More on the Saraswats !......and the Peshwas.

[Jose]

Not very sure IF all of the following is accurate.....even so, I am posting it here for our possible review. On a very Chilly New Year's Day in Philadelphia.....I thought I' d read a bit about this subject.

This is something I did not know. I always believed that Only those Purtuguez were bad to others. BTW:  Was this part of the recent discussion? 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daivadnya_Brahmin

The Sārasvats Brahmins deprived the Daivajnas as Mahājans of some of the temples because of the political power they once experienced.^[55]

Another conflict between Daivajñas and Vaiśyas, in 1348 in Khāṇḍepār or Khaṭegrāma, is mentioned in Khāṇḍepār copperplate. This issue was solved in Gaṇanātha temple in Khāṇḍepār.^[24][56]

Daivajñas in diaspora

There always has been some sort of antagonism rivalry between the Śeṭs and the Gaud Sārasvat Brahmins of Goa.  The trade in Goa was mainly in the hands of three classes, viz, the Śeṭs, the Gaud Sārasvat Brahmins and the Vānīs.^[52] 

The root cause of this rivalry seems to be in the competition and jealousy between the traders of the two groups for hundreds of years, which still exists but may not be in its earlier form. 

The Gaud Sārasvat Brahmins looked (sic) down upon the Daivajña and called them non-Brahmins. Daivajnas, on the other hand, called the Sarasvats fishermen and scoffers and detested them.^[53] 

These two rival groups never accepted water from the other's hands until a century back. 18th–19th century records mention conflicts between Śeṭs and Gaud Sārasvat Brahmins of Goa

The Śeṭs who had emigrated from Goa due to socio-economic reasons(during the Goa Inquisition) faced many hardships in diaspora. In the early 18th century, those had who migrated from Konkan to places like Pune were demeaned and tortured by the Peshwas, they did not have any sort of religious freedom, were divested of all priestly rites, those who performed religious rites and studied the Vedas were punished^[57] and their tongues and Śikhās were cut off.^[58] 

They were badly molested by them and tried to degrade them to a level of a shudras in an effort made by the members of the said group to be exclusively called Brahmins.^[59]

1. (52) Reginald Edward, Enthoven (1975). The Tribes and Castes of Bombay, 3 (Reprint of the 1920–1922 ed. issued under the orders of the Govt. of Bombay, printed at the Govt. Central Press, Bombay. ed.). p. 258.
2. (53) "Gomantakatil sūryapan Chatri vād" written by Dr. P. P. Shirodkar, in "Gomant Kalika"(monthly), published by Kalika Prakashan Vishwast Mandal
3. (54) Maharashtra State gazetteers, v. 24, pt. 3, Maharashtra (India), Bombay (President)., 1960, pp. 248, 257, 259
4. (55) "Gomantak Prakruti ani Sanskruti" by B. D. Satoskar, published by Shubhada Publication
5. (56) Sunthankar, B. R. (1988), Nineteenth century history of Maharashtra 1, p. 127
6. (57) Patricia, Uberoi (1996), Social reform, sexuality, and the state, p. 6
7. (58) Pawar,, Appasaheb Ganapatrao; Shahu Chhatrapati (Maharaja of Kolhapur), Vilas Adinath Sangave (1978), Rajarshi Shahu Chhatrapati Papers: 1900–1905 A.D.: Vedokta controversy 3, B. D. Khane, p. 5

[alan machado]

Hi Jose

Check up on how the Saraswats were persecuted in Kochi by the king's ministers. 

Saraswat history - gsbkerala

http://www.gsbkerala.com/gsbhistory.htm

The Gowda Saraswat Brahmins history. ... moved to the neighborhood Kingdom of Sonde, more to Canara and a few to even far offKochi in Malabar Coast.

The local Namboothiri Brahmins did not recognise Saraswats as Brahmins and were not allowed inside the Kerala temples. This was mainly because many saraswats were fish eating and some of them came to Kerala by sea. In those days crossing the sea was considered inauspicious by the Brahmins.

