English - Konkani Dictionary Queries

[augusto pinto]

I own 6 English Konkani Dictionaries:

English - Konkani Dictionary by A. F. Xavier Maffei 1883 (A.E.S facsimili reprint)

English - Konkani Dictionary by Gurunath Kelekar Focus, Bangalore  1994

English - Konkani Dictionary by Dr Manoharrai Sardesai G.K.A. 2003

Inglez - Konknni (Romi Lipi) Utravoll Poilo Khondd (A-F) G.K.A. 2011

Rajhauns New Generation English Konkani Dictionary by Prakash Thali ed. Damodar Ghanekar, Rajhauns, 7th ed. 2011

Modern English - Konkani Dictionary by Isidore Dantes and Joel D'Souza, Broadway, 2016.

Of these the one by Rajhauns is in the Devanagari script; and the one by 2011 Uttravoll in the Romi Script by GKA is the first volume A-F. No other volume has been published.

1) Could you let me know if there there any other English - Konkani dictionaries that you've heard of?

2) What is your opinion of these dictionaries?

Thanks.

Augusto

[Aditya Bhide]

Hello Augusto Sir

All of these dictionaries are of no use if nothing is available ONLINE.

Today's generation does everything on line/use  applications.

No one has the required patience nor the desire to browse through lengthy directions to find the words now a days.

That's my opinion.

Every language has it's on-line dictionary, except Konkani recently i heard that Modern English-Konkani dictionary has been made online, but i could not find it anywhere.

[augusto pinto]

Dear Aditya

I almost agree with everything that you say (almost - because in the absence of a good online dictionary the print dictionaries are what we have to go on)

But yes, definitely there is a desperate need for an online Konkani dictionary. In fact that dictionary should simultaneously be in all scripts.

Thankfully steps are being taken in this regard to create a software to transliterate literature in various Konkani scripts. http://www.goanews.com/news_disp.php?newsid=6749

I wonder however whether the ticklish theoretical issues involved regarding standards and dialects and scripts have been addressed in an inclusive manner. Given that Konkani has multiple dialects and multiple scripts some incredibly exciting possibilities can be envisioned - for instance - someone writing in one script being transliterated into another; and more problematically speech in one dialect being translated into another.

Having said this, answers to the questions which I had posed are still welcome.

Best

Augusto

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[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

Here is the Kokanverter. Can someone check this and tell how satisfactory its transliterations are:

http://konkanverter.com/konkanverter-ver-2-0/

दुदाळ हे दक्षिण गोवा जिल्ह्यातल्या सांगें तालुक्यातील ७६९ हेक्टर क्षेत्राचे गाव आसून २०११ च्या जनगणनेनुसार ह्या गावात ९७ कुटुंबाचे व पुराय ४४६ लोकसंख्या आसा. हांगा लागीचे शार SANGUEM ८ किलोमीटर अंतरावर आसा. हांगा २२९ दादले आनीक २१७ बायला आसा. हांगा अनुसूचित जातीचे लोक ० आसून अनुसूचित जमातीचे १५५ लोक आसात. ह्या गावाचो जनगणनेतलो स्थल निर्देशांक आसा.

Dudall he dokxinn gova jilheatlea sangem talukeatil 769 hekttor kxetrache gavo asun 2011 chea zongonnonenusar hea gavat 97 kuttumbache vo purai 446 loksonkhea asa. Hanga lagiche xar SANGUEM 8 kilomittor ontraur asa. Hanga 229 dadle anik 217 baila asa. Hanga onusuchit zatiche lok 0 asun onusuchit zomatiche 155 lok asat. Hea gavacho zongonnonetolo sthol nirdexank asa.

FN

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[Jose Fernandes]

Frederick bab,

Konkanverter does not make any sense when it comes to transliteration, as the Konkanverter is falling short of transliterating the matter correctly.

For example in above Devagari passage the word is 'सांगें' and it is transliterated as 'sangem' (Sanguem), 'गाव' is transliterated as 'gavo' (here the Devnagari word itself is wrong), etc.

