The ‘Dalit’ Perspective in Konkani Writings: Dale Menezes in conversation with Dadu Mandrekar
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Augusto
http://sahapedia.org/the-dalit-perspective-in-konkani-writings-in-conversation-with-dadu-mandrekar/
Dale Luis Menezes [DLM]: Sahapedia is pleased to interview a very interesting writer, poet, journalist, photographer, and an environmentalist—Dadu Mandrekar. Dadu Mandrekar has also worked in the field of social reform; he is an Ambedkarite and has also participated in various Buddhist movements. He writes as a self-conscious Dalit and has contributed a lot to Konkani. So tell us something about your writings, that is, when you started to write, what type of writings you have done, and also why you started to write.
Dadu Mandrekar [DM]: I started writing in Marathi then I turned to Konkani. But two of my books were released in Marathi. One is a poetry collection, Shapit Surya (Accursed Sun) and the other book Bahiskrut Gomantak (Boycotted Goa) is in prose. It focuses on Dalit life and the atrocities committed by upper caste people. Basically it is related to the Mahar community who live in Goa, especially in Pednem taluka, Sattari, and Dicholim. In these three talukas, in every village there is a Mahar community. I was born into that community. Now I don’t believe in any caste, creed, religion or God or anything but at that time the discriminatory culture deprived some people of everything. If Babasaheb Ambedkar was not born in India, what would have happened to India I do not know.
Now, we are the citizens of India and we are giving something to our country, though the country has not given us anything. This was the situation till 1950 when the Constitution was established. From that time we have the basic right of humanity, which was denied to us for thousands of years. And this is the process by which I was made—now I can read, I can write, I can do many things.
Whatever work I have done, it is with my money. When I came to know that the Constitution has given everything to us then I studied what it was about. I realized that the Constitution should reach each and every man’s mind in an easy manner. That is why I started to publish a magazine related to the Constitution—Prajasatta. For the last ten years I am doing this work in four languages—Hindi, English, Marathi, and Konkani and it circulates on a national level. Even a Supreme Court judge admires me but no person from Goa admires me. Why? Everyone says that there is no discrimination here, but I can tell you the caste system is everywhere.
DLM: So you are saying that one of the most important reasons—perhaps the only reason for you to write—is because of deep-seated caste prejudices that are prevalent in Goa?
DM: Definitely! Fortunately, at the age of 15 when I read the biography of Ambedkar I came to understand my life. I had to fight like Ambedkar and had to walk on Ambedkar’s way only. And by which way? By taking weapons or guns to take my right? No! When Ambedkar has shown the proper way—that is the Constitutional way—through writings and speeches or drawing or whatever it is. Use whatever medium you have to express. I got my education and started writing and realized that my best and most powerful medium is writing. At first it was in Marathi, now I can write fluently in Konkani as well.
DLM: You started writing in Marathi, so what is the reason you also started writing in Konkani?
DM: What happened is that I came to realize that Konkani language—which is the official language—
DLM: In the Nagri script…
DM: Konkani language is limited to the Konkan region. If you are in Nagpur then no one can understand. But whatever you are writing in Marathi, people can understand in Nagpur and Goa also.
I express my pain only. So whichever media has a larger audience I should use that because I represent the social reformers. I don’t want my books to be published for me to become a writer. My intention, my dream is that this whole world should be happy. In what way? There are four principles laid down in our Constitution: liberty, equality, fraternity, and justice. These are the four pillars of our Constitution and are the fundamental rights. And one has to propagate them. If I want to do something for the downtrodden people these rights should be exercised. This is why I gave priority to Marathi rather than Konkani.
Even then I write in Konkani also but I have seen that when Konkani people meet me they don’t say ‘Good article,’ ‘I have seen your article’ or ‘Congratulations’… no one says that. My writing is so different from others. The Konkani man observes untouchability and follows the caste system. That’s why they are not giving me any recognition.
DLM: So at the beginning I had introduced you as somebody who self-consciously writes and identifies himself as a Dalit. Is this a correct assessment?
