Using movie type trailers to sell books

[Cecil Pinto]

http://scroll.in/article/727941/amishs-scion-of-ikshvaku-when-we-live-blogged-the-trailer

[augusto pinto]

Cecil, instead of marking your presence on GBC with these no-doubt-interesting-but-ultimately-time-pass- forwards, why don't you more often write something that expresses your own views?

I somehow get the feeling that the unpleasant GW episode has knackered you for good. I may be wrong, and if this is the case, please prove me wrong, for I would love to hear the voice or the real Cecil, the Cecil who once wrote such searing middles for Gomantak Times.

Augusto

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 10:20 PM, Cecil Pinto <cecil...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://scroll.in/article/727941/amishs-scion-of-ikshvaku-when-we-live-blogged-the-trailer

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[Selma C]

The problem Augusto is Facebook. We are all having a super time hanging out together on FB. Why don't you join us? As they say at Katlick parties in Goa, we are missing you only man.

Best,

Selma

Sent from my iPad

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

Trailers can build interest... but not is an Amish-in-marketing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZChjGaX5_4

P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter: @fn Facebook: fredericknoronha

Goa,1556 Shared Content at https://archive.org/details/goa1556

[Sushila]

Dear members of Goa Book Club,
Gomant Vidya Niketan,Margao will host   a book discussion on 29th May 2015 at 6 p.m as a part of its monthly Aswad programme.
Dr.Sushila Sawant Mendes will speak on Dr.Maria Aurora Couto's books:Goa- A daughters story and Filomena's journey.There will also be an interactive session between the author and the audience thereafter.
Do come.

---

From: 'Selma C' via The Goa Book Club
Sent: ‎26-‎05-‎2015 00:10
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Using movie type trailers to sell books

[augusto pinto]

Dear GBC members,

Subject to the missus's not having some alternative and unavoidable plans there will be place for four goodly and kindly GBC folks in the sexy lipstick red Swift which if you think is a sexist description of a car - think twice.

No less a feminist warrior than the renowned Adv. Albertina Almeida has sat in it and has not found it wanting in any respect.
Best
Augusto
PS: Hurry. Offer open till seats last.

[augusto pinto]

Dear Sushila:

I know that Maria Aurora wrote a somewhat glowing introduction to your LMB book. (Having said that - is Aurora-bai's note so attractive? I don't know. Need to read it again)

What I want to say Sushila is - don't use the occasion to repay the favor  Aurora did to you.

No doubt flattering her will earn you many brownie points with her, but she is a shrewd enough Bamon to know what is flattery and what is honesty.

You will do her a bigger favor by giving her an honest assessment of her work as you a person, and as Sushila the Chardo academic.

Remember unlike most of us who don't like to reveal our origins,  Aurora openly spoke about herself as a Bamon in her two autobiographical books.

Without denying that because she was a Bamon it was easier for to make those revelations we should not deny that she had to have a great deal of courage to open herself up to public scrutiny.

Best
Augusto

[sushila mendes]

Dear Augusto,

I just read your post.I know that you live on a Bamon - Chardo -Sudhir -gaonkar - morador diet.This is not my diet.You need to apologize to me for a label (Chardo academic) I have never claimed. Btw see you on the 29th so that you can frame your judgement after hearing the  talk.

A special parking place will be reserved for your red beauty!

Sushila

[Jose Colaco]

Dear Sushila,

Well stated !

Why Augusto abuses others, perhaps NOT even Augusto knows.

I have asked this before of FN, I will ask again: IS FN vicariously liable for Augusto's abuse on GBC?

jc

[augusto pinto]

Although many of us may not like it, facts are facts, If you think that facts are insulting or abusive, that's your funeral. Just because you are in a state of denial Dotor jc by trying to cover your upper caste origins by clowning around calling yourself a kunbi, does not change facts.

If you look closely enough you will see how your origins colour your writing and the choices you make. Damodar Mauzo writes in an essay ' Any writer's first literary attempts will reveal his/her caste'. (He actually goes on to clarify that what he means here by caste is character- the word he uses is 'jaat') But I think it is significant that he says this in the context of Jayanti Naik.

To come back to what I was saying, when Sushila finds the term 'Chardo intellectual' insulting, she too is in a state of denial. At the GBC meet called to discuss her work on Luis de Menezes Braganza I pointed out that the individual she was praising calling him a secularist and liberal and whatnot was only actually asking for the old privileges that the rich, and that meant the mainly upper caste Bamons and Chardos in those days, and which had been revoked by Salazar's Acto Colonial be brought back.

Why, even the choice of studying LMB reveals something for even though the word Chardo is never mentioned in the book, if one looks at the silences then one will ask why LMB, why not Caetano Vitorino de Faria or a Peres de Silva or a Costa.

More pertinently why does nobody wish to research into the oppression and humiliation that several castes had to suffer from their upper caste overlords?

Merely taking crude potshots at me because you find it politically incorrect to trumpet your own origins openly is not going to fool anybody jc.

Augusto

[Jose]

Augusto Pinto wrote (inter alia)

Just because you are in a state of denial Dotor jc by trying to cover your upper caste origins by clowning around calling yourself a kunbi, does not change facts.......Merely taking crude potshots at me because you find it politically incorrect to trumpet your own origins openly is not going to fool anybody jc.

RESPONSE: 

Augusto..........Please continue to exercise your fundamental right to write total NONSENSE.

The question to FN remains: Does he (FN) believe that he is vicariously liable for the abuse that Augusto perpetrates on GBC?

jc

[Selma Cardoso]

Caste is not a gender nor a race so wherever unnecessary it should not be used as a location of identity.

The term 'privilege' as we know it today started with 'white privilege' and pertains to, not direct privilege but the myriad of invisible advantages one attains just from being white. Activists then translated that premise to caste privilege, rightly so. However LMB would have been unacquainted with this concept. He would have unaware that his mere location accorded him privilege not just his acting on caste. So in protesting against the Acto Colonial he would have unaware that it was mainly the Metropolitan Portuguese-turned-out-Goan that benefitted.

To the ideologically driven men of his time, the Acto Colonial was an affront, a step back into the drudgery of a colonial existence. Their fight to regain a shred of dignity should not be minimised because they didn't address the question of caste. Which brings me to the next point.

It is another concept rather unwisely borrowed from young Western academics, that of an integrated revolt. This concept sprung up from the fight for gay rights which many argue is basically a fight for the privileges of upper-class white men. That it is not inclusive of other ethnicities nor economies. This concept has also, but not as successfully been borrowed in India.

The problem I have with this concept is that rebellions and revolutions are driven by those who have agency. If upper-class, white men have agency to bring about change and that change can ultimately benefit society at large, then why should there be a relentless nit-picking? The suffragettes is a good example of a movement led by privileged white woman that changed the lives of everyone.

This I suppose is Augusto's point. That LMB was not inclusive and that somehow he should have consulted with other factions before becoming a spokesperson. The fact is such wide consultation and inclusion exists only in the halls of academia. Real life is different.

Lastly why don't people write about the oppressed?  Well, a lot has already been written about caste oppression. Others will add to it. Not every author has to address it. But why do so many writers find it difficult to undertake subaltern studies? It's because it cannot be done through archival research. The poor and the disenfranchised didn't leave behind letters, long-winded memoirs and memos. Subaltern studies take intensive field work which has to be funded. So you see dear Augusto, choices may be shaped by more than a subconscious desire to align with your own type.

Lastly, I do wish there wasn't this constant reference to people' caste. I don't see how it addresses the caste issue when you inform us of other people's 'upper-caste origins' and in some subtle way elude to their superiority because of it. (I know you don't mean to but you do anyway. For why else would you only call on the bamons and chardos on the list and never call out the sudhirs and gauddas. Because even in today's Goa the latter is a by-word for the underprivileged and the lesser mortal.) Caste is the most irrelevant point of reference in the 21st century. It points to neither your education nor your economic status nor your character nor your health. So unless necessary, do avoid using it as a location of identity.

A bientot.

Selma

 

---

From: augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com>
To: "goa-bo...@googlegroups.com" <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 May 2015, 3:15
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Discussion on books

[Braz MENEZES]

The more some (or should it be 'same') members of the GBC dwell on the caste system as an obsession, the more tedious it becomes for other members who may not be interested in flogging a (very) dead horse  and would like to move on.

For a change of theme I would like to share, with permission of the sender, a letter I have just received:

Quote: Goans were special people!

 

Sunday, May 24, 2015

Dear Mr. Menezes ~

As an American-born girl (late 1952) who grew up in Karen-Langata, was schooled (at Nairobi Primary & Limuru Girls' Schools), and who worked (at AMREF at Wilson Airport) between 1961-1981, I was absolutely rivetted by the first two of your Matata trilogy, which I read on Kindle, back-to-back in rapid fire succession they were so good!  Excellent is actually the better accolade!

You really capture and convey the whole "Kenya experience," such that the reader can practically smell it.  I both laughed and cried at your depictions of the various situations in which you found yourself, a true rarity when reading memoires, and one which can't be over-appreciated.  Thank you so much for sharing your life so intimately and vividly!  Your books are just gems!

For June, July & August of 1960, when my parents were deciding which of the three East African countries they wanted to settle down in order to start their photographic safari company for American tourists, the family (3 kids) resided at the Sinbad Hotel in Malindi.  There, my younger brother & I (ages 6 & 7) were befriended by the son, Peter Menezes, of the hotel's Goan head chef.  Peter was an apprentice chef at the time, and used to give us handfuls of hot roasted nuts out the back door of the Sinbad kitchen, and he would also come swim out front with us in his spare time sometimes, allowing us to jump off his broad shoulders into the on-coming waves.  Your book reminded me so often of Peter, such a gentlemanly gentleman.  He was probably all of 20 years old at the time, but to us he was our hero, and he set a lifelong precedent in our minds that Goans were special people!  We encountered him again over our return to the Sinbad a year and two later, but then my parents (who had divorced by then) each bought a house in Malindi whereupon we didn't frequent the Sinbad on our school holidays.  We thus lost touch with Peter & his father, but I have often wondered over the years what ever became of them.  I have a feeling they might have immigrated (or is it emigrated?) to another country as so many Goans did at around independence, much to Kenya's detriment, if you ask me.  I just hope that whatever their fate, it wasn't a cruel one. 

Like you, my stepfather, who was born in Kenya (1933) and raised in the Aberdares, worked pre-independence with Tom Mboya to try to help Kenya gain independence.  I'll never forget celebrating in the streets of Malindi on my 11th birthday, 12 December 1963! 

It was an amazing country in which to have had the good fortune of growing up, I'm sure you'd agree, with and because of its multi-culturism and the rich experiences not readily found elsewhere on the planet.  I wouldn't change my background for anything!

I am writing today to ask you if or when the 3rd book of the trilogy will be available on Kindle, if you know.  I've GOT to find out if you & your beloved Saboti reconnect after your disastrous meeting in London when you find her married and pregnant, and each go your separate ways (evoking my tears!), and then after discovering her again, as single-status individuals, 44 years later on the steps of the Tate Gallery.  It would seem the potential is there for re-igniting the flame between you.  I really NEED to read what happens next, not just between you & Saboti, but also with your parents & siblings, your Kenyan Goan friends, and your life for the 44 years in-between the parting with Saboti and your rediscovery of her at the Tate Gallery.  For example, did you call her on the night of Obama's election, as promised?

Thanks again for two terrific reads!  I've highly recommended the first two books to all my Kenya friends & family.  I'd love to know the title of the third book (I'll see if I can't Google it) and if/when it'll be available on Kindle.

Wishing you all the best, hoping that life has treated you well in Toronto.  Asante sana, bwana.  Bahati mingi!  Tuta unana!

Sincerely,

Dancy Mills, Baltimore, MD

Braz Menezes

---

Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 07:21:40 +0000
From: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Discussion on books

Caste is not a gender nor a race so wherever unnecessary it should not be used as a location of identity.