Sakthan Thampuran & Persecution

In 1791, shortly after ascending throne the new Raja of Cochin, known in Cochin history asSakthan Thampuran, demanded a contribution of jaggery from the Konkanies and made an injunction not to allow gathering of crops on Devaswom Kanam fields. On refusal, the Raja arrested a number of Konkani merchants and ordered them to pay customs to the king thereby violating the agreement which the Dutch had made in the year 1772. Letters were exchanged between the Raja of Cochin and the Dutch Governor, and the Dutch have determined to station a military detachement at Cherlai to protect them, and insisted on recall of Raja's guards stationed there. The relation of Konkanis with the Raja continued non-cordial. The also demanded 30,000 varahans from Cochin Tirumala Devaswom and that on refusal the trustees of the Devaswom were imprisoned. In order to get them released the Konkanies closed down all business establishments in Vypeen and Mattancherry as a protest against his high handedness.

On 12th October 1791 the leading merchants of the Konkani community were massacred including Devaresa Kini, Krishen, Goga Kamath, Manuku Shenoi and Nagendra. Again, the Raja of Cochin caused three overseers of Temple Tirumala Devasom to be put to death because they won't surrender to him any part of the treasure belonging to it, and also plundered the shops and carried away the merchant's property. The Duth on seeing the Raja's atrocities sent an army and attacked the King's Palace at Mattancherry, but were repulsed. The Raja plundered the temple of Tirumala belonging to the community and looted the wealth estimated at over Rs. 1,60,000 from the temple alone.

Alan

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[Tensing Rodrigues]

Persecution history of the world is long and diverse, and it still continues. But it is interesting to pick bits of it as per one's interest and flog them ad nauseam to create myths. A good intellectual amusement. Particularly because time metes out poetic justice. The US v/s ISIS, for instance. No body can claim a moral superiority; we all have our hate crimes - why blame it on hate, Freud and Marx may offer better explanations. 

[Tensing Rodrigues]

By the way, coming back to the core of the thread, who are Saraswats ?

[Jose]

On Jan 2, 2015, at 1:06 AM, Tensing Rodrigues <ten...@gmail.com> wrote:

Persecution history of the world is long and diverse, and it still continues. But it is interesting to pick bits of it as per one's interest and flog them ad nauseam to create myths. A good intellectual amusement. Particularly because time metes out poetic justice.(,...)  No body can claim a moral superiority; we all have our hate crimes - why blame it on hate, Freud and Marx may offer better explanations. 

RESPONSE:

Tensing is semi-totally right and Alan is not wrong.

No one here, as far as I know, has shown interest in nor attempted to create any MYTHS.

No one here has claimed Moral Superiority either.

My post, and I believe Alan's too, was merely to state that "Persecution history of the world is long and diverse, and it still continues" ie: it was NOT the legacy of anyone people.

That was hardly the impression being provided .....in recent times.

Plenty of evidence in nossa terra that Marx needed to see Freud as a patient.

jc

ps: Have avoided response to one of Tensing's statements. Do NOT wish to get diverted by unnecessary wing-nut propaganda based on inadequate understanding (mine) of the issues involved. IMHO.....the issues are NOT as simplistic as our minds want us to believe.

[alan machado]

There is more than one issue here. Some thoughts:

As far as I know, the community presently known as the Saraswats, were more well-known as Konkani-speaking brahmans originally from Goa. Buchanan (1800) refers to them as Kankanies. In Kochi in the late 1980's I was jokingly called a Konkani by the general manager of a factory with whom I was bargaining hard on the pricing of his product. Perhaps considered as rivals by the Dravida brahmans, they were never accepted as real brahmans, their fish-eating diet being proffered as the reason. Perhaps, denied access to political patronage, they developed their financial, trading, and business skills further. 

My limited reading on the history of the subject suggests brahmans from north India, from Kashmir, Punjab, Kanauj and other places, came in small groups at different times to Goa as part of the movement that made brahmans the legitimizing authority of local rulers. In the process they were given land grants which eventually developed into the ganvkari system, displacing or pushing into a subordinate position, earlier populations. This has parallels in other regions of south India. In Tamil Nadu, the rise of the Pandyas and Pallavas coincided with that of brahmans, and saw the decimation of Jainas. The Jainas migrated to Karnataka, where the process repeated itself in the Hoysalas kingdom when Bitti Deva, a Jain, became a Vaishnava.           

