Re: Arundhati Roy: The Doctor and the Saint

[Jeanne Hromnik]

Dear Zarina

Many thanks. Did you know they defaced Gandhi's statue in Port Elizabeth last year, along with others like Rhodes'? I wondered why although I'm not sure "they" really knew what they were doing or why!

I've been reading Sana, with mixed emotions. Haven't yet got a copy of the book.

I expect you've read Vassanji's And Home was Kariakoo

http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/F7j3VLkatf2mPQfDVXdZLL/Excerpt-And-Home-Was-Kariakoo-by-MG-Vassanji.html

I love this para:

Many from my generation left during those heady 1960s and ’70s of the last century, soon after independence. Most went away to the United Kingdom, Canada, and the United States, and some have returned for visits, but few that I know with that intensity of emotional reclamation. Of mad belonging. Some of those who left never returned, having made good their escape, packing their bitterness with them—bitterness at the politics, the revenge racism, and the socialist policies and broken official promises that drove them out; others left simply to fulfill the colonial dream, finding their way to what had been the centre of their universe—London, now simply the West. Whence this sense of place in me, I have often wondered. To call it nostalgia is too easy; I recall harrowing moments from a deprived childhood, as well as happy ones. I don’t long for the crowded bedroom of my childhood, the despair of a single mother on the brink of breakdown; they are gone. Dar es Salaam, where I grew up, has changed; Nairobi, my birthplace, has changed. I have seen both these cities which were my home metamorphose during numerous revisits—populations multiplied, violence increased, beauty and serenity reduced to squalor. Toronto, where I live and have made my home, has changed too; it has become friendly and cosmopolitan, its urban spaces look renewed, as they do in the American cities I have known: Boston, Philadelphia, New York. But, to use a metaphor, returning to the original home either one can opt to observe how everyone has aged and everything is no longer the same, and how ultimately, predictably disappointing it all is; or one sees the familiar and the dear in the older, broken faces. One has memory, and attachment and commitment, one is aware of change and history as it applies to everything.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 9:18 AM, Jeanne Hromnik <jeanne...@gmail.com> wrote:

This may bear on the subject of how India is represented by Indians outside India vis-a-vis Western perceptions!

Jeanne

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Arundhati Roy: The Doctor and the Saint

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrN8PgZzc6k

 

 

 

 

[Jeanne Hromnik]

[augusto pinto]

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Jeanne Hromnik <jeanne...@gmail.com> wrote:

This may bear on the subject of how India is represented by Indians outside India vis-a-vis Western perceptions!

Jeanne

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Dear Jeanne

I don't quite follow what you want to say and if you could elaborate it may be interesting. But perhaps it may be even more interesting if we could discuss the youtube link you sent.

 

Arundhati Roy: The Doctor and the Saint

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrN8PgZzc6k

Arundhati Roy's speech above is based on her Introduction to the 'controversial' Navayana edition Bhimrao Ambedkar's Annihilation of Caste. http://navayana.org/product/annihilation-of-caste/ In this link you will find a further link to the full text of Arundhati Roy's in http://www.caravanmagazine.in/essay/doctor-and-saint

AoC is a brilliant intellectual annihilation of the caste system. I would very seriously suggest that everybody should read the text of AoC which is freely available on the Internet. T is one of the versions http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/ambedkar/web/index.html

Coincidentally I've been attending a fascinating ongoing lecture series in the Goa University VRP Bakibab Borkar Chair for Political Economy conducted by Prof. Satish Deshpande where AoC is one of the basic texts.

https://www.unigoa.ac.in/vrpp/caste-today-ideals- and-realities-where a-workshop-and-1-credit-course

Augusto

 

 

 

 

 

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[augusto pinto]

Since we are on this topic, recently a former Goan grandee and author, who delivers edifying sermons to Goans from outside India, brilliantly tried to justify the caste system in the local media using the charmingly rustic example that no Brahmin man can stand a Chardo woman's Konkani!

I tried to detect if there was any trace of irony in his assertions and I'm glad to report there was none. I'm sure all of you and especially his ardent disciple Frederick will appreciate the style and verve of the relevant passages as he pontificated using former Indian President S. Radhakrishnan's The Hindu View of Life as a crutch:

Quote: "Radhakrishnan explains that despite modern views about caste dis-criminations and exclusions, those were introduced as a Hindu solution to large-scale population influxes.

