Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: "Gonvllik Chitt"

[augusto pinto]

A casual remark which Ben Antao made about Konkani writing style, reminded  me about a little booklet that has been distributed by the Goan  Archdiocese to probably every Catholic home in Goa not too long ago for Rs 10/ although I doubt very many have read this little tome and for good reason.


This booklet, a pastoral letter, has been sent ahead of the First National Convention of Small Christian Communities (SCCs) scheduled to be held in front of the Basilica of Bom Jesu, Old Goa from 19 to 21 November 2013. The SCC is the big thing of the Church in recent times.

The cover page reads as follows: Lhan Kristi Somudai: Priti - Sevechea Ekcharan Bhavartheak Govai / Small Christian Communitites: Communion of Faith in Love, Gonvllik Chitt, Gonvllik Voros 2013 - 2014, Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: Goy - Damanvchea Arsebispachi.

I don't really want to comment about the idea of SCCs which is the theme of this bilingual Pastoral Letter but I want to comment on the style of Konkani and the alleged 'Approved English version' of the text. I'll do this by simply copying a couple of Konkani paragraphs and then the alleged English translation and allow you to compare both of them.

2. Lhan Kristi Somudai Kiteak?

i. 1960 dosokant, Yves Congar Dominikan Sonsthechea mottvaxian, aplea kallachea loka lagin uloun mhonnlolem: "Povitr Sobhechi bandavoll - kednam-kednam tich Povitr Sobah - ticho khol ani jivo ghutth lipoita tosli addkholl zata: ho gutth fokot thollak mellunk - vo portun mellunk xokta. Ani ho 'tholl' kitem tem som'zaun diunk, Lay People in the Church - hea pustokant, Lhan Kristi Somuday "ho gutth sorolllponnan ani sadheponnan jiyeunk mellta tosle Povitr Sobheche lhan khondd" mhonn to boroita.

ii. Amcho Dev Triek Dev ani moniskull rochtanam tannem aplem Triek Dev-jivit amkam dilem. Mhonntoch, amche bhiltor Dev-jivitachi kitt asa. Dekhun, soimbhinvh ami sombondik. Bharotantli Povitr Sobha LKS sthapunk vavurta tea promannan, Lhan Kristi Somuday xezariam modem soirigot ghoddun haddpant ek boro upay ani tanche vorvim vangddam sovem Dev-soimbh asa tem uzvaddak yeta. Khorem mhollear, nizache LKS 'sonvsarant sorg' ghoddun haddunk soeg ditat.
...

Now for all of you who understood those paras, compare it with the alleged English translation:

2. Why Small Christian Communities at all?

i, Way back in the 1960s, the Dominican theologian Yves Congar, speaking to his contemporaries, had said: "The Church's machinery, sometimes the very institution, is a barrier obscuring her deep and living mystery, which they can find, or find again, only from below." And to explain the term 'below', he writes in his book 'Lay People in the Church', that Small Christian Communities are "little church cells wherein the mystery is lived directly and with great simplicity."

ii. Our God is a Trinitarian God and, in the process of creating humankind, he shared his Trinitarian Life with us. This means that we have a spark of God's life within us. We are therefore relational by nature. Small Christian Communities, in the manner the Church in India is promoting them, are an excellent means to promote relationships among people in their neighbourhoods, thus giving expression to the divilne nature within them. Actually, genuine SCCs help create 'heaven on earth'.

Those of you who may be wondering why I have been saying 'alleged English translation' may by now understand what I mean. If one compares the two versions it is very apparent that it is the English version which is the original while the Konkani version is the translation.

One reason why people are horrified by the 'Padri Bhas' of the Catholic Church is that it is first thought out in English and then there is a struggle to translate it into Konkani. Thus one gets a Konkani which is stilted and unnatural, and which tries to express itself in the syntax of a foreign language rather than its own.

And at the level of word building, where an unfamiliar concept would have been easier to borrow from the English, it is first translated into Sanskrit or Marathi and then imported into Konkani, thus forcing the reader to read a translation of a translation.

Any comments, especially from votaries of Romi Konkani, although others are also welcome to give their two paisa worth?

Augusto

--


Augusto Pinto
40, Novo Portugal
Moira, Bardez
Goa, India
E pint...@gmail.com
P 0832-2470336
M 9881126350

[Tensing Rodrigues]

You have hit the nail on the head. But who cares ? Our protagonists of Romi want exactly this. They want the mass to be in a Konknni  that is Latin to the ears of the common man/woman. I really feel sad about the hypocrisy. Once our children learn in English medium, it will be worse; our mass will be in Nahuatl.

Tensing. 

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[Eugene Correia]

I am no votary of Konkani but a reader who has followed the course of its development and still enjoys reading Konkani periodicals. On my visit to Goa many, many years ago and attending Konkani Mass and also reading for the Konkani prayer book, I was astonished at the language.

At first glance it appeared too Sanskritised. But with the absence of equivalent words in Konkani for lot of Biblical terms and words and also considering the fact the Church and some of her priests had undertaken the task of standardizing Konkani, the language may have been right. Some of the words used seemed "load words" from Devnagiri Konkani.

Even a magazine like Gulab and some Romi Konkani protagonists/writers have taken recourse to use language that doesn't seem common to ordinary or household users of the language.

Maybe at the academic or higher level of writings the language may be an accepted form. So, the questions that arise are: Should there be a new school of Konkani scholars who could further simplify the language for common use? What is the via media in such situations? Is calling such language "Padri Bhas" a deliberate attempt to alienate the scholarly work done by secular and Jesuit priests? Or, calling it "Padri Bhas" a derogatory way of naming it?