DM: Yes. I am basically Dalit. But what do you mean by Dalit? Whenever you are defining ‘Dalit’, a Dalit is not an equal man. It is like suggesting that I am not equivalent to other people. I myself do not consider myself Dalit. I am a human being; I am a good citizen of India. So my writing is related to humanity. Once upon a time upper-caste people gave this name for their betterment. I am a small person, but I am one of the builders of the nation. I am writing for Dalits, but I do not consider my writing as Dalit literature. My writing considers all human aspects.
DLM: But many say that people from the bahujan samaj from Goa do not identify themselves as ‘Dalits’, although they may identify themselves as ‘bahujan’. In this I was more interested in knowing why you made the conscious choice to use ‘Dalit’ as a label.
DM: See, if you have to achieve your dreams, you have to follow some ideology. Bahujan have been deprived by the upper caste people…correct? So they don’t have any ideological base. They don’t have any ideological identity. I have my ideological identity. Basically I am an Ambedkarite, so I follow the Constitution.
I don’t believe in God. All bahujan people believe in God. But God has exploited them for thousands of years. Yet the clutches are so strong that they cannot escape them. Bahujan people do not have any ideology. That’s why if they write they don’t have any ideological identity. My ideological identity is there because I follow Ambedkar, the Constitution, Buddha, Jyotiba Phule and Savitribai Phule. These are my ideological bases. We do not even believe in any country barriers because the whole world should be happy without caste, creed and religions.
DLM: What I would like to know next from you is how your personal experiences have shaped how and what you write. And, if it is possible then I would like to know an incident in your life that you go back to for inspiration.
DM: I was brought up in Goa. I lived in my village Mandrem from my birth up to the age of 18. My village is part of the caste system. My country is also part of the caste system. So I do not want to blame them for their atrocities because atrocities are everywhere, which I faced in my childhood too. At that time they would give me something to eat by throwing it down. I had to stand not in their paddvi or veranda but in their aangan (courtyard). Why? Because of the fear of untouchability. Untouchability as a concept is so bad that I cannot describe it. Even now you can take your dog into your house, on your bed, into your kitchen but any person from the downtrodden community cannot come into your house. What is this?
So I have seen this and I have experienced these things. I have fought against this. Even tea was not served in hotels to these people. Now some incidents are there but by and large it has stopped. But untouchability has not been eradicated. It is still there in other forms. But people know that if they follow untouchability they can be thrown in prison. Because of that fear practically no one observes untouchability.
I started by working with the Industry department as a government servant. But when I was transferred I did not get shelter in any Hindu family anywhere—I faced this too. Common wells—the Mahar community or Chamar community or any other such community cannot come and draw water from them. It happens now too. Goan people beat their drums saying we are equal, we are very progressive…no, no.
I am now a learned person but if anybody comes to my village, they would not have tea at my house. How I should feel? So this is the caste system. Sometimes I feel very bad, you know. I think why should I call this my country? But Ambedkar has taught me that this is your country, you have to fight. This is my country; I have honour for my country. People believe in caste, in religion, in God…but Indian people do not believe in humanity.
Konkani writings and novels should speak of this lack of humanity. They should highlight all this: the pain of Chamar samaj, the pain of the Mahars, pain of the Bhangi samaj, pain of the bahujan samaj. Even within bahujan samaj there are several castes and each caste’s experience is quite distinct from the other castes. Why should I only do this? This is not just my pain. It is the nation’s pain.
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DM: In schools even now no teacher teaches you about Ambedkar, Savitribai Phule or Mahatma Jyotiba Phule. In my school also—Mandrem High School—no one taught this. But when I passed SSC and I got the biography of Dr. Ambedkar at the age of 16 or 17, I suddenly realized what Ambedkar was. First I used to think that Ambedkar was born in the Mahar community that’s why he was our person. But when I read Ambedkar’s biography I realized that Ambedkar was not a caste-based man, he fought for human dignity. He fought for human existence. He fought for human rights.
There was much controversy between Gandhiji and Ambedkar. Even at that time Ambedkar had asked this freedom fighter, for whom are you fighting? For swatantra? For liberty? For whom is this liberty required? For 3000 years you were the owners of this country and now you are fighting? Suppose it is liberated, who will rule? You only! What will be our share? What will be our role? So I am not with you. I want to fight for human dignity.