The term 'privilege' as we know it today started with 'white privilege' and pertains to, not direct privilege but the myriad of invisible advantages one attains just from being white. Activists then translated that premise to caste privilege, rightly so. However LMB would have been unacquainted with this concept. He would have unaware that his mere location accorded him privilege not just his acting on caste. So in protesting against the Acto Colonial he would have unaware that it was mainly the Metropolitan Portuguese-turned-out-Goan that benefitted.

To the ideologically driven men of his time, the Acto Colonial was an affront, a step back into the drudgery of a colonial existence. Their fight to regain a shred of dignity should not be minimised because they didn't address the question of caste. Which brings me to the next point.

It is another concept rather unwisely borrowed from young Western academics, that of an integrated revolt. This concept sprung up from the fight for gay rights which many argue is basically a fight for the privileges of upper-class white men. That it is not inclusive of other ethnicities nor economies. This concept has also, but not as successfully been borrowed in India.

The problem I have with this concept is that rebellions and revolutions are driven by those who have agency. If upper-class, white men have agency to bring about change and that change can ultimately benefit society at large, then why should there be a relentless nit-picking? The suffragettes is a good example of a movement led by privileged white woman that changed the lives of everyone.

This I suppose is Augusto's point. That LMB was not inclusive and that somehow he should have consulted with other factions before becoming a spokesperson. The fact is such wide consultation and inclusion exists only in the halls of academia. Real life is different.

Lastly why don't people write about the oppressed?  Well, a lot has already been written about caste oppression. Others will add to it. Not every author has to address it. But why do so many writers find it difficult to undertake subaltern studies? It's because it cannot be done through archival research. The poor and the disenfranchised didn't leave behind letters, long-winded memoirs and memos. Subaltern studies take intensive field work which has to be funded. So you see dear Augusto, choices may be shaped by more than a subconscious desire to align with your own type.

Lastly, I do wish there wasn't this constant reference to people' caste. I don't see how it addresses the caste issue when you inform us of other people's 'upper-caste origins' and in some subtle way elude to their superiority because of it. (I know you don't mean to but you do anyway. For why else would you only call on the bamons and chardos on the list and never call out the sudhirs and gauddas. Because even in today's Goa the latter is a by-word for the underprivileged and the lesser mortal.) Caste is the most irrelevant point of reference in the 21st century. It points to neither your education nor your economic status nor your character nor your health. So unless necessary, do avoid using it as a location of identity.

A bientot.

Selma

 

---

From: augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com>
To: "goa-bo...@googlegroups.com" <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 May 2015, 3:15
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Discussion on books

Although many of us may not like it, facts are facts, If you think that facts are insulting or abusive, that's your funeral. Just because you are in a state of denial Dotor jc by trying to cover your upper caste origins by clowning around calling yourself a kunbi, does not change facts.

If you look closely enough you will see how your origins colour your writing and the choices you make. Damodar Mauzo writes in an essay ' Any writer's first literary attempts will reveal his/her caste'. (He actually goes on to clarify that what he means here by caste is character- the word he uses is 'jaat') But I think it is significant that he says this in the context of Jayanti Naik.

To come back to what I was saying, when Sushila finds the term 'Chardo intellectual' insulting, she too is in a state of denial. At the GBC meet called to discuss her work on Luis de Menezes Braganza I pointed out that the individual she was praising calling him a secularist and liberal and whatnot was only actually asking for the old privileges that the rich, and that meant the mainly upper caste Bamons and Chardos in those days, and which had been revoked by Salazar's Acto Colonial be brought back.

Why, even the choice of studying LMB reveals something for even though the word Chardo is never mentioned in the book, if one looks at the silences then one will ask why LMB, why not Caetano Vitorino de Faria or a Peres de Silva or a Costa.

More pertinently why does nobody wish to research into the oppression and humiliation that several castes had to suffer from their upper caste overlords?

Merely taking crude potshots at me because you find it politically incorrect to trumpet your own origins openly is not going to fool anybody jc.

Augusto

[augusto pinto]

Dear Selma,

Thanks for your very interesting intervention. For my response read inline:

Selma: On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 12:51 PM, 'Selma Cardoso' via The Goa Book Club <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Caste is not a gender nor a race so wherever unnecessary it should not be used as a location of identity.

Augusto: Caste is definitely not a gender :) But is it not akin to race? You are entering almost innocently into a long standing controversy, where the Indian Govt has been trying its level best to proclaim that being casteist does not mean being racist as many many NGOs in India have been asserting. 

Selma:The term 'privilege' as we know it today started with 'white privilege' and pertains to, not direct privilege but the myriad of invisible advantages one attains just from being white. Activists then translated that premise to caste privilege, rightly so.

Augusto: Agreed.

Selma: However LMB would have been unacquainted with this concept. He would have unaware that his mere location accorded him privilege not just his acting on caste. So in protesting against the Acto Colonial he would have unaware that it was mainly the Metropolitan Portuguese-turned-out-Goan that benefitted.

Augusto: Yes the nature of hegemony is such that one never does know sometimes which side one is on. I may be critical about capitalism, but without even realizing that I have a bank account, one of the cornerstones of capitalism. So isn't there a contradiction there? Of course there is but then what is to be done? 

Selma: To the ideologically driven men of his time, the Acto Colonial was an affront, a step back into the drudgery of a colonial existence. Their fight to regain a shred of dignity should not be minimised because they didn't address the question of caste. Which brings me to the next point.

Augusto: Yeah, I agree. It is difficult to understand the compromises that we make when we are in the throes of hegemonic control. But nevertheless compromises, whether conscious or unconscious, were made and should be pointed out when we are analyzing their work.

 

Selma: It is another concept rather unwisely borrowed from young Western academics, that of an integrated revolt. This concept sprung up from the fight for gay rights which many argue is basically a fight for the privileges of upper-class white men. That it is not inclusive of other ethnicities nor economies. This concept has also, but not as successfully been borrowed in India.

Augusto: Your argument and to be honest isn't clear and so are your theoretical sources. 

Selma: The problem I have with this concept is that rebellions and revolutions are driven by those who have agency. If upper-class, white men have agency to bring about change and that change can ultimately benefit society at large, then why should there be a relentless nit-picking? The suffragettes is a good example of a movement led by privileged white woman that changed the lives of everyone.

OK. So? If those with agency are helpful they should be praised, but why should those with agency who are not helpful not be criticized?

LMB was a contemporary, indeed cousin of Tristao B. Cunha. But compared to the revolutionary T B Cunha, LMB was an arch conservative. Sushila told me that TBC actually gave away his lands to his mundkars - and this, long before the Mundkar Act was passed. This is real daring action.

Selma: This I suppose is Augusto's point. That LMB was not inclusive and that somehow he should have consulted with other factions before becoming a spokesperson. The fact is such wide consultation and inclusion exists only in the halls of academia. Real life is different.

Augusto: Yeah, Selma, what you say is true. All talk now about those dead and gone is academic, but then there are those like Tristao de Braganza Cunha who didn't just talk but acted on his convictions. 

Selma: Lastly why don't people write about the oppressed?  Well, a lot has already been written about caste oppression. Others will add to it. Not every author has to address it. But why do so many writers find it difficult to undertake subaltern studies? It's because it cannot be done through archival research. The poor and the disenfranchised didn't leave behind letters, long-winded memoirs and memos. Subaltern studies take intensive field work which has to be funded. So you see dear Augusto, choices may be shaped by more than a subconscious desire to align with your own type.

Augusto: OK agreed. So we must wait for some well funded foreign scholar to teach us our history. Ho hum.

Selma: Lastly, I do wish there wasn't this constant reference to people' caste. I don't see how it addresses the caste issue when you inform us of other people's 'upper-caste origins' and in some subtle way elude to their superiority because of it. (I know you don't mean to but you do anyway. For why else would you only call on the bamons and chardos on the list and never call out the sudhirs and gauddas. Because even in today's Goa the latter is a by-word for the underprivileged and the lesser mortal.) Caste is the most irrelevant point of reference in the 21st century. It points to neither your education nor your economic status nor your character nor your health. So unless necessary, do avoid using it as a location of identity.

Augusto: Thank you for your free advice, Selma, which like most unsolicited advice I will duly ignore. One of the privileges of being upper caste is that you believe that you are casteless or that you don't believe in caste. The lower down the caste ladder you are, you don't need any reminding. So...

Cheers!

Augusto

 

---

From: augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com>
To: "goa-bo...@googlegroups.com" <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 May 2015, 3:15
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Discussion on books

Although many of us may not like it, facts are facts, If you think that facts are insulting or abusive, that's your funeral. Just because you are in a state of denial Dotor jc by trying to cover your upper caste origins by clowning around calling yourself a kunbi, does not change facts.

If you look closely enough you will see how your origins colour your writing and the choices you make. Damodar Mauzo writes in an essay ' Any writer's first literary attempts will reveal his/her caste'. (He actually goes on to clarify that what he means here by caste is character- the word he uses is 'jaat') But I think it is significant that he says this in the context of Jayanti Naik.

To come back to what I was saying, when Sushila finds the term 'Chardo intellectual' insulting, she too is in a state of denial. At the GBC meet called to discuss her work on Luis de Menezes Braganza I pointed out that the individual she was praising calling him a secularist and liberal and whatnot was only actually asking for the old privileges that the rich, and that meant the mainly upper caste Bamons and Chardos in those days, and which had been revoked by Salazar's Acto Colonial be brought back.

Why, even the choice of studying LMB reveals something for even though the word Chardo is never mentioned in the book, if one looks at the silences then one will ask why LMB, why not Caetano Vitorino de Faria or a Peres de Silva or a Costa.

More pertinently why does nobody wish to research into the oppression and humiliation that several castes had to suffer from their upper caste overlords?

Merely taking crude potshots at me because you find it politically incorrect to trumpet your own origins openly is not going to fool anybody jc.

Augusto

[Mervyn Maciel]

Hi Breaz,

That was a wonderful tribute to your Matata books from an American ex-Kenya lass

Nice that she remembers the hot roasted nuts(no pun intended) that came

to her from the hands of a young Goan..

Makes all the hard work of writing worthwhile.

Cheers.

Mervyn

[augusto pinto]

The horse is alive and well and kicking in India, but yeah Braz, let's change the subject in deference to you - to race.

What struck me about More Matata is the absence of any strong reaction from family or the Goan community to the Lando - Saboti romance.

If I know even a mite about this community, I'd say there would have been a hell of a tempest raging.

Why did you edit out all the fun? Or have you left the Matata for Part 3?
Augusto

[Ben Antao]

Hi folks

 

Allow me to enter this discussion and say why I love Augusto’s mind, both conscious and unconscious.

 

Augusto: Caste is definitely not a gender :) But is it not akin to race? You are entering almost innocently into a long standing controversy, where the Indian Govt has been trying its level best to proclaim that being casteist does not mean being racist as many many NGOs in India have been asserting.

 

Those of us who live in the West may not have to deal with caste, but encounter racism certainly. But if I’d lived in Goa I would have to deal with caste

every day, keep my mouth shut or ignore the slings and arrows of social polices that torment my fellow human beings. Augusto, in his own way, raises the

social awareness of those who would discuss books and their authors. You cannot understand a Goan without knowing his caste or where he comes from.

 

Augusto: Yes the nature of hegemony is such that one never does know sometimes which side one is on. I may be critical about capitalism, but without even realizing that I have a bank account, one of the cornerstones of capitalism. So isn't there a contradiction there? Of course there is but then what is to be done?

 

Even when I participate in a capitalist system, I have a right to criticise what I perceive to be the wrongs. So Augusto is right to express his views.

 

Augusto: Yeah, I agree. It is difficult to understand the compromises that we make when we are in the throes of hegemonic control. But nevertheless compromises, whether conscious or unconscious, were made and should be pointed out when we are analyzing their work.

 

And you’re correct, Augusto, to point out the compromises and those who compromise should accept the criticism as part of living in a civilised society.

 

Augusto: Thank you for your free advice, Selma, which like most unsolicited advice I will duly ignore. One of the privileges of being upper caste is that you believe that you are casteless or that you don't believe in caste. The lower down the caste ladder you are, you don't need any reminding. So...