In short, Konkanverter is of no use for Konknni transliterations.

Jose Salvador Fernandes  

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 9:31 PM, augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Dear Aditya

I almost agree with everything that you say (almost - because in the absence of a good online dictionary the print dictionaries are what we have to go on)

But yes, definitely there is a desperate need for an online Konkani dictionary. In fact that dictionary should simultaneously be in all scripts.

Thankfully steps are being taken in this regard to create a software to transliterate literature in various Konkani scripts. http://www.goanews.com/news_disp.php?newsid=6749

I wonder however whether the ticklish theoretical issues involved regarding standards and dialects and scripts have been addressed in an inclusive manner. Given that Konkani has multiple dialects and multiple scripts some incredibly exciting possibilities can be envisioned - for instance - someone writing in one script being transliterated into another; and more problematically speech in one dialect being translated into another.

Having said this, answers to the questions which I had posed are still welcome.

Best

Augusto

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Aditya Bhide <aditya...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[FM N]

Hey, FN, thanks for the konkanverter! New toy!

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com

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[Tensing Rodrigues]

Konkanverter is very good. In the examples given by Jose Salvador  above, I feel he has got both the instances wrong. SangUEm is a Portuguese spelling. ग sound is best represented by G. So there is nothing wrong with Sangem. How would he write आगो ? Ago or Agueo ? The point is specific cases have to be manually corrected for peculiar spellings. The problem is much more in English, where spellings and sounds do not always correlate.

You can try aksharamukha for transliteration; it is available at http://www.virtualvinodh.com/wp/aksharamukha/.

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

On 9 February 2016 at 13:13, Tensing Rodrigues <ten...@gmail.com> wrote:

Konkanverter is very good. In the examples given by Jose Salvador  above, I feel he has got both the instances wrong. SangUEm is a Portuguese spelling. ग sound is best represented by G. So there is nothing wrong with Sangem. How would he write आगो ? Ago or Agueo ? The point is specific cases have to be manually corrected for peculiar spellings. The problem is much more in English, where spellings and sounds do not always correlate.

You can try aksharamukha for transliteration; it is available at http://www.virtualvinodh.com/wp/aksharamukha/.

I find myself agreeing more with Tensing here. While the Konkanverter might not be perfect -- what is? -- it seems to hold out promise. This is also true with Google Translate (which, of course, still doesn't work with Konkani). In languages like Portuguese and English, while Google Translate is far from perfect, it allows me to perfectly understand say an email sent by someone in Portuguese. Some guessing, filling-in-the-blanks and manual correction would need to be done. But, what the heck, it's the best human solution we currently have around. Of course, it is not good enough to translate academic texts. But who knows, some day it might get there.

Don't write off the Konkanverter. Not yet!

http://konkanverter.com/konkanverter-ver-2-0/

[Damodar Ghanekar]

Tensingbab has hit the nail on the head.

Finally, he is the son of a lexicographer.

- Damodar Ghanekar

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Tensing Rodrigues <ten...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Konkanverter is very good. In the examples given by Jose Salvador  above, I feel he has got both the instances wrong. SangUEm is a Portuguese spelling. ग sound is best represented by G. So there is nothing wrong with Sangem. How would he write आगो ? Ago or Agueo ? The point is specific cases have to be manually corrected for peculiar spellings. The problem is much more in English, where spellings and sounds do not always correlate.

You can try aksharamukha for transliteration; it is available at http://www.virtualvinodh.com/wp/aksharamukha/.

2016-02-09 10:23 GMT+05:30 FM N <fatimam...@gmail.com>:

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

On 9 February 2016 at 14:39, Damodar Ghanekar <dam...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tensingbab has hit the nail on the head.

Finally, he is the son of a lexicographer.

- Damodar Ghanekar

Dambab, Give us action. Not slogans!