Two main characteristics of a caste are the practices of social isolation through com-mensality and banning of intermarriages. Viewed without modern prejudices about social exclusion, freedom to choose a marriage partner, freedom to eat with whomever one chooses and whatever one wishes, the refugees generally dislike their women being taken over by strangers or being forced to eat what they are not used to. The caste ensured these protections and allowed the immigrants to lead their lives peacefully, contributing to the host society with their skills. The castes were also professional schools which transmitted those skills from generation to generation.

One has to agree that many of the exagger-ations and abuses in the past practices need to be reviewed and changed... Motivat-ing through education rather than imposing by law need to be the instruments of a healthy change. But even there we may see hurdles difficult to bypass, such as the intermarriages of Konkani speaking Goans of different castes... Marriage is not just between two individuals. It also links families, and marriage outside one's family sought and ensured this social enrichment. Marriage is also to enjoy a pleasant life together, not an occasion for con-stant irritations day in and day out. I doubt a Brahmin used to taka will bear for long hearing a Chardo wife's teka. This is only a sample of linguistic undertones that will not vanish with love and passion." Unquote.

Incidentally if anyone would like to know what Ambedkar thought about Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan's views in The Hindu View of Life then please turn to Sec 19 [8:] and [9:] of http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/ambedkar/web/index.html

Augusto Pinto

P.S.: In my last post I should have written D. B. Bandodkar Chair for Political Economy and not Bakibab Borkar Chair. Mea Culpa.

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

Dear Gusto, You're free to disagree with anyone. But please avoid snide pot-shots and ridicule while discussing ideas and issues here. 

-- former Goan grandee

-- who delivers edifying sermons to Goans from outside India

-- brilliantly tried to justify the caste system

-- style and verve of the relevant passages

-- he pontificated

What I can read in brief is: "I don't like Dr TRdeS". Why? Whatever the reason, my suggestion: please settle scores elsewhere, even if you try hard to disguise it as literary criticism here :-) 

To my mind, the above are gratuitous, loaded terms which hardly add value considering that the rest of us have spent time reading it. Or that the retaliation will come sooner or later. Better to have a fair discussion, rather than a slanging match methinks. FN

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[augusto pinto]

My dear FN,

You forgot to mention "ardent disciple Frederick"

What you have done is to simply repeat what I have said while identifying one particular person which is what I didn't do, thereby deflecting attention away from the issue. But that was your intention in the first place wasn't it, as for you some people just cannot do wrong?

If you're all that serious on discussing ideas please do so and I'd love to hear what you have to say on the issue.

Bah!

Augusto

[Jose]

On Feb 16, 2016, at 1:37 AM, augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My dear FN,
> You forgot to mention "ardent disciple Frederick"

My dear FN,
I am sure we are going somewhere with this 'debate'.
jc
( an ardent disciple of Pinto-Sir )

[Jeanne Hromnik]

Dear Augusto

All I meant was that Westerners see Gandhi as a saint, largely because of David Attenborough's film (made with the full cooperation of the Govt of India) in which (as Arundhati Roy comments) Ambedkar is not even given a walk-on part. It seems to me, howver, that Indians abroad are part of a healthy debate on perceptions of India.

Sadly, only Indian writing in English is accessible to 'us'. I remember there was talk of a project to make the 'best books' written in Indian languages available in English, but I guess nothing came of it.

I was reminded of your profound interest in caste when listening to Arundathi Roy, but she's a lot prettier than you!

Or me, for that matter ...

:)

Jeanne

[augusto pinto]

Dear Jeanne who writes:

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Jeanne Hromnik <jeanne...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Augusto

All I meant was that Westerners see Gandhi as a saint, largely because of David Attenborough's film (made with the full cooperation of the Govt of India) in which (as Arundhati Roy comments)

The debate about Gandhi was around for long but yes the 'halo' of the Mahatma was a dampener for rational debate. However now with the saffron right-wing in power, things may change and we can see this in the way Gandhi's murderer Nathuram Godse is being turned into a saint.

While Gandhi's views on caste were abominable and Arundhati Roy rightly tears him apart on this ground, I think that he was a creature of his times and this unfortunately was something he was not capable of transcending. However he at least tried to be inclusive whether it was with regard to caste or religion.