Right again, Augusto. The upper caste, if also well off and educated in Goa, can always pretend to be otherwise because they have everything to gain as a result.

 

The above is my contribution to the debate. Ignoring the presence of caste in Goa or racism in the West is not the option for artists and writers, in my view.

 

Regards

Ben

 

From: augusto pinto

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 11:32 AM

To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [Bulk] Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Discussion on books

 

Dear Selma,

Thanks for your very interesting intervention. For my response read inline:

Selma: On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 12:51 PM, 'Selma Cardoso' via The Goa Book Club <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Caste is not a gender nor a race so wherever unnecessary it should not be used as a location of identity.

 

 

Selma:The term 'privilege' as we know it today started with 'white privilege' and pertains to, not direct privilege but the myriad of invisible advantages one attains just from being white. Activists then translated that premise to caste privilege, rightly so.

 

Augusto: Agreed.

Selma: However LMB would have been unacquainted with this concept. He would have unaware that his mere location accorded him privilege not just his acting on caste. So in protesting against the Acto Colonial he would have unaware that it was mainly the Metropolitan Portuguese-turned-out-Goan that benefitted.

 

Selma: To the ideologically driven men of his time, the Acto Colonial was an affront, a step back into the drudgery of a colonial existence. Their fight to regain a shred of dignity should not be minimised because they didn't address the question of caste. Which brings me to the next point.

 

 

Selma: It is another concept rather unwisely borrowed from young Western academics, that of an integrated revolt. This concept sprung up from the fight for gay rights which many argue is basically a fight for the privileges of upper-class white men. That it is not inclusive of other ethnicities nor economies. This concept has also, but not as successfully been borrowed in India.

 

Augusto: Your argument and to be honest isn't clear and so are your theoretical sources.

 

Selma: The problem I have with this concept is that rebellions and revolutions are driven by those who have agency. If upper-class, white men have agency to bring about change and that change can ultimately benefit society at large, then why should there be a relentless nit-picking? The suffragettes is a good example of a movement led by privileged white woman that changed the lives of everyone.

 

OK. So? If those with agency are helpful they should be praised, but why should those with agency who are not helpful not be criticized?

LMB was a contemporary, indeed cousin of Tristao B. Cunha. But compared to the revolutionary T B Cunha, LMB was an arch conservative. Sushila told me that TBC actually gave away his lands to his mundkars - and this, long before the Mundkar Act was passed. This is real daring action.

 

Selma: This I suppose is Augusto's point. That LMB was not inclusive and that somehow he should have consulted with other factions before becoming a spokesperson. The fact is such wide consultation and inclusion exists only in the halls of academia. Real life is different.

 

Augusto: Yeah, Selma, what you say is true. All talk now about those dead and gone is academic, but then there are those like Tristao de Braganza Cunha who didn't just talk but acted on his convictions.

 

Selma: Lastly why don't people write about the oppressed?  Well, a lot has already been written about caste oppression. Others will add to it. Not every author has to address it. But why do so many writers find it difficult to undertake subaltern studies? It's because it cannot be done through archival research. The poor and the disenfranchised didn't leave behind letters, long-winded memoirs and memos. Subaltern studies take intensive field work which has to be funded. So you see dear Augusto, choices may be shaped by more than a subconscious desire to align with your own type.

 

Augusto: OK agreed. So we must wait for some well funded foreign scholar to teach us our history. Ho hum.

Selma: Lastly, I do wish there wasn't this constant reference to people' caste. I don't see how it addresses the caste issue when you inform us of other people's 'upper-caste origins' and in some subtle way elude to their superiority because of it. (I know you don't mean to but you do anyway. For why else would you only call on the bamons and chardos on the list and never call out the sudhirs and gauddas. Because even in today's Goa the latter is a by-word for the underprivileged and the lesser mortal.) Caste is the most irrelevant point of reference in the 21st century. It points to neither your education nor your economic status nor your character nor your health. So unless necessary, do avoid using it as a location of identity.

 

Cheers!

Augusto

 

[Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا‎]

On 27 May 2015 at 12:51, 'Selma Cardoso' via The Goa Book Club <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Caste is not a gender nor a race so wherever unnecessary it should not be used as a location of identity.

Caste is not race?

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC311057/

FN

--

P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter: @fn Facebook: fredericknoronha

Goa,1556 Shared Content at archive.org https://archive.org/details/goa1556

[Cliff Pereira]

HISTORICAL GEOGRAPHERS INPUT
Thank you for sharing this Rico.
I had the opportunity of meeting with Cavelli-Sforza at the Royal Geographical Society when he produced the Atlas of genetic variation some years ago.
some of the things that is absent from this web link and that are important to Goa and Goans are that;
1) The number of people involved in these studies is miniscule considering the huge population of the Indian Sub-continent.
2) Borders (international, national, provincial, and taluka) often bear little semblance to the genetic map, unless there are physical barriers involved.
3) There is no "clear fit" between language and genes, though there are approximate fits (See The Language of the Genes. By Steve Jones . 1993)
4) Goa stands at a linguistic confluence between the Indo-European north and the Dravidian South.
5) Goa is backed by a mountain range (i.e. a physical barrier)
6) Goa has a long history of contact with the Western Asia (i.e. The Middle East) and Eastern Africa.
7) There have been some genetic studies done on Goans in Goa and (more so) on the diaspora. However the studies have focused on certain villages and their diaspora descendants, and on only one taluka. This hardly represents Goa in its entirety.
8) A word of warning. The Indian government has placed a blanket stop on foreign companies doing any genetic work in India (with some good reason) and so if you do have a genetic test with one of the big organisations (e.g. Ancestry.com or National Geographical, etc.) there is a lack of "genetic pool" data for the sub-continent that can be used in a way that African Americans or Europeans do, to tie your genes to a specific area adequately.
 
The facts is that Goa is an amalgam of genes from different parts of the world, that represent a rich history of genetic contact (through trade, forced and free migration, and Arab, Asian and European colonialism).  

For the record I have had my genetic affiliation tested, and I am discussion with several of the genetic study groups and I work extensively in an academic capacity with ancestry.com and have done so for over 15years.
 
Clifford Pereira
Vancouver. BC. Canada 

---

From: frederic...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 22:27:43 +0530

Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Discussion on books

To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

[Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا‎]

Two more contributes to the caste-is/is not-race debate:

Ambrose Pinto: Is caste race?
http://www.jstor.org/stable/4410910?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Dipankar Gupta: Caste, race, politics
http://www.india-seminar.com/2001/508/508%20dipankar%20gupta.htm

[Selma C]

Frederick, the second paper you have provided argues my point that caste is not the same as race. I concede to augusto's support that caste discrimination is akin to race discrimination and where possible should be legislated as such. A battle that Dalits in the UK have just lost thanks to a Tory win who will repeal all legislation relating to caste, because they want the caste Hindu vote.

My objection is to caste being frivolously used as a location of identity. What for instance is a 'Chardo academic'? Is she or he different from a sudhir academic? Does he bring something by way of an identity to the world of academia? Can a non-Chardo evaluate LBM and still be an insider, because he's studied his subject well or for any number of reasons? Just wondering.

Best,

Selma

Sent from my iPad

--

[Jose]

One ......more recent :

Their finding, recently published in the American Journal of Human Genetics, made waves when it was revealed that genetic mixing ended 1,900 years ago, around the same time the caste system was being codified in religious texts. The Manusmriti, which forbade intermarriage between castes, was written in the same period, give or take a century.

http://world.time.com/2013/08/27/what-dna-testing-reveals-about-indias-caste-system/

jc

[Jeanne Hromnik]

I have a soft copy of a thesis by Donna Nelson titled Caste and Club: A study of Goan politics in Nairobi. I don't know whether it bears on this discussion as I must admit I've been slow to read both, but I'm happy to share the thesis with anyone who wants to read it. I don't think the author would mind. I met her only briefly in Nairobi in 1971, when she must have been working on this very subject. She and her then husband (a Goan) were well known to my parents.

I was sent the thesis by someone in Australia. It occurs to me he might be interested in this discussion. 

[Tensing Rodrigues]

Do you believe that caste system / varna is really  occupation based as Manu would have it ? Or is it ethnic/racial ?

 

[augusto pinto]

Dear Jeanne

This sounds very interesting, Do share it on GBC or if you can't send me a copy to my personal mail. Thanks.

Augusto

[augusto pinto]

Dear Tensing,

The Indian Govt. would love people to discuss just the esoteric issues that you bring up, the most sophisticated of which can be seen in Dipankar Gupta's essay in Seminar.

The NGOs which support the view that caste and race are similar in their effects, in their oppressiveness - are saying that such viewpoints (which lead people away from the human rights issues) allow for deflecting issues away from the basic rights violations of the oppressed, and keep attention away from the impoverished.

These Dalit viewpoints simply say: We are the Shit of the Earth: Please raise us at least above the Toilet Bowl if we are lucky enough to have one, and the open polluting outdoors where we defecate most of the time.

Best

Augusto

[Braz MENEZES]

Hi Jeanne,

Could you please send me a copy too? I know both Donna Nelson and her Ex. At the time (70s) she wanted to keep its content under wraps, as she still had to submit it to her University, but she also realized that as a group, our community (or at least our parents generation) had lived their lives with each subgroup comfortably segregated in their various clubs, and there was no need to start the matata (trouble) now. Many who had talked to Donna openly had been assured of confidentiality. Our generation had already put that behind us, and had grown sharing the same schools, etc, and many were falling in love and marrying across caste boundaries (albeit with some distress to immediate families). A bigger issue looming in post Independant Kenya was the threat of children marrying across racial boundaries (white was ok, black was a no no). That was 45 years ago, and certainly the world and Goan views (outside Goa have changed).

My question to readers of GBC: is Goa becoming more caste-conscious now 50 years after the departure of the Portuguese, as a result of the demographic changes that have taken place?

There have been recent global surveys that show India as the most racist country, and try and explain it away as a consequence of its ingrained caste structure?

Sent from my iPad

[Tensing Rodrigues]

​Augusto, 

I have not said this is important or that is less important. ​I have only asked for an opinion. If everybody thinks that is politically wrong, so be it. I do not mind a no. But should I not ask ? Do not attribute motives. 

[augusto pinto]

Hi Tensing

Relax. Why lose your temper?

I'm not attributing motives or anything of the sort; I just pointed out what I felt was a characteristic of a certain kind of discourse. You may have a different point of view Fine  If you feel that the thoughts that you're trying to promote are important in themselves just go on and say so giving your reasons. There is enough space for all kinds of ideas.

The heat in Goa isn't so bad: it's the humidity that's creating the problem.

Best

Augusto

[A.A. Fernandes]

Just further to that FYI http://researchkenya.or.ke/node/22256

--

A.ANTHONY(Tony) FERNANDES about.me/rockrambler

SKYPE:a.anthony.fernandes 

[Ben Antao]

Augusto: The heat in Goa isn't so bad: it's the humidity that's creating the problem.

 

Are you sure it’s the humidity and not humanity that’s the problem?

Just joshing, my friend!

 

Ben

 

From: augusto pinto

Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 8:09 AM

To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [Bulk] Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Discussion on books

[Jose]

1: Tensing: " Do you believe that caste system / varna is really  occupation based as Manu would have it ? Or is it ethnic/racial ?"

jc: If one accepts that the Sanskrit word for Colour, Dye, Pigment is Varna, then the above question is self-answered. For further explanation of How Race can determine Occupation, especially Denial of certain Occupations for certain races or ethnic groups, please vide Apartheid in Südafrika

Additional reading: http://www.colaco.net/1/caste.htm

2: Augusto re Acto Colonial: "the old privileges that the rich, and that meant the mainly upper caste Bamons and Chardos in those days, and which had been revoked by Salazar's Acto Colonial"

jc: At the very best, the above from Augusto is a negligent Misrepresentation of the Intent, Effect and the Acto Colonial itself. 

Sushila Mendes is spot on. Not everything Augusto does on GBC can be explained away by invoking the vagaries of Territorial Insanity. Augusto surely lives on a Bamon - Chardo -Sudhir -gaonkar - morador diet.

