Honor in Konkani

[sandralobo]

Hello to all,

 

I'm dealing with a 1911 text where the author affirms that the concept of "personal honor" didn't exist in Konkani, so the idea of "swear on one's honor" was untranslatable and made no sense to a Konkani speaking Goan. I do ask help to confirm or deny this statement.

 

thanks,

 

Sandra

[Tony Martin]

Sandra
It is an undeniable fact that the Mother 'Avoi' is synonymous with honour in any civil society here or abroad. So "swear on one's honor" can easily be said in Konkani as "Avoichean" 
But I will concede that Konkani is very limited as a language.
Anyway let me add that the language of the heart is universal. Everyone can understand and say everything without saying anything.
Tony Martin  

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
Tony Martin Copy/Content Writing
http://www.facebook.com/tonymartingoaGalgibaga, Canacona

[sandralobo]

Dear Tony,

Thank you for your answer.

I can give the background of my question, which is motivated by the need to "read" a writer's argument.

The statement was done by a Goan journalist in 1911, when arguing against the new laicist legislation by the new Portuguese Republic, which substituted the "swear on God" by "swear on one's honor" in official acts and court trials. He was speaking as a militant Catholic and he mainly argued about the contradiction of swear without the reference to God, but in addition he reinforced his argument locating the difficulty for most Goan population, as Konkani speaking, to even express and incorporate such laic concept.

I already have two sugestions your's - Avoichean - and another given by Fred - Utor. I already know that Utor has no religious connection. Does Avoichean has any religious background or support? What is usual to use in Konkani if one wants to give his/her «word of honor», without reference to God's testemony?


S

________________________________

De: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com em nome de Tony Martin
Enviada: qui 08-12-2011 17:01
Para: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com
Assunto: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Honor in Konkani

Sandra
It is an undeniable fact that the Mother 'Avoi' is synonymous with honour in any civil society here or abroad. So "swear on one's honor" can easily be said in Konkani as "Avoichean"
But I will concede that Konkani is very limited as a language.
Anyway let me add that the language of the heart is universal. Everyone can understand and say everything without saying anything.
Tony Martin

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:56 AM, sandralobo <sandr...@netcabo.pt> wrote:

Hello to all,

I'm dealing with a 1911 text where the author affirms that the concept of "personal honor" didn't exist in Konkani, so the idea of "swear on one's honor" was untranslatable and made no sense to a Konkani speaking Goan. I do ask help to confirm or deny this statement.

thanks,

Sandra

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com <mailto:goa-book-club%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .

[Alda Figueiredo]

Dear Sandra

 

I presume the word of honor in Konkani is " Deuachean" .  but it makes reference to God's testimony.

I hear this word  commonly used in Goa.

Alda 

 

    To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-club+unsub...@googlegroups.com <mailto:goa-book-club%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .

    For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.
   




--
Tony Martin Copy/Content Writing
http://www.facebook.com/tonymartingoaGalgibaga, Canacona


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-club+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-club+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Cecil Pinto]

Dear Alda,

I am assuming you mean Devachan. By itself it is not powerful. You
have to pinch the skin on the front of your throat and look sincere to
make it valid. In schools where Konkani was banned one said "God
promise".

Honour is different.

Cheers!

Cecil

============

> goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:goa-book-club%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .
>     For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Tony Martin Copy/Content Writing
> http://www.facebook.com/tonymartingoaGalgibaga, Canacona
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
> To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
> To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
> To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.

[Ricardo Afonso]

 

HELLO FREDERICK…

 

HAPPY WEEKEND TO ALL

 

I ASKED A WISE AND INFORMED RELATIVE, WHOSE REPLY IS…. AS FOLLOWS

 

Swearing on personal honour is not in the Konkani idiom.

 

But to swear in God's name does exist, i.e., "DEVACHEAN".

 

"Mojea mnanchea utram" is the closest.

I TRUST … THIS REPLY MIGHT ……………………………. HELP US THINK !

 

RICARDO

    For more options, visit this group at http://groups.googlecom/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

   




--
Tony Martin Copy/Content Writing
http://www.facebook.com/tonymartingoaGalgibaga, Canacona


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-club+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.googlecom/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-club+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.

[Jason Keith Fernandes]

Some comments,

Tony, while I am no supporter of these dominant Konkani narratives, I think it is just as odd to suggest that Konkani is limited as a language. A language is as limited as the culture it incarnates in. It is limited by the nature of relations that people that use the language have. These limitations of relations is a result not of a civilisational backwardness, but because of larger socio-economic conditions that forge the 'culture' of these people.