On one side you had Gandhiji, Vallabhbhai Patel, Nehru, Tata, Birla and on the other side Ambedkar was alone along with the poorest of the poor, that is the Mahar community. He could have said at that time take weapons and burn this country. But he has not done this. He said that I am first an Indian man. The scavengers—I should not use the word—are still carrying night soil on their heads. This should be a shame to this country. But no one is ashamed. Not even any writer or thinkers…are these brothers of ours? You have to stop it.
DLM: What happens if the writer is a Catholic but also from the lower caste?
DM: Even the Chamars who converted became Chamar Christians. Their localities are also separate. If a Mahar had converted he became a Mahar Christian. Christian brahmins would not admit them in their homes. Their work is also quite distinct, to dig graves. Sometimes we say that Christianity brought equality. But in Goa, I feel, it is not so.
Now there is a divide over Devanagari and Roman scripts…that is also very bad because you cannot do anything. First of all you are very few people, within that you are divided among two groups. The Konkani script [the Roman script] the Hindu man cannot read…If writings are to give inspiration to society it should be consciously thought through, what I should write and where I should write. It is not happening.
DLM: So what would you say…let’s confine ourselves to the literary field in Konkani, what do you feel should be done to democratize or reform this literary field? The way things are happening, what do you think should happen so that it changes—for the better?
DM: See if you want to reform society then first you have to state your ideals. As far as I am concerned, my ideals are in our Constitution. So when I am going to write, I am going to write on those principles. If any person belongs to the Christian community, then he will believe in Christianity. Or a Hindu person will believe in Hinduism. Both these people cannot give society an ideological base. When you are coming in a public space a uniform code should be there; a uniform code of ideology. When that will happen the society will rise to a higher level. And this is the fundamental duty of any writer, thinker, or poet. This is not always happening.
DLM: It is very obvious to all of us that there is a rift between the two script users in Goa: one is the Nagari—which is the official script—and the other is the Romi which has not been recognized as such. So keeping that in mind, I would like you to answer two questions: one, your own writings in Konkani are in the nagari script, so how have you thought about it when you write; and two, keeping this conflict in mind, what about the writings of other bahujan writers?
DM: See I realized my strength and my limitations and I know that I have language skills in two or three languages. I can speak and write in Konkani in Devanagri, in Hindi, and sometimes I write in English also. So why should I jump into this conflict? Unnecessarily my energy will be wasted. What space I have, what time I have, I have to utilize it in this manner. Whatever they are fighting about I do not want to bother about it. Why? Because my issue is not with language; my issue is with equality, fraternity, justice and liberty. So I have to gain it and establish my identity as a good citizen of India. I don’t want to identify as a Buddhist person or an Ambedkarite but rather as a good citizen of India.
There is a community in Goa which lives in the jungle. If they write to the Court saying the government should provide them schools, the judge would have to send a notice to the government. Because they are citizens too. But they do not know their own rights. But do we go there and tell them their rights? No! This is not happening. I am telling you, that is why I am doing multi-faceted work. But I am struggling for my existence in Goa. It is horrible. You will not believe but sometimes I do not go into someone’s home because I do not know what kind of treatment they will give me inside. I fear in my village or even the surrounding villages , they might give me a separate cup. This is an insult to human dignity and to my citizenship. It has happened. It will happen. Even high caste people are not ready to sit with me—
DLM: —Today, even today?
DM: Today also! They don’t like to sit with me in pangath—meaning a communal meal. Even now. When will we wipe out this system? There are many provisions in our Constitution but not a single writer or thinker nor any social reformer is following this. But they all are running behind the babas, religious men and such things.
DLM: In light of what you said about how you experience untouchability on a daily basis, even today, I would like to know what has been the response to the articles you have written for Sunaparant. If you could talk about it in detail…
DM: Everyone reads, but no one who meets me will say, ‘Dadu I have read your article.’ No response, good or bad. This is my experience. From all over the country people phone me but not a single Goan person…
DLM: I would like you to give a glimpse of one of your most important works–-whether in Marathi or Konkani it does not matter—but the most important thing that you have written according to you.