3: Augusto: " Sushila the Chardo academic "

 Alright then !!!!!.....Please Allow me to do the honours. Augusto surely wishes us to note that he is Augusto the Bamon Modrador of GBC where the Bamon Modrador has ALL the Rights (to do as they please) and Kunbi Mundcars like Kunbi Zuzebab have ALL the Duties (esp to Keep in Line)

BTW: Whatever happened to the alleged Caste 'discrimination' case at Goa University that Augusto was so Aghast about ? Did he organise or cause to organise a Judicial Review of that case, OR was GAS the only interest with that Blah Blah on GBC ? 

jc

A relatively busy day for me in NY

So.....Until later....

[augusto pinto]

I've been browsing through Caste and Club: A study of Goan politics in Nairobi. It's quite a fascinating look at the Goans of Kenya and particularly Nairobi; while at the same time speaking about the situation back in Goa. Thanks for sharing the thesis Jeanne.

Given that the Goan presence has gone down considerably since the 60's it would be quite interesting if someone were to follow up on this study and find out what happened to those Goans who dispersed to UK Canada and so forth although one can fairly easily guess the results by and large, as to preserve the caste system as happened in Nairobi there needs to be a sufficiently large population of Goans living together. One thing that surprised me is the revelation that the Gaudde population there was both better educated and had a higher status than in Goa.

The author seems to be quite objective and also has access to Goan clubs being married to one.

Augusto

[Selma Cardoso]

Augusto,

When I read the thesis some years back (which is in 16 parts) I too was very puzzled by the reference to the Gaudde population. I checked with Afrikanders and they said no way was there a Gaudde population in Kenya. I don't know who Nelson was referring to when she spoke of the Gaudde. Anecdotal evidence too suggests that the Gaudde community did not migrate until well into the 20th century.  Perhaps I am assuming Gauda and Gaudde to be synonymous when in fact they are not. So if someone can solve the puzzle of the Gaudde in Africa that would be helpful.

Best,

selma
 

---

From: augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com>
To: "goa-bo...@googlegroups.com" <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Friday, 29 May 2015, 8:24
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Discussion on books

[augusto pinto]

Hmm... Maybe her informant misled her.

Maybe the informant was one of her husband's relatives - in which case some inconsistencies in the otherwise fascinating thesis (for me especially for it tells me much about my caste's Others) will now be explained.

Still I reiterate it is a very interesting thesis which if edited well can be up there among the Carvalhos and Frenzes compared to which I find it more interesting.
Augusto

[augusto pinto]

My number is 9881126350.
Augusto

On 29-May-2015 2:10 pm, "augusto pinto" <pint...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is anybody interested in coming?

Alito who wanted to come unfortunately has an engagement that he can't cancel.

I was told it would be an occasion where one would not only come to see but also come to be seen.

I love to be a among the page 3 set but I can't bear to drive to Margao and back alone.

So if anybody is interested give me a tinkle soon or I may just decide to have a long nap...
Augusto

On 26-May-2015 1:42 pm, "'Sushila' via The Goa Book Club" <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Dear members of Goa Book Club,
Gomant Vidya Niketan,Margao will host   a book discussion on 29th May 2015 at 6 p.m as a part of its monthly Aswad programme.
Dr.Sushila Sawant Mendes will speak on Dr.Maria Aurora Couto's books:Goa- A daughters story and Filomena's journey.There will also be an interactive session between the author and the audience thereafter.
Do come.

---

From: 'Selma C' via The Goa Book Club
Sent: ‎26-‎05-‎2015 00:10
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Using movie type trailers to sell books

The problem Augusto is Facebook. We are all having a super time hanging out together on FB. Why don't you join us? As they say at Katlick parties in Goa, we are missing you only man.

Best,

Selma

Sent from my iPad

On 25 May 2015, at 18:35, augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cecil, instead of marking your presence on GBC with these no-doubt-interesting-but-ultimately-time-pass- forwards, why don't you more often write something that expresses your own views?

I somehow get the feeling that the unpleasant GW episode has knackered you for good. I may be wrong, and if this is the case, please prove me wrong, for I would love to hear the voice or the real Cecil, the Cecil who once wrote such searing middles for Gomantak Times.

Augusto

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 10:20 PM, Cecil Pinto <cecil...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://scroll.in/article/727941/amishs-scion-of-ikshvaku-when-we-live-blogged-the-trailer

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[augusto pinto]

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

These are two separate communities, often mixed up due to their names. A quote from Reyna Sequeira's book As Dear As Salt (Goa,1556-Golden Heart 2013 Rs 400 hb). Obviously, at least some of the mansions of Arpora were built with Africander money. Sometimes different spellings are used for the communities, in different parts of Goa, and there seems to be a lack of uniformity over this:

In Goa’s northernmost taluka of Pernem, as mentioned earlier, those engaged in salt making are known as Mithgaudas. In Maharashtra, they are known as Mithagavada.

The name of the community has been derived from their occupation, as is the case elsewhere. According to the Mithgaudas, Gaude means villager; therefore, the village people who are salt makers by tradition are called Mithgauda. They are mostly concentrated along the coastal belt of Maharashtra and Goa. In Goa, the Mithgaudas consider themselves as being high up in the caste hierarchy. They try to mark their difference from the other Gauddas of Goa by pointing out that they are different from the Dhetle Gaude. The latter refers to a community of women who traditionally did not wear a blouse with their sari, but tied their sari over their chest with a dhetle (knot), hence the community name....

The Gauddis of Arpora

The Gauddis are distinctly different and should not be confused with the Gauddas of Goa. were the only jati out of the five jatis studied in three villages who were landlords as well as involved in the extraction of salt. This community is small in numbers. Some Gauddis work abroad, others were old or unmarried. Some did not want to be interviewed. Information about the landlords could be obtained from very few respondents only.

The Mithgaudas who were converted, especially in Bardez taluka, had family members who were priests, lawyers, journalists, doctors, etc. It is not known when the converted Mithgaudas began to be referred to as Gauddis. When one particular respondent was asked about caste, he said they belonged to the Chardo caste which corresponds to the Kshatriya caste in the Hindu varna hierarchy.

As lifestyles have changed in Goa, traditional salt producers have found newer means of livelihood, a trend which has also adversely affected a number of people in the profession today.

According to one respondent, the Gauddis are the landowning caste in Arpora. Some salt pans in Arpora are contracted out to people from Agarvaddo, Pernem. Many Christian families from Arpora migrated to places like Karachi (now in Pakistan), Nairobi (Kenya), other parts of Africa, and elsewhere. Following the migration, some Christian homes were taken over by Hindus. However some Christian families of Arpora still own palatial residences, the kind of which there are only a few in Bardez taluka.

P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter: @fn Facebook: fredericknoronha

Goa,1556 Shared Content at https://archive.org/details/goa1556

[augusto pinto]

Ah yes FN!

It is the Mitth- Gaudde that is  being spoken about here. So whatever is written is correct except that the terminology isn't.
Augusto

I take

[saxtti viegas]

HI Jeanne

Could you please mail me a soft copy at sax...@gmail.com

Thank you

All best

Savia

--

Savia Viegas

http://www.saviaviegas.in/

374, Quinta De Sao Joaquim,

Xetmalem, Carmona,

Salcete Goa 403717

Res-School 0832 2744511

[Tensing Rodrigues]

Frederick, the passage you have quoted seems to only mean that some 'gauddes' were landowning, well-off, educated, prone to go overseas, etc. But I have still not got the difference between the mitt-gauddes and gauddes in terms of their ethnic origin - how where the former a part of the chaturvarna and the latter not. The passage says mith-gaudde are charddi/kshyatrias; do they intermarry with the other chardes ? 

[Selma Cardoso]

Frederick, because once as you and I were passing through Salvador Mundo and those adjoining areas, you had mentioned to me that Murumbi's father was possibly of the mith-gaudda community, I wondered if Nelson was in fact referring to the Mith-gauda. But before Augusto enthusiastically concludes that this is indeed the case, consider this:

How many Afrikanders would have identified themselves as mith-gaudda? (As Reyna suggests, they would have more likely identified themselves as chardos).

Would there have been a large enough sampling population for Nelson to have drawn conclusions about this?

And why didn't she identify them as mith-gauda and only used the word gauda.

How many Afrikanders are familiar with the term mith-gauda?

It is not possible for us to be conclusively sure that she was referring to the mith-gauda.

Best,

selma
 

---

From: Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا <frederic...@gmail.com>
To: The Third Thursday Goa Book Club <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 May 2015, 10:05

[Teotonio R. de Souza]

Frederick

Please check Medieval Goa about Mittgavdde. 

Some were owners of oxen caravans that crossed the ghats for trade in the hinterland, before and during the early Portuguese rule.

Teotonio

http://orcid.org/0000-0002-9397-1433

http://www.thegoan.net/Goa/Lets-Talk/The-idea-of-Goa-more-India-more-world-and-more-Goa/06979.html
		Teotonio R. de Souza about.me/teodesouza

tweets @ramkamat  

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

They're two separate jatis, with similar names, hence often confused. One set are prominent land-owners and stay in (sometime) palatial bungalows. The others are considered to be among the aboriginals of Goa, and still find it tough to get access to education and "development".

The landowners are among the 'twice-born' in the Chaturvarna.

I don't believe caste should any longer be the basis for discrimination and bias or bigotry, feelings of superiority or inferiority. But without doubt it's going to remain an important determinant in understanding South Asian society for some time to come.

FN

[augusto pinto]

Still I think that Donna Nelson got things all mixed up as she quotes Saldanha's (1955) figures of Gaudde as being 23% in Goa; and 4.6% in Nairobi.

Augusto

[augusto pinto]

Hi Sushila

I'm sure the occasion was fabulous and I wish I was there. I didn't come because I can't travel alone. Please send us at GBC a report about what happened.

All the best

Augusto

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: 'Sushila' via The Goa Book Club <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tue, May 26, 2015 at 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: [GOABOOKCLUB] Discussion on books
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Dear members of Goa Book Club,
Gomant Vidya Niketan,Margao will host   a book discussion on 29th May 2015 at 6 p.m as a part of its monthly Aswad programme.
Dr.Sushila Sawant Mendes will speak on Dr.Maria Aurora Couto's books:Goa- A daughters story and Filomena's journey.There will also be an interactive session between the author and the audience thereafter.
Do come.

---

From: 'Selma C' via The Goa Book Club
Sent: ‎26-‎05-‎2015 00:10
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Using movie type trailers to sell books

The problem Augusto is Facebook. We are all having a super time hanging out together on FB. Why don't you join us? As they say at Katlick parties in Goa, we are missing you only man.

Best,

Selma

Sent from my iPad

On 25 May 2015, at 18:35, augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cecil, instead of marking your presence on GBC with these no-doubt-interesting-but-ultimately-time-pass- forwards, why don't you more often write something that expresses your own views?

I somehow get the feeling that the unpleasant GW episode has knackered you for good. I may be wrong, and if this is the case, please prove me wrong, for I would love to hear the voice or the real Cecil, the Cecil who once wrote such searing middles for Gomantak Times.

Augusto

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 10:20 PM, Cecil Pinto <cecil...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://scroll.in/article/727941/amishs-scion-of-ikshvaku-when-we-live-blogged-the-trailer

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[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

On 29 May 2015 at 23:29, augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm sure the occasion was fabulous and I wish I was there. I didn't come because I can't travel alone. Please send us at GBC a report about what happened.

Gusto, I think you just chickened out, after all the verbal skirmishing you indulged in online :-)

I have a friend who can't eat food alone (a journalist at that, he would often wait for me). Children dislike being born alone and arrive crying; the elderly don't like to depart alone. But not being able to travel alone?

That's an original one!

FN

[Jeanne Hromnik]

I also don't like to travel alone. It's a Moidekar thing ... caste regardless.