There must be a consensual way of arriving at "standardization" of the language but can a consensus be achieved in the "divided" fora of Romi Konkani scholars and writers.

Eugene Correia

[augusto pinto]

Dear Eugene,

Padri Bhas is a term that has been existence for quite a while although I would not be able to pinpoint its origin.

It is not used in any derogatory sense, but rather it is a descriptive term for the type of difficult dialect invented by the Church and its priests, exemplified by its use in the Bible or Povitr Pustok.

If anyone feels it is derogatory in any sense they are quite free to propose an alternative, for the language being in a period of development, needs terms of this nature.

As of now I cannot think of a term more appropriate than Padri Bhas for the sort of Konkani used in the Church.

Can you?

Regards
Augusto

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[Ben Antao]

Dear Augusto

 

Re: Those of you who may be wondering why I have been saying 'alleged English translation' may by now understand what I mean. If one compares the two versions it is very apparent that it is the English version which is the original while the Konkani version is the translation.

 

That’s an insightful observation that only an accomplished reader and writer of both English and Konkani, such as you, could make.

 

As you know, last year I published a collection of ten short stories in both English and Konkani in Romi script.

I was inspired to convert my stories in English into Konkani by Damodar Mauzo and Jose Lourenco, both from Goa Writers group.

 

As I’ve been living in Toronto for nearly 45 years now, I’d lost a lot of Konkani vocab as well as its correct syntax, particularly the current orthography or spelling of words.

 

But I tried to do my best as a means of supporting the spread of Konkani in Roman script. 

 

By the time I’d finished the tenth story, my editor Joel D’Souza of Assagao told me that I’d improved a lot in learning the

correct syntax of Konkani writing as well as grammar.  The bilingual book of short fiction is titled A Madhouse in Goa and nine other stories/Xirap ani her nnov kotha

 

Below are the opening ten lines from A Madhouse in Goa in both versions:

 

1.    “That is the place,” said the taxi driver.

        

          Sebastian Lobo got out of the cab and studied the two-story building perched on the east side of the Altinho hill.

         

          “Matso rav hanga, it may take me a while,” he told the driver.  

 

          “No problem, patranv, tum kainch bhienaka; take your time.”

 

          Sebastian sniffed at the air made warm by the November sun and walked towards the building. So this is the madhouse of Goa, he thought, recalling the play he’d seen in London in 1989, featuring Vanessa Redgrave. He had been curious about this place ever since and wanted to pay a visit, more so to learn about a priest who had been committed there.

 

2. Below is my Konkani rendering from the story titled Ek Pixeanchem Ghor Goyam:

 

          “Tem ghor thoimsor asa,” ttexxi choloinaran mhonnllem. 

 

           Sebastian Lobo ttekxintlo devlo ani tem Altinho dongrache udenti dhodder bandlelem don mallienchem ghor bhariksannim polloilem. 

 

           “Hanga matso rav; mhaka ghoddiek matso vogot zait,” tannem mottorkarak sanglem. 

 

           “Kainch porva na, patranv; tum kainch bhienaka, tuka zai titlo vell ghe.”

 

            Novembrachea votan gorom’ kelelem varem Sebastian unglo ani tea ghorache dixen chal dhorli. Hem pixeanchem ghor tor, aplea monantuch mhonnlem, ani tannem 1989 vorsa Londonant polloilelea Vanessa Redgravacho drama-cho taka ugddas ailo.  Tedna thavn taka he suvatechi kuriozidad zaleli, ani thoim eka padrik ghatlolo tachi khobor kaddunk to axetalo.

 

 

As you can see, I wrote the stories in English first. Your comments as well as those of others on this forum will be most appreciated.

 

Mog asunv

Ben

 

 

From: augusto pinto

Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:58 PM

To: Augusto Pinto

Subject: [GOABOOKCLUB] Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: "Gonvllik Chitt"

[Alfred de Tavares]

Padri Bhas, Gusto? Why...it is Latin or what was supposed to be Latin.

Before John XXlll's linguistic leap forward into vernacular, not only the entire
Mass but the sermons too were liberally sprinkled with Latin, the more so the
greater credit to the 'pregador'.

They were wont to begin the 'sermao' with a  jeremiad flung out in Latin, like:
acta deos numquam mortalia fallunt.... & so on...

Never mind only the One up understood the gist.

Practically, nobody else did, but that did not make them stint their praise for
the pulpiteer.

Quessoló sermao uddoiló re ta'ne. Samqui katorli baji.

On a memorable feast day in Loutulim one chap got away with:

Omnes homines sunt asini vel homines et asini sunt asini....

You see, on occasion the filled glass of water the sancristao provided
elocutor contained no water...

I am not attempting to pull any leg.....Ipso facto est!

Chacha

---

Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 15:48:46 +0530
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] re: Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: "Gonvllik Chitt"
From: pint...@gmail.com
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

[augusto pinto]

Dear Chacha,

Thank God for Google Translate or we might have missed gems like :

Actions never deceive the gods ....

and

All men are donkeys or men and (all) donkeys are donkeys ....

Ipso facto est!

Regards

Augusto

[Jose Colaco]

Chacha Alfredo de Tavares wrote

"the sermons too were liberally sprinkled with Latin, the more so the greater credit to the 'pregador'......... Never mind only the One up understood the gist."

My dear Chacha,

Adlea Tempar: the Latin phrase was usually (in my experience) was followed by an explanation in Konkani.

So, those among us who knew Latin ... got a double explanation.

In modern times: Thank God for the knowledge of Marathi. Otherwise The sermons in that  awful sounding nasal dialect of Marathi masquerading as Konkani would fly right over.