DM: Bahiskrut Gomantak! It is the most powerful book but they have taken care that it should not be read in large numbers in Goa. Bahiskrut Gomantak means ‘Boycotted Goa’. You know that in each and every corner the Mahar community can be found. Where? Outside the village. So why has this happened? I have tried to reflect on this in the book. This is a book that everybody has to read. I think everybody has read it but no one talks about it much because of fear.
DLM: So could you tell us what you have written in this book, Bahiskrut Gomantak?. Just introduce our viewers to what that book is since you also say that it is not being read widely or allowed to circulate widely.
DM: It is now out of print. But the living conditions of the Mahar community, their rituals, their instinct…I have highlighted everything. And how the upper caste people and upper caste culture has dominated them and perpetuated untouchability. Such stories I have highlighted there and I think that the book should be translated into English. I don’t have any time, but it should be translated into English because if it is read widely by the English readership then it will create an impact.
When I write something it creates problems for Hindu society. That’s why they are avoiding me. I am not deliberately harming them. What has hurt me I am writing about . What I have experienced I am writing.
Lastly, I have to say that unless you change your attitude the society cannot change. Now every person wears pant and shirt, every person wears spectacles, but attitudes have not changed. We are civil society only on the outside, on the inside we are uncivil; these are my comments. First, we have to consider that we are human beings and we have to help each other to the level of equality. So my work is for that, my struggle is for that, and I fight for that.
DLM: You edit two magazines, one on the environment and another on the Constitution. So, tell us first about the magazine you edit on environment.
DM: Paryavaran.
DLM: Tell us something about it. When did you start?
DM: I first published the magazine on the Constitution when I came to know that our Constitution has everything. …It gives protection to the birds, to the soil—protection is everywhere like air. Then I came to know about other things, like the environment, which relates to each and every moment of our life…I released that magazine two years ago. So every year both magazines (Prajasatta and Paryavaran) are released. But unfortunately I am not getting help from the government in the form of advertisements. So I have written a letter to the Chief Minister saying I am closing these good magazines because of lack of advertisements. So I have now taken a decision to stop these magazines. Simultaneously I have done a lot of work in photography. 80,000 photographs I have with me. Now my latest project is a birds’ video library.
We have to create an atmosphere in Goa where bahujan people, or any writer or artist can live happily, is able to express himself.
DLM: So tell us how you combine your interests in photography and writing. Is it part of the same process or is it separate?
DM: See, it is a great story! When the society has rejected me—directly or indirectly—I was searching for my friends. But where were my friends? No one was my friend. Even now nobody drinks tea with me. So this was very painful. I was searching for happiness. That happiness was given to me by plants, flowers, birds or clouds. And then I thought why I should not capture this? I started photography in the last ten years. But in ten years I have achieved good things in photography.
DLM: And you have held exhibitions?
DM: Yes. I have four exhibitions to my credit. One was inaugurated by Gulzar, from the film industry. Another was inaugurated by the Chief Minister of Goa in Pune. In a corner there was a section: My People, My Country. Those children who do not have anything, their faces I put there, and their pain I put there. So I have done something for the betterment of our society.
DLM: So photography was an escape? In a sense it was as escape but writing for you was a way to demand rights, to demand equality, to demand justice.
DM: It was not an escape for me. I have to prove that I am an artist, a writer and a good person. And there were many media in my hand: writing, photography…I established myself in them. There are many other projects also. I am writing a novel that can change many things in India. This novel’s name is Magova, which means ‘to follow’. So let us see when my project will be finished.
I started my journey at the age of 15. Madhav Gadkari, who was the editor of Loksatta and of Gomantak, he brought me at that time from Mandrem. I am the only child of my parents. Sometimes I feel that I should have had brothers or sisters. I am a traveler on the road to social reform. It could have been a hurdle. But my mother and father have given tremendous help to me, that’s why I could achieve this. Even my wife Anila—she is from Bombay—she has also given good support. Otherwise, it would not have happened.
So Dale, thank you very much. Actually, I am not running behind any publicity. I keep myself away from any publicity. But you have shown an interest, that’s why I have revealed myself. So thank you very much.
DLM: Thank you. It was a pleasure and thank you for your time. We hope that your project of equality and justice may reach far more people. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.
(This is an edited version of an audio-visual interview conducted on July 8, 2014.)