Xanni

--

[augusto pinto]

Actually I used to travel to Cuncolim and back from Moira circa 1989-1995 which meant (before I purchased a Yamaha especially) sometimes having to go by bus from Moira to Mapusa; then from Mapusa to Malim; then cross the ferry to Panjim; then a bus to Agassaim; cross the ferry to Cortalim (when the bridge was being fixed); take the bus to Margao; then take bus to Cuncolim and back.

But that was fun in a way for there was company all the way along. Going in a car, lipstick red Swift nonetheless, is quite different.

But let's leave that nostalgia aside: Idiot - I think you should have had the decency to reveal that I had pleaded with you to come but you refused for spurious reasons.

Augusto

[sushila mendes]

Dear Augusto,

We should not wait for our grandchildren to do away with the caste system. We need to be both assertive and aggressive in condeming it.I firmly believe that birth does not determine anybody,It is hard work and making a positive contribution that is  much more important.I care a damm to which caste you belong to Augusto.The words that you choose,the accusations you make sometimes worry me!

I drove to Dempo college meeting alone from Margao.The cause of the meet was important for me.I thought that Professors of English would be interested in such a discussion,not only to be "seen" or to be on "page 3".I am happy that members of the Goa Book Club were present and I want to use this forum to thank them all.

Augusto please learn to drive alone,you do that so many time times with your "words", a car should be  much more easy if you try.

Best wishes,

Sushila

[augusto pinto]

Dear Sushila who wrote:

On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 11:29 AM, 'sushila mendes' via The Goa Book Club <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Dear Augusto,

We should not wait for our grandchildren to do away with the caste system. We need to be both assertive and aggressive in condeming it.I firmly believe that birth does not determine anybody,It is hard work and making a positive contribution that is  much more important.

 

I agree that birth should not determine anybody and hard work etc is important, but see for instance how the University itself is dodging its constitutional responsibility to remove the weight of centuries of disadvantage that birth has placed on some by denying them Reservations.

  

I care a damm to which caste you belong to Augusto.The words that you choose,the accusations you make sometimes worry me!

That's OK as long as the point gets made.

 

I drove to Dempo college meeting alone from Margao. 

The cause of the meet was important for me.

Very Good of you! 

I thought that Professors of English would be interested in such a discussion,not only to be "seen" or to be on "page 3".

I agree. I did try to sell the idea to them but maybe they were on holiday with their families or maybe they had better things to do than discuss how to improve English teaching and learning.

 

I am happy that members of the Goa Book Club were present and I want to use this forum to thank them all.

 

And so do I. 

Augusto please learn to drive alone,you do that so many time times with your "words", a car should be  much more easy if you try.

I hang my head in shame as I say,"I'll try"

By the way how was the talk? Did you record it? Or could you share the transcript?

Cheers

Augusto

On Friday, 29 May 2015 11:35 PM, Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا <frederic...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 29 May 2015 at 23:29, augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm sure the occasion was fabulous and I wish I was there. I didn't come because I can't travel alone. Please send us at GBC a report about what happened.

Gusto, I think you just chickened out, after all the verbal skirmishing you indulged in online :-)

I have a friend who can't eat food alone (a journalist at that, he would often wait for me). Children dislike being born alone and arrive crying; the elderly don't like to depart alone. But not being able to travel alone?

That's an original one!

FN

--

P +91-832-2409490 M 9822122436 Twitter: @fn Facebook: fredericknoronha

Goa,1556 Shared Content at https://archive.org/details/goa1556

[Tensing Rodrigues]

 University itself is dodging its constitutional responsibility to remove the weight of centuries of disadvantage that birth has placed on some by denying them Reservations.

Reservations ? We have had reservations for the last 18 years, but to no effect. Reservations do not benefit the under-privileged, they only keep them where they are longer. Reservations are only a tool of the ruling elite to keep the hierarchy intact. And a device of the politicians to pamper their vote banks. Instead support the under-privileged to rise on their own strength. Or to use Augusto's words 'support the shit to rise to the mouth of the toilet bowl', do not scoop out the shit and drop it into the bowl.

I do not know which University you are referring to. If you are referring to the recent news about IIT Madras, it is unfortunate that Smriti Irani  and the Congress (to their own political gain) have placed the issue in a totally alien context. Tamil conflict is not a caste conflict - unfortunately our glasses are so sanskritised that we see everything in the framework of chaturvarna. The conflict in the IIT, as in the entire Tamil land, is a racial conflict. I know Augusto will call that esoteric. But you got to live there to understand the ground reality.  Those of us who live in the Aryavarta do not realise the truth down south. We have thrown into the dustbin of history the Tamil secessionary politics of yester years and the more recent LTTE conflict in Sri Lanka as mere events. The tectonic plates are brushing against each other, pressure is building up, when will the next earthquake occur ? Sitting securely in our Sanskrit perches, we are busy sorting out our caste quarrels, like the fiddler on the roof.

[Alito Siqueira]

Dear all,

If this is not the appropriate forum to contest ideas on reservation my apologies.

" We need to question the equation of reservation with the redressal of caste inequality not because reservation is no longer needed but because it is no longer enough" Satish Deshpande in  The Hindu: (http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/reservations-are-not-just-about-quotas/article7036459.ece). 

The short article is a good read.

Permit me also to use this occasion to inform that the Goa University will shortly announce a 15 hour course titled "Caste Now" to be coordinated by Satish Deshpande and with kewy contemporary thinkers on caste as visiting faculty. The course will open to the public.

Regards,

alito

[augusto pinto]

Dear Tensing,

I didn't look too carefully at this letter when it was posted, but now that I have I'm pretty shocked that you've quoted me as saying the words 'support the shit to rise to the mouth of the toilet bowl'.

I've never said this or written this anywhere to the best of my recollection, and certainly I'd never make it in the context of Reservations. Please correct this by withdrawing this statement, unless you can show me where I am alleged to have stated this.

As regards the University Reservations issue you appear to have no clue as to what is the problem. If you wish to be enlightened about it, I would be glad to inform you, but given the tenor of your letter I somewhat doubt that.

Be your views be what they may be, one thing I will say here: Reservations are mandated by the Constitution, and howsoever much you may dislike them, by denying Reservations to those whom they are applicable, you are breaking the law.

Augusto Pinto

[Tensing Rodrigues]

Mea culpa. Pardon me for the gaffe. I withdraw all my statements. But my purpose has been served : the group has been instigated enough to start a discussion on reservations and caste. Now let the better informed and better thinking persons take over.

[Tensing Rodrigues]

My apology stands. And be sure I shall not intervene in the discussion on caste/reservations any more. But just to set the record right, here is the response by Augusto to my innocuous question.

My question :

Do you believe that caste system / varna is really  occupation based as Manu would have it ? Or is it ethnic/racial ?

Augusto's  response :

Dear Tensing,

The Indian Govt. would love people to discuss just the esoteric issues that you bring up, the most sophisticated of which can be seen in Dipankar Gupta's essay in Seminar.

The NGOs which support the view that caste and race are similar in their effects, in their oppressiveness - are saying that such viewpoints (which lead people away from the human rights issues) allow for deflecting issues away from the basic rights violations of the oppressed, and keep attention away from the impoverished. 

These Dalit viewpoints simply say: We are the Shit of the Earth: Please raise us at least above the Toilet Bowl if we are lucky enough to have one, and the open polluting outdoors where we defecate most of the time. 

Best

Augusto 

[augusto pinto]

Dear Tensing read inline:
On 31-May-2015 1:48 pm, "Tensing Rodrigues" <ten...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My apology stands.

And it is accepted.

And be sure I shall not intervene in the discussion on caste/reservations any more.

Why? As an Elder of the Community, you should exercise your duty to educate the newer generations. 

But just to set the record right, here is the response by Augusto to my innocuous question.
>
> My question :
>
> Do you believe that caste system / varna is really  occupation based as Manu would have it ? Or is it ethnic/racial ?
>
> Augusto's  response :
>
> Dear Tensing,
>
> The Indian Govt. would love people to discuss just the esoteric issues that you bring up, the most sophisticated of which can be seen in Dipankar Gupta's essay in Seminar.
>
> The NGOs which support the view that caste and race are similar in their effects, in their oppressiveness - are saying that such viewpoints (which lead people away from the human rights issues) allow for deflecting issues away from the basic rights violations of the oppressed, and keep attention away from the impoverished. 
>
> These Dalit viewpoints simply say: We are the Shit of the Earth: Please raise us at least above the Toilet Bowl if we are lucky enough to have one, and the open polluting outdoors where we defecate most of the time. 

OK... OK... So I did say part of that did I? Sorry man!

Still it was bad of you to take my words totally out of context. Anyway let's go ahead.

To reiterate I most graciously accept your apology and hope you will engage your mind on this most controversial of threads on GBC.

Augusto

G

[Teotonio R de Souza]

Tensing

Are you quoting dalits or Augusto?

Quotes have special marks. Without such quotation marks it needs to be assumed that its authorship (be it a distorted paraphrase) belongs to the writer.

TRS

Enviado do meu iPhone

[Teotonio R. de Souza]

Dear jc

I cannot read your response in GBC.

Where is the «Discussion on books» thread on GBC? Is it already under censor's scissors and made invisible?

I will to send my postings to the owner of GBC and others whom it matters by bcc.

TRS

On 31 May 2015 at 10:59, Jose <col...@gmail.com> wrote:

On May 31, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Teotonio R de Souza  wrote to Tensing:
"it is Augusto who should say it to the Dalits whom he is paraphrasing to grind his own ideological axe, or let us have the text where that expression was used by Dalits"

Dear TRS,

PN:  Our Modrador, Xri Emperor Augustus I , does NOT apologise.
PS: You expect a Bamon to say sorry to a Dalit ? Manubab does NOT allow that !

jc

[Jose]

[Teotonio R de Souza]

Tensing

Before you say meã culpa, it os Augusto who should say it to the Dalits whom he is paraphrasing to grind his own ideological axe, or let us have the text where that expression was used by Dalits. Otherwise this is not a way for a model teacher to behave.

TRS

Enviado do meu iPhone

[Jose]

Dear TRS,

Owner's Liability ? Perhaps

Salazar Portoh Pavlo ? Surely

Modrador Pertubado ? Absolutely

Chances that this post will appear on GBC ? Zero

BTW: What was the Caste of the 8000 Jain Monks who were IMPALED in Madurai?

jc

bcc: many

[augusto pinto]

No jc, rather than censor your abuse, I think our readers deserve to know the filth you love to wallow in.

In Konkani there is a saying: Jevta tea pannar hagchem nhoi. Dr Jose Colaco gets a sadistic thrill by abusing this maxim and abusing this forum.

Unless readers of GBC stand up and tells this ignorant bully who has not read a book for the last several eons, where he gets off, I'm afraid we're going to have to just post his excreta, and the democracy that GBC is, will have to consequently have to suffer his crap ad infinitum.

Augusto

[Adolph de Sousa]

Hello Braz, Jeanne and others

I have just signed up to this Book club and when Jeanne refers to a soft copy of Donna Nelson's Thesis being sent to her by an Australian, she is referring to me. I too happened to know Donna and her ex-husband whilst I was working at the University of Nairobi and she gave me a hard copy of her thesis. As a new person to Kenya at the time and in the position of Assistant Registrar I was not one of her interview sample.

I am not able to enter the debate about Gauddes etc in her thesis. I have no doubt that her interview subjects would have identified themselves as such. She could not have made it up. It is also a name I am not familiar with - as much a proud Goan I am. I am a Diaspora Goan from Zanzibar who traces my African roots to early 1800s to Sofala (later Lourence Marques) and now Maputo.

Someone in this Club suggested that it would be interesting to follow up the subjects in Donna's sample as they migrated to the UK and North America. But does not Selma's book and the one from Margret Frenz do that in a way? 