BTW: have you attended a Hindu ceremony without Sanskrit or an Islamic ceremony without Arabic?

So, I suppose, the legendary Dr. Cui was right, after all.

jc

[Jose Fernandes]

Manestamno,

Tumchim motam vachlim...  Te vixim mhojim motam:

1. Augusto-baban jem igorjechea Konknni onnkara vo bhaxantora vixim aplem mot manddlem, tea motak mhozo-i tenko asa. Kal sanjer, khub kallan Moddganvam 'Munisponnachem Ghor' nanvacho tiatr polleunk gelolom. Mhaka tiatr avddunk nam hi veglli gozal, punn tea tiatrant bhumika korpi kaim kolakaram Konknni utram ulounk hat bolsant ghalun mhonnlolea porim utram sodtalim koxim dislim ani hanv boroch ojap zalom. Igorjechea mollar-ui oxench kitem zalolem asa.... amche atanche pillgeche khubxe padri Konknnintlean mis (tea Misachi utravoll Latin bhaxecho onnkar zaum) bhettoytat, punn chaltea jivitant Konknni uloytanam utram sodtat. Agusto-baban, Konknni LKS-acho Konknni onnkar dila to mhaka somzunk nam. Mhonnun Inglez asa to don pavtti vachlo.... uprant tin-chear pavtti tem Konknni bhaxantor.... nam somzunk nam. Tech khatir, atam siminarimni Konknni bhas xikounkuch zai oxem mhojem mot asam.

2. Ben-baban aple eke kothecho ek bhag Inglezintlean dila.... ani tea uprant tacho onnkar kelolo bhag dila..... vachun oxem tharaylam.... Ben-babacho to Inglezintlean Konknnint onnkar kelolo kothancho jhelo vachunk ghetam.... ani vachun zatoch, tacho zata te bhaxen sogllea angamni niyall boroytolom. Ben-bab, tumche te Konknni kothecho bhag vachun bhaxeche nodrentlean tea pustokacho niyall ghevpachi mhoji khuxi ani umollxik vaddlea.

Sompoytanam, Konknninche Romi lipientlean boroylolim him don utram padribhaxechea zomeantlim nhoi mhonn somzotam. Dista zalear, jerul kollounchem.

Mog asum, 

Jose Salvador Fernandes 

      

--

[Ben Antao]

Manest Salu-bab

 

Thank you for your comment re #2. I appreciate your interest in reading all my ten stories in English and then in Konkani.

 

I’m replying in English because it would take me a long time to do so in Konknni. Besides, not too many on this forum will

read my post in Konkani.

 

First of all, your Konkani is not at all like Padri bhas. I can read and understand your style of writing in Konkani.

 

Second, I wish to make an observation about syntax:

 

The Devnagari syntax that our friend Augusto Pinto follows is not what I would follow. I would follow the syntax observed

by Konkani writers in Romi script, like you, Dale Luis Menezes, and  Willy Goes.

 

If Augusto wants to follow the Devnagari syntax, that is his choice. He should not impose it on other Goans who

want to write in Konkani in Roman script.  What is your view on this, Salu?

 

Mog asunv

Ben   

[augusto pinto]

Dear Ben,

 

First of all, your Konkani is not at all like Padri bhas. I can read and understand your style of writing in Konkani.

I agree with you: Salu's Konkani is quite the equivalent of 'Plain English'.

 

Second, I wish to make an observation about syntax:

 

The Devnagari syntax that our friend Augusto Pinto follows is not what I would follow...

 

If Augusto wants to follow the Devnagari syntax, that is his choice. He should not impose it on other Goans who

want to write in Konkani in Roman script. 

I know a flame bait when I see one, and can ignore it when I want to. But I guess this is too rich to resist.

Where did I ever say, my dear Ben-bab, that I want to follow a 'Devanagari syntax' whatever that may mean? I will have my own opinions but who am I to impose anything on anyone else? You're being a naughty boy when you put words in my mouth like this.

Very briefly what I think, is as follows: I believe that the Konkani that all of us speak, no matter which dialect, is spoken in short, crisp sentences, often is short phrases which convey the whole meaning, although interspersed with a few long ones for variety.

When this is written, in no matter which script whether Roman or Devanagari or whatever, it results in pleasing and easily understandable communication.

However what is happening to the Konkani written by priests, is the same that used to happen to English, which used to be written in a convoluted style, when it used to follow a Latin sentence construction, 

There is a politics behind this but I'm not going to talk too much about this but rather I'll direct you to George Orwell on this issue: 'Politics and the English Language' https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm and request you to see a parallel happening in the Padri Bhas dialect of Konkani.

Regards

Augusto

 

\ 

 

   

 

From: Jose Fernandes

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 9:45 AM

To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: "Gonvllik Chitt"

 

Manestamno,

 

Tumchim motam vachlim...  Te vixim mhojim motam:

 

1. Augusto-baban jem igorjechea Konknni onnkara vo bhaxantora vixim aplem mot manddlem, tea motak mhozo-i tenko asa. Kal sanjer, khub kallan Moddganvam 'Munisponnachem Ghor' nanvacho tiatr polleunk gelolom. Mhaka tiatr avddunk nam hi veglli gozal, punn tea tiatrant bhumika korpi kaim kolakaram Konknni utram ulounk hat bolsant ghalun mhonnlolea porim utram sodtalim koxim dislim ani hanv boroch ojap zalom. Igorjechea mollar-ui oxench kitem zalolem asa.... amche atanche pillgeche khubxe padri Konknnintlean mis (tea Misachi utravoll Latin bhaxecho onnkar zaum) bhettoytat, punn chaltea jivitant Konknni uloytanam utram sodtat. Agusto-baban, Konknni LKS-acho Konknni onnkar dila to mhaka somzunk nam. Mhonnun Inglez asa to don pavtti vachlo.... uprant tin-chear pavtti tem Konknni bhaxantor.... nam somzunk nam. Tech khatir, atam siminarimni Konknni bhas xikounkuch zai oxem mhojem mot asam.

