4sAQAAMAAJ&newbks=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA424&dq=cotonia&hl=pt-PT&source=newbks_fb&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=cotonia&f=false

See pg 424 and 425 for textiles.

Luís

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[alan machado]

Thank you very much Luis. THis is useful.

THere is so much information in these responses, perhaps I will add a note on the different types of rewards and perhaps their significance 

Thank you all

Alan

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[William Robert Da Silva]

My references give me the impression that these words are of Perso-Arabic origin, in early Portuguese, partly in use in west-coast India, and for the items of exchange in the early 16th century. Since I do not have access to much of that early literature at present (I am in a post-surgical situation) I would not be able to consult the sources successfully.

W R Da Silva

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