To suggest that Konkani is limited as a language is to return to the terribly racist 18th and 19th century theories that caused all the trouble (and continue to do so).

Sandra,

I think that the responses you are getting are interesting, as they seem to indicate a lack of a reference to an individual self in Konkani. The self that is referred to when one swears, is a self that is linked to either mother, child or deity.

Perhaps this conservative Catholic of yours was right. The individuals that the Republicans (curses on them :- P)  sought to create, is the result of the peculiar histories of Western Europe that was then subsequently universalised, and post facto created in other parts of the world.

This is not to say that the concept of the individual was absent, but this particular individual seems to have been absent at this particular point in time, in the particular space that is being discussed.

Make much sense?

J

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
-----------------------------------------------------
Read my thoughts at www.dervishnotes.blogspot.com
----------------------------------------------------
For a successful revolution it is not enough that there is discontent. What is required is a profound and thorough conviction of the justice, necessity and importance of political and social rights.
(B R Ambedkar)

[Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا‎]

On 9 December 2011 15:15, Jason Keith Fernandes <jason.k....@gmail.com> wrote:

To suggest that Konkani is limited as a language is to return to the terribly racist 18th and 19th century theories that caused all the trouble (and continue to do so).

Jason, Bro Tony has obviously been hasty in his conclusions, while I cannot fully agree with your very post-modern approach, which is suggestive of all-languages-are-equal.

Konkani? A limited language?

I guess it would all depend on what is the criteria we choose to judge it...

As a language to discuss the computer sciences, legal jurisprudence or parliamentary practise, I am sure it would be wholly inadequate. (So what? Even major languages like the powerful and back-by-economic-clout German are compelled to pick up all those words emerging from Silicon Valley to express itself. For instance:

Ich musste den Computer neu booten / rebooten, weil die Software gecrasht ist.
I had to reboot the computer because the software crashed.

If you refer to Konkani as a language of the soil, to express ideas related to the agrarian lifestyle, to echo the thoughts and feelings (poetry or prose) of this region known as the Konkan, to express sayings rooted in the locality and typical regional culture... and the like, then it would be second to none.

Of course, because of the major linguistic distincts we've had here both pre- and post-1961, one could say that not enough people have spent not enough time to explore the depths of what Konkani can offer. The conflicts (and hegemony) over dialect and script have only worsened things, in my view. FN

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India 

http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org 

[sandralobo]

Dear Alda,

Thanks for the input. That is what I want to clarify: if there is in Konkani the concept of "word of honor" without religious reference, which implies a non-religious idea of honor (intimately connected with the foundations of moral) because that was the argument of the author.

Sandra

________________________________

Dear Tony,

S

________________________________

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com <mailto:goa-book-club%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
Tony Martin Copy/Content Writing
http://www.facebook.com/tonymartingoaGalgibaga, Canacona

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.

[Selma Cardoso]

I think an important piece is missing here. We are not talking about "swearing" per se, we are talking about "swearing in a court of law" hence, perjuring yourself would involve some indemnity to that honour. I am surprised, the Republicans while seeking to distance themselves from "God" and wanting to secularise their proceedings should have chosen such a nebulous concept as "honour" for honour by 1911 would all have but dissipated from its former glory of Shakespeare's time. Bear in mind then, that to blacken one' honour would mean eternal ruination. Business and marriage were conducted entirely on one's honour. Sureties and references were dependent on one's honour. Back then, this was a tangible concept, so it is surprising that Portugal would have resurrected it in 1911, at the dawn of the twenthieth century.

 

I think, I agree with the 1911 journalist who stated that its exact equivalent in Konkani does not exist. The closest would be "utor". There is also "jurament" which might have a religious connotation. Of course, family and personal honour existed in Goa much as it did in Europe, but given that Goa was not stratified by way of aristocracy, nobility, landed gentry and so on, I would say swearing on one's honour meant little to a Goan by way of financial penalty, should that honour fall into question.

 

This is just me musing. I don't have any academic research to back it up. So please don't ask. (FN, I anticipate your usual, I disagree with Selma statement to follow shortly.)

 

Best,

selma

[Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا‎]

On 9 December 2011 15:38, Selma Cardoso <lescar...@yahoo.com> wrote:

(FN, I anticipate your usual, I disagree with Selma statement to follow shortly.)