 

2. Ben-baban aple eke kothecho ek bhag Inglezintlean dila.... ani tea uprant tacho onnkar kelolo bhag dila..... vachun oxem tharaylam.... Ben-babacho to Inglezintlean Konknnint onnkar kelolo kothancho jhelo vachunk ghetam.... ani vachun zatoch, tacho zata te bhaxen sogllea angamni niyall boroytolom. Ben-bab, tumche te Konknni kothecho bhag vachun bhaxeche nodrentlean tea pustokacho niyall ghevpachi mhoji khuxi ani umollxik vaddlea.

 

Sompoytanam, Konknninche Romi lipientlean boroylolim him don utram padribhaxechea zomeantlim nhoi mhonn somzotam. Dista zalear, jerul kollounchem.

 

Mog asum,

 

Jose Salvador Fernandes

     

On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 6:58 PM, augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com> wrote:

A casual remark which Ben Antao made about Konkani writing style, reminded  me about a little booklet that has been distributed by the Goan  Archdiocese to probably every Catholic home in Goa not too long ago for Rs 10/ although I doubt very many have read this little tome and for good reason.

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[Ben Antao]

Sorry, Augusto, I didn’t mean that as a flame-bait.

But thanks for clarifying what you mean by Konkani in written form.

Now I understand and in this sense my Konkani rendition will not pass “your test.”

 

Maybe if I relocated in Goa, I might improve my Konkani by talking to you and others.

 

But I am told that few Goans of your generation are speaking in Konkani regularly. English has taken over,

it seems.

 

Anyway, we can’t stop the march of progress, can we? 

 

Cheers.

Ben

 

From: augusto pinto

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 11:53 AM

To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: "Gonvllik Chitt"

 

[augusto pinto]

Dear Ben,

Speaking for myself I came to Goa at the age of 10 in 1971 without any knowledge of Konkani because my parents had decided perhaps before I was born that I would be better off knowing English than any other language.

Hence Konkani is my second tongue, or perhaps my third as I had to start learning Swahili when I started schooling in Kenya, all of which I have completely forgotten.

I learnt to read and write Konkani in Monte-de-Guirim school in the Antruzi dialect and Devanagari script and  I spoke it among my Catholic / Hindu friends in Sangolda and Porvorim where they each spoke in different dialects (not Antruzi).

When teaching at CES Cuncolim, I lived for a while in Cuncolim / Velim where I had to deal with the AVC variety of the language. (Arre tum keddona yettolo? - Hey when will you come?) Does anyone want to list the different varieties of the Konkani 'when' - kedna, keddona, ...

I can identify different dialects of the language. And although I am neither a master of speech or writing, and although my speech is made up of a mixture of dialects, I can manage well enough, but I always have to think when I speak or indeed write Konkani as opposed to English which comes very easily.

As for the environment in which I live the real situation in Goa is complex and is not what linguistic chauvinists try to make us believe.

Let me describe my own situation. In my college when I want a cup of coffee I have to speak in Hindi which is the link language for the Kannada speaking canteen help.

To my colleagues I speak English and Konkani in the staff room to those who are Goan; but English (and deliberately not Hindi) to those who come from other states.

In class I speak English but when I want to make a point or 'connect' with my students I speak Konkani.

Generally with those of my social class ie college educated, middle class Catholics or Hindus or Muslims, I may either speak English or Konkani and on occasion even Hindi depending on the preferences of my friend.

Often it happens that I speak in Konkani to him/her because they would feel more comfortable and s/he replies in English to make me more comfortable. When I speak to my wife when she is reasonable it is in English but on the not unusual occasion when she is pissed off with me she gives it to me in Konkani.

In the Mapusa market I speak in Konkani to the Muslim vegetable and fruit vendors who are Urdu/Hindi speakers.

It is true that English is spoken by the Bombay / East Africa / Gulf returned Catholic Goans although most though not all understand Konkani. The Goa born and bred Catholics and Hindus are more comfortable in their own form of Konkani.

The large number of people from various parts of India who have settled in Goa have made English and Hindi  their lingua franca and although they don't speak Konkani can understand it. However their children become adept at the language unless they go to a ICSE school like Sharda Mandir.

Our canteen has a high staff turnover. I have noticed that the staff who come mostly are willing to struggle with English and learn it and speak to me in that language as I teach them, but are not willing to reply or speak in Konkani even if they understand it.

I have just started to describe the linguistic landscape as seen by me and I doubt I have been comprehensive in any way. I don't guarantee that my experience will be the same for other inhabitants of Goa although their experiences will be equally complex.

For instance the Lamani in the Mapusa market hawk those typical mirror encrusted Lamani style garments. I have heard them speak in French and German and Japanese. I don't know to what level their conversations could proceed but they could manage to strike up conversations with the foreigners.

If I go to a shack in Calangute nobody understands Konkani. In fact in the beach belt Konkani is hardly understood by the person on the road. The Goan is probably safely ensconced at home.

In this way people coming from different classes / castes / religions / regions  speak in different tongues at different times for different reasons.

That multiplicity of languages which each of us has to negotiate with in our daily life  is our real Language.

Regards

Augusto

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[Ben Antao]

Wow! Augusto! Your response has so inspired me that

my reply goes in verse, not in prose.