The homogenisation of the various groups under the "Saraswat" banner may have drawn inspiration from the similar movement that received an impetus with British and elitist Indian efforts in the 19th century to consolidate the multitude of Indian sects and devotees of numerous gods and goddesses into the "Hindu" fold. 

Perhaps someone may take up an in depth study that includes DNA profiling apart from a study of whatever records can be found in temple and other archives.

The Kochi "persecutions' was cited only to show that the Portuguese were not the only ones perfected in the art- it was quite prevalent in earlier times, and still is today in other forms. Many communities have suffered similarly at various times. My own community, forced out of a centuries-old way of living in Goa was further forced to by factors beyond its control to migrate to Kanara where it suffered again under Tipu. It is the subject of my next book which Frederick is in the process of arranging for publication shortly.   

Alan

[Tensing Rodrigues]

Thanks Alan for a very sober and balanced view on the matter. 

There are some basic questions still unanswered :

Who are Saraswats ? Why are they called Saraswats ? 

There are some simplistic explanations, which pose further questions.

Were they nomadic marauders or were they themselves fleeing from some threat ?

Were they alone ? Or were they a part of a bigger community that included non-brahmins ? If the latter is true, who were the rest ? 

What is the difference between Saraswats and Gaud Saraswats ?

There are some genetic studies available. But they are all technical. I am yet to find a study that has been translated for the use of non-technical historical researcher.

Status of Austro-Asiatic groups in the peopling of India:

An exploratory study based on the available prehistoric,

linguistic and biological evidences

VIKRANT KUMAR and B MOHAN REDDY*

[alan machado]

Thanks Tensing

I too prefer a simple and logical explanation unembellished by technical jargon.

I don't think there is any difference between Saraswats and Gaud Saraswats- Gauda just refers to their north Indian origins. There is a little booklet written by Suryanath Kamath which explains this quite nicely. How correctly, well only a deeper unbiased and professional study may throw light on that. 

I may be in Goa latter half of this month. Perhaps we could catch up?

Alan

[Teotonio R. de Souza]

Tensing, see if this link to one of my columns help. There is another review I published about "Journey of a Konkan Family" (Eka Konkani Kutumba Paravas) by Mulki R. Bhat. NY, Ajjalkani Books, 2013. I shall post a link when I find it.

https://pt.scribd.com/doc/109448292/The-Saraswats-of-Goa

[Jose]

On Jan 2, 2015, at 11:16 PM, alan machado <alan.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

"My own community, forced out of a centuries-old way of living in Goa was further forced to by factors beyond its control to migrate to Kanara where it suffered again under Tipu."

COMMENT:

That Tipu and his folks would inflict suffering upon non-Muslims was/is a given. What comes as a surprise ( perhaps, it should not) is the treatment meted out to the Saraswats by the Peshwas! 

Even so.....would Alan please elaborate on the "factors beyond its control." Or is the answer in the upcoming book ?

BTW: based on reading and a cursory review of articles re DNA, it is unlikely that the Saraswats originated in North India. It is more likely that North India was a stop-over from further NNW.

It is also possible (mere speculation on my part) that they were envied (like the Jews) for their business prowess.  Hardly likely that Religion per se was the reason for the migration - esp as those who migrated are Catholics to this day.....and retain their Portuguese surnames. ( I know of some who have reverted to surnames like Prabhu, Kamat and Rao ....and the reasons for that ) 

After all, Money makes friends and enemies. Just ask the Uganda Asians.

jc

[Tensing Rodrigues]

Thanks for the links. There seems to be relatively more information (naturally) on Saraswats post-Goa. i am interested in history of Saraswats pre-Goa. Any clue/suggestion will be helpful.

Tensing

[Jose]

Wonder if this will help

jc

http://www.sciencedirect.com/.../pii/S0002929713003248

Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India: The...