I too was at first shocked reading about Gandhi on caste, but I have since come to believe that he was an extremely complex man and his achievements on several other fronts was nothing short of amazing. His thoughts on Satyagraha and non-cooperation and his ability to lead a mass movement with such 'weapons' is one of the great achievements of modern times.

He may have been wrong (as on caste) but there is no denying his honesty and sincerity; and his probity in not only his public but even his private life are truly awe-inspiring in a world where politicians all over the world have sleazy reputations when it comes to money. There is much more to Gandhi than this but let it be for now...  

 

Ambedkar is not even given a walk-on part. It seems to me, howver, that Indians abroad are part of a healthy debate on perceptions of India.

If you're talking about Arundhati, remember that the debate on Gandhi and caste was very much an Indian debate. Her video is a part of her world tour to promote the Navayana annotated edition of Ambedkar's Annihilation of Caste.

 

Sadly, only Indian writing in English is accessible to 'us'. I remember there was talk of a project to make the 'best books' written in Indian languages available in English, but I guess nothing came of it.

I guess the lack of good translators has to  do with this. There's a chicken and egg situation here as good translations aren't often commissioned because there does not appear to be the demand; or if published the marketing isn't good.

I was reminded of your profound interest in caste when listening to Arundathi Roy, but she's a lot prettier than you!

Thank you for the compliment! Of course apart from our ages which are the same, there is no comparison between her brilliant, erudite, fiery and yet sensitive writing and mine; but still I'm flattered that you think it worth comparing me to Arundhati Roy - even if humorously 😌
 

Or me, for that matter ...

:)

I think you're too modest here Jeanne and you're absolutely stunning in your own fashion!

Cheerio

Augusto

[Selma Cardoso]

Hear, hear Augusto. That's exactly how I feel about Gandhi too. The lamb is being torn to shreds by both India's commie left and its retarded right.

On another note, very briefly, Arundhati was tore to shreds herself by the dalit intellectual community for having been chosen to write about Ambedkar. I don't think in the circles of RoundTable India, she will ever be forgiven for having usurped what they claim is their sole right to represent Ambedkar. Only a lived experience can hence articulate on their behalf or on Ambedkar's.

Which brings us right back to the question of, who can rightfully represent a thought, an idea, a culture, a historical past, an anthropological observation, a religion, a politics, a political personality? We can go on and on disenfranchising people on one or the other pretext or we can simply accept that it's an opinion, a study, a thought and no one should have monopoly on what to express and when. One can always have the privilege of rebuttal. This, in my opinion, is being inclusive.

Best wishes,

selma

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From: augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com>
To: "goa-bo...@googlegroups.com" <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 February 2016, 17:08
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Arundhati Roy: The Doctor and the Saint

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

On 17 February 2016 at 22:38, augusto pinto <pint...@gmail.com> wrote:

The debate about Gandhi was around for long but yes the 'halo' of the Mahatma was a dampener for rational debate. However now with the saffron right-wing in power, things may change and we can see this in the way Gandhi's murderer Nathuram Godse is being turned into a saint.

As a matter of detail, the critique of Gandhi -- from both the Left and the Right -- has been around for some time now. Agreed, both critique him for entirely differing reasons, and the Rightwing critique appears to me to be somewhat shallow.

With Arundhati (her arguments are far, far better too!) coming on the scene things have reached another level. She has done a lot of homework on the subject, and her arguments strike me as convincing. YouTube helps to take the 'full-text' of her talks to a worldwide audience.

Her views largely go in tandem with those of the non-party Left,

Besides her speeches, this debate has also been continued in magazines like the EPW, a somewhat academic journal which is a delight to read, and full of ideas. (Check it online at http://epw.in )

The Gandhi-Left clash is as old as the hills (or, rather, the political hills which have existed since the times of both of these ideologies and their clashes over their approaches). In the Delhi JNU protests, people like Kanaiya Kumar (the student leader arrested and charged with sedition, an old colonial British legacy law!) have spoken about a Blue-Red alliance, between Dalits and the Left. While the latter has had quite a poor legacy of taking up caste issues in India (except, in a way, perhaps the Socialists under Lohia and, more recently, some strands of the Maoists), in a post-Mandal India, there seems to be some rethinking on the same.