 

Enjoy the sonnet below.

Mog asunv

Ben

 

-------------------------

 

A sonnet for Augusto

 

How do I praise you? Let me count the ways

First, your talent and flair for languages

Take my breath away. English during days

Hindi in canteen, Konknni in stages

 

With Goans, some students, and wife when pissed off

Plus range of Konkani accents picked up

In Cuncolim where people like to scoff

Tum keddona yettolo tribe of sup

 

After all this, you speak decent Konknni

In Mapusa bazaar to the Muslims

Not in Calangute to the Lamani

Who speak French, German to tourists, it seems

 

Goa today is indeed a melting pot

Turns folks like you into prized envious lot

 

Sep 16/13

 

----------------------

 

PS. Since last month I have given pause to short fiction in preference to poetry, mainly Shakespearean sonnets and alexandrines.

The great Bard wrote 154 sonnets, I reckon, but I aim to match his output, even exceed it by next August. Call me crazy!

 

 

From: augusto pinto

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 2:51 PM

To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: "Gonvllik Chitt"

 

Dear Ben,

[Alfred de Tavares]

---

Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 00:21:53 +0530

Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: "Gonvllik Chitt"

From: pint...@gmail.com
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Begging your pardon dear Prof, pls allow me to take off on a tagent: It concerns
a talk I have to give here, next week.

I would like to know whether Goa's, relatively miniscule Muslim population is
Sunni, Shia or mixed. If so what proportion? How has it been growing in recent
decades?

Besides my old friend, the Sheik Hassan, has there been any more influx in the L.A.?

My other great friend, the esquisitely debonair Abdul Razak is, sadly, no more. Great
memories.

Traditionally, how have they got along? Any other muslim minorities may be found
in Goa.

Also, cow-slaughter is still exclusively their prerogative?

Valmiky, would you pls inform too?

Please help out.

Much obliged.
Chacha

[augusto pinto]

Dear Ben

Thank you very much for immortalizing me in verse, although I'm not sure whether I deserve all that extravagant praise!

All the best in your endeavor to reinvent verse forms for modern times.

Cheers

Augusto

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[Janet Rubinoff]

Well said (or written), Augusto.� I have had similar problems trying to learn & speak Konkani over the years as I have worked all over Goa.� When I first came to Goa in 1978-79, I had a Brahmin teacher of Konkani, but when I said things (in my English-Konkani accent) to my friends in Carambolim (mostly Gauda and Bandari), they said I "couldn't say it (whatever phrase) that way, as I sounded like a stuck-up Brahmin!"� So they taught me a new village way to say various things.� And my Brahmin teacher then complained that I sounded like a lower caste/class villager!� ("a hick", maybe in English)
� So I have found Konkani difficult to speak over the years but can understand some, esp. when I have a longer stay in Goa.� I try, but it is indeed confusing.� Once when I thought I was saying something in Konkani, it turned out to be Hindi!
�� Whatever...
�Best,� Janet R.

On 13-09-16 2:51 PM, augusto pinto wrote:

Dear Ben,

Speaking for myself I came to Goa at the age of 10 in 1971 without any knowledge of Konkani because my parents had decided perhaps before I was born that I would be better off knowing English than any other language.

Hence Konkani is my second tongue, or perhaps my third as I had to start learning Swahili when I started schooling in Kenya, all of which I have completely forgotten.

I learnt to read and write Konkani in Monte-de-Guirim school in the Antruzi dialect and Devanagari script and� I spoke it among my Catholic / Hindu friends in Sangolda and Porvorim where they each spoke in different dialects (not Antruzi).

When teaching at CES Cuncolim, I lived for a while in Cuncolim / Velim where I had to deal with the AVC variety of the language. (Arre tum keddona yettolo? - Hey when will you come?) Does anyone want to list the different varieties of the Konkani 'when' - kedna, keddona, ...

I can identify different dialects of the language. And although I am neither a master of speech or writing, and although my speech is made up of a mixture of dialects, I can manage well enough, but I always have to think when I speak or indeed write Konkani as opposed to English which comes very easily.

As for the environment in which I live the real situation in Goa is complex and is not what linguistic chauvinists try to make us believe.

Let me describe my own situation. In my college when I want a cup of coffee I have to speak in Hindi which is the link language for the Kannada speaking canteen help.

To my colleagues I speak English and Konkani in the staff room to those who are Goan; but English (and deliberately not Hindi) to those who come from other states.

In class I speak English but when I want to make a point or 'connect' with my students I speak Konkani.

Generally with those of my social class ie college educated, middle class Catholics or Hindus or Muslims, I may either speak English or Konkani and on occasion even Hindi depending on the preferences of my friend.

Often it happens that I speak in Konkani to him/her because they would feel more comfortable and s/he replies in English to make me more comfortable. When I speak to my wife when she is reasonable it is in English but on the not unusual occasion when she is pissed off with me she gives it to me in Konkani.

In the Mapusa market I speak in Konkani to the Muslim vegetable and fruit vendors who are Urdu/Hindi speakers.

It is true that English is spoken by the Bombay / East Africa / Gulf returned Catholic Goans although most though not all understand Konkani. The Goa born and bred Catholics and Hindus are more comfortable in their own form of Konkani.

The large number of people from various parts of India who have settled in Goa have made English and Hindi� their lingua franca and although they don't speak Konkani can understand it. However their children become adept at the language unless they go to a ICSE school like Sharda Mandir.

Our canteen has a high staff turnover. I have noticed that the staff who come mostly are willing to struggle with English and learn it and speak to me in that language as I teach them, but are not willing to reply or speak in Konkani even if they understand it.