I am not interested only in the history - important as they are to shape our future. Other writers more competent to do that well.  Margret’s Frenz's book  has a chapter titled ‘Remembering East Africa’ in which she arrives at some conclusions about us, baby boomers, and generations X and Y and even the millennials. On an academic discourse she has been able to identify us, East African Goans, as subalterns – subaltern elites at that, who benefitted and helped the running of a colonial empire. In this she is contributing to the theories of Imperial history and her discipline. However she does go beyond Selma in coming to some conclusions about reminiscences and nostalgia. There is a very telling sentence “ Overseas Goan communities are in the process of dissolving or disappearing” (pp287). It is not her business to tell us what we should be doing. Nor does she stray to do that. She is making an observable comment.  In 1998 a Dr Cornel DaCosta (G O Digest, July-Sept 1998) posed the question” Is the Historic Goan Association in Terminal Decline?” 

I am more interested to know how members of the Book club believe is the future of Goans in the Diaspora

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 5:33:20 PM UTC+8, Braz wrote:

Hi Jeanne,

Could you please send me a copy too? I know both Donna Nelson and her Ex. At the time (70s) she wanted to keep its content under wraps, as she still had to submit it to her University, but she also realized that as a group, our community (or at least our parents generation) had lived their lives with each subgroup comfortably segregated in their various clubs, and there was no need to start the matata (trouble) now. Many who had talked to Donna openly had been assured of confidentiality. Our generation had already put that behind us, and had grown sharing the same schools, etc, and many were falling in love and marrying across caste boundaries (albeit with some distress to immediate families). A bigger issue looming in post Independant Kenya was the threat of children marrying across racial boundaries (white was ok, black was a no no). That was 45 years ago, and certainly the world and Goan views (outside Goa have changed).

My question to readers of GBC: is Goa becoming more caste-conscious now 50 years after the departure of the Portuguese, as a result of the demographic changes that have taken place?

There have been recent global surveys that show India as the most racist country, and try and explain it away as a consequence of its ingrained caste structure?

Sent from my iPad

On May 27, 2015, at 23:46, Jeanne Hromnik <jeanne...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a soft copy of a thesis by Donna Nelson titled Caste and Club: A study of Goan politics in Nairobi. I don't know whether it bears on this discussion as I must admit I've been slow to read both, but I'm happy to share the thesis with anyone who wants to read it. I don't think the author would mind. I met her only briefly in Nairobi in 1971, when she must have been working on this very subject. She and her then husband (a Goan) were well known to my parents.

I was sent the thesis by someone in Australia. It occurs to me he might be interested in this discussion. 

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 10:20 PM, Jose <col...@gmail.com> wrote:

One ......more recent :

Their finding, recently published in the American Journal of Human Genetics, made waves when it was revealed that genetic mixing ended 1,900 years ago, around the same time the caste system was being codified in religious texts. The Manusmriti, which forbade intermarriage between castes, was written in the same period, give or take a century.

http://world.time.com/2013/08/27/what-dna-testing-reveals-about-indias-caste-system/

jc

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[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

Just sharing something I wrote long back...

R O O T S :  U N U S U A L   S T O R I E S   F R O M   G O A

After coping with generations
of wander-lust, that often
snapped ties with their
roots, Goans from far
and near return with renewed
interest to trace back their origins....

By Frederick Noronha
====================
frederic...@gmail.com

Tom Fernandes is blond with typically Germanic light eyes. If
his accent and looks suggest he belongs to central Europe,
his surname sounds possibly Goan. It is. Infact, he's just
one of the many Goans scattered in distant lands due to one
of history's most under-studied diaspora that saw tens of
thousands from this small region get scattered far and wide
across the globe.

Today, many like Tom, in his early twenties, are returning
back to their home state... all in a quest to better
understand their identity, find their roots, and possibly
re-trace their ancestry. Speedy communications over the
Internet and closer international links is making all this
possible in today's global village.

In the bargain, many are digging up unusual stories about
past generations. Strange though it may seem, Goa could be
one of the best places in this part of the globe to belong to
if you're curious about your roots. Fairly well-kept colonial
records, the still-existing village 'gaunkari' system and the
rural networks of 'vangods' (extended clans) might make it
easy for you too to search for your roots.

How do you go about this? Let's ask those who did it recently...

Benild (Ben) J. Pires of Victoria, British Columbia in Canada
says: "I have been intrigued about discovering my roots since
the mid-1970s. My dad, Dr. Edward A. Pires, now 90, had then
retired and began work on the family tree.  He has always had
an interest in keeping in contact, through his annual
Christmas newsletter, with all our relatives he knew."

Pires explains that since his father did not know how to
type, he himself took on the task of putting together the
tree from the information he provided.

"This was in the era before computers and tree-maker
programs. (Today, computer software allows anyone to create a
family tree with much ease.) But his tree did not go high
enough.  I wanted to find out when the 'Pires' name began --
I presume there was a Hindu name before a Hindu family was
converted to Catholicism by the Portuguese in Goa and
received the Portuguese name of 'Pires'," as Ben J Pires puts
it.

From distant Canada, he wrote to relatives in Goa to find out
if there was someone interested in doing some genealogy
research. "I was willing to have it done for a fee, but there
were no takers," he rues.

In 1992, Pires himself took my parents to Goa -- they figured
it was probably their last opportunity to visit their
village, Nagoa, in Bardez. He took the opportunity to spend
three days at the archives in Panjim.

Recall now, he says: "I was truly amazed about the amount of
progress I made in such a brief time.  And I was surprised
that the archives staff allowed me to handle documents as far
back as the late 1700s... pages which were practically
crumbling in my hands.  I did need the help of a relative who
could read Portuguese to help me translate documents --
baptism certificates -- that were useful to me.  Perhaps I
had some measure of success because my dad's father and
grandfather were from Panjim."

Of course, Pires had certain facts to fall back on -- his
grandfather's details dating back to the 1880s, his
grandmum's name, the fact that they moved to Nagoa and built
a home, which was recently donated to nuns working there. Two
of his sisters are nuns in the order. He also knew his
great-grandfather's name and whom he had married.

He made some quick discoveries at the Archives, after
estimating that each generation is about 20 to 30 years
apart. Finally, he got down to Antonio Pires -- his great,
great, great, great grandfather, born in 1770. But after that
it was tough.  Says Pires: "I reached a blank after Antonio
Pires, because he must have moved from somewhere else,
because the archives did not have any birth records from the
Panjim area before that."

Today, he is infact searching for clues on how to go further.

Others are working on this too. Mumbai-based Valentine
D'Souza, originally from Donvaddo in Saligao, has been the
Consulting Editor of the 'Express Computer' magazine in the
past. He also published 'Living Computer' and was at the helm
of the 'Times Computing' of the Times of India group.

Says he: "I've barely started getting into this research and
so far have only been able to cover about three and a half
generations (mostly current). I just did some initial
groundwork in Goa and hope to come back again soon and delve
a little deeper by going to the archives department in
Panjim, based on advice received."

He suspects that its "going to be quite a difficult task" as
his paternal grandfather was born in Karachi and information
on his side of the family is sketchy. "I just don't know
where to start, but what I'm doing now is to try and muster
up as much concrete information as possible right here in
Bombay, before venturing into the archives," says he.

Some who are embarking on the search are those whom you might
not remotely connect with people linked to the great Goan
'hegira' -- the flight or exodus to more desirable places.

John Hancocks writes in from Canberra in Australia: "I too am
a de Mello(w) on my mother's side. I have traced our
ancestors to an Edouard de Mellow, he was married in 1873 but
I have no date of birth. I believe his father was an exiled
Portuguese going under the name of Francis Thomas de Mello
who fathered three children by a Goan woman before vanishing
in about 1843-4 to leave two boys with the Christian
Brothers."

Bitten by the 'roots' bug, Hancocks says he suspects the true
identity of Francis Thomas and even have a photo of his
'wife' but need much more information.

Hancocks and Dr. Ian De Mellow, the nephew of the famed late
broadcaster Melville De Mellow, have been researching
elements of the De Mello family in Goa. "We have reached a
seeming impasse," says Hancock.

Their problem is that there appear to be no records of any
sort relating to Francis Thomas, who they believe departed
for Paris in 1843-4 with his daughter but leaving the boys
with the Christian Brothers, possibly under the guardianship
of one Ivor Yates.

Giving a hint of the detail they've been through, Hancocks
says: "We have no date of birth for Edward although we do
know he married in 1873 a Lucy Elizabeth Marshalsay after
serving on Perim Island off Aden.  We know that Edward joined
the Railways at a later date and was murdered, allegedly by
his workers -- possibly around 1910?  It would obviously be
of great help if some friendly soul(s) were to point us in
the right direction."

Hancocks is curious to find out if in the archives of the
Convent and Church of St Francis of Assisi in Goa is any
record of the birth of Edward (Edouard) Francis De Mello
between 1843 and 1849.

"I realise we are in murky waters here and am convinced that
the name 'Francis Thomas' De Mellow was a pseudonym, for one
thing it is not a Portuguese spelling of first names or
surname either.  I have a copy of Edward's marriage
certificate of 1873 which depicts the above version but does
not give Edward's date of birth.  It is possible that: (a)
Edward knew his father's real name and for reason's of
personal safety did not want to reveal it; and (b) Edward did
not know his father's real name. Any information at all is
most welcome and could lead to a very interesting story!," as
he puts it.

It's a mystery popping out from the pages of the past....

Cliff Pereira from the UK and Tivim (Bardez) has an
interesting story on how he got involved in the search for
his roots. His late grandmother told the family about her
grandfather, who was a 'shippey' in World War I. Apparently,
the family thought he was dead, and then he actually turned
up for a mock funeral.

"I was about nine at the time and the memory remained with
me. As the years went by and we had to leave Africa for
Europe. I found myself not British -- in the sense of a
shared history. This is hardly surprising, given that Goa was
a Portuguese colony. Neither was I African either despite
being third generation Kenyan and speaking Swahili. Not
Indian either, as I did not speak any Asian language and was
not Hindu, Sikh, Moslem, Buddhist or Jain," Pereira puts it.

It was this lack of an identity that made "me search for my
roots", says Cliff Pereira. Many questions puzzled his mind.
On whose side was his great grand father -- the Germans or
the Allies? Was he really in the War?

As time passed, Pereira heard of Goan cooks on cruise ships
and in the Merchant Navy. He began interviewing family
members -- parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, grand
uncles, and so on.

"By the time I was at University, I knew my
great-grandfathers name and approximate date of birth and
place of birth (Tivim). I then found an old photo of him with
his medals. I enlarged this with a photocopier and went to a
medal-antique seller. He confirmed them as three British WWI
Navy medals and one other. I then contacted the (British)
Ministry of Defence. And they later phoned me to say that
they had some details, which were pased on to me," recalls
Pereira with nostalgia.

He managed to piece together parts of the story of his
great-grandfather's life. The local (English) History Society
asked for a copy of his findings during the 1998 Black and
Asian History Month. The Institute of Commonwealth Studies
printed his article on the historic voyage in its newsletter
last year.

While all this went on, he returned to Goa to "search further
back". By searching graveyards, he found another side of his
mother's family, by way of tombstones and niches. He found an
old birth-certificate in Portuguese which "tied very well
with the grave inscriptions".

Says Pereira: "I did try to do some research at the church
records in various villages in Goa -- but I found (some of)
the priests more interested in bribes and news about the UK.
I still have not used the State Archives in Panjim. I do not
know how to get in there. Do I need to make an appointment?"

From distant Malaysia, Anthony Morris has a peculiar story.

Says Morris: "I'm trying to trace records of my wife's
forebears (from Goa). I've found a few photos but no names.
Do you have any idea where I can search on the Net? I know
church records could be found, but where on the Net?" Morris
himself traces his roots to Kerala, while his wife's are in
Goa.

Morris says he has a "number of photos" of people from Goa,
but "no clues". Says he: "I may put it up on a web page later
for anyone who may recognise and identify them. I do not like
to discard photos which may be valuable to another person."

Goans have migrated the globe. They are still to be found
across many continents, even if this diaspora remains largely
under-studied, excepting by rare scholars like the UK-based
Dr Stella Mascarenhas-Keyes.

While discussing Brazil, Cliff Pereira says he has an uncle
in Itabuna, Bahia who is "possibly the world's leading
authority on cocoa, rubber and coffee diseases". He has two
cousins in Sao Paulo -- one doing his internship as a doctor,
and the other working for Mercedes SA in their
computer-design section. His uncle was born in Cunchelim,
near Mapusa, and cousins in Nairobi, Kenya.