I agree with Selma on the point that I do disagree with her. Don't ask why or how :-) 

FN

[Selma Cardoso]

It's that old school yard syndrome FN, of wanting to bully the girls you like :-) It's a good thing I don't wear pigtails :-)

From: Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا <frederic...@gmail.com>
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2011, 10:14
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Honor in Konkani

[sandralobo]

Dear all,

Picking Jason's answer, I have to say that by formation I'm particularly interested in History of Ideas, and not in being judgemental about the richness of a language. Language creates concepts and enriches them in dialog with it's own time and world visions; many times it has to import and adapt words because they correspond to concepts which are not original to the own culture - that happens with any language.

In this perspective, not knowing Konkani at all, what I want to understand is if this author was being accurate or manipulative in his statement, that is if there is such laic and individualist idea as "personal honor" in Konkani language, if this idea is knew or if it existed by that time. Perhaps Rochelle, who has dealt with 19th and early 20th Century Konkani could give an input.

Selma, Republicans - based on a long-time philosophical and political debate which goes back to the 18th Century, and more back in time to the Reform and the debate around freedom of exam - were trying to impose a laic State, which implied the creation of a moral not connected with religious ideas, though they picked up several current concepts which had religious connections and cleared them from religious foundations. That didn't mean that all of them where atheist, even in Goa several Catholic militants were defending the creation of a neutral State, but that they thought that mixing one owns religious believes with politics, public education, social organization, etc., was a bad business. One of the richness of the debates by that time is the intensive debate around totally different concepts of man, which had strong implications in political and social ideas.

Sandra

________________________________

Some comments,

Sandra,

Make much sense?

J

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com <mailto:goa-book-club% <mailto:goa-book-club%25> 2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.





--
Tony Martin Copy/Content Writing
http://www.facebook.com/tonymartingoaGalgibaga, Canacona


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com <mailto:goa-book-club%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
-----------------------------------------------------
Read my thoughts at www.dervishnotes.blogspot.com <http://www.dervishnotes.blogspot.com/>

----------------------------------------------------
For a successful revolution it is not enough that there is discontent. What is required is a profound and thorough conviction of the justice, necessity and importance of political and social rights.
(B R Ambedkar)

[alfred braganza]

Dear Selma Cardoso et al, I have spent 15 years at A.I.Radio in Mumbai & Goa  heading the Portuguese/Kobnkani division.During our broadcasts the term used for oath in Konkani was soput gheunk--to take an oath. This is the correct expression. Alfred F.Braganza

From: Selma Cardoso <lescar...@yahoo.com>
To: "goa-bo...@googlegroups.com" <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2011 2:08 AM

[alfred braganza]

Dear Cecil et al

I spent 15 years at the A.I.R. ,being in charge of Konkani and Portuguese Progs.

For the word oath we always used the word SOPUT .To take the oath= soput gheunk. Warmest regards to y, Alfred F. Braganza, Los Angeles,California. 

From: Cecil Pinto <cecil...@gmail.com>
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2011 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Honor in Konkani

> goa-book-club+unsub...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:goa-book-club%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .
>     For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Tony Martin Copy/Content Writing
> http://www.facebook.com/tonymartingoaGalgibaga, Canacona
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
> To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> goa-book-club+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
> To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> goa-book-club+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
> To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> goa-book-club+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-club+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[sandralobo]

Alfred,

The oath ( soput) is taken on what?

Sandra

________________________________

Some comments,

Sandra,

Make much sense?

J

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com <mailto:goa-book-club% <mailto:goa-book-club%25> 2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.





--
Tony Martin Copy/Content Writing
http://www.facebook.com/tonymartingoaGalgibaga, Canacona


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com <mailto:goa-book-club%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
-----------------------------------------------------
Read my thoughts at www.dervishnotes.blogspot.com <http://www.dervishnotes.blogspot.com/>

----------------------------------------------------
For a successful revolution it is not enough that there is discontent. What is required is a profound and thorough conviction of the justice, necessity and importance of political and social rights.
(B R Ambedkar)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

[Jason Keith Fernandes]

Dear Alfred,

It would be useful if you told us the exact location in time of those 15 years of service at AIR. Was this prior to 1961 or subsequent to?

'Soput' sounds very close to Shapath, which is the Hindi word for oath. We do know that there has been a tendency to Sanskritise Indian (or at least those assumed to be Aryan) languages when there is a lack of an appropriate word for the secular context.