I have just started to describe the linguistic landscape as seen by me and I doubt I have been comprehensive in any way. I don't guarantee that my experience will be the same for other inhabitants of Goa although their experiences will be equally complex.

For instance the Lamani in the Mapusa market hawk those typical mirror encrusted Lamani style garments. I have heard them speak in French and German and Japanese. I don't know to what level their conversations could proceed but they could manage to strike up conversations with the foreigners.

If I go to a shack in Calangute nobody understands Konkani. In fact in the beach belt Konkani is hardly understood by the person on the road. The Goan is probably safely ensconced at home.

In this way people coming from different classes / castes / religions / regions� speak in different tongues at different times for different reasons.

That multiplicity of languages which each of us has to negotiate with in our daily life� is our real Language.

Regards

Augusto

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Ben Antao <ben....@rogers.com> wrote:

Sorry, Augusto, I didn�t mean that as a flame-bait.

But thanks for clarifying what you mean by Konkani in written form.

Now I understand and in this sense my Konkani rendition will not pass �your test.�

�

Maybe if I relocated in Goa, I might improve my Konkani by talking to you and others.

�

But I am told that few Goans of your generation are speaking in Konkani regularly. English has taken over,

it seems.

�

Anyway, we can�t stop the march of progress, can we?�

�

Cheers.

Ben

�

From: augusto pinto

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 11:53 AM

To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: "Gonvllik Chitt"

�

Dear Ben,

�

�

First of all, your Konkani is not at all like Padri bhas. I can read and understand your style of writing in Konkani.

�

I agree with you: Salu's Konkani is quite the equivalent of 'Plain English'.

�

Second, I wish to make an observation about syntax:

�

The Devnagari syntax that our friend Augusto Pinto follows is not what I would follow...

�

If Augusto wants to follow the Devnagari syntax, that is his choice. He should not impose it on other Goans who

want to write in Konkani in Roman script.�

�

I know a flame bait when I see one, and can ignore it when I want to. But I guess this is too rich to resist.

Where did I ever say, my dear Ben-bab, that I want to follow a 'Devanagari syntax' whatever that may mean? I will have my own opinions but who am I to impose anything on anyone else? You're being a naughty boy when you put words in my mouth like this.

Very briefly what I think, is as follows: I believe that the Konkani that all of us speak, no matter which dialect, is spoken in short, crisp sentences, often is short phrases which convey the whole meaning, although interspersed with a few long ones for variety.

When this is written, in no matter which script whether Roman or Devanagari or whatever, it results in pleasing and easily understandable communication.

However what is happening to the Konkani written by priests, is the same that used to happen to English, which used to be written in a convoluted style, when it used to follow a Latin sentence construction,�

There is a politics behind this but I'm not going to talk too much about this but rather I'll direct you to George Orwell on this issue: 'Politics and the English Language' https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm and request you to see a parallel happening in the Padri Bhas dialect of Konkani.

Regards

Augusto

�

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Augusto Pinto
40, Novo Portugal
Moira, Bardez
Goa, India
E pint...@gmail.com
P 0832-2470336
M 9881126350

[Ben Antao]

You’re welcome, my friend.

Cheers

Ben

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Augusto Pinto
40, Novo Portugal
Moira, Bardez
Goa, India
E pint...@gmail.com
P 0832-2470336
M 9881126350

[Cecil Pinto]

Dear Augusto,

This is truly brilliant and insightful. Please expand and re-write in detail and it get it published or at least archived on some website where it can be made a reference point for anyone wanting to know about languages spoken in Goa and by Goans. Seriously.

Cheers!

Cecil

==========

[Cecil Pinto]

Dear Ben,

Augusto's piece and your sonnet response have really made my day. Keep up the great job of keeping us entertained and informed.

Cheers!

Cecil

=========== 

[augusto pinto]

Dear Janet

Your and Cecil's comments are flattering. But I realize that I really haven't even started on describing the linguistic diversity of Goa.

Janet points out the problems that are faced when dealing with the different dialects of Konkani - some of which are privileged and others which are not.

But my own description is deficient. Two notable omissions from the description are Marathi and Portuguese. Both of these are mother tongues of large (the Marathi of Hindus) and relatively minuscule (Portuguese of a certain strata of Catholics)

However these languages are prominent in the dialects used by Hindus and Catholics. The nasal sounds of Portuguese are reproduced in the Marathi of Goans. Marathi words are used in the Antruzi and other dialects which are used by Hindus, which lead people uncomfortable with these to complain that they are Marathi-ized Konkani. But just like that the Konkani of Catholics have a larger amount of Portuguese and English borrow words.

Once I asked my colleague a question which I thought was very simple: Arre tumi XYZ uzar korina? My colleague comes originally from Valpoi region. He looked at me in puzzlement and asked me: Sir, 'uzar' mhallear kitem? Then I realized that 'uzar' was a Portuguese loan word. When he understood what I was saying he said: Ami 'vapar' mhunntat 'uzar' nhai.

But there are other words like 'zonel' (window) or 'kodel' (chair) or 'mez' (table)which are also Portuguese loan words which are accepted without any complaint.

Then there are the languages brought back by our foreign returned Goenkars, like Swahili and Arabic. So one can hear the occasional Jambo Bwana or Salaam Alaikum.

But what about the many communities from different lands who have made Goa their home? Bengalis, Gujaratis, Malayalees, Tamilians,  Kannadigas and a variety of North Indians are among those. Many of these have intermarried with each other and indeed  with many Goans.

One can just imagine the linguistic hurdles they have to negotiate to make their way in Goa.