Pereira says he came across an interesting piece of folklore
in Bahia. Some people hint that the sugarlords of Salvador
and the Cacao Barons of Ilheus used to "import" Goan women as
cooks and child minders. "While I havn't researched the
story. I have been informed by the London-based Black and
Asian Studies Association (BASA) that in the 19th century
there was some trafficking (slavery) of women from Asia via
Macau to Brazil. It would be great if someone could research
this," says he.

Cliff Pereira, currently 41, has been working on his family's
history since 1984. This has really picked-up momentum over
the last three years, as he was recovering from a serious
chest illness and had time on his hands, located a useful new
Internet cafe in his town, and also experienced part of the
growing interest among younger people in the 25-40 age group
in Canada in their heritage and family history.

So, if one wants to, how does one go about actually tracing one's roots?

Former director of the XCHR, now a professor in Lisbon, Dr
Teotonio R de Souza says: "I advise people always to start
with oral traditions kept in the family or in the village.
They often provide many clues for further research on family
links." Souza is arguably one of the most prominent
Indo-Portuguese historians of Goan origin.

According to Souza, Catholics, if they are 'zonnkars'
(members or shareholders) of some comunidade or another can
always discover which 'vangodd' (roughly, clan) they belong
to. It is possible then to check other families linked to the
same clan or vangodd.

"Their family links could be common families. The same
vangodd families can today have different surnames as
Catholics, but vangodd determines the original common clan,"
says Souza.

Hindu Goans are connected with some temple deity, and it is
possible to check who are the Mahajans and other connected
clans.

There are other records available too.

Says Dr Souza: "Judicial records are very useful, specially
the 'inventXrios'. The priestly ordination records also
contain indications of parents and grand-parents that can
provide many other useful leads. The land registers (called
"forais", "tombos" ) are also very important sources for
checking the families that owned lands in various villages of
Goa at various times, right from the 16th century."

He points out that civil registration records are the other
important sources. Many of these records are available in the
civil registration offices in the respective talukas, but
most of the older ones are in the Goa Historical Archives.

Church records are useful too.

"Records in the Archbishops archives do not go beyond 18th
century. But some parishes still keep older archives," says
the former XCHR director. He has himself done work on this
subject, and his own chapter in John Correia-Afonso's book
'Indo-Portuguese History: Sources and Problems' (Oxford,
1981) contains more details on church records. Details are
available on the Internet site
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1503/teo_publ.html

Says Panjim-based historian Dr Fatima Gracias: "Goans, if
Catholics, who want to find their roots should check Parish
Registers of birth, marriage and death at Patriarchal Palace,
Altinho or the Goa Archives at Rua de Ourem."

As Gracias points out, before 1914 births were not registered
at the Civil Registry in Goa.  The Civil Registry Code 1914,
made it compulsory to register births in all communities
within 30 days. Members of the Hindu community generally did
not register their birth before this date. But before this
date, births, marriages and deaths among the Christians in
Goa were registered at the Church.

Gracias says that many of the Parish Registers are -- or were
till some three to four years ago -- at Patriarchal Palace,
Altinho. At that time a decision was taken to transfer them
to the Goa Archives-Panjim, which had already some volumes of
Parish registers. There are registers for over two centuries.
The Goa Archives also has registers from Government Civil
Registry for the period after 1914.

Understanding local customs also plays a key role in helping
to trace one's roots.

It is necessary to find out where the person was born. It was
a custom for women of all strata of the Goan society to go
for their delivery -- at least in the case of the first child
-- to the home of their mother. So the first born and many
times a few other children too were born in the home of the
maternal grandparents.

"In many instances the residence of maternal grandparents was
different from the place where the mother of the new born
normally lived or was married. However, in some cases, due to
distance, lack of transport, other facilities or
superstitions, girls were married within the village or
neighbouring villages," says Gracias.

When a child was born in the home of maternal grandparents
the child was usually baptised there as the mother and child
stayed at the maternal home at least for month if not more
after the delivery. The birth was registered at this Parish
and not in the Parish to which the parents or father of the
child belonged.
 
Parish registers of births provide the following information
-- name of the child, date of birth, place of birth, name of
the parents, place from where they come, names of
god-parents, at times name of grandparents, date of baptism
etc.

Dr Gracias has herself waded through a whole lot of Parish
registers in some other context, while researching for my
Ph.D thesis and subsequently, about three to four years ago.
At times she found the same names and surnames being repeated
from generation to generation, only the birth dates are
different."

To find a birth certificate from the Church Register one has
to know when the Baptism (christening) ceremony was held.
Normally the ceremony was held on the eighth day, or after
eight days.

In case the infant was born very sick, the infant was
immediately baptised at home by the midwife or any other
person and subsequently, usually within a month, the birth
was registered at the Parish.

Marriage certificates hold another clue. Marriages were held
at the Parish of the groom. Such registers give the full
names of the couple, date and place of birth, name of the
parents and name of witnesses. Death certificates also
provide besides the name of the person, the name of the
parents, spouse in case he or she was married, occupation,
age and cause of death.
  
Says Dr Gracias: "So if one knows the name, place and date of
birth of a grand parent say Mr.X, they can start looking for
his birth, marriage or death certificates which in turn will
provide information about Mr.X's parents and grandparents.
From there one has to move backward and follow the same
procedure. Sometimes one can even find about the siblings of
say Mr. X if one goes through the records for a period of
10-years before or after the birth of Mr.X."

Today many families in Goa -- whether Christian or Hindu --
have their family trees and these too can provide lost
connection. This is particularly among the upper crust of
Goans who, in many instances, are inter-related.

"It was also a practice among educated Goans during the
Portuguese period to keep some kind of records about the
their family with details of the birth of their
children-time, day of the week or month, year, day of the
baptism and details of the health conditions of the infant at
birth. Very often the child was named after the saint of the
day or this was given as middle name," says Dr Gracias.

She narrates that she has a young Goan friend who was born
and brought up in Portugal, and who is now at Sao Paulo,
Brazil. Pedro do Carmo Costa, this friend, has has made a
huge family tree connecting various Goan families of Salcete,
according to Dr Gracias.

Librarian at the Xavier Centre of Historical Research in Alto
Porovirm, Lilia Maria D'Souza suggests that scholar Forjaz's
research study on Indo-Portuguese families is about to be
published.

Says she: "We have a couple of books on Goan genealogy...
(collected) whenever Goans choose to write about their
ancestors. There are also some works on the Portuguese who
came to Goa during the colonial rule." Ms D'Souza suggests
that visitors can check out the material available at the
XCHR, preferably in the mornings.

Wills, property deeds and communidade records (of jonoeiros
or 'zonnkars' and gauncares) could also provide some
information. Some temples also offer valuable details, as Dr
Gracias points out.

Suggests homeopathic practitioner Sushruta Martins, whose
family has also been keenly keeping records of its roots:
"One can simply find out from which Communidade the
individual belongs. Try to find out which are the temples
that come under the Communidade's jurisdiction. You will get
the surnames of all those who are mahajans of the temples. On
the basis of this information and the caste of the person in
question, roots could be determined by deduction. There are
some records in the archive department too. Based on this
information and the list of the 'zonnkars' one can arrive to
a conclusion."

William R da Silva, formerly Reader at Goa University's
Sociology Department, explains: "At the turn of the twentieth
century family tree and tracing it back to Goa was a craze of
legitimacy (in Mangalore) specially in the Bamon, Chad'ddo
line". Others didn't want this or care for this, he says,
suggesting that the stigma of caste might have been the
discouraging factor there.

Says Silva: "(Common people) did not generally trace beyond
three generations. But the landed-people generally did. So
did people receiving 'zon' in the ganvkari or ganvponn. One
family was Vaz-Naik, another Lobo-Prabhu, another
Fernandes-Prabhu. And so on."

Silva, who is himself from Mangalore, recounts of how in the
1980s Professor Wilfred R. D'Souza of Udupi traced back and
wide his Souza-Mudarta family. He came to north Goa several
times, and met the retired author of "Goa and The Continent
of Circe". From there went to coastal Maharashtra or northern
Konkani and returned to Goa with an elderly Mudra-member of
his Souza-Mudarta clan, to let him narrate the past --
property, gods, members and occupation and wrote a book on
this in time for a silver jubilee in the family.

Does searching for one's roots really make a difference? Is
it important, after all? Is it just a backward-looking
perspective? Or is it also important to understanding why we
are like we are?

Tom Fernandes of Germany, whom we met above, has a Goan
father. Recently, he was in Goa, on a mission to know more
about a distant place his father called home. But, after a
longish visit, he says: "I didn't have (enough) time to check
my roots (and trace the family-tree this time). I won't take
the time to do so until I'm certain that I will stay here for
a long time." Unfortunately, his visa expired, and inspite of
his Goan lineage, he had to leave the country to get it
renewed.

Many of those who have scoured the globe have done so in very
circuitous routes. Tom's is a classic case.

Tom's father's parents moved from Goa to Tanzania "a long
time ago". So he was born there but grew up "amidst Goan
culture". About 30 years ago Fernandes Sr. met Tom's German
mother there and, after a few years, they moved to Germany.
"I was born and grew up in Germany under the German culture.
Still I never felt like a German or "home" there. And I never
really understood my father's mentality," says this young
man, who made a whole lot of friends in computer and other
circles during his recent visit to Goa.

Tom found his dad had a "very relaxed mentality and stuff
like that". In India, people face a lot of basic problems --
no water, power failures, phones not working, yet they keep
on living and smiling. This intrigues Tom, who came down to
Goa to find out more.

Says he, after his recent stay here: "I think Indians are
very creative in solving problems. I understand my dad in
some ways much better now and really wished to spend some
time here with him. I never knew who I really was ("what I
consist of") until I learned about the other side of my
origin. I really want to check my roots in Candolim one day,
ask if there are some distant relatives still living here --
most of them are spread over the globe or have gone to
Bombay. I'm really sad about not speaking Konkani or Hindi
and I won't be able or have time to learn it in the near
future."

Tom's elder sisters also spent some time of their life in
Goa. "It gives you some answers on some questions you never
asked or thought of before, but which just where somewhere in
your subconsciousness. I tell you I feel better since I came
here which doesn't mean I felt bad before. It's just like the
more you know about yourself the 'stronger' you get," he
says, not without a touch of nostalgia.

Tom Fernandes says he really loves "the Goan way of live".
Excluding, of course, the gossip which means people have "an
eye on everything and talk about everything with everybody".
He also dislikes the inequality between men and women.

Perhaps it's more than just nostalgia. Finding out who you
are, and where you come from, could lend a sense of
perspective. Even if without the largely negative risk of
carrying with it feelings of superiority or inferiority
linked to institutions like caste, which cut across religious
lines in Goa to affect almost everyone.
 
Cliff Pereira, who is one of those searching for his roots,
outlines the broad picture. "Much of our Goan history
(especially of the diaspora) has not been documented. Caught
between two empires, Goans have been dubbed Asian, Eurasian,
Mixed Race, Canarian, or Portuguese and have been
conveniently ommited in British and Portuguese history, as
well as that of newly independent countries (e.g. Uganda and
Pakistan). This needs to be corrected," Pereira argues
strongly. He quotes the Swahili saying: when two elephants
fight, it is the grass that is trampled.

But now, he feels "quite proud" to be a Briton of Goan origin
"with a shared history in Goa, British India and colonial
Africa". For, he says, his identify is "embedded in a
colourful mosaic of history covering three continents". This,
he feels, is something to be proud of. "If only I knew what I
now know in my teens, I would have had the drive that I so
needed," he regrets.

Back in the UK, Cliff Pereira stores his 'family databases'
on a computer floppy. He now has access to the British
Library and its Oriental and Indian Office Collection which,
he says, has uncovered a whole generation of Goans who lived
in Aden and worked for the British East India Company, the
Bombay Presidency and the Royal Navy.