Sandra, it would be useful to write to Fr. Willy D'Silva (at least I think it is D'SIlva) who is something of an etymologist for Konkani words, but in any case a scholar of the Konkani language.

regards,

Jason

[bos...@gmail.com]

In response to a query from me, here, earlier this year, Alfred's response can be found at:

http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club/msg/82d1972d1f25f020

Hope it helps with JKF's query.

- B

[augusto pinto]

The argument that Sandra Lobo reported in her first post viz.:"the

author affirms that the concept of "personal honor" didn't exist in
Konkani, so the idea of "swear on one's honor" was untranslatable and

made no sense to a Konkani speaking Goan" is unsound. There probably
is some ideological baggage attached to it - he was perhaps making an
argument for the use of Portuguese - or else he simply had been
brainwashed into thinking that Konkani was a primitive language only
fit for servants to use as many had been. This latter notion persists
even today as was (inadvertently?) averred to when Konkani was called
a 'limited language'.

Even if one does accept that a concept is not hitherto existent,
Konkani, like any other language, has the ability to generate new
terms to meet new needs. One simple method is to just borrow from the
most convenient source be it Sanskrit, Marathi, Hindi, Portuguese,
English or whatever. Coining neologisms (new words) is another option.
In this respect English is most voracious when it comes to expanding its
vocabulary both by using loan words and coining neologisms.

Incidentally of the Konkani terms already thrown up utor ditam, soput
ghetam and jurament - isn't the concept of honor already implicitly
there in them without having to be explicitly mentioned? Look at the
oath of office for the the President (and other Constitutional posts)
of India which begins as follows: "I, (name), do swear in the name of
God (or solemnly affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of
..."

BTW it would be quite easy to create a new oath word in
Konkani: just by adding the suffix -achean: as in avoichean;
bapaichean, bhoinichean, saibinichean etc. I can swear that I've
heard the word 'mhajean tar' (I swear on myself) actually used to make
an oath, even as a child, by other children who didn't want their
mothers or fathers mixed up in their swearing. I wonder if Damodar
Ghanekar who has compiled Konkani dictionaries could confirm this.

Cheers
Augusto

--

Augusto Pinto
40, Novo Portugal,
Moira, Bardez,
Goa, India
E pint...@gmail.com or ypin...@yahoo.co.in
P 0832-2470336
M 9881126350

[Selma C]

Augusto et al,
The journalist is not arguing whether the word per se exists in Goa. If that was the case, the word would easy have been substituted for in Portuguese. He was arguing that such a concept itself did not exist in Goa. The word honour can have both positive and negative implications. A primitive code of honour exists among tribal societies even today that feels the need to avenge impugning of family honour. So his argument could have been that Goans have never been such a tribal society. Alternatively in Western Europe, honour was as I said tied in with their stratification of society and their business dealings. It can be compared to a latter day company having tangible "goodwill" which can be sold off as an asset. Hence I am very surprised that the Portuguese decided to resurrect this archaic concept in 1911, when even in Portugal it wouldn't make much sense. I am quite sure, Sandra's subsequent research will show that the proposal never went through and even if it did, Salazar that ex-seminarian would have changed it back to God before they could all say alleluia.

Take care,
Selma

Sent from my iPad

[Tony Martin]

Dear Augusto
I completely agree with you when you say: "BTW it would be quite easy to create a new oath word in Konkani: just by adding the suffix -achean: as in avoichean;

bapaichean, bhoinichean, saibinichean etc.  I can swear that  I've
heard the word 'mhajean tar' (I swear on myself) actually used to make
an oath, even as a child, by other children who didn't want their
mothers or fathers mixed up in their swearing."
 

But please understand that when I said Konkani is a limited language it was purely in terms of the books available in Konkani -- be it romi od nagri. Be it medicine, law, science or sports or plain comics for children.
Even on the job front knowledge of Konkani is pompously declared as essential but does it really matter. You and I know this by now better than anybody else.
I love my Konkani and I respect it too. But my love for it would never blind me to its varied limitations as a language. Let's face it: darling Konkani is still in the stone age.
 
Regards
Tony Martin

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Third Thursday Goa Book Club" group.
To post to this group, send email to goa-bo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to goa-book-clu...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club?hl=en.

[Santosh Helekar]

It is good that Bosco pointed this out. Alfred Braganza knows more
about Konknni than most people alive today. It ought to be common
knowledge that Konknni is derived primarily from Sanskrit.