Regards

Augusto

 

On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Janet Rubinoff <jan...@yorku.ca> wrote:

Well said (or written), Augusto.  I have had similar problems trying to learn & speak Konkani over the years as I have worked all over Goa.  When I first came to Goa in 1978-79, I had a Brahmin teacher of Konkani, but when I said things (in my English-Konkani accent) to my friends in Carambolim (mostly Gauda and Bandari), they said I "couldn't say it (whatever phrase) that way, as I sounded like a stuck-up Brahmin!"  So they taught me a new village way to say various things.  And my Brahmin teacher then complained that I sounded like a lower caste/class villager!  ("a hick", maybe in English)
  So I have found Konkani difficult to speak over the years but can understand some, esp. when I have a longer stay in Goa.  I try, but it is indeed confusing.  Once when I thought I was saying something in Konkani, it turned out to be Hindi!
   Whatever...
 Best,  Janet R.

On 13-09-16 2:51 PM, augusto pinto wrote:

Dear Ben,

Speaking for myself I came to Goa at the age of 10 in 1971 without any knowledge of Konkani because my parents had decided perhaps before I was born that I would be better off knowing English than any other language.

Hence Konkani is my second tongue, or perhaps my third as I had to start learning Swahili when I started schooling in Kenya, all of which I have completely forgotten.

I learnt to read and write Konkani in Monte-de-Guirim school in the Antruzi dialect and Devanagari script and  I spoke it among my Catholic / Hindu friends in Sangolda and Porvorim where they each spoke in different dialects (not Antruzi).

When teaching at CES Cuncolim, I lived for a while in Cuncolim / Velim where I had to deal with the AVC variety of the language. (Arre tum keddona yettolo? - Hey when will you come?) Does anyone want to list the different varieties of the Konkani 'when' - kedna, keddona, ...

I can identify different dialects of the language. And although I am neither a master of speech or writing, and although my speech is made up of a mixture of dialects, I can manage well enough, but I always have to think when I speak or indeed write Konkani as opposed to English which comes very easily.

As for the environment in which I live the real situation in Goa is complex and is not what linguistic chauvinists try to make us believe.

Let me describe my own situation. In my college when I want a cup of coffee I have to speak in Hindi which is the link language for the Kannada speaking canteen help.

To my colleagues I speak English and Konkani in the staff room to those who are Goan; but English (and deliberately not Hindi) to those who come from other states.

In class I speak English but when I want to make a point or 'connect' with my students I speak Konkani.

Generally with those of my social class ie college educated, middle class Catholics or Hindus or Muslims, I may either speak English or Konkani and on occasion even Hindi depending on the preferences of my friend.

Often it happens that I speak in Konkani to him/her because they would feel more comfortable and s/he replies in English to make me more comfortable. When I speak to my wife when she is reasonable it is in English but on the not unusual occasion when she is pissed off with me she gives it to me in Konkani.

In the Mapusa market I speak in Konkani to the Muslim vegetable and fruit vendors who are Urdu/Hindi speakers.

It is true that English is spoken by the Bombay / East Africa / Gulf returned Catholic Goans although most though not all understand Konkani. The Goa born and bred Catholics and Hindus are more comfortable in their own form of Konkani.

The large number of people from various parts of India who have settled in Goa have made English and Hindi  their lingua franca and although they don't speak Konkani can understand it. However their children become adept at the language unless they go to a ICSE school like Sharda Mandir.

Our canteen has a high staff turnover. I have noticed that the staff who come mostly are willing to struggle with English and learn it and speak to me in that language as I teach them, but are not willing to reply or speak in Konkani even if they understand it.

I have just started to describe the linguistic landscape as seen by me and I doubt I have been comprehensive in any way. I don't guarantee that my experience will be the same for other inhabitants of Goa although their experiences will be equally complex.

For instance the Lamani in the Mapusa market hawk those typical mirror encrusted Lamani style garments. I have heard them speak in French and German and Japanese. I don't know to what level their conversations could proceed but they could manage to strike up conversations with the foreigners.

If I go to a shack in Calangute nobody understands Konkani. In fact in the beach belt Konkani is hardly understood by the person on the road. The Goan is probably safely ensconced at home.

In this way people coming from different classes / castes / religions / regions  speak in different tongues at different times for different reasons.

That multiplicity of languages which each of us has to negotiate with in our daily life  is our real Language.

Regards

Augusto

On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Ben Antao <ben....@rogers.com> wrote:

Sorry, Augusto, I didn’t mean that as a flame-bait.

But thanks for clarifying what you mean by Konkani in written form.

Now I understand and in this sense my Konkani rendition will not pass “your test.”

 

Maybe if I relocated in Goa, I might improve my Konkani by talking to you and others.

 

But I am told that few Goans of your generation are speaking in Konkani regularly. English has taken over,

it seems.

 

Anyway, we can’t stop the march of progress, can we? 

 

Cheers.

Ben

 

From: augusto pinto

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 11:53 AM

To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: "Gonvllik Chitt"

 

Dear Ben,

 

 

First of all, your Konkani is not at all like Padri bhas. I can read and understand your style of writing in Konkani.

 

I agree with you: Salu's Konkani is quite the equivalent of 'Plain English'.

Second, I wish to make an observation about syntax:

 

The Devnagari syntax that our friend Augusto Pinto follows is not what I would follow...

 

If Augusto wants to follow the Devnagari syntax, that is his choice. He should not impose it on other Goans who

want to write in Konkani in Roman script. 

I know a flame bait when I see one, and can ignore it when I want to. But I guess this is too rich to resist.