In Malaysia, Morris' own desire to trace his ancestry is
two-fold. Firstly, he wants to see how far back he can trace
the lineage of both his wife (a Goan) and himself (Malyalee).
His wife is a Fernandes, and he found a family-tree drawn by
her uncle, which traces her father's side to around 1839.
That family tree is peppered with typically-Goan surnames --
Rodrigues, Fernandes, Dias, Monteiros and Furtados.

In addition, Morris has a long-term goal of converting
existing Catholic Church records into digital format, so that
anyone wanting to trace their lineage can do so easily. This,
he suggests, may be in the form of actually scanning of
Church records, which would end up as a very-large computer
file. Alternatively, it could be a simple record stating
births, marriages and deaths. Further details could be made
available with a Web-master, he suggests.

Says he: "One person cannot possibly maintain such a website.
My idea is a link between different records. Do you think
such an idea is feasible? From my own search, I know that
there would be people looking for such links."

Goa Archives have copies of wills and property deeds. Says Dr
Gracias: "I don't think there are any short cuts if you are
looking beyond four generations. The work is time-consuming
but interesting."

****************************************************************
CAPTION FOR PHOTO: Rodrigues of Margao (first name unknown),
a band-master, from the 1890s, possibly in Mozambique. His
family resided in Goa, and relatives in Malaysia are
currently searching for links. His daughter married a
Cornelio Dourado from Arlem.

CAPTION FOR PHOTO 2: Old scene from another world... Panjim
from past decades, as shot by early photography house Souza &
Paul. x

[augusto pinto]

While I welcome Adolph de Souza's intervention which revives the old thread about Caste and Club: A study of Goan politics in Nairobi I wonder why my fellow moderator chose to erase all the correspondence and bring up an essay of his which has no reason to exist here. I don't like his agenda setting.

I am going to take FN's post elsewhere, and allow anyone who has something to say on the matters that are pertinent here to comment.

Augusto

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

On 2 August 2015 at 09:55, Adolph de Sousa <adolph...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I am more interested to know how members of the Book club believe is the future of Goans in the Diaspora

Hi Adolph,

You raise interesting questions...

While I'm no expert on this subject, my encounters with the expats suggest the reality is very complex, different in differing geographical areas, and dependent on a number of 'push' and 'pull' factors, if we could use those terms.

At the rise of broad generalisations and simplification, let me make some observations:

* In societies where migrant Goans can 'merge' with the setting (and the crowd), and don't feel the need to retain cultural or linguistic links with Goa, they're probably going to merge. Sooner rather than later. This seems to be the case with places like Portuguese, Britain, and the ANZUS White Anglo-Saxon dominated world. It also fits in with the Goan (caste-based?) urge to merge into some 'superior' genetic pool, etc.

* At the same time, we find a few individuals even in the above setting, doing amazing work in tracing their roots, studying their culture, answering the 'Who Am I' question. Without doubt, a lot of interesting Goan studies in recent years (including some of the books we publish) have come from here.

* Bombay/Mumbai is a very mixed bag. The earlier centres of Goan settlement (for instance, Dhobi Talao) have been dispersed widely. In fact, much of Goa's cultural productions (Romi newspapers, tiatrs) once came out of these centres. Goan population has got scattered across the city now, and is no longer as concentrated in these pockets. But, on the other hand, there are new "Goan" centres like IC Colony, Borivali, and so on.

* The post-1947 (Partition/Independence) reality has been really unhelpful to Goans in Karachi. Some estimates say there are 16,000 Goans still there now. This was a figure, if not wrong, given by Menin Rodrigues of the Goans of Pakistan.org network. Their visa woes continue, for not fault of theirs (they did not migrate to post-1947 Pakistan on religious grounds, but were economic migrants in an earlier phase). Some communication and transport developments have helped them though, and we've been hearing more of this group in Goa itself. Some even wanted tiatrs from Goa to be staged there; but our tiatrists, when asked, make a puzzled face, what with all those stereotypes about "Pakistan" dominant in the Indian media still.

* The most interesting area is the sudden awareness of small Goan communities in pockets in diverse areas: Malaysia, Singapore, Malawi, Calcutta, Bangalore, Belgaum, Hubli, the Bardezkars in the Karnataka-Maharashtra border areas, etc.

* One amazing story to emerge is the growing awareness, on both sides, of the Goan-Mangalorean migration story. As Alan Machado never tires telling us, "You guys keep talking about your diasporas but you forget what probably was among the first and the largest migration from Goa!" In my youth, I recall young Mangaloreans just point blank denying they had anything to do with Goa. Today, we're publishing histories of those communities, and books like Tony D'Souza's The Konkans have taken this awareness to the international level. So have initiatives like the MANgalorean-GOan community radion initiative called radiomango.ca from Canada.

* The spurt of awareness over this issue has undeniably come from cyberspace.

* There still seems to be a reluctance among Hindu and Catholic Goans (both of whom have a different migratory experience and even colonial experience, in many cases) to link up in the diaspora.

* But as more Hindu Goans take to migration themselves, I guess the state government too will waken up to the needs and the reality of the diasporas.

Just a few thoughts. Sharing this with statistician John Nazareth, who came up with some figures of the Goan diaspora

The tables can be found at:
http://bit.ly/rd3K8J  and
http://bit.ly/r8uMAU

Best wishes, and thanks for initiating this debat.e.. and also linking it with relevant Goa books!

[Eugene Correia]

Once before Fred has quoted John Nazareth. Maybe he's a statistician but the figures are out of thin air. As a matter of fact, the figures of Goans in the Toronto (now the Greater Toronto Area or GTA) cannot be found in any statistical form. The ministry of immigration do NOT keep figures by narrow community groups, but by putting Goans in the Indian category. The Indian forms the South Asian group, and so forth.

At one time, Al Mathias,  who like John is from Uganda and once was VP of GOA, suggested that Goans put Konkani as their mother tongue, for one reason is to know the number of Goans, in the Ontario census. It's another matter whether Konkani is spoken at home. Very few must be putting Konkani as their mother tongue. It's English, English, damn English. 

Hence, Fred do not go by figures that are dished out. This calls for "realistic" figures and can ONLY be obtained if the Goan associations make efforts to have surveys done in their respective region.

At least, some reliable would come out of it.

Eugene

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 5:27 PM, Eugene Correia <eugene....@gmail.com> wrote:

I wish that Jeanne goes ahead and attaches or put it in dropbox or somewhere where it can be downloaded. Since the debate has gone back to Diaspora Goans, it needs to take a look at the thesis and what the author said at that time of caste politics in Kenya.

It's also pertinent to ask that Cornel's article is posted to get another perspective. It would indeed be interesting to gather the views of African Goans and, subsequently, their views on their present status, either living in East Africa or any other continent.

Though caste wasn't visible to me on the surface during visits to Goa, there seems that this factor lies a layer below the surface. Maybe another 100 years it will go out of circulation. Till then, let's live and let live. 

Today's OHeraldo carries an article on the youth of Salcette, and some of the interviewees, who are diaspora Goans, relate their experiences -- and frustrations -- in Goa.

If Swindon is the new satellite of Goan townships, such as Etobicoke once was when Uganda Goans made it their hub, there is no fear that overseas Goan identity is likely to disappear in a few years. More Goans are coming to Canada, and next week is the Viva Goa, which has been revived. 

The more things change, the more they appear to be the same.

Eugene

--

[Eugene Correia]

I wish that Jeanne goes ahead and attaches or put it in dropbox or somewhere where it can be downloaded. Since the debate has gone back to Diaspora Goans, it needs to take a look at the thesis and what the author said at that time of caste politics in Kenya.

It's also pertinent to ask that Cornel's article is posted to get another perspective. It would indeed be interesting to gather the views of African Goans and, subsequently, their views on their present status, either living in East Africa or any other continent.

Though caste wasn't visible to me on the surface during visits to Goa, there seems that this factor lies a layer below the surface. Maybe another 100 years it will go out of circulation. Till then, let's live and let live. 

Today's OHeraldo carries an article on the youth of Salcette, and some of the interviewees, who are diaspora Goans, relate their experiences -- and frustrations -- in Goa.

If Swindon is the new satellite of Goan townships, such as Etobicoke once was when Uganda Goans made it their hub, there is no fear that overseas Goan identity is likely to disappear in a few years. More Goans are coming to Canada, and next week is the Viva Goa, which has been revived. 

The more things change, the more they appear to be the same.

Eugene

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا <frederic...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[John Nazareth]

Hi Frederick

 

On reading this email of yours I went back to check whether my email to Andrew Pereira of Times of India (on the issue of estimating Goan populations around the world) had been copied to you. When I found that I had forgotten to do so, I forwarded it a short while ago. Some of my answers to him are pertinent to the issues you raise.

 

One was the issue you raise is about “merging”. I raised likewise this issue of Goans in Portugal. I think it is biggest there, but could be an issue elsewhere. To an extent it exists here in Canada. But to counter that, we have done much more work on cultural exploration here in the last 35 years than we had ever done among Goans in the diaspora before that.

 

In April this year I spent a few days with friends and relatives in Mumbai. (I had to give some training courses in Chennai and took a few days vacation to go to Mumbai. The time was too short to come to Goa. I couldn’t bear to go to Goa for just a few days.) In discussing things with them about things Goan, and about much of current  research, they became very uncomfortable. They seem to want to concentrate on their Catholic togetherness in Mumbai. I guess we all face our pressures…..

 

On roots, I know 2 friends whose fathers were from Sawantwadi – they were embarrassed to have to admit that their fathers were not Goan. When I explained that they were of Goan origin, they felt relieved. One told me that he discovered that his father’s roots were in Aldona. (Of course, they should have felt no embarrassment – it shouldn’t be an issue if some of your kin are not Goan.)

 

And another story that was tragic. It concerns my first cousin in Kuala Lumpur. ( 90% of the Goans in Malaysia are my mother’s relatives.) My first-cousin’s father was a Tamil from KL. Apparently there was a split in the family because he was marrying someone who was not Indian. (Many of my family thought that Goans were Portuguese.) When I explained to him that of course we are Indians he was taken aback.

 

On Hindu Goans, more are coming out. I met a man named Kamat at a party in Hamilton Ontario a few months ago. When I asked him whether he was Goan, he told me he was from Mangalore and had Goan roots.

 

You are right, the Mangalorean connection is the biggest thing to happen in our community. In 1986 when I was President of the Goan Overseas Association of Toronto I wrote an article in our newsletter “Mangaloreans – the Goans That Survived”. I based it on the little info that was available from a book by Priolkar. (It was meant as a lesson of hope for us that if the Mangaloreans could survive 200 years outside Goa and still be substantially the same as us, there was hope for Goans in the diaspora.) But this was so scanty compared to Alan’s work. Great job Alan – and thank you.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

From: Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا [mailto:frederic...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2015 5:43 AM
To: The Third Thursday Goa Book Club; John Nazareth; John Nazareth; Menin Rodrigues; alanma...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Discussion on books

 

On 2 August 2015 at 09:55, Adolph de Sousa <adolph...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Eugene Correia]

It's historical truth about Mangloreans are of Goan stock. But I heard many Mangloreans in Mumbai in the 70s (I also wrote a Christmas feature on Mumbai's Chrisitians) that they want to be known as Mangloreans per se. Just as Catholic or rather to use the right term "Chrisitian Goans", as Goa has changed with many denominations, would not want to be referred as former Hindus. Or, maybe we are as the Deputy CM said to be politically correct, "Hindu Christian."

The Manglorean of today has a distinct identity. In the Mumbai or Bombay of old, they had their own tiatrs, and I often attended with my dad who played in the band on invitation, which were not patronized by Goans. Though Mangloreans often came for Goan tiatrs.

The Manglorean had their own weekly paper, as the editor worked as a press operator in the daily paper, Free Press Joural, where I worked in those days. Not sure if the two streams have met, though Toronto has the Mango Radio. Remember in the 80s the young adults of the CanOrient, largely Mangloreans, and GOA would come together to hold the Black Tie affair. 
John Nazareth himself worked hard to merge the two associations but failed. 

Eugene

--