Below is a reflection of the debate about Gandhi, as seen from a radical perspective, in an international publication. This shows that it's not only the Right that has been critical of him.

http://isj.org.uk/gandhi-the-man-behind-the-myths/

In India and elsewhere Gandhi has been criticised for being “anti_modern”, a hardline traditionalist, a blackmailer who used fasting as a means of getting his way; on the left he is seen as the “mascot of the bourgeoisie” and anti working class. There are elements of truth to all these accusations but it is important to bear in mind that bourgeois nationalism is far from straightforward, much less pure, and fundamentally flawed. Indian nationalism was no exception.

Arundhati Roy takes the debate much further, and with a lot of depth, in my view. I believe that all national leaders too should not be above debate. Celebrating someone's assassination is one thing, but questioning their politics is certainly valid and required. 

To end on an on-topic note: did you know that Arundhati Roy almost ended up with a Goan connection?

FN

[Eugene Correia]

As for Arundhati, Fred said "almost ended with a Goan connection." As far as I know and it has not been denied by both parties, she was married to a  Goan, an up and coming architect then, Gerard da Cunha. She lived in Goa, and perhaps taught aerobics. Don't know for sure (maybe Google can help but that's Fred's forte 😂)

The Dalits have different view of Gandhi, and I was given a photocopied book (forget the name), written by a Dalit, in which Gandhi was slammed. I think the book circulated underground among well-known Dalits, and this person was in charge of Dalit movement in Canada and has now gone to work at the UN.

I have seen the short film, Jai Bhim Comrade, by the famous documentary maker Anand Patwardhan. I also had a long interview with him when he came for the Toronto Film Festival many years. No doubt Anand is left-leaning, it brought out the atrocities faced by the Dalit community.

Anand also made the remarkable short film, Ram ke Naam (In the Name of Goa), a runaway success among the "subaltern" (Fred's favourite word) people. Anand is more faithful to the cause of Dalits and has is more accepted by them. 

Arundhati's heart may not lie with the Dalits, but she's there to espouse causes that has social impact. Her fame gives her licence but I don't think the Dalits care much for what she says. They have their own people to carry forward the community's cause.

When the Dalits rose, sort of in arms, in Mumbai in the 70s, the showed they were united in their fight for equality and social mobility. I watched many of them saying lot of things.

As for Gandhi, one can't put him into a bracket. As Augusto says, Gandhi was "complex". Having read his books and also books on him by foreign authors and seen the movie, Gandhi deserved to be immortalised. Whether one likes him or subscribes to his way of living and political thinking, Gandhi's Hinduism was much more to his religion and faith than Veer Sarvarkar. 

One book I read Gandhi: Judith Brown, an internationally-known historian, who taught at Oxord and had the distinction of being born in India. She and many others have tried to pierce the soul of Gandhi and none seem to be able to pigeon-hole him. 

If today, Gandhi is assailed by the far-right wing of the BJP and feel that Nathuram Godse did well by getting rid of him, there's a conspicuous attempt by this group with the Hinduvta brigade to smear Gandhi's name. The politics of British India and in the context of the nationalist movement need to be looked different than the present times. For some, Gandhi may be relevant till today and for some he's a relic of he past.

Eugene

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[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا‎]

Not so much a question of whether Gandhi is relevant today or not, but rather the political (and social) role he played in his times. 

Anand Patwardhan is a powerful film maker, and some of his movies (made during the Emergency, called Prisoners of Conscience, if not mistaken) influenced a generation of young people. Likewise, his movie on the homeless of Mumbai, Hamara Shahar (Our City).

In my view, despite the attempts by some to discredit her, Arundhati Roy has been consistently outspoken in her support of the weaker and marginalised. Added to this, she crafts her arguments very well and does her fact-collection impeccably.

I don't think Arundhati was "married" to Gerard da Cunha, but this much is what has been said in the public domain:

http://www.rediff.com/news/apr/05roy2.htm

She will concede that she was living with Gerard da Cunha, now a celebrated architect while she was studying architecture. ''It became clear to me that I would never become an architect,'' she recalls. ''Can you see me going to DDA offices to get my plans cleared?''

About: Ram ke Naam (In the Name of Goa) -- Eugene probably meant In the Name of God. The more accurate translation might be In Ram's Name (this was in the aftermath of the movement to build a Ram Temple in Ayodhya).

FN

[Eugene Correia]

Goa on my mind... playing hard on me. Thanks for the correction. Fingers are moving faster than the brain. Typos are my favourite. Long live the Typo

Eugene