CELL.COM

[Tensing Rodrigues]

I would be extremely obliged if i could have a look a the articles re DNA referred to in your post. I am very interested on this history of saraswats, for that would help unravel many enigmas of Goan identity..

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[Jose]

Dear Tensing,

If I were on the quest of understanding 'Goan Identity', in the purest and narrowest sense, I would look at the people who (we can reasonably assume ) are the 'original-most' inhabitants of Goa ie the Kunbis, Gavdis et, not the Saraswats.

Once I reach home base (in another 4 weeks), I will post the research papers - one at a time - with my comments. PN: I am NOT a geneticist but, I could claim to know a few bits of genetics.

In the mean time, I invite you to ponder on the following:

1: what is the real meaning of the term 'Brahmin'?

2: how did people (say the Chitpawans and the Saraswats) come to be classified as 'Brahmins'?

3: who are the Ranes of Goa?

4: If the Kings are expected to be powerful, How come the Brahmins reached the top of the civil order?...(..or, for that matter.....some of the Popes of times gone by )

5: what role did Money play in the Movement and Treatment of Saraswats by others?

6: were there sufficient Portuguese-Portuguese in Goa (Adlea Tempar) to persecute 22,000 Saraswat families?

7: were any of the Saraswats set up by others ....for money?

8: was Money / Land a factor in Sati? IF NOT, how come Men did not do the 'Purush'?

ps: The more I think about it......The more I am led to believe that most battles in this world are about Land, Woman and Wealth...... Any reason it wasn't so Adlea Tempar?

jc

[Santosh Helekar]

I know a little bit about DNA and genetics because I have studied them
as part of my postgraduate curriculum and conducted scientific
research using recombinant DNA technology in the past. Some time back
I had posted in some other Goan forum a summary of the findings of the
genetics research paper that Josebab Colaco has referred to below. I
am posting that summary again here for your information:

The latest study by the same authors (Moorjani et al.) expands the
data set to include 73 groups, although none of which is taken from
the Goan population. The 2013 study to which I am
referring is entitled:

"Genetic evidence for recent population mixture in India" by Moorjani
P, Thangaraj K, Patterson N, Lipson M, Loh PR, Govindaraj P, Berger B,
Reich D, and Singh L. in American Journal of Human Genetics (2013, Sep
5;volume 93, issue 3, pages 422-438).

The salient findings from this most recent study are as follows:

1. The population of India, including all castes and tribes, is very
homogeneous with thorough admixture of ancestral north Indians
(Indo-Europeans) and ancestral south Indians (Dravidians).

2. The admixture took place between 1900 and 4200 years ago before the
institution of caste-based endogamy i.e. marriage strictly within the
caste or tribal group.

3. The caste system is therefore relatively recent with an origin
around 1900 years ago.

4. Ancestral north Indians and ancestral south Indians lived in or
near India for a long time before 4000 years ago without mixing.

5. There was little or no admixture between population groups in India
after 1900 years ago.

6. The findings also confirm the fact the ancestral north Indian
components of the genetic make up of Indians are related to those of
west Eurasians. The specific groups from the latter category that this
study tested were European Americans, Basque, Georgians and Iranians.

7. The study therefore also confirms the idea of Indo-European
migration into India, although the actual date of migration could not
be established by this study.

8. The period of admixture estimated by this study i.e. 1900 - 4200
years before the present has been recognized by other studies
(archeological and scriptural) as a period of great transformation,
involving deurbanization of the Indus civilization i.e. abandonment of
the cities in the Indus valley, substantial changes in burial
practices, and the first appearance of Vedic religious practices and
Indo-European dialects.

Cheers,

Santosh

*****************************************************************
No offense meant. But let the chips fall where they may.
*****************************************************************

[Tensing Rodrigues]

Thanks a lot Santosh for the simple summary of the genetics paper.

Tensing.