Cheers,

Santosh

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 10:30 PM, bo...@goanet.org <bos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In response to a query from me, here, earlier this year, Alfred's response
> can be found at:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/goa-book-club/msg/82d1972d1f25f020
>
> Hope it helps with JKF's query.
>
> - B
>

> PM, Jason Keith

[sandralobo]

Selma,

The concept was not archaic but drawn upon the "modern" concept of individual, which owes much to Kantian foundations of moral.

Sandra

________________________________

De: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com em nome de Selma C
Enviada: sáb 10-12-2011 8:13
Para: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com
Assunto: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Honor in Konkani

[Tony Martin]

Sandra, to your question: "Does Avoichean has any religious background or support?" pl allow me to say this.

My answer is Yes and No. First No because a mother is obviously not a celestial being. 

Yes because, in the Indian tradition, a mother or a father precede even the Gods. Let me tell you the story of Pundarika.  

Pundarika used to visit the temple of Lord Panduranga every day. One day Pundarika was engrossed in the service of his parents and hence could not visit the temple. So Lord Panduranga Himself came to Pundarika. At that time Pundarika was pressing the feet of his parents. As Pundarika was busy serving his parents, he requested Lord Panduranga to take His seat and wait. So saying, he passed a brick to the Lord as there were no chairs and sofas in those days. After attending to his parents, Pundarika offered his due respects to the Lord Panduranga.

The Lord was immensely pleased with his devotion to his parents and blessed him profusely, saying God comes to you on His own when your behavior is good, "there is no service greater than service to parents. Consider service to parents as service to the Lord." We need not go to God, but should make God come to us. One can select one's wife, but not one's parents.
TM
Canacona

[Themistocles D'Silva]

ACCORDING TO THE FORAL DE SALCETE (1567), WHEN THE TEMPLES WERE DESTROYED,
GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS VISITED ALL THE SITES OF FORMER TEMPLES AND ROUNDED UP
THE OFFICIALS WHO MANAGED THE TEMPLE AFFAIRS AND THEY HAD TO DECLARE TO THE
OFFICIALS UNDER OATH, ALL THE FIXED ASSETS OF THE TEMPLES.

BELOW IS THE EXCERPT VERBATIM IN PORTUGUESE:

""ESTES TODOS GUANQUARES E VITOLA NAIK ESCRIVÃO DA DITA ALDEIA PERA QUE AOS
QUAIS O DITO JUIS DEU JURAMENTO NOS SAMTOS AUANGELHOS AO CRISTÃO E AOS
GENTIOS MANDAR NA RODA SEGUMDO SEUS COSTUMES...."

THE DOCUMENT DOES NOT DESCRIBE THE EXACT WORDS USED IN ADMINISTERING THE
OATH, THE HINDUS HAD TO WALK AROUND (SOMETHING) ACCORDING TO THEIR CUSTOMS -
PERHAPS AROUND A FIRE. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO KNOW IF THIS CUSTOM IS
STILL IN PRACTICE AND THE WORDS USED.

SOMEONE IN PORTUGAL SHOULD BE ABLE TO PROVIDE AN EXACT TRANSLATION AND
INTERPRETATION OF THE ABOVE IN ENGLISH.

(REF. PURABHILEKH-PURATATVA, VOL. 9, 1991, 23. ALSO PUBLISHED IN OTHER
PUBLICATIONS IN THIS SEREIRS FOR VARIOUS VILLAGES)

THEMISTOCLES

-----ORIGINAL MESSAGE-----
FROM: GOA-BO...@GOOGLEGROUPS.COM [MAILTO:GOA-BO...@GOOGLEGROUPS.COM]
ON BEHALF OF SANTOSH HELEKAR
SENT: SATURDAY, DECEMBER 10, 2011 10:32 AM
TO: GOA-BO...@GOOGLEGROUPS.COM
SUBJECT: RE: [GOABOOKCLUB] HONOR IN KONKANI

IT IS GOOD THAT BOSCO POINTED THIS OUT. ALFRED BRAGANZA KNOWS MORE
ABOUT KONKNNI THAN MOST PEOPLE ALIVE TODAY. IT OUGHT TO BE COMMON
KNOWLEDGE THAT KONKNNI IS DERIVED PRIMARILY FROM SANSKRIT.