Where did I ever say, my dear Ben-bab, that I want to follow a 'Devanagari syntax' whatever that may mean? I will have my own opinions but who am I to impose anything on anyone else? You're being a naughty boy when you put words in my mouth like this.

Very briefly what I think, is as follows: I believe that the Konkani that all of us speak, no matter which dialect, is spoken in short, crisp sentences, often is short phrases which convey the whole meaning, although interspersed with a few long ones for variety.

When this is written, in no matter which script whether Roman or Devanagari or whatever, it results in pleasing and easily understandable communication.

However what is happening to the Konkani written by priests, is the same that used to happen to English, which used to be written in a convoluted style, when it used to follow a Latin sentence construction, 

There is a politics behind this but I'm not going to talk too much about this but rather I'll direct you to George Orwell on this issue: 'Politics and the English Language' https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm and request you to see a parallel happening in the Padri Bhas dialect of Konkani.

Regards

Augusto

 

--

[Ben Antao]

Thanks, Cecil, for your kind words of appreciation.

I try to make my writing and contributions on this forum interesting and entertaining.

 

But I need an equally interesting foil on the other side to make it happen.

Augusto Pinto is just perfect in this role. While a few might have thought we were about

to come to blows last week, this week they’ll change their minds.

 

Since you brought up the subject, Cecil, may I ask others to open themselves up and communicate

truthfully in sufficient detail as Augusto has done about Goan books and writers and Konkani.

 

So I may get to composed another sonnet!

 

Cheers

Ben

 

From: Cecil Pinto

Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 12:30 PM

To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Bhov Xrest Filipe Neri Ferrao: "Gonvllik Chitt"

 

[vidyapai .]

Friends,
Since this is confession time let me add my bit:

I'm not Goan, I think in English and speak the Mangalore/Kerala brand of Konkani but I work with Goan writing in Devnagri. So the linguistic hurdles Augusto mentions keep cropping up all the time. Today one has dictionaries/friends one can call up in Goa who can clarify a point, but the early days were very tough.

I still cringe when I think of Chandrakant Keni's short story Abodh Mog which was the piece Katha and the British Council had set for the Translation Contest in'93. This was the first Konkani story I was reading and Goan words like 'vhistid' 'turmana' 'sunasha' 'dongor' 'samko' 'payas' 'janto' 'shenilley' 'takli' were beyond my comprehension. It was still possible to get around them by guessing wildly and making sense from the context but I must mention 3 instances that had me stumped.

1--  In our Konkani 3rd person singular is 'Toh' He, 'Ti' she and 'tem' it. Here the girl Jayu is  'tem' right through the story, and believe me, I thought it was a mis-print!

2 -- There's a phrase 'malbaka haath lagilyache khos bhogli'. I didn't know what malab was, 'sky' is 'akash' as far as we are concerned and I had no idea what the fellow was touching.

3 -- 'Santan renderan shilon ghalun ...' I didn't know what 'render' was. Since Santan was a proper name I assumed Render, like Ribeir, was a Christian surname!

Today I can handle written Konkani better, but the various accents and the 'lilt' of spoken Goan Konkani beats me. And when someone speaks rapid-fire on the phone ...I'm lost.

Regards

Vidya Pai.

[Eugene Correia]

Given the fact that Konkani is spoken differently in different regions of Goa, the subject of the diversity of Konkani is getting trivial. Though i come from Salcette, i have often been told by my close Salcette relatives that I speak "Bardezi" Konkani. The reason is because most of Konkani words are sounding Bardezi though I make no particular effort to speak that way. On the other hand, I have been told by my Bardezi friends that I speak "Xatttikar" langauge.

Admittedly, I speak "Bombay Konkani", if ever there's is such a dialect. It's a mixture,just like Bombaiyat Hindi. It has its peculiar tone. From deep north to deep south, Konkani is varied that people from each area don't fully understand the other.

What can one do when one's tongue behaves in a particular manner? I often mind the Jamaicans speak differently than the Trinididians, though they speak Creole. The Guyanese have their own way of speaking English. The Black Guyanese speak their own brand than the Indian Guyanese. I have often been caught between the language crossfire of these two communities.

Uniformity in spoken Konkani would be almost impossible to achieve in Goa. With the  rise of the English-speaking Goans, especially the college educated Goans, I fear Konkani would lose its appeal in a few decades.

When I talk to my nieces and nephews in Konkani they reply in English. I have to shout at them. to speak Konkani with me. But it rarely works.

Eugene Correia

[Ivan Arthur]

Dear Augusto,

Your emails may yet evolve into a treatise on spoken Konkani. Keep going!

That there are so many Konkanis bodes well for the language. It is robust and durable because it allows for change. Like English. It's a  living language today (unlike Latin and Sanskrit) because of its openness to change and willingness to borrow from other languages. And there are so many Englishes spoken today. All acceptable in their own milieu. If you heard the English we spoke in the East Indian village of Amboli in the Bombay of the 40s, you would need an English to English dictionary to understand us.

I suspect that the Konkani spoken by Goans -- both Hindu and Catholic -- has more linguistic sinew than that spoken by the Mangaloreans, They use the Kannada script and borrow much of their vocabulary from Kannada and Tullu. Apart from the two Konkanis spoken by the Hindus and Catholics, I doubt there is much variety there. But then I have not done any serious study on the subject. 

My own Konkani is a joke book because I picked up the language from my Mangalorean grandmother's English. And my mother's attempt at Marathi in Bombay. Spliced by the Goan Konkani I picked up from our Goan sacristan's solfeggio we heard during choir practices. 

I am being educated by your email exchanges. I'm grateful.

Cheers.

Ivan

Anyway, we can’t stop the march of progress, can we?<mime-attachment.png>