[alan machado]

Yes, Jose, a chapter is devoted to the exodus from Goa. Briefly, the conversion policy resulted in Christians (at least the majority of those who migrated) deriving their living from the land. With the Dutch offensive beginning 1600, Goa lost its revenue from overseas trade and customs duties. The only other source (major) was land taxes. The pressure on the ganvkaris increased with the incursions and eventual invasion of Maratha forces. This is very clear from Teotonio's work, as also Cunha Rivara's book on the 1787 revolt which includes interesting annexures on the tremendous pressures faced by the ganvkars. I doubt the Inquisition had a major role in migrations, though it was a much feared institution.

    

The story is a little different for the non-Christian brahmans who migrated. They remained in business and trade. Their numbers appear to be considerably less. In Kanara, Christians largely worked the land.

Name changes do occur in the history of families. We were Prabhus in Aldona, then Macedos. However around 1880 the name changed to Machado. The Macedo name is totally forgotten, the Prabhu name was remembered, as was the fact that we were ganvkars. I found the Macedo name in the birth registers at Omzur, Rosario and Milagres in Mangalore. My children have been named Machado Prabhu. Now two of them are abroad, theirs names are too long and have been shortened, and they are known as Prabhus. I in India am still a Machado, though I add Prabhu (for my books) in brackets (not having been baptized so). It is really a matter of IDENTITY. It links me to an ancestral past which I do not want to lose, as does Machado. To me both names are important. It has nothing to do with caste or elitism. I don't know if I sound convincing, but there it is.

Re Tipu's reasons for the Captivity, I believe much of what has been written is incorrect or incomplete. I offer a new interpretation while stating clearly why I do not agree with many of the earlier versions. I believe it had everything to do with the process of Tipu establishing his legitimacy among his Muslim court elite on whom he depended. It is difficult to elaborate much more here.

Re the Peshwa treatment of the Saraswats, the Marathas desecrated the famous Sringeri temple in 1791. Many similar instances of temple destruction by "Hindus" have been recorded.  Eaton offers a convincing explanation for this. I have also tried to explain this in my book. Our confusion arises from clubbing, like the census of 1891, the numerous castes, sects, and worshippers of India's multitudes of gods into one category- Hindus. Viewing such instances as statements of power and authority, rather than as being occasioned by religious concerns, helps to understand the real reasons. 

Do read my book; it discusses some other matters that you have raised in this thread. I welcome your comments.  

    

 

          

     

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[Jose]

On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:06 AM, alan machado <alan.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

"1787 revolt which includes interesting annexures on the tremendous pressures faced by the ganvkars. I doubt the Inquisition had a major role in migrations, though it was a much feared institution.

    

The story is a little different for the non-Christian brahmans who migrated. They remained in business and trade. Their numbers appear to be considerably less. In Kanara, Christians largely worked the land."

Dear Alan,

Thank you for your gracious post. 

I will certainly purchase your book and read it. I will then give you my view which you my critique too. 

I have a number of DeSouza (Kamath), Pinto (Rao) and Fernandes (Prabhu) friends whose children I assisted and trained professionally. I am happy to see them in settled positions in the UK and US.  While their parents retained their 'Portuguese' surnames but the children's surnames were changed before they entered Grade 10. Something to do with " not wanting to be specifically noticed prior / during the Professional programs"; Not very sure if the pressure (self-felt) was as great as that during Bandaranaike's Sri Lanka or that by young Indian girls born and brought up in the US and speaking with the US accent ....who had to learn the Indian accented English...in order to survive the courses in Karnatanka. ( BTW: when/if  the present dispensation is replaced in Karnataka, I can envisage a further push for Karnataka Catholics in India to revert to their pre-conversion surnames )

In difficult times, taxes get imposed on those who (the authorities believe ) can and should pay them. I should know. My forebears ( reportedly) faced the same issue. They improvised by introducing a second crop. ( Even in today's world, new taxes get imposed and everybody freaks out. But, one learns to role with the punches and not just start a revolt)

Till later

jc

[alan machado]

Attached is a summary of Swapna Saraswata written by a student who has read it in Kannada. 

I might add it has four parts comprising 34 chapters. Only the story in the 1st part (10 chapters) is located in Goa. The 2nd (5 chapters) concerns the journey to Kanara, and the other two parts are of life there.

Alan

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