If you want to prove Josebab wrong, just take some (preferably longish) Devanagari page from http://gom.wikipedia.org or the Konkani Vishwakosh [1], and transliterate it into Romi. And show. FN

[1] https://gom.wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Goan_Konkani

[Damodar Ghanekar]

There are many dictionaries now.

There is ALSO a Konkani dictionary by me.

It is a LEARNER'S dictionary with grammar

of the head words being given.

Damodar Ghanekar

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

Even while we discuss dictionaries, translations, machine translations and the Konkanverter [http://konkanverter.com/], I was wondering what you all feel on this. Is it possible to translate a language (using online tools available today) without knowing that language? 

Could someone like Sandra see this page, as translated, and point out the errors/inaccuracies in the same?

Original: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateus_de_Oliveira_Xavier

Translated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateus_de_Oliveira_Xavier

Many thanks! Frederick.

[Joseph]

I  have worked with  German language  (even though I know only a few words)   in the highly specialized  world of SEO  and Google  Adwords  optimization.  The work includes keyword research, content rewriting ,  writing optimized Ads    and  several other jobs.
Besides regular work of  entering  content,   newsletter  setup & formatting  as well as maintenance of German language websites.

All this using just online tools.
Of course my work is proof read by the client  later

( I have also worked with  French ,  but since I have studied  French  in school as a  third language -  it wont apply in the current scenario)

Joseph

[augusto pinto]

In the thread [GOABOOKCLUB] Brave indeed... my good friend Frederick Noronha claims that Isidore Dantes and my old friend the late Joel D'Souza are "are very brave men indeed." This is apparently because in the Modern English - Konkani Dictionary they have compiled they have given "word equivalents for a wide range of English words"e

Let me say straight away that yes, are indeed "brave" because not only they, but anybody who attempts to compile a dictionary, any dictionary, is performing a Herculean task which requires oodles of effort and diligence. So whatever is accomplished must be praised because they usually are producing something useful and that is certainly better than doing nothing.

Next Frederick asks "Any guesses how you would translate: Yule log,  yonder, yeoman. Or yacht, yak and yam?" Well here some interesting problems arise. When compiling a concise English Konkani print dictionary then the lexicographers need to decide which words they will include and which they they will exclude. This is because the English language contains an estimated 1 million words and it would be impractical to keep on finding equivalents for everything unless one is compiling a on-line dictionary in which case that is exactly what one's aim should be in the long run.

Also one would need to consider why one requires a E-K dictionary defines. I'd think that it would be most useful for somebody who is writing Konkani reports from English. Hence one would prefer the most commonly used words over rarely used ones.

So in the case cited above here there is a need to decide whether each of the words beginning with Y that FN cites should be included or not. To cite an example personally I would have kept out 'yule log' which appears pretty rarely though I would have kept 'yule' and 'yuletide'. Just for the record the Kelekar (K)dictionary calls 'yule' 'nataalacho mausam' the Rajhauns (R) dictionary defines yule as 'nataal, Dantas-D'Souza(DD) does not include 'yule' but includes 'yuletide' as 'natalaam' and yule log as natalanchea adlea disa ghorantle ghogttecher dovorlelo ujeache buneadichem lakudd. I wonder whether anybody who does not know what 'yule log' means will be able to follow what this definition.

While not dismissing any of the dictionaries that are mentioned above as useless, I think that any future dictionary should not try to invent the wheel from scratch as the DD dictionary did.  I don't think a dictionary can claim to have a copyright on word meanings. I say this because the DD dictionary apparently did not look at the resources already available in the Maffei and Sardessai dictionaries. Maybe when Prof Borges completes the dictionary he had started with the Konkani Akademy dictionary he'll keep this in mind.

As regards including modern English words suffice to say that I wish that DD had tried to include more
used English words.

Best

Augusto

[Michael Pinto]

The translation looks pretty good.I will get Proof Avecleto Afonso in Panjim to review.He is expert in both Portuguese and Konkani and has written many books, translated The Piems of Camoes and written Itaian Konkani Dictionary

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