CHEERS,

SANTOSH

ON FRI, DEC 9, 2011 AT 10:30 PM, BO...@GOANET.ORG <BOS...@GMAIL.COM> WROTE:
>
> IN RESPONSE TO A QUERY FROM ME, HERE, EARLIER THIS YEAR, ALFRED'S RESPONSE
> CAN BE FOUND AT:
>
> HTTP://GROUPS.GOOGLE.COM/GROUP/GOA-BOOK-CLUB/MSG/82D1972D1F25F020
>
> HOPE IT HELPS WITH JKF'S QUERY.
>
> - B
>

> PM, JASON KEITH
> FERNANDES <JASON.K....@GMAIL.COM> WROTE:
>
>> DEAR ALFRED,
>>
>> IT WOULD BE USEFUL IF YOU TOLD US THE EXACT LOCATION IN TIME OF THOSE 15
>> YEARS OF SERVICE AT AIR. WAS THIS PRIOR TO 1961 OR SUBSEQUENT TO?
>>
>> 'SOPUT' SOUNDS VERY CLOSE TO SHAPATH, WHICH IS THE HINDI WORD FOR OATH.
WE
>> DO KNOW THAT THERE HAS BEEN A TENDENCY TO SANSKRITISE INDIAN (OR AT LEAST
>> THOSE ASSUMED TO BE ARYAN) LANGUAGES WHEN THERE IS A LACK OF AN
APPROPRIATE
>> WORD FOR THE SECULAR CONTEXT.
>>
>> SANDRA, IT WOULD BE USEFUL TO WRITE TO FR. WILLY D'SILVA (AT LEAST I
THINK
>> IT IS D'SILVA) WHO IS SOMETHING OF AN ETYMOLOGIST FOR KONKANI WORDS, BUT
IN
>> ANY CASE A SCHOLAR OF THE KONKANI LANGUAGE.
>>
>> REGARDS,
>>
>> JASON
>>
>>

--
YOU RECEIVED THIS MESSAGE BECAUSE YOU ARE SUBSCRIBED TO THE GOOGLE GROUPS
"THE THIRD THURSDAY GOA BOOK CLUB" GROUP.
TO POST TO THIS GROUP, SEND EMAIL TO GOA-BO...@GOOGLEGROUPS.COM.
TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS GROUP, SEND EMAIL TO
GOA-BOOK-CLU...@GOOGLEGROUPS.COM.
FOR MORE OPTIONS, VISIT THIS GROUP AT
HTTP://GROUPS.GOOGLE.COM/GROUP/GOA-BOOK-CLUB?HL=EN.

[Selma C]

Hi Sandra,
I understand now. In that case perhaps the journalist was arguing that such as individualist concept does not exist for the Goan and perhaps he was of the opinion that the Goan's sense of honour is tied in to the collective. This is just a thought. Because if he was seeking for just a literal translation of the word or phrase, as we have seen, there are so many. One more has just come to my mind, 'hour, which I suppose is derived directly from honour. Every mother in very Goan village is always worried about daughters and sons bringing 'hour.

Take care,
Selma

Sent from my iPad

> <winmail.dat>

[alfred braganza]

My dear Jason Keith Fernandes, I was with AIR from 1952 to 1968 in Bombay & Goa. I flew in with the liberation team. I also worked for sometime in N.Delhi. I wrote two bks in Port., Cancao da Alma,1959 a book of my of  my own poems with  the Preface by the celebrated Principal Francisco Correia Afonso, and Hosanas a Terra Mae India,1968 and an English Bk, The Discovery of Goa, 1964.By the way four of my chapters,1.History of Goa, 2 Ancient Names for Goa 3.Good Friday in Goa and 4 . Carnival in Goa are on the Internet.   Put my name on  any of the chapters and you'll find them. I flew into Goa on the Day of liberation, and conotinued there till 1968 when I came to Los Angeles where I took my Master's in TV script writing. I am living in L.A. ever since.

Yr/name seems to be v. familiar to me.Do y live in England or Portugal? Warm reg., Alfred Braganza 

From: Jason Keith Fernandes <jason.k....@gmail.com>
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, December 9, 2011 6:56 PM

[Nazareth, Peter]

Dear Alfred,

I hope you know that your two chapters from The Discovery of India are in the book I edited, Pivoting on the Point of Return, an updated version of the issue I edited on Goan Literature of the Journal of South Asian Literature that came out in 1983, published last year in Goa.

Best wishes.

Peter Nazareth

---

From: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com [goa-bo...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of alfred braganza [albra...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 7:46 PM
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com

[Domnic Fernandes]

The correct Konkani word is 'honr.' It is derived from Portuguese word 'honra' (n) meaning honor.

Moi-mogan,

Domnic Fernandes
Anjuna, Goa
Mob: 9420979201

> Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Honor in Konkani
> From: lescar...@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 21:25:24 +0000
> To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com